quote Originally posted by Mr.PBody: If its a 5speed you've got to cut the transcase for the starter IIRC, and if its auto your supposed to use the caddy tranny.

if the 89-92 allante starter is used, no cutting is required...

quote Originally posted by stickpony: no offense orief, i respect you as a member of this community, but there is no way there was only a 30 pound difference. everyone else who has done that swap reports a 150-200 pound difference, depending on the tranny they used....the zz4 is cast iron, and has alot more metal than the stock v6...

The 2.8L weighs 358 lbs (as removed no alt)
The TH125 weighs 135 lbs The torque converter is 45 lbs (full of fluid)
Total weight 538 lbs

The ZZ4 is 404 lbs (iron block, aluminum heads, and intake) Add 4-bbl carb 25 lbs
The V6 4-spd is 74 lbs, 35lbs for clutch and plate
Total weight 568 lbs

The ZZ4 weight has been confirmed by two sources. GM's shipping weight and Rockcrawl weighed it and it posted on his website.
Rockcrawl has most of the other weights also listed on his website.

568 lbs - 538 lbs = 30 lbs (It was also confirmed when the car was weighed before and after the swap.)

An iron headed TPI SBC does weigh a lot more. If I recall a few folks have weighed their V-8 swapped cars and found the difference's varied between 83 and 125 lbs while still using the same transaxle. Tom Corey measured a 130 lbs difference in his car with a ZZ3. Remember I lost 71 lbs just swapping from the auto to the 4-spd manual + the A/C compressor is gone.
Yes certain engines are heavier, but some engines are actually lighter than most think.
The 2.5L is only 310 lbs so there would be another 50lbs gain if they went from a 2.5L to a V-8 as opposed from a 2.8L.

A 350 H.O. weighs 475 lbs (iron heads)
An LS1 weighs 385 lbs (as removed with brackets and such)
A getrag 5-spd is 78 lbs.
A 4T40 is around 150 lbs

quote Originally posted by NickD3.4: I think what you need to look when choosing an engine, is what do you want your Fiero to feel like? What I mean is, with a V8 you will have lot of power, and torq, but it is heavy, and will throw the balance of the car of from its original feel, unless you do some serious suspension upgrading, even then though, you've got a anchor in the back. It can be a fine balance of weight VS power. There is such a thing as too much torq, or power, etc. thats all. If all you want is a dragster, then who cares about the handling right? well if you want something with speed, and NOT alot of weight in the back, I would say, 3800 SC, or a 3.4 V6 turbo charged. A aluminum LS is an option, but now were talking $$$. I rode in my buddy's car with a 3800 SC. It was my first time in one...wow, I was impressed. The fast and furious crowd would get smoked by this thing.

Nick, Your point of weight is actually incorrect. As you can see in my response to stickpony, My car only gained 30 lbs of weight over stock. I race it on Road Courses quite a few times duing the summer and handling has not been affected by much at all from the weight. A 3800SC weighs around 445 lbs, A 4T65HD weighs in at 170 lbs, Add in a torque converter and now the drive train weighs 660 lbs if they go with an auto.

If weight was as large of a hinderence to handling on a mid-engine platform like a Fiero as many make it out to be, Then the 3800SC's should handle very badly. The 3.4DOHC engines themselves weigh 492 lbs so these swaps should really be bad.
I have not seen anyone complain that their 3800SC or 3.4DOHC has caused their car to handle badly. I also know of at least one 3800SC with the 4T65 auto that has run around the road courses and has no complaints that the swap weight affected his handling.

I will say that with a V-8 on a track the handling does change only because the low end torque of a V-8. You do have to re-learn how much throttle you need because with all the low end torque it is very easy to give it too much throttle and lose it. Many may think it's the weight causing it, But in reality it's the power. There are two corners on one of the road courses that I run on where with the stock V-6 I was able to basically floor the throttle right at the apex and accel out of the corner. With the V-8, I cannot do it. The rear would break free. Not because of weight, but because of the power. I still go around the corners at the same MPH as I did before, I just use a lot less throttle. (I do go faster on the straightways now. ) I also believe that going from a 2.8L to a 3800SC will also require you to re-learn the throttle due to the increased power as well.

