I don't suppose you noticed that "B" is right next to "V" on the keyboard and that was a typo, I've spent a lot of time trying to break the habit of feeling I need to be grammatically perfect on the forum so I could post quicker now you've messed "me" head up and I've reverted back to that obsessive compulsive behavior.
Fine, but that still doesn't explain the missing "E".
Sorry, but I'm rather "obsessive compulsive" in these matters myself.
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02:40 PM
GKDINC Member
Posts: 1812 From: East Tawas MI Registered: Dec 2001
It's funny that when you start a post that just poses a question; it is sometimes interpreted as trying to start a flame war. The purpose of any forum is simply for the open exchange of ideas and opinions. Asking for an opinion or a statement on ones preference cannot be construed as flaming.
That's fine that you want to pose a question and want to see an exchange of ideas and opinions. The problem comes with HOW you posed your initial post about wanting a "fair minded look" but you immediately slammed the V-8's with "expensive heavy inefficient gas hungry" and as you can see that isn't the correct facts.
I also was not the only one who thought that the thread was started with what appeared to have the intent of getting a flame war going. (trolling) Just a thought but maybe the few who thought you were trolling were going by your past history of slamming certain swaps and fuel delivery systems?
It's great that you have decided on the 3800SC swap. I'm sure it will be exactly what you want. ZZP has done excellent work with 3800SC's and they have an excellent reputation as well. All I ask is that if you want honest "fair minded" answers, information, and opinions about swaps, Don't start off by slamming one especially when most of the facts you posted are inaccurate.
[This message has been edited by Oreif (edited 05-06-2007).]
That's fine that you want to pose a question and want to see an exchange of ideas and opinions. The problem comes with HOW you posed your initial post about wanting a "fair minded look" but you immediately slammed the V-8's with "expensive heavy inefficient gas hungry" and as you can see that isn't the correct facts.
I also was not the only one who thought that the thread was started with what appeared to have the intent of getting a flame war going. (trolling) Just a thought but maybe the few who thought you were trolling were going by your past history of slamming certain swaps and fuel delivery systems?
It's great that you have decided on the 3800SC swap. I'm sure it will be exactly what you want. ZZP has done excellent work with 3800SC's and they have an excellent reputation as well. All I ask is that if you want honest "fair minded" answers, information, and opinions about swaps, Don't start off by slamming one especially when most of the facts you posted are inaccurate.
Tolerate the opinions of others whether they are right or wrong and you'll lead a happier life. This is what is known as maturity. If my posts so upset you, so ruin your day; I have a solution; please don't read them. I intend to keep posting my opinions. Whether you agree with them or not doesn't matter in the slightest.
I don;t know if it was really a flame thing, I think he was looking for someone to present a strong argument for the v8 vs the v6. No one did. Why? where do you guys get this no high rpms on a v8 stuff? that is what amazes me. pushrod limitations? BS. True you won;t get there stock. true also you have to do all the right things, but high rpm sbc's are well documented as to what to do and how to do it. Hint: stroking a 350 won;t make the rpms go up! Unfortunately high rpm pushrod 6's are not as well documented, and often will need some custom parts, but you can apply the sbc tricks to the 6 also.
I see he went with the 3800sc, and all arguments aside, for a DD car, that is probably the best choice. a reliable motor, highly rated, proven reliabilty and capable of good power and economy.
Possibly the N* motor properly controlled would be the best alternative in the v8 class, due to the high tech, but in honesty, you couldn;t give me a caddy motor. their history is not good imho, fine for light daily driving, read: old man in his cts, but get on it regularly and they dont; hold up. I suppose that is improving as they are trying to market the car as performance against the euro imports, so they may be more viable. no offense to the N* guys, just a personal thing with me, I may be totally wrong, but perception of the number of people I;ve known personally who've had motors replaced (4), tends to make one skeptical. that;s too bad as an aluminum engine is just so right for the back of a fiero.
[This message has been edited by tjm4fun (edited 05-06-2007).]
