quote Originally posted by cptsnoopy: Thanks Russ, I had not looked at aaron88's thread in quite some time. It has gone on and on... that looks like some good info. I don't know if I can use it on the Aurora or not but I can compare. I am pretty sure my engine has a problem on number 8 cylinder but I am not sure what it is. I am going to run it as is for awhile to see how bad the problem is. Since I have not finished the project I have not used the WBO2 wide band sensor yet. I bought it DIY and put it together after reading Ryan's WBO2 thread https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Archives/Archive-000002/HTML/20050410-1-046503.html. It cost about $220 for the kit and the sensor if I remember right. It seemed like the one that Allen sold with the Holley was much more. I think Ryan has had pretty good luck with his. I also believe that he is using the stock exhaust manifolds. Shoot me a PM If your interested in borrowing it, it will be several more months before I get a chance to try it out on the 88 Fiero.

hey thanks for the offer on the WB. I'll keep that in mind. I have a lot to learn about computer controled tuning. it's a good thing winter is coming so I'll have time to devote to it . and btw I just happen to have a long block L37 that I picked up very cheep if you should find you need one

Russ

Ditto on the computer controlled tunning. I have not done any. with the wbo2 you get to see exactly what the a/f ratio is doing and if I remember Ryan's comments correctly you can use it with the holley as a wb sensor. after reading the holley instructions, it looked like it would be a bunch easier with the wb installed. i think you can use it to get a good base map setup and then you could use the narrow band. however, as stated above, it's all theory to me still.

if I ever get this body swap done i'll get to see if I need the L-37, thank you for the offer.

quote Originally posted by Russ544: cptsnoopy. FOUND IT. I knew I'd seen improved N* Holley maps somewhere. the thing I'd forgotten was that it was on (pssst, keep it quiet) another forum. good for some light reading when you get a spare week or so. PS start on page 12 for the new maps. http://www.fierodrivers.com/forum/index.php?topic=765.165

I believe that someone who isn't very popular here tried those maps and found them to be quite rich...

quote Originally posted by Will: I believe that someone who isn't very popular here tried those maps and found them to be quite rich...

I'm not sure who you're refering to but I'll compare them to my current base maps tomorrow. thanks for the heads up.

quote Originally posted by Russ544: I'm not sure who you're refering to but I'll compare them to my current base maps tomorrow. thanks for the heads up.

Do the initials JM mean anything to you?

quote Originally posted by Will: Do the initials JM mean anything to you?

O boy do they. Jonie Mcconnel. she was a real hottie when we were in high school. Her and I in the rear of a 63 Vette splitwindow is etched in my mind forever

[This message has been edited by Russ544 (edited 09-11-2005).]

A lazy Sunday. I installed a tach today that Archie recalibrated for me for the v-8, did some testing on the oil presure guage and discovered that my wiring is fine but the sensor is bad (strange as it worked with the previous engine), and built a vent for the center console where the Holley computer now resides.
For the vent I robbed an upper dash vent from a parts Fiero and sectioned it down to about 9". The trick in butt welding material this thin is to clamp it down on a piece of steel so it won't burn through. delicate work but actually not that hard. those are studs on each end which were also welded on to the frame.

[This message has been edited by Russ544 (edited 09-11-2005).]

looks great! does the holley run that hot?

quote Originally posted by cptsnoopy: looks great! does the holley run that hot?

No. actually it doesn't feel abnormally hot to the touch. but all electronic gizmos will last longer the cooler they are........ and you know how I like cool things

------------------
"doesn't matter where you've been....... doesn't matter where you're going...... just how cool you look gettin' there."
Fonzy

