Hey, I did not build my engine, so this info may not be very usefull. If you remember I messaged you bout my overbore? well the first clue I got to getting it straight was the machine shops invoice I have has the part numbers for the JE piston rings that they used. I thought I had an overbore of 30 thou, remember, well in quotations for the piston rings, it say's the part# and then "20 over" so I called and confirmed that - 1 yes I got a 20 and not a 30, and 2 the rings were ordered from JE for a .020 overbore. The part# isJEP J614F4-3642 I will ask my builder tomorrow if you can order the same ones but with a .030 over. I know you are using the 96 style piston right.
t76, You just gave me an idea. Can you do me a huge favor? Can you either contact the shop who built your motor, or let me know how I can get in contact with them? The idea is if they built your motor, then they must know what the endgap for the piston rings should be? Nobody knows, and until I find out, I'm stuck cuz I'm not gonna gamble with such a critical component. Thanks in advance.
Well, I considered it, but there's a lot of things telling me that Total Seals are a $%^&*()ing $%^*() to do correctly. Takes a lot of filing and fitting, and precision. They can be done (Total seal makes a 2nd ring for our motors that works for early and late models), but doing them right takes finesse if I'm reading right. My shop told me that they'll do Total Seal if a customer demands them, but refuse to be held responsible if the engine later fails or whatnot. He went on to say that of 12 or 16 people he remembers installing them for, only ONE of them had a definite positive opinion about any performance benefit. Sure they work, he says, but money is better spent elsewhere.
I'm hoping that I can simply drop my rings in as they come from the box. Hotrodders rule of .004" per inch of bore for the ring gap on the top and .003" of gap per inch for the second ring seem to exactly match up to what the rings are already set at. If I can confirm that I can ignore GM factory spec for ring gap (which has a monster gap of .022 - .032" on my second ring), I'm going to drop mine in and call it a day. Gotta make sure first!
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12:18 AM
t76racer Member
Posts: 233 From: Salt lake, Utah, Salt Lake Registered: Nov 2004
Sure Blue, My shop is "Temples Maschine" they are a very reputable shop. I was guided away from a set of total seal rings too. Considering the motor is for the street and the cost of a custom set since they already checked with "Total Seal" and they don't stock them. I have JE Pistons, Pro Seal Premium Sportsman Series Rings, top is Ductile Iron with "Plasma-Moly" inlays. Second ring, Taper faced reverse torsional second ring and you can get a "gapless second ring with these" although I didn't. Check out the JE site very informative even has instal;lation guides and filling instructions.
Anyway's call Temples I will PM you with my contacts name.
Well, I considered it, but there's a lot of things telling me that Total Seals are a $%^&*()ing $%^*() to do correctly. Takes a lot of filing and fitting, and precision. They can be done (Total seal makes a 2nd ring for our motors that works for early and late models), but doing them right takes finesse if I'm reading right. My shop told me that they'll do Total Seal if a customer demands them, but refuse to be held responsible if the engine later fails or whatnot. He went on to say that of 12 or 16 people he remembers installing them for, only ONE of them had a definite positive opinion about any performance benefit. Sure they work, he says, but money is better spent elsewhere.
I'm hoping that I can simply drop my rings in as they come from the box. Hotrodders rule of .004" per inch of bore for the ring gap on the top and .003" of gap per inch for the second ring seem to exactly match up to what the rings are already set at. If I can confirm that I can ignore GM factory spec for ring gap (which has a monster gap of .022 - .032" on my second ring), I'm going to drop mine in and call it a day. Gotta make sure first!
I think i would definately ignore gm spec on that..
well I didn't know about Total Seal being such a pita. Good to know. I was trying to figure out if someone got a metric size and an imperial size mixed up or maybe not defined but I don't really see how it could happen. You have to make a lot of mistakes with conversions of numbers to get .022 to become .005 or so.
gp
Would be interesting to see some piston and ring p/n's????
It's always one thing or another with this project! I installed pistons today and severely gouged the hell out of my #3 rod journal in the process. Not like a small ding, but a series of BIG, DEEP divots in my otherwise perfect crank! One of my buddies came over while I was in the middle of engine assembly, and didn't take the hint that I was busy. So I was trying to concentrate while assembling an engine and holding a conversation. I didn't check where the journal was before tapping the next piston in, and next thing I know, the crank is wrecked.