Bottom line to my point is A V-8 isn't as heavy as many think and a 3800SC isn't as light as most people think.
Weight of a swap does not vary as much as folks think. While weight does affect handling, On mid-engine chassis it's affects are minimal with the small difference's we are talking about. (30 to 200lbs)

Think of it this way, How much worse does your Fiero handle between you driving by yourself and You driving with a 175 lbs friend in the passenger seat? Most weight gained when doing a swap is forward of the rear axle's just like adding a passenger in the car. If a 175lbs friend makes your can handle badly then the suspension is worn. Before doing the swap you would need to replace all the worn parts on your suspension because ANY swap will cause the car to handle badly atop a worn suspension.

Here are some cars with their weights:
See https://www.fiero.nl/forum/A...030204-2-027961.html
Tom Corey V-8 5-spd = 2880
V8 Archie swapped a V-8 into a 4-cyl car before = 2620 after = 2780 Diff = 160 lbs
LS1swap with an LS1 = 2900
Hugh with ZZ3 with longitudal 425 = 3400
Hugh 3800SC with 4T60E = 3160

https://www.fiero.nl/forum/A...070315-2-076800.html
Crazyd 1988 GT V-8 5-spd = 3136
Doug Chase stock 1988 Formula = 2956
Doug weighed both cars on the same scale the same day.

FYI ~ My cars weighs 2870 per the dyno shop. Same shop before swap had my car at 2840.

[This message has been edited by Oreif (edited 03-02-2008).]

quote Originally posted by Oreif: The 2.8L weighs 358 lbs (as removed no alt) The TH125 weighs 135 lbs The torque converter is 45 lbs (full of fluid) Total weight 538 lbs The ZZ4 is 404 lbs (iron block, aluminum heads, and intake) Add 4-bbl carb 25 lbs The V6 4-spd is 74 lbs, 35lbs for clutch and plate Total weight 568 lbs The ZZ4 weight has been confirmed by two sources. GM's shipping weight and Rockcrawl weighed it and it posted on his website. Rockcrawl has most of the other weights also listed on his website. 568 lbs - 538 lbs = 30 lbs (It was also confirmed when the car was weighed before and after the swap.)

There's a whole lot that goes into an engine's weight.
GM Powertrain lists the shipping weights for BOTH the L37 Northstar and LS4 Gen IV engine approximately 430 lbs.
http://media.gm.com/us/powe...emium%20V/08_L37.xls
http://media.gm.com/us/powe...0IV%20Car/08_LS4.xls

IIRC, Rockcrawl says that a Northstar is in the 480 range. Darth Fiero says that an LS4 is also high 400's. Who's right? That depends on the relative state of completeness in which engines are weighed. Without a complete and explicit list of the components included, engine weight numbers are useless and impossible to compare.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 03-02-2008).]

What really matters is the weight before the swap & after the swap.

Dave has given several examples of before & after weight.

Some people just assume that an engine that has only 6 cylinders is lighter than an engine that has 8 cylinders.

What really matters is the weight before the swap & after the swap.

Shipping weight for a crate engine means nothing compared to a good honest before & after weight. Shipping weight for a crate engine for the most part includes the weight of the crate it's packed in or the pallet it's sitting on. I've seen some crate engines come in crates that weighed more than 100# 7 others that came on pallets that weighed less than 20#. Shipping weight, as a comparison between different crate engines, is also is subject to variations based on what is exactly included with that crate engine that is also going to be used in the swap.

What really matters is the weight before the swap & after the swap.

I buy new crate engines all the time, I know what comes on them. Many of the items that come on them are not used in the Fiero swap & are replaced by other parts from my kit that also happen to be lighter. On a ZZ4 crate engine, we remove the Harmonic Balancer, Waterpump, starter & flexplate within minutes after they are taken out of the crate. I doubt if there are many people here on this Forum who've actually bought a new crate NStar or 3800SC so we could ask them how much the crate weighed or what actually came with their engine.

What really matters is the weight before the swap & after the swap.

You can talk shipping weights all day long to support or disprove any data & it's all just bench racing. Oreif has supplied Who, What, Where & When numbers taken from trusted Fiero people that we all know.

There is enough actual before & after data that we no longer have to reverse calculate a weight based on published shipping weights.

What really matters is the weight before the swap & after the swap.

Archie

One of the heaviest swaps you can do is an automatic 3800SC. It's an all cast iron engine, with a supercharger on top of it, and a 200 lb transmission. (a Northstar with a 300 lb 4t80 is heavier, but that's not being compared here). Yet, you don't hear people complaining about how bad their 3800SC handles.

People love to speculate when they have no real world experience. The biggest differences between a 3800SC and a V8 are going to be how it feels driving it. Both can be made to make just about as much power as you want. Drive one of each and go with whichever one puts the biggest smile on your face.