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05:58 PM
Toddster Member
Posts: 20871 From: Roswell, Georgia Registered: May 2001
Sorry people but Dennis is correct here. I hate to take sides but this is not a sides issue. It is simply one of facts. Despite his invitation to flame his premise is correct. V-8 engines are yesterday's technology. In a world of $4.00/gallon gas and Fieros holding a whopping 10-12 gallon max AND the fact that most modern V-6 can produce more power than most of us will ever need the choice is simple. My Chrysler M300 has a 3.5Liter DOHC engine that will leave any stock V-8 I've ever come across in the dust. Power to weight ratio people, that is the bottom line.
I've owned a V-8 Fiero and couldn't get rid of it fast enough. The vibrations, the noise, the fuel cost, and the difficult maintenance, not to mention the affect on the rest of the car was not worth it. A powerful DOHC V-6 with all the gadgetry is the best offering. Keep in mind the Ruf Porsche can go WELL over 200MPH. I saw one on the autobahn being tested on a TV show where it hit 212MPH with a driver, passenger, and cameraman fully equiped.
The old addage that it takes 4 times the horsepower to go twice as fast is as true today as ever. Nearly 40% of the power generated by a big block V-8 is wasted carrying it's own weight!! By using more light weight metals, better airflow and fuel management methods, plus positive pressure you can extract an enormous amount of energy from smaller and lighter engines.
The equation we need to concern ourselves with most is what is the cost per hp. Sure a V-8 can give you more ponies but do you really need 425hp? Won't a 300hp fiero do? Well, the cost per hp of the V-6 option is a fraction of the cost for the same hp in a V-8. If you are doing quarter miles runs get the V-8, if not, stay with a V-6.
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05:59 PM
GKDINC Member
Posts: 1812 From: East Tawas MI Registered: Dec 2001
" The vibrations, the noise, the fuel cost, and the difficult maintenance, not to mention the affect on the rest of the car was not worth it."
What was difficult about the maintenance, what was the affect on the rest of the car? Vibrations and noise, I thought were part of Hot Rodding a Fiero, But I could be wrong! Keep us posted. Gary P.S. we all suffer from fuel cost!
[This message has been edited by GKDINC (edited 05-06-2007).]
What about my inexpensive, light weight, efficient v8? I guess that I got one of the only 'good' Caddy 4.5 v8's because I have not had any trouble with it. The original v6 in my SE was a 16 second car (automatic), the 4.5 runs 14.9's and on the way to The Fiero Factory, it got over 31 MPG, even though on I-65 I was cruising at over 85 MPH for many miles. Powerful? No, it is still a turd. But an ancient v8 can have decent performance and good economy.
Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua: Tolerate the opinions of others whether they are right or wrong
An opinion can neither be right or wrong. There is no best swap for everyone. I like V-8's you obviously like V-6's . Why does this sh!t always have to get everyone fighting ? People are RETARDED !
I strongly agree with the second statement of the two I've quoted below.
With all due respect, however, I strongly disagree with the first statement:
quote
Originally posted by FIEROPHREK: An opinion can neither be right or wrong. There is no best swap for everyone.
Suppose I said that in my opinion, all engines are 2.7183-cylinder engines.
Would one not agree that such an opinion is just flat-out WRONG?
More importantly, what would be the problem in pointing out the illogic of such an opinion? What would be the problem in pointing out that such an opinion is just flat-out WRONG?
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10:08 PM
KaijuSenso Member
Posts: 911 From: Westland, MI Registered: Jan 2007
Suppose I said that in my opinion, all engines are 2.7183-cylinder engines.
Would one not agree that such an opinion is just flat-out WRONG?
More importantly, what would be the problem in pointing out the illogic of such an opinion? What would be the problem in pointing out that such an opinion is just flat-out WRONG?
well tehcnically i wouldn't call that an opinion at all. more like an incorrect statement because it is quite simple to prove how many cylinders an engine has (unless you want to be annoying and count damaged engines...)
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11:50 PM
Blacktree Member
Posts: 20770 From: Central Florida Registered: Dec 2001
Sorry. Preferences are not allowed in CA unless it passes C.A.R.B. j/k
On the serious note, I've never tested all types of engine swaps other than the stock 2.8 and the N*. As for me giving my honest opinon would mean I'd need to have tested all types (3800SC, 3.4, V8). However, fuel economy, reliability, and at least 200hp would float my boat.