I did manage to take some pictures of the installation process, and the damage that occured, of course. Now you guys can laugh at my mistakes (and hopefully, learn). Check it out:
Repeat after me: "MAKE SURE THE CRANK IS AT BOTTOM DEAD CENTER!" AGAIN: "MAKE SURE THE CRANK IS AT BOTTOM DEAD CENTER!" Say it 5 more times for good measure. Make sure that you have rod boots fitted over the rod bolts. If you don't have them, use piece of thick fuel line instead. Don't ding that journal! This is a touchy point with me today... http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v249/pyromaniacal/TDC%20Swap%20Project/Engine%20Rebuild/Assembly/Hammer_Time.jpg
Remove the cap, thoroughly lube the bearing with assembly lube, and then torque to spec. You're done! Rotate the crank a whole revolution to make sure you don't have any binding, etc. Then repeat for the next cylinder.
That's what I WAS doing anyways until I forgot to put the crank at BDC. When I tapped the piston in, it didn't even have an unusual amount of resistance, and there was NO metal on metal "clank" noise to warn me. I'm willing to bet that the crank is done for, as it's not entirely likely that grinding to the next undersize will remove the imperfections, and the idea of putting a dinged (but polished) crank into my engine really pisses me off. So I'm not sure where I'm going from here.
I'm not sure if I can continue any further with this whole thing. It'll be a miracle if I can fix that crank, and even then, it's literally only a matter of time before something even more critical goes wrong. I'm really not sure what direction this will go now, but the machine shop should tell me what shape the crank is in tomorrow. We shall see.
Oh Ouch, that really sucks! I feel your pain, no laughing here. Is it too deep to have the journal machined? Don't be discouraged, you have been doing an excellent job and I know everyone really appreciates your thread. Look on the bright side, it can only get better from here on in!
Nolan
[This message has been edited by Sourmug (edited 06-28-2005).]
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01:39 PM
DILYSI Member
Posts: 69 From: Indianapolis, IN Registered: Sep 2002
Cranks can be repaired; I rebuilt a honda civic engine that my sister ran dry of oil and spun a rod bearing. The dealer wanted a considerable amount for a new crank (more than I ended up spending on parts for the whole rebuild). A local engine shop spray welded the journal up and re ground it back to standard size for $85.00; I could not tell anything had been done to it and it had a big deep nasty gouge in it that went half way around the journal. That engine ran for well over 60,000 miles of hard running after the rebuild. Dont give up, look on it as a learning experience; that will be one mistake you wont make again.
maybe get a prof opinion from a really good performance machine shop; it look like it is right in the centre....... that is also where the oiling hole is, so part of that 'swept area' is already compromised (reduced). Some crank bearings have a groove all the way around in the very centre, too. What I mean is that you MIGHT be able to polish that and put bearings in and it might not be as bad as you think, if the machine shop thinks it isn't that bad. Then again it may have to be ground and you do new bearings....... and that isn't all bad either. Racing teams will (well, USED to..) undersize all journals right away to reduce bearing speed and friction area.
Somebody was joking that the shop would say "Aah, that'll buff right out". Guess what they said? Polish to remove the high spots and use it as it is. I guess that's what I should do, but it still doesn't seem right. The gouge isn't at TDC or BDC, luckily.
I'm sure that another .010" grind would still leave dings in there. I forget how much the maximum undersize on these things are, I see parts available for .040"/1mm. I may just be completely anal about this thing, but the idea of dropping a dinged up crank into an engine that's otherwise like new down to the last bolt really, really pisses me off. I was actually wondering if a crank can be re welded up and then reground just earlier - can it really be done? I'd like to avoid getting another crank, and requiring yet another balance job. My only concern is that the Honda crank maaaaay be steel (easy to weld), where our cast iron crank may be harder to weld up. Any more information?
[Edit]: Who woulda guessed that I'd spend my 500th post mourning a gouged up TDC crank?
[This message has been edited by Blue Shift (edited 06-28-2005).]