[This message has been edited by Formula88 (edited 03-02-2008).]

My opinion of the V8 changes on a daily basis....
Every other day I want to pull out my V8 and drop something else in there....and then I get days like today.............
..........
So there I was......driving like a normal day down to the local Home Depot. When all of a sudden a 1969 Yenko Camaro pulled up next to me at the light. The sound that car made just made me drool. Even if a 3800s/c can whup the pants off that car, there is no sound like a heavily cammed V8 with a loud exhaust....much like my V8 Fiero....(except the Weber carburetors smooth out a lot of the cam's overlap-dang)
Just my $0.02
Dave

------------------

1987 GT (my toy-see above), 1987 GT (wife's toy), 1986 SE soon to be VR6, certified master technician/shop owner
www.njautobahn.com

quote Originally posted by Archie: What really matters is the weight before the swap & after the swap. Dave has given several examples of before & after weight. Some people just assume that an engine that has only 6 cylinders is lighter than an engine that has 8 cylinders. What really matters is the weight before the swap & after the swap. Shipping weight for a crate engine means nothing compared to a good honest before & after weight. Shipping weight for a crate engine for the most part includes the weight of the crate it's packed in or the pallet it's sitting on. I've seen some crate engines come in crates that weighed more than 100# 7 others that came on pallets that weighed less than 20#. Shipping weight, as a comparison between different crate engines, is also is subject to variations based on what is exactly included with that crate engine that is also going to be used in the swap. What really matters is the weight before the swap & after the swap. I buy new crate engines all the time, I know what comes on them. Many of the items that come on them are not used in the Fiero swap & are replaced by other parts from my kit that also happen to be lighter. On a ZZ4 crate engine, we remove the Harmonic Balancer, Waterpump, starter & flexplate within minutes after they are taken out of the crate. I doubt if there are many people here on this Forum who've actually bought a new crate NStar or 3800SC so we could ask them how much the crate weighed or what actually came with their engine. What really matters is the weight before the swap & after the swap. You can talk shipping weights all day long to support or disprove any data & it's all just bench racing. Oreif has supplied Who, What, Where & When numbers taken from trusted Fiero people that we all know. There is enough actual before & after data that we no longer have to reverse calculate a weight based on published shipping weights. What really matters is the weight before the swap & after the swap. Archie

I think what Archie is trying to say is that all that really matters is the weight before the swap & after the swap.

[This message has been edited by Saxman (edited 03-02-2008).]

will the North star mount right up to the cradle without any mods? I know it will bolt to the manual tranny, but are the motor mount locations the same?

quote Originally posted by Saxman: I think what Archie is trying to say is that all that really matters is the weight before the swap & after the swap.

I dont know, it seemed a bit vague

[This message has been edited by AutoTech (edited 03-02-2008).]

quote Originally posted by Will: Who's right? That depends on the relative state of completeness in which engines are weighed. Without a complete and explicit list of the components included, engine weight numbers are useless and impossible to compare.

I agree that the actual weights can vary by component's and accessories installed, But regardless of that, I provided weights of vehicles with certain completed swaps and a few before and after weights. That alone should provide enough data on the weight subject.

My personal choices would be either a V8 or a 60-degree V6. Because IMO, the GM 90-degree V6 sounds like crap. I don't like the harmonics (or rather, the lack thereof) in the exhaust note.

That's totally subjective, but is my honest opinion.

[This message has been edited by Blacktree (edited 03-02-2008).]

I've also seen engine preference go as much with what engine a person has familiarity and a personal preference for as cost, power output, and ease of getting parts and maintennance (N*, we're looking at you). For example, in my area of the country, you can get all of the 3800NA's, 4.9's and 3.4TDC's that you can eat, but good luck finding anything with a supercharger on it stock at the boneyard. I was leaning hard toward a 3800 swap until I found the 4.9 and found how much of the original electronics you can use--so it's as much up to the driver's personal preference as hard performance numbers.

quote Originally posted by Oreif: Here are some cars with their weights: See https://www.fiero.nl/forum/A...030204-2-027961.html Tom Corey V-8 5-spd = 2880 V8 Archie swapped a V-8 into a 4-cyl car before = 2620 after = 2780 Diff = 160 lbs LS1swap with an LS1 = 2900 Hugh with ZZ3 with longitudal 425 = 3400 Hugh 3800SC with 4T60E = 3160 https://www.fiero.nl/forum/A...070315-2-076800.html Crazyd 1988 GT V-8 5-spd = 3136 Doug Chase stock 1988 Formula = 2956 Doug weighed both cars on the same scale the same day. FYI ~ My cars weighs 2870 per the dyno shop. Same shop before swap had my car at 2840.