Well it's been an educational week or 10 days in the land of N. I've learned a few hard lessons in EFI that bear repeating. first and foremost is to never assume that because a test light lights, that it means it's a good circut. use your VOM and pay attention to values. In my case I was having fits with a totally erractic idle condition that would come and go. sometimes the thing would simply go bizerk and no amount of coaxing would bring the "idle" down below ~2500 rpm. I knew there wasn't a vacuum leak as when I seated the IAC and unplugged it it was easy to get the thing to chug along at 600 rpm or so by turning out the throttle plate screw.... plug the IAC in again and the idle would climb back up with periodic sudden drops back to a semi normal idle speed..... then other times the thing would idle pretty well... After several frustrating hours of testing circuts and checking sensors, I was about convinced that the ECU was bad. I called CHRF and spoke with Alan for a half hour or so and we walked through all the maps and engine parameters. he said he thought it was a voltage problem so I agreed to check it just one more time before returning the unit for inspection. I checked the switched B+ to the ecu with the VOM instead of a test light and noticed it was almost 1/2 volt lower than the current B+ at the battery. it didn't take much backtracking to locate the problem as the ignition switch itself. it had worked fine for the previous engine with HEI distributor, but the efi wants to see near perfect connections or it gets confused. the new switch is now installed and the IAC seems to be controlling the idle speed just like it should. I still need to work on the fuel maps in that area, but it's obvious that the IAC is now trying to control the rpms where before it was totally spastic.
Maybe tomorrow I can get to the task of fine tuning the maps in earnest. if things do go well I might even get that much anticipated test drive

[This message has been edited by Russ544 (edited 09-16-2005).]

THE TEST DRIVE:

It definitely has potential . I warmed up the car today until it went closed loop. shut it off... started it again.... revved er up. the idle problem seems to be gone for good. if anything it's idling a tad slow, but at least the IAC is taking charge now in a positive way. It sounded so much better that I just optimistically headed down the road to my business ~3 miles away. I had the laptop on the seat, but it's pretty hard to read at that angle and distance, and stay between the lines at the same time, so I just paid attention to my seat-of- the-pants computer instead. As everyone else who's using the Holley computer has observed as well, the "base" tune leaves something to be desired. I have no clue as to why this is, as it seems like a stock engine would be easy enough to provide spot on base maps for, but what do I know. regardless..... I saw a need to build a stand for my laptop so I could monitor the system easier for tuning, so I spent a couple hours building that and still got in a 1/2 hour or so of tuning time before the rains came in earnest and the dinner bell began to ring. you might also notice that I mounted the computer plug in the location of the Fiero cig lighter for easy attachment. The computer stand has two wide feet that sit one on the seat and one on the floor for stability wile driving.

As delivered, most of the stock fuel map is lean to the point of hesitation and backfiring under acceleration at certain rpms. the nice part is that this system shows you what adjustment is needed and makes it easy to do. It doesn't take long to get pretty quick at changing the correct regions of the fuel grid. The tuning portion of this project is likely to still take a fair bit of time to perfect however, as I still have a lot to learn about the finer points, but it's certainly drivable now and like I said, it has plenty of potential. the torque is obviously there, and the drivability just needs some tweaking to be really nice.With the story line turning to computer issues lately I've almost forgotten to report on the clutch and shifting. both work excellent! The clutch is nice and firm without being harsh or chattery like the Spec unit was. the shifting is a little stiffer than stock, most likely due to the sharper bends in the shift cables, but shifting is very smooth and positive. the muffler choice (Dynomax super turbo) was fantastic as well. a nice mellow yet throaty sound. Maybe I'll put the radio back in now

[This message has been edited by Russ544 (edited 09-16-2005).]

Great to hear that it's running.

Do you have the pro software upgrade for the Holley? That can handle a wide band O2.

Ain't tuning fun?

quote Originally posted by Will: Great to hear that it's running. Do you have the pro software upgrade for the Holley? That can handle a wide band O2. Ain't tuning fun?