FLAME SPRAYING (as it's called) was invented during WWII to save cranks(and caps, almost anything bearing related) on Merlin and Rolls Royce engines, got an old school Hydroplane team in your area? If it's good enough for airplanes, I'd try it. Basicly it's like powder coating only using molten steel. I had an aluminum coating sprayed onto a set of Duff's headers for an old bobtail project about 15 yrs. ago. Aluminum oxide is self sealing and prevents surface rust, not much help for the inside though! It's bonded on a molecular scale to what ever surface. If dissimilar alloys stick like that alum did to mild steel, than steel to steel would be bulletproof (so to speak). ....... IMHO ..... milage may vary ..... Anyway, it can't hurt to explore that option.
Well, the guy at the machine shop took down the high spots, polished it and insists that it'll work fine without any negative effects. He told me a story about a race motor that spun a bearing and put a "big $%^&(ing gouge" into one of the journals. For some reason he didn't explain, he polished it thoroughly, reassembled the motor and the car went on to race a whole extra season - all on a badly gouged crank. And he even did all the polishing and cleaning for free - what a nice guy. It doesn't look so bad with the high spots removed.
So I got all the way to piston #5 when the plastigage indicated noticeable taper - Damn it! So I pulled the bearing and noticed a black spec the size of a grain of salt imbedded in my nice new bearing - and I thought I cleaned everything too. must have missed it. I think the local Autozone carries the exact same model and oversize of bearing, so it should be cool to replace it - don't wanna assemble with crap imbedded in one of my bearings! Soon, it'll be done. Soon...
Two steps forward, one step back? No - one step forward, two steps back. At least that's how it goes at the moment. Yesterday, I got a spec of something in the #5 bearing, causing the Plastigage to indicate taper. I pulled the bearing to find a black speck the size of a small grain of salt imbedded in the bearing. So today I went to Autozone, and bought another bearing and started assembling again. Everything went well, until the Plastigage indicated slight taper again with #6, and sure enough, another black speck in the bearing! Damn it! It turns out that my assembly lube got contaminated somehow - which means that I probably smeared a ton of them into my other bearings. So that means I have to tear it down and start all over again. I might have even compromised the main bearings too - I haven't decided on checking it, though I think it'll be fine. Stupid rod bearings.
I have a picture of the #3 journal, after polishing. It doesn't seem too bad with the high spots removed. Hey - maybe they'll scrape contaminants out of my bearing inserts...
I swear, in front of all who are reading this that I'm going to end up with a running, driving, 3.4 TDC powered Fiero sooner or later. And it's going to kick ass. Just a matter of time...
Sorry about the lack of updates - I've been scrambling like a madman getting my boat ready for vacation - we leave tomorrow and I've been concentrating my full effort on it.
What I plan to do when I get back:
- Pick up bearings (rod and main, Clevite 77 Trimetal) and start reassembling the motor again. This time with fresh, CLEAN lube. Don't get dirt in your assembly lube - there's only two ways to find out, and one sucks more than the other.
- Possibly look into flame spraying #3 and regrinding to match the others. I guess the thought of the imperfection and it's possible effect on bearing life bothers me, though I have reason to believe that it'll be ok without. I'll check it out though.
- Get the engine assembled!
- Finish little tweaks to the car, and start gettin' her installed again.
- Finalizing wiring, finishing touches like dogbone mounting, acquiring and building my exhaust - I'm going to go with the FWD setup, and from the downpipe, shoot over to a cat, then up (down?) and over into a Flowmaster or Magnaflow F-Body type muffler, then out to two Z-28 style tips. I have to get new ones, but I loved how my old ones looked on my car (No flame wars on muffler perference, though positive criticism is welcome!)
- Break - in and road testing? Here's to hoping!
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10:00 PM
Jul 8th, 2005
Fierobsessed Member
Posts: 4782 From: Las Vegas, NV Registered: Dec 2001
Just a suggestion... You may want to look into replacing the crank. Any crank from ANY 3.1-3.4 3100 or 3400 are all identicle, abundant and dirt cheep. It's definatly something to consider. In my opinion, when you have a crank with rolled fillets, having the crank cut is when you should just toss the crank. The purpose of rolled fillets is to harden the rod journals at there ends so that they are far more resistant to cracking at the point where the rod journal meets the counterweight or the crank's split throws. When you cut these out you loose that hardening and that takes a toll on the high rev durability this crank was designed for, and on a 3.4 DOHC... Who knows if it can even handle it.
it isn't actually hardening, it is stress-relieving; hardening is done thru a temperature-based process ie very specific and controlled heating and quenching. I don't know if they would do that with a CI crank; maybe only steel ones...... (if then?), but you bring up a good point - worth asking for sure; if the crank gets turned down do they retain those fillets? I guess they would be reduced a bit; but how much? Do they get blended in or is it not worth it or what do they say about it?