if an ho 350 weighs 475, you mean to tell me aluminum heads reduces that engien to 404? a 71 pound reduction in the cylinder heads alone? that doesnt add up to me. a reduction 30-40 pounds i could see

again, you arent specifying with accessories or without/...
anyways, a pointless argument. there werre no weights listed on rockcrawl's site, and i cant seem to find a single confirmed weight for the zz4, so you win this arguement..when i shipped a muncie 4 speed to someone, i weighed it on my house scale, it came to 88 pounds

a stock 88 GT weighs 2735 according to this page:

http://home.xnet.com/~paulv...ceGuideSpecsOnly.pdf

and a v8 5 speed weighs 3136, according to what you posted above, and that guy has a webpage that posts the weigh-in sheets..

so where is the 400 pound discrepency?

mute point.. all the weights are off in my opinion.. nobody specifies which options they have, how many accessories are on the engine.. i just knwo that the engine itself weighs considerably more, EVEN with aluminum heads.. two more cylinders, and a much heavier crank, not to mention the engien is 90 degrees, not 60 degrees.

ohhh and what about gasoline? a gallon of gas is 8 pounds. the fiero tank holds about 12-14 gallons, no? poetentially over another 100 pounds of weight differential.

[This message has been edited by stickpony (edited 03-03-2008).]

quote Originally posted by Blacktree: My personal choices would be either a V8 or a 60-degree V6.

60* FTW!!!

Are all these weights that are being thrown around with or without the driver in the car? I weighed my car about a year ago at the track with me in it and it came to 3095#, which 230# of that is my weight. That brings my car, which is a base 88 Coupe:

w/ 3800SC/65E
w/ Aero package
Stage 2 Scoops with the door/fender part fiberglassed on
Modded hood that has been fiberglasses
16 inch wheels
IC w/ Heat exchanger

to 2865#. Not forsure how much the Aero parts/hood/wheels/scoops add to the car but I am thinking around a 100# or so. I will be changing up a few things here soon so my car will be lighter afterwards.

Well guys....Around here (southwest kansas, AKA-HELL) all they have are the 3800N/A,4.9, 350, 305 and N*. All of these engine have around 79 - 150K on them....So it is another factor in my decision making.

[This message has been edited by deathangel (edited 03-03-2008).]

quote Originally posted by deathangel: Well guys....Around here (southwest kansas, AKA-HELL) all they have are the 3800N/A,4.9, 350, 305 and N*. All of these engine have around 79 - 150K on them....So it is another factor in my decision making.

You need to use:

http://car-part.com/index.htm

I just did a search and there where several 3800SC that came up in KS. I see you like close to the OK stateline so you can also look up OK for a motor. You may have to take a 5 hour trip to get the motor but well worth the trip. If you have no way to get the motor, you can rent a truck for the day for cheap. Not to mention most compamies will ship motors.

quote Originally posted by Oreif: I agree that the actual weights can vary by component's and accessories installed, But regardless of that, I provided weights of vehicles with certain completed swaps and a few before and after weights. That alone should provide enough data on the weight subject.

There's a lot that goes into a swap. It's very easy to add more weight than necessary via dress-up items for both the engine and the engine bay, removal of unused equipment and wiring varies, etc. Moving the battery to the front, for instance adds 10-15# of copper to the car in the form of extended batter cables.

The same caution applies. Unless you know everything that was done with someone's swap, it's difficult at best to come up with an accurate assessment of what "XXX engine swap" weighs.

quote Originally posted by stickpony: if an ho 350 weighs 475, you mean to tell me aluminum heads reduces that engien to 404? a 71 pound reduction in the cylinder heads alone? that doesnt add up to me. a reduction 30-40 pounds i could see again, you arent specifying with accessories or without/... anyways, a pointless argument. there werre no weights listed on rockcrawl's site, and i cant seem to find a single confirmed weight for the zz4, so you win this arguement..when i shipped a muncie 4 speed to someone, i weighed it on my house scale, it came to 88 pounds

Actually, Many of the internal parts are different as well. According to GM's crate engine website, The valve train weight was cut in half by using lighter materials, The rods are lighter by using powdered metal connecting rods and hypereutectic flat top pistons. So the weight reduction over the H.O. isn't just the heads.
I just went to rockcrawls It seems the second index page is down, But here is the direct page: http://www.fieroaddiction.com/weights.htm

I did get the weight of the 4-spd incorrect. The weights I posted are just calculations based on the shipping weight of the ZZ4 and the actual known weight of my vehicle.

quote Originally posted by stickpony: a stock 88 GT weighs 2735 according to this page: http://home.xnet.com/~paulv...ceGuideSpecsOnly.pdf and a v8 5 speed weighs 3136, according to what you posted above, and that guy has a webpage that posts the weigh-in sheets.. so where is the 400 pound discrepency?

