quote Originally posted by ricreatr: kohburn lists the 282 final drive as 3.61, not 2.6. im no expert, but in know my 282 is closer to 4.11 than it is to 2.6 final. my first gear is almost useless.

Final gear is 3.61, fift gear is .72, therefore 3.61 times .72 = final drive of 2.6

quote Originally posted by aaron88: How do you figure? The final drive on the 282 is 2.6 and the final drive on the G6 is 3.55. Therefore the G6 shouldn’t obtain as high a speed as the 282. Here’s my calculation using 215 60 R15 rear tires.

calculator like I said I knew it couldn't be correct cause the gearing for the 282 was way off. I was really hoping this would've worked, guess I'll stick with the 282 and hunt around to get a rebuild and cryo treated.

The final drive is the ratio of the differential (like the rear end ratio in a RWD car). The overall ratio is the specified gear * the final drive and unless specified it usully refers to the highest gear.

282 Getrag Overall ratio = 2.6 (.72*3.61)
G6 6speed Overall ratio = 2.2 (.62*3.55)

At 70 MPH with 24.6" tall tires
282 Getrag = 2486 RPM
G6 6speed = 2105 RPM

At 6000 RPM top speed in each gear are
282 G6 6 Speed
1 34.7 32.8
2 59.3 60.6
3 88.1 93.7
4 129.3 130.14
5 168.9 162.7
6 N/A 199.4

I have an excell file with the ratios for 26 different manual transmissions (10 are 6 speeds) from any and all manufacturers that might have an opportunity to work in a fiero (some require adapter plates). This transmission has one of the highest factory torque ratings and a significant drop the cruise RPMs. If anyone wants a copy, just PM me your email.

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 02-07-2005).]

No pictures of the transmission, sorry! I'd like to keep my head

quote Originally posted by aaron88: Edit: Unless by final drive what they really meant to say was final gear, then you are closer except first gear would be an 8.3 final gear ratio. That’s way too big, first gear would be good up to 54 mph and that doesn’t sound right at all. It would be like starting is second all the time.

My bad; when I checked the first gear here I made the mistake of multiplying 3.77 by 2.2 instead of 3.55 which is why things didn’t make sense at a 2.2 final for the G6, the first gear is 13.4 not 8.3, but now that I have re-checked it I will publish my correction.

If the final ratio of the G6 transmission is 2.2 then the other overall ratios look like this.

G6 gear, overall ratio (mph at 6000 rpm)
1, 13.4 (33)
2, 7.24 (62)
3, 4.69 (96)
4, 3.37 (133)
5, 2.70 (166)
6, 2.2 (204)

vs.
282 gear, overall ratio (mph at 6000 rpm)
1, 12.6 (36)
2, 7.4 (61)
3, 4.98 (90)
4, 3.39 (132)
5, 2.6 (173)

Note: Speed calculated using 215 60 R15 tires with 79 in circumference.

Aaron

.

[This message has been edited by aaron88 (edited 02-17-2005).]

Dude, you really need to check your math and proofread your posts. You STILL listed the F40 1st gear as 8.3.

As used in the Saab, this transmission will NOT be suited to a high torque engine. It has "European" gearing. That means that it has a very short 1st gear to let a gutless engine get a car up to speed reasonably quickly. The enormous RPM drop into 2nd gear is accepted as an inevitable consequence of having a small engine.

I sincerely hope that the team working on the G6 GTP understands gear ratios and changes 1st and 2nd gears in this trans. Otherwise it's going to lose out on fun-to-drive quotient in a big way.

I don't know why I'm even hoping that it will come to market with different ratios. GM has proven over and over again that they absolutely do not understand how to make anything that's not RWD and V8 powered fun to drive.

In order to be suited to a high torque engine, this trans needs MUCH taller 1st AND 2nd gears.

quote Originally posted by Will: Dude, you really need to check your math and proofread your posts. You STILL listed the F40 1st gear as 8.3.

Yah, I noticed that immediately after I posted it, I edited it, but not before you read it. So goes my luck.

quote Originally posted by CTFieroGT87: No pictures of the transmission, sorry! I'd like to keep my head

Chicken!

On a serious note... thanks for info.
Scott

BUMP

I'm going to attempt getting pictures while keeping my head

excellent!

looks like a good tranny to me...1st-5th look almost identical to my neon, and a 6th gear to boot..I'll snatch one up...I love my neon's gearing, but then...I like to rev, on another note, someone said SAAB uses them? what models can I find one in?(I'll have to make a custom bellhousing anyway for my(gasp) Ford engine I'm putting in)

[This message has been edited by wicked93gs (edited 03-03-2005).]