I am guessing they will say that the size of the fillet is so large compared to the amount removed that it doesn't matter. But would it get 'blended' in? Good point and worth asking the friendly local shop. I never have.....?
A mini update (if you can call it that) to keep the thread out of the archive.
I'm back from vacation - I have my new main and rod bearings. I'm waiting to talk to a shop in Walnut Creek that wants to take a look at my crank. They weld cranks, but they say that traditionally, welding up a crank tweaks it quite a bit due to the heat. Cast iron is tricky stuff. Therefore normally one would straighten and then regrind all surfaces one undersize to make sure everything is in alignment. I've explained that my ding is too deep to cut undersize and I have bearings and everything already matched for .010 undersize. They've mentioned drilling out just the damaged area, and welding that area, then regrinding back to the size it was. It sounds like a promising approach if it's feasible.
Here's what I got:
- My crank is already precision balanced with the rest of the engine - going to a new crank will lead to another costly balancing job in addition to a new crank - way too expensive. - The dings are too deep for a regrind to take it down. Even going all the way down may leave it behind. - I just got all my bearings in, I'd like to stay at -.010" if I can.
Once I talk to the shop, I'll let ya know what I find out. I hope this works...
Second shop says that even though it looks ugly, it's better to remove the high spots and polish (done already) than to weld and regrind. I guess it makes sense, so in it goes. More on this later.
Hurry? That's probably how I trashed out so much stuff already... It's not like this is an enjoyable hobby or anything, right? Heheh. Must take my time... must take my time... Oh the hell with it, throw it together!
Anyways, update time. I've got my shortblock all together. Crank, rods and pistons are in and lubed. Thrust bearing clearance set up. The intermediate shaft is also in place, along with the infamous oil pump drive with a new product improved GM Tan O ring and plenty of sealant. All I have left to do is install the front cover with new seals, put heads on, and put the oil pump driveshaft and pump in (my pickup isn't brazed, I'm thinking I should before installing). I'm thinking that I'm not going to attempt to modify the junkyard pan I have, and instead use an accusump system. Anybody install one on their TDC? How is it working for you? Anyways, sorry for letting up on the details photo-wise, but I decided not to stop to take pictures every 10 seconds so I could concentrate long enough to get past the shortblock assembly. Can't afford to mess up more stuff!
Bottom end is complete. Make sure your bearing saddles and caps are absolutely spotless and free of lube before you put your bearing inserts in. A speck of dust can cause a bearing to sit crooked. Lube arguably promotes spun bearings, couldn't hurt to make sure it's clean anyways. Check your assembly lube! It attracts dirt - never wipe excess lube back into the tub - that's how I wiped out a set of bearings. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v249/pyromaniacal/TDC%20Swa p%20Project/Engine%20Rebuild/Assembly/Bottom_End.jpg
There's a pack of O rings that come in the conversion (bottom end) gasket set. There's two different styles of oil pan drain plug seal, an O ring for the oil pump drive (which seems too thin, and is inferior to the new GM tan O ring anyways), and an O ring that goes in the rear main bearing cap of all places - Thanks to Steven for reminding me, otherwise I would have skipped right over it. We're still puzzled as to what the hell "O ring nozzle" and "O ring" are for, as they make no sense at the moment. Hope it's nothing important... http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v249/pyromaniacal/TDC%20Swap %20Project/Engine%20Rebuild/Assembly/Cap_Oring.jpg
The oil pump drive, aka distributor blockoff. This thing is infamous for leaking oil and being impossible to properly re-seal without removing an entire cylinder head. One of my buddies were doing a rear main seal on their 3.4 Camaro and decided to pull his oil pump drive while he was at it (lucky bastard, it's easily accesible on an OHV). He went to the local Chevy dealer and bought two and gave one to me. The old O ring was like cheap, brittle plastic - it shattered into pieces as I tried to remove it - no wonder why it leaked... http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v249/pyromaniacal/TDC %20Swap%20Project/Engine%20Rebuild/Assembly/Pump_Drive_Oring.jpg
More assembly tonight. I pounded new seals into my timing cover, and then found that I've lost my Torx bit set... Have to bolt it on when I find them. I also cleaned up the deck surfaces and put the head gaskets and heads on. I have the headbolts in hand tight at the moment, I'll torque them down when I'm sure everything is correct. It's beginning to look like an engine!