The weight in the link is a no optioned dry weight of a GT. Add in options and the weight goes up. They have a 1988 Formula at 2679 lbs yet Doug weighed his STOCK 88 Formula at 2956 lbs. Add in all the coolant, oils, and any options like A/C, power windows etc and that appears to add in 277 lbs. to make it weigh what Doug has posted.

As for Crazyd's 88 GT Lets go with the 2735 lbs on the list, The same options as Doug's Formula which appears to be about 277 lbs so now you are at 3012 lbs. The vehicle weighed 3136 lbs minus the 3012 lbs leaves 124 lbs. Now Crazyd also has larger aftermarket wheels/tires (weight unknown). So the 124 lbs gain includes the ZZ4 engine, The aftermarket EFI system (which weighs more than a carb) and aftermarket wheels and tires. So we now know that Crazyd gained about 124 lbs doing the swap and any other mods.

REF: https://www.fiero.nl/forum/A...070315-2-076800.html

quote Originally posted by stickpony: mute point.. all the weights are off in my opinion.. nobody specifies which options they have, how many accessories are on the engine.. i just knwo that the engine itself weighs considerably more, EVEN with aluminum heads.. two more cylinders, and a much heavier crank, not to mention the engien is 90 degrees, not 60 degrees. ohhh and what about gasoline? a gallon of gas is 8 pounds. the fiero tank holds about 12-14 gallons, no? poetentially over another 100 pounds of weight differential.

Fine then lets forget the actual weight of the individual items like engines and transaxles, dry, shipping, options, configuration, etc.

According to the listing a 1986 SE weighs 2592 lbs, My vehicle weighed 2840 lbs before the swap. That weight included original options, (A/C, Auto transaxle, sunroof, power windows, etc.) fluids, lighter wheels with bigger tires, a larger stereo system, larger sway bars, and whatever else I did to the car (body mods) over the years. The car went to Archie's and had the 4-spd installed, The ZZ4 installed, oh and I almost forgot, Archie's big brake kit was installed. It was then weighed on the SAME scale at the same shop (2 years later) and the car now weighs 2870 lbs. So regardless what the actual individual parts weigh, My car is only 30 lbs heavier in April of 2006 than it was in May of 2004 as verified via the same scale.


So all that matters is the actual weight of the vehicle, Right?

Tom Corey has a 1987 GT with a ZZ3 V-8 and his weighs 2880 lbs
Hugh has a 1988 GT with a 3800SC and a 4T60E and his weighs 3160 lbs
Crazyd has a 1988 GT with a V-8 and his weighs 3136 lbs
My 1986 SE with a ZZ4 and 4-spd weighs 2870 lbs
V8 Archie had a notchback that weighed 2780 lbs

So how can V-8 swaps weight affect handling but not a 3800SC's ?

Does anyone else have weights of their car? If you post your weight, Please post stock or which swap info.

quote Originally posted by Oreif: Does anyone else have weights of their car? If you post your weight, Please post stock or which swap info.

I posted this above but since you asked.
Are all these weights that are being thrown around with or without the driver in the car? I weighed my car about a year ago at the track with me in it and it came to 3095#, which 230# of that is my weight. That brings my car, which is a base 88 Coupe:

w/ 3800SC/65E
w/ Aero package
Stage 2 Scoops with the door/fender part fiberglassed on
Modded hood that has been fiberglasses
16 inch wheels
IC w/ Heat exchanger

to 2865#. Not forsure how much the Aero parts/hood/wheels/scoops add to the car but I am thinking around a 100# or so. I will be changing up a few things here soon so my car will be lighter afterwards.

