6-28-08 Non Fiero related - Updated with interesting bike picture about 3/4 of the way down page 1 below the recumbent bike.

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Yes it's time for another 3.4 build thread. Starting on the 85GT that I picked up for $124.00.
First a few starter pics.
Here is my shop my son and I built completely by ourselves. Footings to finish. Started out with a 30X40 but just could not stop with the cars I had. Knowing I would like a paint booth decided to add on another 17X26 setting it up for painting but can also do a two post lift.
Added a little update 7-3-09
https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum6/HTML/066457.html



Getting kind of crowded as you can see. There are five cars in here.



Up the 85GT goes. Had to take it out the back since I had the car in sideways. The host I got at an auction for $25 including the chain host. A guy had built it to raise his large garden tractor to work on. It's pulled a few engines already. Think I got my money's worth. Also works nice for rolling the car around. Had the nose off to fix it so didn't have to worry about it hitting the floor. The 88 FB is my son's it's getting a Ford 9" rear right now and then a 383 Stroker. http://www.geocities.com/tzfbird/tzfbird.html



Now getting down to business. The guy I bought it from thought an injector had quit and he just kept driving. He figured he had burnt a hole though a piston. Got to this point.. What do you think?, no hole, but sure looks like it was hot. Can you say charcoal!



The cylinders are interesting, all are carboned except #6.
Here's the right bank.

Here's the left bank.


Now tell me what do you think was up with this motor? Bet he used Pennzoil !

Glad I was planning on a 3.4 transplant, this one is toast.

All for now. Have to go pick up the 3.4 and start cleaning everything. I also have picked up a 5sp isy trany to replace the 4sp. Want this car to get better mpg on the highway..

More to come.

[This message has been edited by Dodgerunner (edited 07-03-2009).]

Looks cool. Any plans for the 3.4, or are you going to leave it stock?

Man I thought I had a lot of stuff in my garage. Isn't amazing what people will do to an engine out of ignorance!!! Good luck on the project. Cheers Beers n Gears. Joe

Cool set up my friend, Looking forward to the build thread, Thanks for taking the time to post it....

[This message has been edited by 3800superfast (edited 10-22-2006).]

I'll be watching. Whats the status?

What a great setup you have!

Andrew

quote All for now. Have to go pick up the 3.4 and start cleaning everything. I also have picked up a 5sp isy trany to replace the 4sp. Want this car to get better mpg on the highway..

I honestly dont think that you will see a noticable differance in MPG by running an Isuzu over a muncie. Most people like to use Muncies with swaps due to the rock solid reliabily that the munices offer. In my opinion, I would honestly think about "downgrading" to a 4speed If i had a Isuzu car.

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: I honestly dont think that you will see a noticable differance in MPG by running an Isuzu over a muncie. Most people like to use Muncies with swaps due to the rock solid reliabily that the munices offer. In my opinion, I would honestly think about "downgrading" to a 4speed If i had a Isuzu car.

I think dodgerunner made it clear --he wasn`t looking for a race car---just something to comute in , that was good on gas, and at the price he has been getting everything for--it would have been hard to pass up.. The 5 speeds do get better gas mileage.

How much time should I expect a mechanic to work on a 3.4 swap ? from beginning to the end would it be something like 10 hours , 15 hours , 20 or more ?

Well made the purchase of the 3.4 today.
It's a 94 and they claim it only has 74K on it. They also say they hot run the engine on a stand and take oil and compression readings. They state it has 175 compression and 50psi on the oil. Ya right! They wanted a little more for it then I planned on so I asked for the "Tuesday special" and go them down to $500 which is what I was willing to go on it.

Had not been in this yard in years it actually is owned by a family that use to be from my home town. A car fell on the son many years ago. The dad still runs it with son-in-law now. They run a really clean op with all the engines racked and stacked in nice storage and capped off.
I have been stripping down and cleaning the cradle to mount the engine and 5sp.
Just got it to it's new home.


So the question is. The engine has sat on a shelf for a while. I notice that the lower frost plugs are rusting thru. I was hoping to just check out the bottom end, check out the timing chain, put on the top end and replace all of the seals. Didn't want to pull the heads if I didn't have to.
What do you think? If the engine sat for a while think the cylinders are OK. I have no idea if they pickle them after they run them. I might call and ask if they shoot some oil in before shelving them.
So add frost plugs to the list and a flywheel. Then flush the cooling passages.