------------------ "Anyone can make a copy of something, it may look good but it ever is the real car. Make something from your imagination, something unique, something nobody has, anything is possible and, ideas can be a reality."
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02:14 AM
Patrick Member
Posts: 37674 From: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada Registered: Apr 99
Just a thought but maybe the few who thought you (Dennis) were trolling were going by your past history of slamming certain swaps and fuel delivery systems?
I can't speak for the others, but I have no idea who Dennis LaGrua is or what he drives. I thought at first that his post was a joke, that he was just being funny. Well now that I know that it wasn't a joke, I still find it rather amusing that someone would purposely try and bait other forum members over such a silly topic. Something like this belongs in OT under politics and/or religion.
quote
Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua:
I started this post to take a fair minded look at the benefits of using an efficent, lightweight, modern, economical V6 engine in your Fiero as opposed to using an expensive heavy inefficient gas hungry V8 engine.
Just for the record, my Fieros are all 4-bangers.
If I was going to do an engine swap where time, money and effort weren’t an issue, I’d go for a V8 in an instant. Call me a dinosaur, but nothing, I mean NOTHING, sounds like a high performance V8 rumbling through free-flowing true dual-exhaust. And lets face it, it’s the sound we get to enjoy a whole lot more than the performance (good or bad) in our normal day to day driving.
V6's sound like... well, they sound like V6's.
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04:05 AM
Oreif Member
Posts: 16460 From: Schaumburg, IL Registered: Jan 2000
Tolerate the opinions of others whether they are right or wrong and you'll lead a happier life. This is what is known as maturity. If my posts so upset you, so ruin your day; I have a solution; please don't read them. I intend to keep posting my opinions. Whether you agree with them or not doesn't matter in the slightest.
Tolerating anothers opinion is easy, it's called an open mind. Watching you constantly post inaccurate information is humorus. It doesn't "upset" me, But I will post correct information so others can make a better decision based on accurate information.
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07:29 AM
Oreif Member
Posts: 16460 From: Schaumburg, IL Registered: Jan 2000
Sorry people but Dennis is correct here. I hate to take sides but this is not a sides issue. It is simply one of facts. Despite his invitation to flame his premise is correct. V-8 engines are yesterday's technology. In a world of $4.00/gallon gas and Fieros holding a whopping 10-12 gallon max AND the fact that most modern V-6 can produce more power than most of us will ever need the choice is simple. My Chrysler M300 has a 3.5Liter DOHC engine that will leave any stock V-8 I've ever come across in the dust. Power to weight ratio people, that is the bottom line.
Your 300M will leave a stock V-8 car? Then you talk about power to weight? 300M weighs 3650 and the 3.5L DOHC puts out 255hp, That is a 14.3:1 ratio. It goes 0-60 in 7.4 seconds and 1/4 mile in 15.6 (Motor Trend magazine) Grand Prix GXP weighs 3520 the 5.3L V-8 puts out 303 hp, That is a 11.6:1 ratio It goes 0-60 in 5.7 seconds and the 1/4 mile in 14.3 (Car and Driver Magazine)
A new Mustang GT is a 13 second car from the factory. Actually I can't think of any newer V-8 car that is in the 15 second range.
Do you think the guys in the V-8's were not racing?? Are you sure the cars had V-8's? What cars were these? A mid 15 second car is slow by today's standard. A V6 Fiero could hit mid 15's back in the 80's and it was considered a quick car back then and slow today.
quote
Originally posted by Toddster: I've owned a V-8 Fiero and couldn't get rid of it fast enough. The vibrations, the noise, the fuel cost, and the difficult maintenance, not to mention the affect on the rest of the car was not worth it. A powerful DOHC V-6 with all the gadgetry is the best offering. Keep in mind the Ruf Porsche can go WELL over 200MPH. I saw one on the autobahn being tested on a TV show where it hit 212MPH with a driver, passenger, and cameraman fully equiped.