quote Originally posted by Oreif: Fine then lets forget the actual weight of the individual items like engines and transaxles, dry, shipping, options, configuration, etc. According to the listing a 1986 SE weighs 2592 lbs, My vehicle weighed 2840 lbs before the swap. That weight included original options, (A/C, Auto transaxle, sunroof, power windows, etc.) fluids, lighter wheels with bigger tires, a larger stereo system, larger sway bars, and whatever else I did to the car (body mods) over the years. The car went to Archie's and had the 4-spd installed, The ZZ4 installed, oh and I almost forgot, Archie's big brake kit was installed. It was then weighed on the SAME scale at the same shop (2 years later) and the car now weighs 2870 lbs. So regardless what the actual individual parts weigh, My car is only 30 lbs heavier in April of 2006 than it was in May of 2004 as verified via the same scale. So all that matters is the actual weight of the vehicle, Right? Tom Corey has a 1987 GT with a ZZ3 V-8 and his weighs 2880 lbs Hugh has a 1988 GT with a 3800SC and a 4T60E and his weighs 3160 lbs Crazyd has a 1988 GT with a V-8 and his weighs 3136 lbs My 1986 SE with a ZZ4 and 4-spd weighs 2870 lbs V8 Archie had a notchback that weighed 2780 lbs So how can V-8 swaps weight affect handling but not a 3800SC's ? Does anyone else have weights of their car? If you post your weight, Please post stock or which swap info.

You are comparing v8 cars w/ manuals transmissions, which are less suited to the trans than a 3800sc. How about comparing auto v8's with a 4t65e-hd attached?

quote Originally posted by RideZiLightning: You are comparing v8 cars w/ manuals transmissions, which are less suited to the trans than a 3800sc. How about comparing auto v8's with a 4t65e-hd attached?

I understand what you mean, But as far as I know nobody has done a V-8 with the 4T65E. I know a few have done 3800SC's with 5-spds, Do we have someone with this set-up who can get their car weighed? Since even stock weight can vary by year and options, does anyone have car weights of stock vehicles? (besides the GM rated weight)


I see that MstangsBware has posted his at 2865 lbs. which is a 3800SC and the 4T65E. (sorry I missed the earlier post.)
As far as I know the weights being posted are without driver. Well I know that my car, Hugh's car. Doug's Formula, and Crazyd's car were done without driver.

This was good reading. My conclusion after all is that when it comes to "typical" installations of an SBC or a 3800SC there is basically no weight advantage for neither. So let's learn from this and stop posting innacurate info

quote Originally posted by Oreif: Granted, the actual weight of a XXX swap is hard to make accurate unless things were weighed before and after as well as an accurate accounting of what was done. But knowing the actual weights of swapped vehicles as noted above, In your opinion, would you say that a SBC V-8 swap weights are significantly more than a the V-6 swap weights to affect handling as bad as portrayed by the others previous posts?

I've never said the same things that others do about weight. Weight slows any car down, but it is an independent variable in chassis tuning. Anyone who significantly changes their car's weight without re-evaluating their suspension tuning deserves the result they get. The really essential thing to know about weight is how it relates to the compromises implicit in the desired end state for the vehicle. For instance, I like AWD. One of my friends tells me that it's just extra weight, another that it's just extra maintenance, but I see it as extra controllability, or extra power to the pavement. In many cases, the extra weight and maintenance penalty you pay for a system like AWD may be worth it because of the benefits in other areas; in other cases it may not. Whether it's worth it or not depends on how you want to use the vehicle and what you want it to be. There's nothing wrong with adding the 200 Lbs to the car that a TH425L swap may add if that's acceptable because of the characteristics you want from that transmission.

The entire topic of weight is nebulous because we don't have ANY good data. While you may be reasonably confident that some of the weights you quoted are without driver, do you know what fuel state the cars were in? An 11 gallon fuel fill adds a range of about 77 pounds to the weight of the car, yet these weights are quoted to the single pound. The weight of a car simply can not be measured that precisely unless a plethora of measurement conditions are known. This has already bitten you in your error of ~15 PERCENT in your calculated estimate of the weight of a component (transmission) derived from vehicle weights, yet that same magnitude of error at the vehicle level is 0.5%. It's not even repeatably measurable.

Basically, my point is that there isn't good enough data out there to really nail down a lot of the items of weight that people want to nail down.

It can be said that so-and-so's car weighs XXX before and after the swap, but all that really says is that was the number the display read for that car on that day in an unrecorded state. Put it on a different scale on a different day with a different fuel level and you'll get a different number. Even the aero loading from a strong breeze is going to affect the scale measurement to the tune of single digits. Do you know whether any of the scales involved were inside or outside?

My contention is that you really can't repeatably weigh a car to an accuracy of better than 25-30 lbs (ie, 1%) without MUCH more specialized equipment/procedures than what has been posted in this thread.

So the discussion of swap weights in anything more than a general way is moot.