[This message has been edited by Dodgerunner (edited 10-31-2006).]

Bump for updates. & Question

Good luck - and not a bad price, either.

Can you turn the engine using the flywheel or a wrench? Is so, then I would guess that there is no need to break into the engine or worry about the condition too much. Mine sat for almost 10 years and it spins freely so far. The oil pan and intake are off, so there is no old oil left. The water pump was pretty nasty from sitting, but that's it. It is going into my Fiero very soon. I am drilling out the starter holes soon, so let me know if you want to buy a used Rodney Dickman drill jig.

I'll be watching to see if you pass me since I am moving pretty slow on my install.

Thanks for the input. One other item I forgot.

For drilling the starter. Others said that the left side where the starter moves to has the inside bolt going into the flat area and the outside on going into a 45* slopped area. On this engine the mount area is completely flat. both sides are the same flat wings so the starter will have the same mounting contact area.
Is this normal? Are there two different style of blocks? Found that interesting.

quote Originally posted by Dodgerunner: Thanks for the input. One other item I forgot. For drilling the starter. Others said that the left side where the starter moves to has the inside bolt going into the flat area and the outside on going into a 45* slopped area. On this engine the mount area is completely flat. both sides are the same flat wings so the starter will have the same mounting contact area. Is this normal? Are there two different style of blocks? Found that interesting.

That is interesting. My engine had the 45* slope cut into the starter side for whatever reason. If your engine has a full wing on each side, it really just makes your life easier. Its much easier to drill and tap a regular hole than one going through an angled surface.

quote Originally posted by Dodgerunner: Thanks for the input. One other item I forgot. For drilling the starter. Others said that the left side where the starter moves to has the inside bolt going into the flat area and the outside on going into a 45* slopped area. On this engine the mount area is completely flat. both sides are the same flat wings so the starter will have the same mounting contact area. Is this normal? Are there two different style of blocks? Found that interesting.

Yup - you got lucky! I've never heard anyone have theirs flat, either.

Just my luck (or maybe not) a rouge block. Probably a screwed up monday or friday casting from the foundery....

oh well it will keep things interesting.

When I get around to drilling it I'll post a picture....

All of the 3.4s I have done are angled too.
Kinda makes one wonder.

------------------
"DRIVE IT LIKE A FIERO"
'84 Fiero, engine to be determined
'87Blue GT 3.4L Swap Completed!!!!!!!!
http://www.lasvegasfieroclub.com/

OK, I'll say it. Are you sure it's a Camaro/Firebird engine? I can't tell from the one picture. How about a top-down view of the intake? Mine had the 45 degree angle too.

Popped all the block plugs to day and started flushing the block. Could not believe what came out.
This is probably 1/10th of what came out, I had been flushing and washing it off the drive before i thought to take a pic.
And was checking and there is still more juke to work out...Don't know if it was because the engine was pulled and on a rack or just fairly normal build up. It's made up mostly of caked fine rust.



That's a 34mm plug laying in the pic.
If you are reworking a block without having it boiled be sure and give it a good cleaning...

I then scraped around inside the passages with a coat hanger and broke loose a lot more crud. This is some that I just knocked out the holes. The rest I flushed out with a pressure washer. The inside looks really good now.

[This message has been edited by Dodgerunner (edited 05-15-2006).]

Wow! That IS a lot of gunk considering that there was a LOT more!!! I wasn't planning on replacing them on mine, but I guess I will now! How does all that gunk get in there?

Incredible.

[This message has been edited by FierosinKY (edited 05-14-2006).]

The coolant passages are all cleaned up now. Picked up the plugs and they go in next.

Update. Frost plugs are in.

Pulled the water pump and timing cover. All looks good except timing chain is worn.

Pulled the heads to check out the cyl. Could not believe one head bolt was broken and just setting in place. Glad I decided to pull the heads. Now have to grill and ez-out the broken bolt.

Crank looks good but bearings have a couple small scratches like normal. Guess I'll put new ones in just to be safe.

Any recomendations of bearings? The parts stores carry AL. or Tri metal. Any comments on either. I know the AL are normally what the factory uses.

DR

Waiting on the cam and lifters, so decided to start on some of the body fix-up. I had noticed that the right rear bumper was not aligned where the bumper meets with the rear fender at the trim line. Figured there might be some hidden damage.