If your V-8 Fiero had all those things then it was not built correctly. I've had mine for 2 years and the only thing I can agree with is the noise as the exhaust on mine is loud, But that is the way I wanted it. I saw the same show and it was 212 K/ph, The show was called "Top Gear". It was being driven by a business man who drives that speed everyday to work and the car just hummed along like it was being driven a lot slower. The same show ran other cars as well. If I recall the fastest they ran was around 410 K/ph which is around 230 mph.
quote
Originally posted by Toddster: The old addage that it takes 4 times the horsepower to go twice as fast is as true today as ever. Nearly 40% of the power generated by a big block V-8 is wasted carrying it's own weight!! By using more light weight metals, better airflow and fuel management methods, plus positive pressure you can extract an enormous amount of energy from smaller and lighter engines.
So tell me how we went from SBC V-8's to the weight of a big block? LS2 = 400hp and it is lighter than a 3.4L DOHC engine with only 215 hp. Wanna bet the LS4 5.3L is about the same weight as your 3.5L DOHC engine?
[This message has been edited by Oreif (edited 05-07-2007).]
There's no "E" in "typo", are you trying to typographically twist me up even more.
Misspelling - "britney spears" —> "brittany spears" Transposition - "britney spears" —> "britneys pears" Omission - "britney spears" —> "britny spears" Double Strike - "britney spears" —> "brittney spears" Wrong Key - "britney spears" —> "brotney spears"[1] This one's mine, I didn't know typos were catagorized. One hand in the wrong place - "britney spears" -> "btiynry dprstd"
What Patrick is saying (and I thought before I even read his first comment) was that if you had meant to type "curve" but hit the "b" instead of the "v," you would've typed "curbe." But you didn't, you typed "curb," so the logical assumption is that you used the wrong word entirely. And, that you are infatuated with Britney Spears
------------------ 86 Fiero GT -Stage eleventy billion...(pieces, that is!)
I think one is better than the other. But each swap needs to be taken on its own merits as applied to what is desired in the final outcome. It weighed heavily on me, personally, making this same decision. A V8 is just simply impressive. Everything you can do to a V6, you can do to a V8. I decided on a V6 for several reasons. These reasons would not apply to others, so the V8 may very well be a better choice. Given $10k to do a swap, I would do an LS1/2/4/7 or whatever. It would be nice to have had a compare and contrast thread for when someone is trying to figure this crap out.
------------------ '86 GTFB, white, auto '86 SE V6, red, auto, aeropackage Just purchased both Mar 17, 07. Neither running. Both 99.9% complete. May sell SE.
[This message has been edited by sYkboy (edited 05-10-2007).]
My Chrysler M300 has a 3.5Liter DOHC engine that will leave any stock V-8 I've ever come across in the dust. Power to weight ratio people, that is the bottom line.
Todd, I'm glad you are happy with your 300C, but you must not have come across any stock Mustang Cobras, or even Corvettes (Z06 or not) if you need a Chevy example. Oh, you're a Mopar guy - how many HEMIs have you "left?"
I know it's a stereotype, and it doens't include everyone, but here's what I've noticed: just like a lot of short guys adopt a 'bada$$' attitude to compensate for their own insecurities, some people who prefer a smaller engine do the same thing. They feel like they have something to prove.
I myself prefer V8s. Not because I think they are superior, but because I like them better, period. You like your V6 or I4 better? Great and I wish you well! BTW, I was reading one of my Stang mags a few weeks ago and read about a guy running 9s in a Fox body Mustang with a I4 turbo. Or the GP that runes 9s with the 3800SC. I am truly impressed by those kinds of things; I still prefer my V8.
Just like it's my opinion that the initial post of this thread is troll bait because of the way it is worded.
------------------ 86 Fiero GT -Stage eleventy billion...(pieces, that is!)
3,4,5,6,8,10,12,16, they're all fine by me. I like no pistons myself Number of cylinders is kindof an arbitrary measurement anyway. Bore, stroke, compression ratio, air-fuel ratio, head design, intake, exhaust, forced induction, others I'm forgetting, everything together creates an engine. Now asking if a specific engine is better than another specific engine for a specific task is a valid question. Something as general as number of cylinders is opinion and preference at best.