Using the search I found these weights:

I only used posts that the poster stated was on an actual scale. As to the actual accuracy of the scale used or the posters statements, that is up for you to believe.

Rickker ~ '88GT was still in stock form, (2.8, Getrag), 2800 lbs
Same car with a 3800SC = 2860

Californiakid ~ 88Gt/5spd Total: 2817

Steven Snyder ~ fully stripped 88 Coupe (no power accessories, just AC) with a 3.4 DOHC weighs 2650

SCCA FIERO ~ stock 87GT 5 speed weighs in at 2,734 lbs. My other 87GT 5 speed with a 3.4 DOHC weighs in at 2,787 lbs

He also has a thread where they weighed numerous cars all on the same day/same scale:
1987 GT power everything, full tank of gas, no spare or jack, trunk cut out. 3400 5 speed Getrag with a turbo and intercooler in the trunk.
Total:2752

1987 GT t-top, stock 2.8, 5 speed Getrag, about 3/8 tank. Power windows, spare and jack installed.
Total: 2734

1987 Coupe converted to GT (No power options). 3800 S2 NA Getrag 5 speed. I think 1/2 tank of gas.
Total: 2745

1985 GT, stock 2.8, stock auto, 17x7 wheels
Total: 2818

1987 SE, stock 2.8, stock auto trans
Total: 2828

1987 GT 3.4 TDC, Getrag 5 speed, power everything, working AC, trunk floor cut out, battery up front, no spare, 1/4 tank of gas.
Total: 2787

Phil ~ My Formula with SC3800/5spd weighs 3068 Lbs including my lard butt(200 lbs) I have air, pw and locks. (So 2868 without driver.)

02SOMFormula ~ '86 GT Fiero has power everything and an A/C, full weight, 2800lbs

Poncho Jim ~ stock 1988 Coupe 2.5L/5-spd The car weighed in at 2601 Lbs empty with about 1/2 tank of gas

So take it for what it's worth.

[This message has been edited by Oreif (edited 03-03-2008).]

quote Originally posted by deathangel: No dont do that...Like I said no flame. But Oreif you do have a point.... I wanted to do a Quad 4 engine but those suckers are hard to fine....BUT I dont know anyone who lives in Kansas with a SC 3800. I would love to drive one....

If you come to the 25th show you could ask for rides. Someone might even say yes!

quote Originally posted by Oreif: Using the search I found these weights: I only used posts that the poster stated was on an actual scale. As to the actual accuracy of the scale used or the posters statements, that is up for you to believe. Rickker ~ '88GT was still in stock form, (2.8, Getrag), 2800 lbs Same car with a 3800SC = 2860 Californiakid ~ 88Gt/5spd Total: 2817 Steven Snyder ~ fully stripped 88 Coupe (no power accessories, just AC) with a 3.4 DOHC weighs 2650 SCCA FIERO ~ stock 87GT 5 speed weighs in at 2,734 lbs. My other 87GT 5 speed with a 3.4 DOHC weighs in at 2,787 lbs He also has a thread where they weighed numerous cars all on the same day/same scale: 1987 GT power everything, full tank of gas, no spare or jack, trunk cut out. 3400 5 speed Getrag with a turbo and intercooler in the trunk. Total:2752 1987 GT t-top, stock 2.8, 5 speed Getrag, about 3/8 tank. Power windows, spare and jack installed. Total: 2734 1987 Coupe converted to GT (No power options). 3800 S2 NA Getrag 5 speed. I think 1/2 tank of gas. Total: 2745 1985 GT, stock 2.8, stock auto, 17x7 wheels Total: 2818 1987 SE, stock 2.8, stock auto trans Total: 2828 1987 GT 3.4 TDC, Getrag 5 speed, power everything, working AC, trunk floor cut out, battery up front, no spare, 1/4 tank of gas. Total: 2787 Phil ~ My Formula with SC3800/5spd weighs 3068 Lbs including my lard butt(200 lbs) I have air, pw and locks. (So 2868 without driver.) 02SOMFormula ~ '86 GT Fiero has power everything and an A/C, full weight, 2800lbs Poncho Jim ~ stock 1988 Coupe 2.5L/5-spd The car weighed in at 2601 Lbs empty with about 1/2 tank of gas So take it for what it's worth.

thats very interesting that they are all very similar in weight ^_^

When it comes for bang for your buck or easier installation the 3800 is a much better swap. The only reason to do a V8 swap is for the wow factor.