Pulled the bumper and fount this. Not to bad.





Did a little body work and application of some heat. Now looks like this.



Next will be total rust proofing of the inside of the frame.

[This message has been edited by Dodgerunner (edited 09-05-2006).]

Well finally getting around to an update.

The new main and rod bearings are in, HV oil pump, New Crane Cam and bearingare in, New timing set, New water pump installed, 3.4 damper marked and installed along with front seal.

Starter relocation done. I took the starter apart to clean it and replace the brushes.



With the new flywheel on clamped the starter front frame and bendix onto the block and marked the holes.




Drilled 1/8 holes then worked up to the tap size. Unfortunately working to late has it's pitfalls. Grabed the wrong drill and drilled the inside hole to large. The hole is now the proud owner of a HeleCoil. Should be fine since the starter pushed against the block on Fiero engine instead of pulling.



Now on to porting the heads and exhaust.

Unported


Ported. Port matched to the exhaust manifolds and not the gaskets since it would not do much good to go bigger then the manifold can be taken.


Unported exhaust. No laughing at the gloves their great for keeping metal fillings off your hand and really nice when the grinder wheel slips and hits you hand. Eye, nose and ear protection are a good idea when porting.


Ported exhaust. Ported to the inside of the inlet pipe size.


Have stripped the valve covers and an now polishing and repainting the covers and both top and bottom intake.

Once the heads are on the block will Paint the block, heads, and front of engine.

[This message has been edited by Dodgerunner (edited 12-01-2006).]

Looking good!

One thing I might suggest is getting different exhaust gaskets. The Fiero gaskets are not perforated, and have steel o-rings around the ports. I have heard that they are much less likely to blow out.

I missed this thread the first time. Nice job on the hoist frame.
I had someone build me one since I am a complete klutz when it comes to fabrication.

What cam are you using?

------------------
Raydar
88 4.9 Formula IMSA Fasback..........................88 3.4 coupe................................................

Read Nealz Nuze! Praise the Lowered!

Was taking the old 2.8 heads apart to bolt the manifolds to and have them welded.


The guy I bought the car from though he had burned a hole though on of the pistons. Here is what I found on Cyl 6.

Think this might have caused some back pressure when the cyl. tried to exhaust...?
Carbon popcicle anyone.

Now I know why that #6 Cyl. was so clean in the earlier pictures. Nothing getting in or out of it....

[This message has been edited by Dodgerunner (edited 01-06-2007).]

Holy schnickies!

Is that a chunk missing from the valve?!
Any fuel that made it into the cylinder was getting pumped right out into the exhaust port, and then ignited.

No wonder it didn't run right.

[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 09-07-2006).]

I just wanted to say good luck and thank you for the exhaust valve pictures. Usually there isn't much to amuse me around midnight, but I got a laugh out of seeing that.

Well working on the 3.4 took a little sidetrack this weekend. Got another wild hair and tossed this together. Stopped at the police auction to see if there where any Fieros and ended up with 15 bikes for $13. Been wanting to try a recumbent bike so played a little.





Kind of interesting riding. Since you don't balance with your body but only the steering it's a different feeling. Banking into turns feels a little like flying..

6-28-08 New gas saving toy. 48cc motor with clutch. 25mph, on track to get about 120mpg. Been riding it to work a few times.

[This message has been edited by Dodgerunner (edited 06-28-2008).]

quote Originally posted by Dodgerunner:Well working on the 3.4 took a little sidetrack this weekend. Got another wild hair and thru this together. Stopped at the police auction to see if there where any Fieros and ended up with 15 bikes for $13. Been wanting to try a recumbent bike so played a little. Kind of interesting riding. Since you don't balance with your body but only the steering it's a different feeling. Banking into turns feels a little like flying..

I bet it handles like it's riding on rails.

Man, I forgot how nice that garage setup is!

A man, a welder, lotsa spare metal pieces and spare time is a dangerous thing!!!!!

BTW, on the exhaust porting, is ok to go bigger on the manifold side, that slight step will act like an AR (anti-revisionary) header, and tends to keep the flow heading in the right direction.

Makes since I'll remember that when I do the 88 manifolds. I don't know if I want to revist these again. But I might since it's a 3.4.