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11:07 AM
Alex4mula Member
Posts: 7403 From: Canton, MI US Registered: Dec 1999
I know it's a stereotype, and it doens't include everyone, but here's what I've noticed: just like a lot of short guys adopt a 'bada$$' attitude to compensate for their own insecurities, some people who prefer a smaller engine do the same thing. They feel like they have something to prove.
LOL!!!
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11:21 AM
May 12th, 2007
Will Member
Posts: 14250 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
Originally posted by Oreif: It's great that you have decided on the 3800SC swap. I'm sure it will be exactly what you want. ZZP has done excellent work with 3800SC's and they have an excellent reputation as well. All I ask is that if you want honest "fair minded" answers, information, and opinions about swaps, Don't start off by slamming one especially when most of the facts you posted are inaccurate.
Didn't Dennis do the same kind of trolling when he thought that a turbo 3.4 pushrod was the baddest on the block?
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08:11 AM
Will Member
Posts: 14250 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
You're on crack. A V8 is smoother than any V6. With similar mounting (hard vs. soft) between the two, this would be obvious. Why do you think 3800's have balance shafts? Because they'll shake your teeth out without them.
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08:15 AM
Dennis LaGrua Member
Posts: 15480 From: Hillsborough, NJ U.S.A. Registered: May 2000
Archie: You are a stauch defender of your products and if anyone wants a V8 swap in their Fiero I would gladly refer them to you. You've done it longest and probably have more expereince with V8 Fiero swaps than anyone on this forum. Additionally your custom and kit car work looks excellent. You've often made the point that there is no substitute for displacement and thats still true for cars running in top fuel, top alcohol and other V8 classes. However, there are some of us that are more geared towards an engine swap package that provides the highest horsepower at the least weight while still providing the highest efficiency, best drivability and the best gas mileage. We have two late model V8 powered vehcles in this family and one older Mopar w a superchaged 340. You'd expect the Mopar to get poor mileage and it does but I can also tell you that the modern 5.7L SBC's get lousey mileage. You've also made the statement "how fast do you want to go". In years past this always meant a V8 but we also had $1 a gallon gasoline.. In todays times fours and six cylinder engines have been engineered to new levels and are operating at such high efficiency that we see them running 8's and 9's in the 1/4 mile. So how fast do I want to go? -certainly not faster than this. IMO the gas hungry V8 is destined for obscurity within the next few years and will become a novelty at best. Nothing wrong with a V8 swap if that's what you want but times are a changin and dinosaurs can't live forever. I'm surprised that you haven't picked up on this and begun offering 3800SC , Ecotec , 3.9L and other high tech engine swaps as an alternative.
......destined for obscurity within the next few years and will become a novelty at best. Nothing wrong with a V8 swap if that's what you want but times are a changin and dinosaurs can't live forever.
Isn't that what you told me about carb's back in 2002 when I first posted about building a carb'd 3.4L??? Here it is 5 years later and Holley, Barry Grant, Edelbrock, etc are still making carb's and still turning a very good profit with them.
V-8's will not fade away into obscurity. As long as there are people wanting them, They will be around. Even if gas prices get over $5.00 a gallon there will still be people wanting V-8's. In fact the Ford and Chevy V-8's still have the largest aftermarket. It was assumed back in the mid 90's that they were destined to fade away when the import performance aftermarket started growing very rapidly and yet more than 10 years later it still has not surpassed the V-8 aftermarket. Supply and demand. As long as the demand is there, the supply will always be there.