Thanks Will. yes it is rewarding to finally hear it run and know that it actually does . Yes I got the Pro software that can use the wideband O-2 sensor, but to be honest I haven't even looked at the instructions to see why that would be such a benifit..... I guess I should do that hu. ha ha.
Is tuning fun?????? well..... I'm not too sure about that just yet. wires and sensors aren't really what turn my crank, but I'm trying to get a little more up to date. I sure do see the advantages of EFI, but it's still hard for me to change old ways.
============

I felt back in my element today fabricating. I needed a break from wires and keyboards for a wile, and wanted to relocate a couple items to make some room for a cold air/filter box anyway, so out came the saws-all and welder....... ahhhhhhhh... I feel much better already .
Room in the engine bay was used up much quicker than I anticipated during this swap, and when all was said and done there wasn't sufficient room left over for the cold air box that I had planned, to attach to the IMSAs side vents, so a few things had to be re-located. The surge tank just barely fits in it's new location and carefull planning was needed to insure that nothing hit. It's hard to see in this pic but the evap canister is now attached to the left side of the drivers side decklid hinge support. this has opened up a pretty good hole where I should be able to fabricate a fiberglass enclosure for a flat rectangular air filter and have the cold air vent attached to the bottom and flex hose up top joining up with the throttle body. the box itself is an ambitious project, but if it comes out the way I envision it, it should be worth the effort.

After moving the surge tank and evap canister I noticed there was still about 5 square inches of unused space in the engine bay (other than the future home of the cold air box) so of course that space had to be filled right away . I noticed during initial testing that the single dogbone still allowed a bit more movement than desired, so a second one in the "spare" space fit into the plan nicely. after several failed templates I came up with a design that met my requirements, and proceeded to create it in steel. the rubber portion is the other end of the 4 banger unit that I used to make the right side dogbone.

after a bit of spit and polish, and the traditional metallic finish, it was bolted in place to the left end of the rear cyl head.

and the surge tank re-installed

I believe all the engine compartment space is properly filled to capacity now

[This message has been edited by Russ544 (edited 09-19-2005).]

Would you suggest using a relay for the switched B+ ?

When you get time read the section on wbo2 tuning. it gives the impression that you tell the Holley what a/f ratio you want and it does it for you using the wbo2 as a reference. it's been awhile since I read the material but I think that is what it implied.

quote Originally posted by cptsnoopy: Would you suggest using a relay for the switched B+ ? When you get time read the section on wbo2 tuning. it gives the impression that you tell the Holley what a/f ratio you want and it does it for you using the wbo2 as a reference. it's been awhile since I read the material but I think that is what it implied.

No I don't see any need for a relay. I don't know the current draw of the Holly but it would be light. After studying the Fiero wireing diagram I ended up using the existing wire intended to power the Fiero ECM btw. it's pink with black stripe and can be redily accessed at the C-200 plug (the black/white double multi-plug under the rear of the console) by using this wire to feed the Holly ecm, it goes through the Fiero ECM fuse, but there are no other circuts tied to this one so it's clean power.

I'll read that O-2 info tonight when I get home from the salt mine.

Russ

[This message has been edited by Russ544 (edited 09-20-2005).]

Maybe ryan.hess will be able to help since he was using both the nb and then the wb with the holley to tune his N*/auto. He was having issues with the idle mixture if I remember right and the wb helped him fix that where the nb was not working out. My thought is that if you still have to set the values yourself it is sooo much more helpful to know how far from your desired point you are compared to just knowing that you are plus or minus the value you need with no real info on how much. I'll go over the book again and see if there is anything more helpful to offer. I may get lucky sometime this year and have to do a little tuning myself.

11.8 ? I think...

JG

seconds? ya I agree .

I went for a short drive today down to the wreaking yard where I bought the N*. they were blown away to say the least, but have you ever noticed how there's always one dufas in a crowd that opines "they make a kit for that don't they?" . I have come up with a response that seems to shut them up however: "ya .... I made it".

As you can see I spent the day putting things back together and making a support for the decklid out of a front lid support. I've ordered some fiberglass and resin to build the air box with but it hasn't arrived yet.
The tuning is getting a lot better, but I need to devote more time to that soon. even in it's present state of tune this thing is really a blast to drive !! It makes some very cool noises

[This message has been edited by Russ544 (edited 09-23-2005).]

can i buy the kit?

quote Originally posted by cptsnoopy: can i buy the kit?