The intermediate shaft has a keyway cut into it like a 2.8 camshaft does. The timing chain sprocket also has a keyway cut into it but there's NO key in it as I got it from the factory. You'd think that machining time probably costs more than they saved by omitting the key... There's nothing more than a bolt holding the belt cog onto the end of the shaft, which engages dog teeth on the chain sprocket. Chain sprocket drives the belt cog directly through dog teeth, and the belt sprocket takes the intermediate shaft along for the ride. Bass-ackwards if you ask me. So I went to Orchard Supply Hardware, and sure enough, they sell woodruff keys. Furthermore, they sell one that fits perfectly - a 1/2" long 1/8" wide. For 59 cents, it's cheap insurance. Just make sure you add it in BEFORE you install the stupid timing cogs, cuz it's a ***** and a half to pull it apart again and reinstall later (don't ask...). You'll need to tap the key in with something softer than the key, so you don't deform it. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v249/pyromaniacal/TDC%20Swap%20Project/Engine%20Rebuild/Assembly/Key.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v249/pyromaniacal/TDC%20Swap%20Project/Engine%20Rebuild/Assembly/Key_Installed.jpg
Thanks for taking the time to document all of this including the setbacks that you have experienced. If it wasn't for informative threads and people I'm sure that others, like me, wouldn't attempt these kind of swaps.
Thanks!
Nolan
PS: any updates?
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11:30 PM
Jul 26th, 2005
Steven Snyder Member
Posts: 3324 From: Los Angeles, CA Registered: Mar 2004
"I also have a *really stupid* question - does it matter which head goes on which bank?! I realize all the sudden that I really don't know the answer to that. It seems like they could go either way, though the head with the hole for the coolant temp sensor is facing the correct way, so I'm sure they're on the way they came. In the last picture, you can see the spring shims the machinist installed to bring the pressure up to spec."
Best I can tell the ehads are identical. But the front head has a sensor (Which is very hard to remove, thus is normally left in). It is brass, and has a single wire coming off of it. It is the temp sensor. The rear head just has a plug here. Other than this, I do believe they are the same and can be mounted either way, but just to be safe, do it the way they came off (The head with the hole there is probably the front, with a sensor that should go there).
You left the torx bit set behind when we were swapping the motor in that 4Runner, remember? Pick it up tomorrow.
D'OH! I figured. Oh well, nice to have a backup set.
I'm basically waiting to get the heads torqued down - Steven reported that his motor had washers under his headbolts. How many 3.4 DOHC guys had washers in their head bolts - show of hands? I stripped a motor at the junkyard and don't remember washers on that motor, either. I called the dealer today and the guy checked out 91, 93, 94, and 96 model year motors (pretty patient guy going through all those years to help me find WASHERS of all things), and didn't see any mention of headbolt washers either. The only reason I'm looking for them, is cuz a lot of different stuff online advises using hardened washers on any alloy head. These bolts are under massive torque, and it seems likely that the steel sliding over the aluminum is likely to gall it up and get "sticky" which will F up the torque readings. So washers sound like a good idea. If I can't find them, I'll go without but I figure it's worth a look. More in a day or two.
www.mcmaster.com you can find just about anything there - size up the hardened washers you want and buy a box of em (or get em at the hardware store) unless you need something with a specific thickness and tolerance then a washer is a washer (other than the material)
just took apart a 92 pretty recently; no washers. Took apart a ~91 quite a while ago; no washers that I remember but not sure. But yes, I agree with you; regardless of what the head is, that should give you a better reading when you crank them down. Maybe a dab of oil on them just for that purpose.