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03:44 PM
Archie Member
Posts: 9436 From: Las Vegas, NV Registered: Dec 1999
Archie: You are a stauch defender of your products and if anyone wants a V8 swap in their Fiero I would gladly refer them to you. You've done it longest and probably have more expereince with V8 Fiero swaps than anyone on this forum. Additionally your custom and kit car work looks excellent. You've often made the point that there is no substitute for displacement and thats still true for cars running in top fuel, top alcohol and other V8 classes. However, there are some of us that are more geared towards an engine swap package that provides the highest horsepower at the least weight while still providing the highest efficiency, best drivability and the best gas mileage. We have two late model V8 powered vehcles in this family and one older Mopar w a superchaged 340. You'd expect the Mopar to get poor mileage and it does but I can also tell you that the modern 5.7L SBC's get lousey mileage. You've also made the statement "how fast do you want to go". In years past this always meant a V8 but we also had $1 a gallon gasoline.. In todays times fours and six cylinder engines have been engineered to new levels and are operating at such high efficiency that we see them running 8's and 9's in the 1/4 mile. So how fast do I want to go? -certainly not faster than this. IMO the gas hungry V8 is destined for obscurity within the next few years and will become a novelty at best. Nothing wrong with a V8 swap if that's what you want but times are a changin and dinosaurs can't live forever. I'm surprised that you haven't picked up on this and begun offering 3800SC , Ecotec , 3.9L and other high tech engine swaps as an alternative.
Dennis, it would appear that you're a bit annoyed that you haven't been able to draw me into your weak attempt at getting a "V-8 vs whatever" flame war started again.
Maybe you should try again, start another thread to see if you can get me pissed off enough to argue with you (oh wait, I guess you did start another thread).
Maybe you could start another thread yet again about using fish scales to weigh engines, so we can get some real accurate numbers.
Anyway, since I'm here anyway, maybe you'd like to see another one of those dinosaurs that will die off in a couple of years.
Archie
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04:06 PM
Fieroseverywhere Member
Posts: 4242 From: Gresham, Oregon USA Registered: Mar 2006
There is only one way to find out. Decide what the car is being build for and build both engines. Try them both out and then make the decision on your own. It is purely a point of view and thats why I have to agree with eveyone else that you are just going to start one of those threads that will never end because no two people will ever agree completely. What a stupid question. I really couldn't care less what other people think is the best. I will never come back to this thread or others like it. I can't believe I just waisted this much of my life on this. Dennis, I want my time back.
My opinion, like it or not, I don't really care. Lets get back to what people are actually doing to improve the fiero.
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04:36 PM
PFF
System Bot
Dennis LaGrua Member
Posts: 15480 From: Hillsborough, NJ U.S.A. Registered: May 2000
Archie: From your comments you seem hypersentive on the subject. I started this thread as a discuussion to allow both sides of the argument on what the engine swap preference is in todays world. Sure you can shoehorn Corvette engines into a Fiero and if that's what YOU consider state of the art well that's your opinion. However, don't lose sight that there are lots of other opinions on this forum. You certainly are not the foremost authority on this foum and lots of guys have achieved some things here far in excess of your acomplishments . I am not the slighest bit annoyed as you claim, and I have never professed to know it all but you know something,... neither do you.
Isn't that what you told me about carb's back in 2002 when I first posted about building a carb'd 3.4L??? Here it is 5 years later and Holley, Barry Grant, Edelbrock, etc are still making carb's and still turning a very good profit with them.
V-8's will not fade away into obscurity. As long as there are people wanting them, They will be around. Even if gas prices get over $5.00 a gallon there will still be people wanting V-8's. In fact the Ford and Chevy V-8's still have the largest aftermarket. It was assumed back in the mid 90's that they were destined to fade away when the import performance aftermarket started growing very rapidly and yet more than 10 years later it still has not surpassed the V-8 aftermarket. Supply and demand. As long as the demand is there, the supply will always be there.
You are correct, I did refer to a carburetor as a dinosaur technology back in 2002. Perhaps this has something to do with the fact that carbureted engines were discontinued about 25 years ago? and Yes you are correct there is still a market for carburetors on drag race, off road and vintage muscle cars. You also may not know that I own two carbureted engined cars myself. One of these cars my 70 Mopar, gets about 8-10 MPG. It has a roots blower, a 850 DP Hollley and dynos at 502 Horsepower. You can almost hear the fuel being dumped in buckets into this monsterous gas hog. This trend on using carbs in these aftermarket /off road applications may continue. You can certainly make as much peak horsepower w. a carburetor but they are quite illegal for street use on cars that didn't come with one. As for the V8 being a dinosaur. An argument can be made that far fewer are being produced today than ever before. It is likely that V8's will continue as an option on high end luxury and sports cars and if you can afford those cars you can afford the gasoline!! But go to the drags in 2007 and see the changing face of performance cars and you'll see Honda Civics, Mazdas,and Mitsubishis running in the 8's, Grand Prix's running in the 9's and 10's and fast sport compacts galore. In days past you couldn't compete with a four or a six and technology has advanced to the point that smaller high efficiency engines are puuting out horsepower once thought impossible . Just take a look at the Ecotech 4 banger. I'never put down anyones opinion, just stating mine. If you want a V8 that's fine but the point I'm making is that you no longer need a V8 to go fast. True or false?