OK, the izzy 5 speed is cleaned up and ready to mount.
I'm reusing the clutch plate and disk for the 2.8 since it was replace shortly before I bought the car.



Finished painting the intake and valve covers. Cradle is painted and almost ready to start mounting everything. I have to finish the injector cleaner board so I can test and clean the injectors.
Engine is all black except for the top and middle intake.
Highlighted the intake and covers with black also.

[This message has been edited by Dodgerunner (edited 12-01-2006).]

Nice build thread, and I like your wood lift frame. Nicely designed.

One question about the intake.

Looking good, but, from what I've read, it won't fully service 3.4 liters. I think it runs 318 cfm max and the 3.4 needs quite a bit more.

What is the plan?

Arn

I'm not going for the much extra power. When I got the car the 2.8 was a boat anchor and needed an engine so why use a 2.8 when a 3.4 has beter oil system and more low end torque. It's going to be a daily driver so wanted the best gas mileage I can get. That is why I'm also putting in the 5 sp izzy.
Sorry to disappoint you...

Maybe I'll get a wild hair in the future and change it, but no plans for now..

[This message has been edited by Dodgerunner (edited 10-02-2006).]

quote Originally posted by tjm4fun: A man, a welder, lotsa spare metal pieces and spare time is a dangerous thing!!!!! BTW, on the exhaust porting, is ok to go bigger on the manifold side, that slight step will act like an AR (anti-revisionary) header, and tends to keep the flow heading in the right direction.

I really don't see any difference in the ported one. Those little tabs at the top and bottom need to go. That's the restriction. Otherwise no gain.

[This message has been edited by Alex4mula (edited 10-02-2006).]

What your seeing in that pic is what's left of the weld connecting the out pipe to the cross pipe, didn't want to grind it all away. If you look close at the first orig. pic the flanges are there but are black from the carbon/soot.

[This message has been edited by Dodgerunner (edited 10-02-2006).]

That was a general statement for the porting. the stock logs don;t give you much to work with there.
You should have used the bike frame tubes to weld up a sprint type exhaust

I am so sorry I painted my block/heads black. I have one tiny little oil leak and I can;t find the damn thing.
gonna try blowing talcum powder on the block and see where it sticks and see if I can trace it that way.... it;s really tiny, just enough to be annoying, but not enough to warrant a manhunt. it may actually be the oilpan itself has a pin hole.

Yes I had thought about leaks and black before I painted, but you go with what you like and pay for it later...

After reading the sand bending method I want to try that for some headers. Just need to find some flanges. Anyone know where you can get some without using a set of manifold flanges?

Know it won't make any difference on my 3.4 in stock intake but might sound different...

[This message has been edited by Dodgerunner (edited 11-09-2006).]

Since you are building more for economy with a little power increase, it would be a good idea to research the high volume oil pump choice. In my opinion, experience and what I have read it will likely cost you more in efficiency than you will gain in engine lubrication insurance on an engine already improved in that area.

My experience from installing a high volume pump after having read about its ability on a stock engine to pump all of the oil up to the top of the engine nearly emptying the sump (high rpm use I guess) is the following:
I nearly sprained my wrist when I manually primed the engine, an indication of the load the pump would place on the motor
When my oil level dropped down around the add 1 quart level the danger of emptying the pan increased.
One day a rod went through the side of the block.

Not saying this will happen to you but be mindful of it. Apparently there are high vol and high pressure configurations, I would opt for stock or high pressure in your build because the higher volume pump is going to require more crankshaft energy to operate and that will reduce your fuel efficiency. I noticed a performance differance in my engine between 5W 30 which is all I use now and 10W 30 so it's feasible that the HV pump might not carry it's weight in benefits under the circumstance of a vehicle planned for practical use more so than hot rodding. Just something I thought you might want to consider.

Keep your high volume pump, I did some research and like the info in this article better though you can't do more work without using more energy in this circumstance so I'm still sure it does require more energy to operate but will not give you the same problem I ran into in moderate use as long as the oil can get back down to the pan easily on a spirited run.

http://www.summitracing.com/streetandstrip/professor_overdrive/TechFAQDetails.asp?SearchText=high%20volume%20oil%20pump&SubProduct=15&Page=1&ID=36

[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 10-03-2006).]

Interesting reading. Thanks for adding that.

The bottom line is the pump is in, box tossed, and pan buttoned up so it not changing now....