One of the guys who work for GM should post a feedback address through which we can express our concerns to the engineers who might be tempted to put a transmission with gear ratios suited for a 2 litre into a 3.9 litre.
Squeaky wheel gets the grease.

I thinkd the 9-3 is getting a 6-cyl soon so our concerns have hopefully already been addressed.

Andrew

It's all about the torque capacity... This could be the drag racing/crusing transmission we have been waiting for But we are going to have to fight off the Grand prix owners to get our hands on these little gems. Now, Im just hoping they have LSD. The transmission weighs 123.5 LBS, a getrag is 95 LBS last I checked, hopefully its all about the strength.

With triple cone synchros on 1 & 2, doubles on 3 & 4, it'll be hellaciously power-shiftable.
A comparison test involving a Saab with this transmission said that it could be shifted as fast as the test driver could move his hands.
Now if GM will only fix the ratios before they start using it with V6's...

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 03-04-2005).]

yep, torque capacity with a good clutch(can you say 500ft lbs?)...I'm all for this tranny from what I have seen so far, especially since I will be able to cruise at 80mph at 2k-2.5k (in the neon(daily triver+fun street car) its 3.5k, havent even taken the fiero on the interstate...its currently being built)

Sounds like a nice piece of work, especially at 123lbs. I will be pleasantly surprised if GM offers it with gearing suitable for a serious sports car, even if they revise the 1st and 2nd gear ratios. One of the biggest reasons they keep the steep first gear ratios, even in cars with adequate low-end torque, is to make them easier for "normal" people to drive. With a 3000+lb car and a more sporting first gear ratio, a lot of people would have to have clutches put in much too often. Most of those people don't know a pair of pliers from a wrench either, so they would pay big bucks at a dealership to have said clutches installed. In time that would gain the manual trans a bad rep for being "too expensive". I can't count the number of times I have heard people burning the clutch ON LEVEL GROUND with a car that is geared so steep you can almost simply let the clutch out and go!!! On hills they sound like they're in the water hole "heatin em up"!

Let's hope they are building a true sports sedan/coupe, and not just cars that can be classified as sporty. Maybe then they'll at least keep first gear from being like "four-wheel low"

------------------
Todd Perkins - the member formerly known as "perkidelic"
todd's hot rods

[This message has been edited by toddshotrods (edited 03-05-2005).]

I'm still trying to find someone who can give me a concrete answer on the gear ratios. Most people here go cross-eyed when I ask them what the ratios are. Its interesting working at an assembly plant where most of the people there aren't interested in/ don't know anything about cars.

------------------
Christian Thomas
87 Pontiac Fiero GT Burgandy/Silver 5.7L ZZ4 5spd

Next Mod: Holley Stealth Ram, late spring/summer

so when will this tranny be available? and does anyone on a guess know the retail cost, cant me that 3k, even the t56 terminator tranny for the viper doesnt cost any more than that

quote Originally posted by CTFieroGT87: I'm still trying to find someone who can give me a concrete answer on the gear ratios. Most people here go cross-eyed when I ask them what the ratios are. Its interesting working at an assembly plant where most of the people there aren't interested in/ don't know anything about cars.

Interesting? I find it frightening!
Norm

Oh its frightening at times. And sorry guys, big NO on pictures. Will have to wait until they're released to dealerships for service.

just curious when does the GTP model hit the market? still hoping for different gears before its said and done.

f40 documentation is out on si2000! let me know what pics you want to see.
there is a clutch pedal positions sensor on top of the usual vss and reverse switch.
the gear ratios match what was shown in a posted link on page 1:
1 3.77
2 2.04
3 1.32
4 .95
5 .76
6 .62

final did not seem to be listed.

sales says there has been some delays, and they dont expect it untill june or july

just want to see how the cables attach to make sure it won't interfere with the 3.4 or N*

That .62 overdrive will be nice on a V8.

quote Originally posted by ricreatr: f40 documentation is out on si2000! let me know what pics you want to see. there is a clutch pedal positions sensor on top of the usual vss and reverse switch. the gear ratios match what was shown in a posted link on page 1: 1 3.77 2 2.04 3 1.32 4 .95 5 .76 6 .62 final did not seem to be listed. sales says there has been some delays, and they dont expect it untill june or july

*SIGH*
Guess I'd better get started figuring out how to put a better 1st and 2nd gear in the dam thing, since GM dropped the ball...

here is a poor shot at cable stuff. and gm line drawings to boot

it would be nice to have first and second brought up, but i was wondering about just changing the final to bring em all up. i would like to cruise 70 at about 1700 rpm. even my 3800 should handle that with our small frontal area etc.

i talked to a gm technical assistance operator today. he said he was driving a '06 g6. and sure enough it was a gtp 6spd.
i started asking him about it and the first words out of his mouth were "first and second are way too low"!!
well, first will be good for someone to learn your car, and YOU will have a five speed - second through sixth.
actually he has the car to report on problems like that, so maybe '07 will have better gears.?