Sure, no problem............. I'll start work on it as soon as I receive your non-refundable deposit of $20,000.oo , and bill you for the balance when it's done.

Did you realise how involved the N* swap was when you started on yours? how come nobody told me LOL.
worth every minute however. I'm very happy with mine and it was a labor of love.

[This message has been edited by Russ544 (edited 09-23-2005).]

I did not have any idea what I was getting into and it's not nearly what you have done. Now that I have a better idea the 20k would be worth one of your cars. But then it has been a lot of fun and a huge learning process.

I had to think a wile, but I finally found another excuse not to do keyboard tuning today...... I had to change the oil and that meant I had to make an easier way to do that than by dripping 7 1/2 qt of oil down that puny little pvc fitting with it's restrictor baffle and all.

lesse.... I need to wash it now, and then I need to ......

After making a device to hold the clutch slave pushrod in position wile the slave is removed for bleeding (due to the angle my modified bracket created) I had run out of fabrication projects so I had no other project to do except.................... tuning . Actually I'm warming up to it by now. mostly due to the fact that I'm learning how to do it and finally seeing progress. In fact today saw some major progress. the breakthrough came when I realized how much more effective it is to modify the fuel input by using the fuel map graph:


rather than the fuel map itself:

It's hard to see from my poor pics of the owners manual, but for the aspiring Holly tuner the fuel map contains 256 "cells" at each intersection of the RPMs along the bottom of the grid and the MAP sensor input on the left (which signifies the amount of load placed on the engine at the time). Where the engine is running at any given moment is hilighted in a cell. the small scale just above the grid tells you if the O-2 sensor is adding fuel or taking it away in its attempt to maintain a 14.7:1 air/fuel ratio. if it shows too lean you need to raise the number in that cell of the fuel grid. Now this is all happening in real time, so naturally the cells are lighting up like 4th street on Christmas eve., so keeping track of them and remembering what needs to be richer and what needs to be leaner when you pull over to the side of the road can be a challenge to say the least. A knowledgeable co-pilot would be a help, but those are hard to come by .
I floundered around trying to get this thing to run with some degree of smoothness over several sessions without much success until I discovered THE GRID . I'd driven around watching the fuel map for long enough that I pretty much knew what general areas of the map were lean, but jugling the numbers around and keeping a smooth transition over the whole map proved too challenging for me so when I got home I pulled up the grid and started tweeking. A laptop computer mouse is dificult and slow to manuver around the fuel map, but the grid only requires the use of the arrow keys along with shift and cntrl. use the arroqw key to get to the point you want to change, hold down the shift key wile using the up or down arrow to raise that cell one point or hold the cntrl key and use the up or down arrow to move five points. it's SO much easier to creat a smooth map when you have a clear picture of the whole thing that my first attempt proved to be a HUGE improvement in the way the car drives.
by the way Will, I compared the map I'm working on with the map I mentioned the other day and it's actually fairly close to mine. his may be a tad richer in the upper rpm/load ranges, but not by much, and I'm not done with mine yet. As I said in the beginning.... the supplied maps are way too lean in the lower and mid range especially. to the point of being hard to even drive without looking like a teenage daughters first day with a clutch.
Life is always better when you're making progress.... life is good today.

Russ

quote Originally posted by Russ544: O by the way cptsnoopy and others using the Holly computer. I've revised my assessment of the heat that the unit puts out. after a couple hours of tuning today I did notice that the heat can easily be felt by placing my hand over the vent I made in the top of the console last week, so I highly recomend that if you put the Holly in the stock Fiero location, by all means do creat ventilation for it.

Thanks for the info. I read through the wb tuning pages and I am hoping that it will help. I will consider running a computer fan mounted to the heat sink and or making a vent like yours.

I was thinking of adding a computer fan myself. do they make those that run on 12 v dc?

almost all computer fans run 12VDC

quote Originally posted by Will: Does it have a data-logging feature (it should)? That's a copilot in a box.

