You should. A 6500 RPM 1-2 will drop you back to 3500 RPM. Because first is so deep it will be very difficult and very hard on synchros to downshift into it at anything but a crawl.
Why does a "close ratio" 6 speed have a wider 1-2 gap than our wide ratio 5 speeds (Getrag)?
Yeah but I'm still making alot of torque @ 3500...so I have no complaints...I prefer the quick launch. Let the other guy play catch-up. I'm not talking a 115rwhp 2.8 here. I'm talking 200 ft*lbs @ 3600 with a 3.4 (or at least my last 2).
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10:13 PM
Will Member
Posts: 14252 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
You may be making decent torque at 3500, but you're not making any at 6500...that would be an extremely late shift with a V6/60.
The Northstar hits peak power about 6K and peak torque at 4.4. It would clear out of its power band on the 1-2 shift.
Well, I was shifting @ 5200 RPM when racing in 2-3 and 3-4 but in 1-2, I'd let it go to 6k. and I was making 195 ft*lbs @ 3000 rpm. It was all good. :-D
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05:33 PM
Jun 13th, 2005
fieroX Member
Posts: 5234 From: wichita, Ks Registered: Oct 2001
ok so check this out. First off anyone think itll handle 600 ft lbs of torque with a badass clutch? And what If i launch it in 2nd gear? In other words, if I put this tranny in my car, how long would it last and would it work better than the 4t60e's ive been blowing up?
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02:32 AM
Fastback 86 Member
Posts: 7849 From: Los Angeles, CA Registered: Sep 2003
ok so check this out. First off anyone think itll handle 600 ft lbs of torque with a badass clutch? And what If i launch it in 2nd gear? In other words, if I put this tranny in my car, how long would it last and would it work better than the 4t60e's ive been blowing up?
We've been over this, X. No one cares that your monster 3800 can destroy any FWD manual that enters your Zip Code. We know. But 99% of Fiero owners aren't pushing anything close to 600lb-ft, so we're not too concerned about it.
Assuming that was an honest question, I doubt it would last all that long, like any other FWD manual transmission I've seen behind a big powerplant. I've yet to see a FWD manual transmission that was factory rated for more than 250ft-lbs. Build it up and it'll take a bit more abuse, but not that much. But you already know all of this.
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04:04 AM
Whuffo Member
Posts: 3000 From: San Jose, CA Registered: Jul 2003
ok so check this out. First off anyone think itll handle 600 ft lbs of torque with a badass clutch? And what If i launch it in 2nd gear? In other words, if I put this tranny in my car, how long would it last and would it work better than the 4t60e's ive been blowing up?
Try the 4T65HD - it's a bit more durable. If you get it rebuilt with beefed up parts it might last for a couple of passes...
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02:38 PM
CTFieroGT87 Member
Posts: 2520 From: Royal Oak, MI Registered: Oct 2002
Over the next few months, I'm going to try to connect up with some guys who work on the high performance specialty vehicles that GM makes and see what they know about getting strong transmission components. I'm hoping that this transmission can be physically made to handle 600ft/lbs, it'd fit my plans nicely.
------------------ Christian Thomas 87 Pontiac Fiero GT Burgandy/Silver 5.7L ZZ4 5spd 301rwhp/345rwtq Next Mod: Not sure yet
X, maybe it's time for you to forget the wimpy 60/65E and step up to a 4L80E? Just kidding...
Joking aside, for people that can't switch cogs to a more desireable 1 and 2 ratio - would this thing be any good for a hopped up 3.4TDC or Northstar? The TDC and Northstar both seem to make peak power by about 6 or so, but changing the cam profile/timing, the intake, and other various things like exhaust and valve springs can bump the useable powerband up and put max power/torque farther up top. Wouldn't a 4 banger like gear ratio for 1 and 2 help out on the bottom end, while the extra 1000+ RPM make up for the difference? I'm not pretending to be an expert (or to even know $%&^* about gear ratios), but people with the DOHC motors talk about using the 4.10 final drive 4 speed box for the TDC. Are the wimpy 1 and 2 ratios on this box similar in function, or do they just suck? Or is it just that the shift from 1 to 2 sucks?