"A newly developed six-gear manual transmission, called F40-6 for short. The new transmission, produced at new facility in Rüsselsheim, Germany, weighs only 50 kilograms (dry), thanks to a twin-section aluminum housing. The triple-shaft construction can transfer up to 400 Newton meters and it is especially flexible due to the fact that it can be manufactured with a variety of gear ratios to accommodate a broad range of engine applications."

Type:
transverse front wheel drive, six-speed manual transaxle

Engine range:
3.9L HVV6 (LZ9)

Maximum engine torque:
245 lb-ft (333 Nm)

Maximum gearbox torque:
295 lb-ft (400 Nm)

Gear ratios:
MT2

First:
3.77

Second:
2.04

Third:
1.32

Fourth:
0.95

Fifth:
0.76

Sixth:
0.62

Reverse:
3.54

Final drive
3.55

Maximum validated gross vehicle weight:
3527 lb (1600 kg)

Case material:
aluminum

Center distance:
197 mm

Fluid type:
Castrol BOT 0063

Transmission weight:
56 kg (123.5 lb)

Fluid capacity (approximate):
3.1L / 3.27 qt (dry)

Power take off:
no

Applications:
Pontiac G6

Thats about all I got for you guys.

i'll keep my eye on this - if they get the gears right every FWD anf fiero GM hotrodder will be out to buy them

Get a taller 1st and 2nd and swap in the 3.91 FD from a Saab... fun.

If we weren't Fiero owners, we could talk 'group buy' with custom rations from Germany. Hahahahah!

quote Originally posted by ricreatr: i talked to a gm technical assistance operator today. he said he was driving a '06 g6. and sure enough it was a gtp 6spd. i started asking him about it and the first words out of his mouth were "first and second are way too low"!! well, first will be good for someone to learn your car, and YOU will have a five speed - second through sixth. actually he has the car to report on problems like that, so maybe '07 will have better gears.?

I could have told them that 1st and 2nd were WAY too low by looking at six numbers on my computer screen. Why the F#(&% does GM need someone to DRIVE a prototype to tell them these things?!?!

quote Originally posted by Will: I could have told them that 1st and 2nd were WAY too low by looking at six numbers on my computer screen. Why the F#(&% does GM need someone to DRIVE a prototype to tell them these things?!?!

Makes you wonder who called the shots regarding what the ratios were going to be, in the first place.

That sure appears to be a neural saftey or gear position switch on the shaft leading into the transmission, that would be a useful feature. Wonder what this transmission is going to cost. I would venture a guess in the $3500 range. What do you guys think its going to cost?

Can somebody calculate the maximum speed in first and second gear if it where bolted to the Short * or North *

With a 7000rpm redline and 26" tall tires the first and second gears shouldn't be too bad?

Thanks

I have no complaints about the G6's gears. Just go with larger tires. It seems 60mph is doable in 2nd gear.
Having a high first gear (getrag) is what gives the Fiero one of the fastest 0-30 times stock. I race oval track and having a 1 or 2 car lead off the line is almost everything there. It's almost impossible to pass me on that 1/3 mile track. I usually lose because of my own inept ability to control the car at high speeds coming out of the last turn not because the other car/driver is more capable. And I've raced many a car that would smoke me on the quarter mile.

Personally I think the high first gear is good on the clutch as well. I used to hate it when I'd let people drive my car and they pull away from a stop sign in second gear. Pisses me right off.

I want more info on this tranny.
Will it accept Fiero axles? (Did I miss that post?)
I want this in my next Fiero.
I also want a 180rwhp 3.4 pushrod in it as well...

quote Originally posted by Rickady88GT: Can somebody calculate the maximum speed in first and second gear if it where bolted to the Short * or North * With a 7000rpm redline and 26" tall tires the first and second gears shouldn't be too bad? Thanks

"...should'nt be too bad?" I'd say not! By my calculations, using the parameters you have listed, you would hit 40 mph in first gear at 7000 rpm, and 75 mph in second gear at 7000 rpm. You would cruise at 70 mph in sixth gear at 2000 rpm.

Rick: send me a fax # and I will send a complete matrix... (one of these days I'll take the time to learn pdf, etc.)

------------------
FierOmar

quote Originally posted by lou_dias: I have no complaints about the G6's gears.

You should.
A 6500 RPM 1-2 will drop you back to 3500 RPM.
Because first is so deep it will be very difficult and very hard on synchros to downshift into it at anything but a crawl.

Why does a "close ratio" 6 speed have a wider 1-2 gap than our wide ratio 5 speeds (Getrag)?