Flame resistant disclaimer
“The proceeding was the sole opinion of LS1swap and is backed by no scientific data your opinions may vary” LOL

------------------
LS1 v8 T-Top 87 GT

http://www.acxunlimited.com/ls1swap.htm

No, i didnt hack ls1swaps account to say that..

Pretty much sums up the gist of swapping v8's.

quote Originally posted by Oreif: I understand what you mean, But as far as I know nobody has done a V-8 with the 4T65E....

Hmmm, wonder if Darth Fiero has weighed the LS4 - 4T65e-HD swap that he did for BLKCOFY?

I did some googling, and came up with the following stats on the 2004 GP GTP(Comp G) and 2005 GP GXP weights:

2004 GTP with the 3800SC curb weight was 3583 lb (as quoted by Canadian Driver)
2005 GXP with LS4 curb weight was 3583 lb (as quoted by Canadian Driver)

Both test vehicles were optioned up, weight was the same, GXP came with the 4T65e-HD trans, GTP with the 4T65e trans, probably minimal weight differences between the two.

cheers

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: Pretty much sums up the gist of swapping v8's.

Nope, THIS pretty much sums up the gist of swapping V-8's

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: I am waiting for the manual v8 guys to accept my challenge, I will race for whatever, money/pinks, heads up best of 5 races pinks style anywhere in the midwest.

quote Originally posted by Archie: I never saw that challenge before, but you're on. We will be racing for $5000.00 cash, just like on Pinks. (bring cash or Money Order) We will be racing at Great Lakes Dragaway. We can run in late April or early May whatever day you can make it into town. Bring proof that the car you are racing belongs to you. Put up or shut up. Archie

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: On the otherhand, knowing I will take crap for this, but I am not going to call archies bluff here, as I dont have 5000 to risk, nor do I want to take my car into the drag racing direction at the moment. i like driving it around town, and the fact I have already gotten back what I invested in it.

I have two 87 Gt's. The first is a stock 2.8-5-speed. The second is a cast iron 350-5-speed. I notice no difference in the handling except the 350 has poly bushings and is tighter feeling. The 350 does not feel noticeably heavier. The only differences besides the engine is the battery relocated to the front and no spare tire in the 350, and the 350 has a sunroof and the 2.8 is a hardtop. The 350 gets 20 mpg city and 24 mpg highway for me, and that is not babying the 4 barrel carb. The 2.8 usually does about 25-26 city and 28-29 highway, although I have hit 30 mpg with it a few times on trips.

------------------
Tom
Suffolk, Va
87 Gt 350-5spd

[This message has been edited by gt7 (edited 03-04-2008).]

So what would I have to do to my SC 3800 to beat a V8 mustang for instance

quote Originally posted by Archie:

No, that just shows that Scott backed down to a race with terms who couldn't meet

quote Originally posted by RideZiLightning: Depends on the mustang, but most, you'll clean the floor with

I dont have any trouble even with my little 2.8 turbo.

quote Originally posted by RideZiLightning: No, that just shows that Scott backed down to a race with terms who couldn't meet

Pretty hard to not meet those terms

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: I am waiting for the manual v8 guys to accept my challenge, I will race for whatever, money/pinks, heads up best of 5 races pinks style anywhere in the midwest.

[This message has been edited by Jake_Dragon (edited 03-04-2008).]

quote Originally posted by TiredGXP: Hmmm, wonder if Darth Fiero has weighed the LS4 - 4T65e-HD swap that he did for BLKCOFY?

I haven't been following the thread, Is the swap done? Maybe we can post a request to get the car weighed when it's done.

quote Originally posted by deathangel: So what would I have to do to my SC 3800 to beat a V8 mustang for instance

Depends on which Mustang. On average a typical stock newer Mustang GT runs mid-high 13's, So if you swapped in a series II you would be about as fast. Add a pulley and you will be slightly faster. (low/mid 13's) Add in a cam and pulley with some dyno-tuning and you would be running in the mid 12's and playing with a few Cobra's and GT500's.
The 3800SC has a decent aftermarket for performance parts so going faster is just a matter of selecting the parts.

quote Originally posted by RideZiLightning: No, that just shows that Scott backed down to a race with terms who couldn't meet

But they were HIS terms originally.

Here let me refresh your memory:

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: I will race for whatever, money/pinks, heads up best of 5 races pinks style anywhere in the midwest.

His response to the acceptance was:

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: but I am not going to call archies bluff here, as I dont have 5000 to risk, nor do I want to take my car into the drag racing direction at the moment.

So what terms couldn't Scott meet?