After reading this thread, I'm curious about one thing: displacement. How come american engines have that huge displacement compared to european engines? It has something to do with engine philosophy and has almost nothing to do with this thread, but it's somewhat interesting anyway. Maybe something to do with the price of fuels?
Anyway, for the sound and wow-factor, a v8 would be nice. For general performance and gas mileage (I want good performance for spirited driving and good or decent gas mileage for the weekend 200-mile trip along the highway at 55mph), some high-revving lightweight engine would probably be my choice. It's a matter of heart vs brain for me and neither seems to be getting the upper hand now that I know there are other v8 alternatives than the SBC which are easier to install (and for which there are transmissions which can be used in the fiero without adapter plates)
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05:52 PM
Oreif Member
Posts: 16460 From: Schaumburg, IL Registered: Jan 2000
You are correct, I did refer to a carburetor as a dinosaur technology back in 2002. Perhaps this has something to do with the fact that carbureted engines were discontinued about 25 years ago? and Yes you are correct there is still a market for carburetors on drag race, off road and vintage muscle cars. You also may not know that I own two carbureted engined cars myself. One of these cars my 70 Mopar, gets about 8-10 MPG. It has a roots blower, a 850 DP Hollley and dynos at 502 Horsepower. You can almost hear the fuel being dumped in buckets into this monsterous gas hog. This trend on using carbs in these aftermarket /off road applications may continue. You can certainly make as much peak horsepower w. a carburetor but they are quite illegal for street use on cars that didn't come with one. As for the V8 being a dinosaur. An argument can be made that far fewer are being produced today than ever before. It is likely that V8's will continue as an option on high end luxury and sports cars and if you can afford those cars you can afford the gasoline!! But go to the drags in 2007 and see the changing face of performance cars and you'll see Honda Civics, Mazdas,and Mitsubishis running in the 8's, Grand Prix's running in the 9's and 10's and fast sport compacts galore. In days past you couldn't compete with a four or a six and technology has advanced to the point that smaller high efficiency engines are puuting out horsepower once thought impossible . Just take a look at the Ecotech 4 banger. I'never put down anyones opinion, just stating mine. If you want a V8 that's fine but the point I'm making is that you no longer need a V8 to go fast. True or false?
True that you don't "need" a V-8 to go fast. I understand your opinion, The only comments I have are first, There are not a lot of the smaller engined cars racing professionally in NHRA competitions and rarely do they qualify for the final day. Yes, there are lots at the local drag nights but very few of them run the times you posted. Maybe it's a geographical thing as I have no idea what types of cars are at the drag strips you attend. Generally around here the smaller engined cars (import and domestic) are a small group and out of that small group only a small percentage gets anywhere near the times you posted. Yes with todays technology smaller engines are producing huge power. But that same technology that allows a Honda 2.4L engine to get 240hp now lets V-8's get 400+ hp. Infinity has a V-6 that gets over 300hp, Cadillac now has a V-8 getting 462hp and the V-8 in the Z06 has 505hp. Whatever technology that is used on the 4's and 6's can (and is) being applied to the new V-8's as well.
Second, I don't know where you get the idea that running a carb'd engine in a car not originally equipped is illegal to drive on public roads. I understand that in some states it is against the rules and regulations of their EPA/emission testing, But some states do make provisions in the case of classic and custom cars. In California my car would be unable to be registered, But here in Illinois, I am exempt from emission testing. That means I am in compliance with the rules and regulations of the IEPA (and I have all the correct paperwork from them stating such) and my car is legally registered and plated for use on public roads.