I did decide to call Alan about the temp deal today and was able to catch him when he wasn't too busy. he was in a good mood because he just sold a blown N* that he had built for someone else and that deal didn't work out.
anyway... he said he likes to see these (na) motors run 200 - 210 most of the time and noted that they make more hp at 210. he recomended max temp at idle is 235. Wile at the auto parts store today I inquired about a thermostat and they said the only listing was for a 180* which I thought odd.

Yes the Holly has datalogging capabilitys. and that's next on my list of things to study up on. I feel that I have the fuel map pretty close now with only a couple small areas that indicate any need for fine tuning. those areas are so much less obvious wile driving that the datalogger should be a big help in locating them.

Russ

[This message has been edited by Russ544 (edited 09-26-2005).]

quote Originally posted by cptsnoopy: Maybe ryan.hess will be able to help since he was using both the nb and then the wb with the holley to tune his N*/auto. He was having issues with the idle mixture if I remember right and the wb helped him fix that where the nb was not working out. My thought is that if you still have to set the values yourself it is sooo much more helpful to know how far from your desired point you are compared to just knowing that you are plus or minus the value you need with no real info on how much. I'll go over the book again and see if there is anything more helpful to offer. I may get lucky sometime this year and have to do a little tuning myself.

but actuall the NB O-2 sensor does tell you "how much" to lean or rich you are. by telling you how much fuel is being added or taken away from the base map (by keeping an eye on the compensation graph) you'll know how far off it is at that point.

RC

[This message has been edited by Russ544 (edited 09-28-2005).]

I agree that is a good indicator. Since I don't have any time tuning one of these things I don't really have a clue... The only thing I know for sure is that you will know what your a/f with the wb. It will also help in the areas that require something other than 14.7/1. That's all assuming that the wb works like it should. It sounds like data logging will be very useful.

oops

[This message has been edited by Russ544 (edited 09-28-2005).]

The fiberglass and resin came in just in time for the weekend so work began on the cold air box today. the method of construction is the same as used on the 4.3 box discussed a few chapters back, so I won't repeat the details, but basicly aluminum sheet, tinfoil, duct tape, margarine containers and whatever else I could find was used as mold material.
the lower 1/2 of the box, shown below, contains the bulk of the filter, which is ~ 8" x 10" x 1 1/4" . the IMSA L side vent will attach to the opening in the front lower corner. the plate sitting on the filter gets glassed into the slot cut in the side of the box to provide a baffle to the incoming air so it doesn't blast dirrectly on the filter media. hopefully it will also help muffle the IAC hiss.
When this is finished the filter shown will be replaced with a K&N unit, but at near $50.oo I didn't want to use that one for mockup.


I have several components of the top 1/2 of the box curing now, and should get that part finished up tomorrow

this is where it will mount when finished.

I didn't get quite as much done Sunday as I'd hoped, but I did finish the vast majority of the glass work the return on the upper portion fought me a bit, but I seem to have won in the end.


I expect it to look prettier when the "bodywork" is done and it's painted

What are you using to secure the two halves together? I imagine you have something in mind that will look good and allow easy access to the filter if you need to change it. Inquiring minds want to know!
--Bryson

------------------
88 Fiero GT Quad4 Turbo =) 396 whp!

quote Originally posted by bryson: What are you using to secure the two halves together? I imagine you have something in mind that will look good and allow easy access to the filter if you need to change it. Inquiring minds want to know! --Bryson

I've played around with a couple different ideas actually. at first I was thinking of just using overcenter spring clips on each side, but then I realised I wouldn't have the room, with the box installed, to get to the bails. I concidered screws but... na... too ugly and un-trick. so I spent an hour or so bending up stiff boden cable inner wire the other day and came up with an idea for some spring loaded hooks that I like pretty well................ but you'll have to wait until I find the proper size coil spring to use with it and a couple other little details. I'll have it worked out by the weekend for sure.

[This message has been edited by Russ544 (edited 10-04-2005).]