Keep up the great info! Looking forward to a sound bite! gp
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07:52 AM
AaronZ34 Member
Posts: 2322 From: Colorado Springs, CO Registered: Oct 2004
No year 3.4 had washers on the head bolts, the bolts themselves had the "washer edge" on them, like almost 99% of all the bolts on the motor.
See, that's what I thought. So other people stripped motors and saw none as well. I noticed that there's plenty of bearing area under the flange on my bolts, I just hope the aluminum doesn't gall up and get sticky when I torque em'. Oil should help. I just checked the washers from Steven's motor - they look like the hardened washers I get from OSH. Funny thing is that he had GM head and camtower gaskets, and all that... it appears to have come that way from the factory, though we're beginning to suspect that perhaps a shop did headwork at some point and stuck them in, using GM gaskets and parts.
Several sources (including Fel-Pro, who made my new bolts) says that you should always use a hardened washer on an alloy head. If it comes down to it, I'll just use some OSH hardened washers and call it good. What the hell, it should work fine. More on this as I progress.
Hey, things are still going. Been busy working and a bunch of other stuff, but when I get a moment I'll post up pics of what's been going on.
Progress so far: Both cyl. heads are bolted on. I've disassembled, cleaned, reassembled and installed one of the two camtowers. All I really need to do is finish the last camtower, install the intake, install timing belt, install accessories and belt, bolt the oil pump on, and get ahold of an oil pan and I'm done. I've also removed my steel fuel lines and put a piece of 3/4" rubber hose over them for protection from abrasion and heat since they're in the vincinity of the exhaust manifold. I also put a flare on the end so the hose can't slip off. Hot fuel couldn't possibly be good. I have to grind on my decklid hinge a little more, but other than that, I'm pretty much ready to drop her in once I get it put together.
Pics and a proper progress report shortly. Stay tuned.
Well, thanks everybody for your patience - I figure I'm long overdue for an update.
Work on the motor has been pretty slow since I've been busy, but it's picking back up now. I have the entire longblock put together, pretty much. I need to install my oil pump (waiting to see if I can braze the pickup tube). I have an oilpan on it's way here (all 3 I have are junk, much to my chagrin. They might make good cores for modified pans though...). I need to install the fuel rail, injectors, exhaust and intake manifolds, crossover pipe, timing belt cover, inspection covers, accessories, and a few miscellaneous fittings and such. Once I get it all put together, I'll reinstall it on the cradle, wire it all up (again), and then put it back in the car. Hopefully it won't be long after until I have it running. I just need a driver side coolant hose and fill, a dogbone, and to relocate my battery. That's pretty much all I need to do before I can get this bad boy on the road!
I don't have so many pictures to show at the moment, though I have a couple:
Ok, so I was experimenting with bending my oil dipstick tube, when I found a shape that seems to position the dipstick handle in a way that makes it easier to access in the stock location - just like the 90' prototype. Sorta bent towards the firewall, then the last couple inches bent back in toward the trunk. It's a little tight but the dipstick still slides in and out ok (Hey! I see that grin, pervert!). Anyways, I couldn't leave well enough alone, and ended up breaking the dipstick tube! I found a piece of steel brake line of the same diameter laying around, bent it into the correct shape and cut it to the right length. I figured that if I tack weld it back and forth, all the way around carefully enough that it might work without burning through - turns out that it's very strong! I got lucky. In the last pic, the angle makes it hard to see the bend. I'll post up more pics of it in place - I'm not sure if it's going to work or not, we'll see. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v249/pyromaniacal/TDC%20Swap%20Project/Final%20Assembly/Welding.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v249/pyromaniacal/TDC%20Swap%20Project/Final%20Assembly/Welding2.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v249/pyromaniacal/TDC%20Swap%20Project/Final%20Assembly/Done.jpg
good to see you're still at 'er. it IS a long process isn't it?!?! Patience is something I am really learning on this one!!
Dunno if I would have been (or WILL be, maybe?..) as patient as you on some of the things that have gone on. What is the issue with the brazing? I think it should braze; it looks like the same stuff as SBC oil pumps and they are no prob.
Intersting about the brake tubing; did it fit into the block nice and tight? THAT is something you don't want popping out.... (messy!!) OR (now that I think about it) wiggling up/out by an inch and thus giving an inaccurate dipstick reading (resulting in overfilling the oil.....)
)