Finally, As in V-8's being on the decline, There are more production vehicles equipped with V-8's now than there was 14 years ago. If anything V-8 production has increased. The lowest era for V-8's was the mid/late 80's. The reason is technology is making them more efficient.
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08:56 PM
DrDave Member
Posts: 333 From: Port Angeles, Wa. U.S.A. Registered: May 2001
Dennis, I don't understand why you are questioning about this V6 or V8 affair. Eithier "flaming" others about wondering which is best, I just don't see the connection. Haven't you been upgraging fieros for quite some time??
Again, I don't see the "bearing" into this thread....anyone else??
fierogt28
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11:01 PM
May 13th, 2007
Formula88 Member
Posts: 53788 From: Raleigh NC Registered: Jan 2001
Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua: I started this thread as a discuussion to allow both sides of the argument on what the engine swap preference is in todays world.
Dennis, this has got to be one of the most disingenuous threads you've started. This thread was an obvious troll from the beginning. You know damn well you didn't want to share ideas from both sides. You wanted to hear from people who disagree with you so you can tell them they're wrong.
There are lots of great engine swaps, and most of it comes down to personal preference. Why would someone spend $10000 to do an engine swap on a $2000 car? Because they WANT to. Why would someone modify a 4 door Grand Prix grocery getter until it can run sub-10 second quarter miles? Because they WANT to. There's certainly better platforms out there for drag racing than a front wheel drive 4 door sedan.
Hot rodding is and always has been about each person expressing themselves and making their car unique according to their own preferences. That's why you can still buy speed parts for Flathead Fords, and it's why people still put iron V8s in Fieros. It's also why some people choose Quad4s, 3.4 DOHCs, or even the occasional diesel swap.
Lots of people like the 3800SC. And lots of people prefer a V8, be that a 4.9, ZZ4, LS2, Northstar, or whatever else. Deal with it.
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12:41 AM
Jul 29th, 2008
mploucha Member
Posts: 44 From: Canton, Michigan, United States Registered: Jun 2006
Shipping weight of a 3900 is 404 lbs Shipping weight of a ZZ4 is 405 lbs Only difference between the two is the ZZ4 comes without carb and the 3900 has the entire intake and TB on it. The stock 3900 is only 240 hp per Pontiac's website. So 240/6 = 40 40* 8 = 320 hp So thanks for proving that a modern V-6 and a modern V-8 have nearly the same efficiency contrary to what the original author of this thread says.
3900 = 61.5 hp per liter LS2 = 66.6 hp per liter ZZ4 with a carb = 62.2 hp per liter
Now these are normally aspirated, I'm sure Dennis will bring up boosted engines so: Cobalt SS 2.2L SC = 93 hp per liter XLR Northstar SC = 98 hp per liter
Actually the cobalt SS supercharged is a 2.0L which raises it to 102.5 hp per liter and now theres the new 2.0L turbos in the new cobalt SS and solstice, etc pumping out 260 hp. or 130 hp. per liter. The 4 cyl. clearly won here. and with maybe 200 lbs. less weight and better weight distribution.
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09:15 PM
Dennis LaGrua Member
Posts: 15480 From: Hillsborough, NJ U.S.A. Registered: May 2000
Its not January 1st so this post should have been left to rest! With new high tech 4 cylinder engines doing good things from a weight vs HP vs mileage standpoint perhaps we should have said V8-V6-or straight four- which do you prefer and why? There are all kinds of engines being put in Fieros there days. The list would probably number over a dozen choices. . Since we all look for different things from our swaps, one can only answer why they prefer a particular engine for a given application.....cost of engine, cost /availability of repair parts, ease of swap, ease of maintenance, ease of repair, horsepower,weight, torque curve, mileage, appearance/show, mileage, & keeping with curent technology all enter into the equation.
------------------ 87GT - 3800SC Series III engine, 3.4" Pulley, N* TB, LS1 MAF, Flotech Exhaust Autolite 104's Custom CAI 4T65eHD w. custom axles 87GT - 3.4L Turbocharged engine, modified TH125H " I'M ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
People are RETARDED !
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