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04:17 PM
fieroX Member
Posts: 5234 From: wichita, Ks Registered: Oct 2001
We've been over this, X. No one cares that your monster 3800 can destroy any FWD manual that enters your Zip Code. We know. But 99% of Fiero owners aren't pushing anything close to 600lb-ft, so we're not too concerned about it.
Assuming that was an honest question, I doubt it would last all that long, like any other FWD manual transmission I've seen behind a big powerplant. I've yet to see a FWD manual transmission that was factory rated for more than 250ft-lbs. Build it up and it'll take a bit more abuse, but not that much. But you already know all of this.
Actually that was a seriously honest question. Ive been thinking about it lately and If theyre building something thats going in a fairly heavy car, with a decent amount of power, theyre going to beef it up a little, so they dont have warranty issues with hundreds of cars coming back. Thats what made me wonder, if just maybe it would hold for a year or so. Thats all I want out of a transmission, 1 year of normal duty driving and racing on the occasional weekend. I really dont beat on my transmission very often. I drive it sensibly around town. but it literally takes 10 full blast passes and the tranny is finished. Its not the hard parts that fail (except for when i broke the drive chain). Its wearing out the clutches. I have damn good line pressure, yet i ashify the clutch packs. Maybe one of these new manuals, in a lighter car than intended for (takes stress off), with a decent clutch, and the lag of my turbo, it just might survive. For awhile.
I could go to a 65eHD, but heres whats holding me back. #1 problem, the 65e is a larger tranny. The bellhousing is physically larger, and my turbo exhaust is built just for the 60e. I would have to redo 2/3 of my exhaust that I spent weeks on, and hundreds of dollars worth of stainless pipe, and ceramic coating. Next, axles. Then the wiring/computer changes. So at this point ive spent a few thousand more dollars, buying a tranny, building it up, building new exhaust, creating new axles, for the CHANCE, that this one might survive. Im a poker player. I study pot odds, and can calculate them in an instant. This bet isnt worth it. I fold.
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11:17 PM
Jun 14th, 2005
Darth Fiero Member
Posts: 5921 From: Waterloo, Indiana Registered: Oct 2002
If I am not mistaken, X broke the chain during his last 4T60-E failure. For what its worth, the 4T65-E HD trannys come with a weaker 2-piece chain which most people in the GTP community "upgrade" to the VERY SAME single chain setup that X broke. The chain aside, the 4T65-E HD is not that much stronger than a 4T60-E. There are stronger hard-parts, but each trans has issues and we are finding more issues cropping up with the 65-E HD with every passing day. Bottom line, when you are making as much torque as X is, you are going to break, sooner or later. It isn't a matter of IF, it is a matter of WHEN. Venture over to the GTP boards and start reading up on the fastest GTP's and Bonneville's. The trannies in every one of those cars are pulled after every couple of passes to fix issues or get freshened up.
The only other thing X can do is contact the Ecotec GM factory-sponsored race teams that are running the 4T65-E HD behind their 1200hp Ecotec 4cyl's. I heard thru the grapevine that the upgrades performed on these trannys make them last much longer than anything the GTP camp is doing however the price tag is much more expensive... $12,000 if I remember correctly. But hey, if you want to play, you gotta pay.
------------------ power corrupts. absolute power corrupts absolutely. Custom Computer Tuning | Engine Conversions | Turbocharging | www.gmtuners.com
The only other thing X can do is contact the Ecotec GM factory-sponsored race teams that are running the 4T65-E HD behind their 1200hp Ecotec 4cyl's. I heard thru the grapevine that the upgrades performed on these trannys make them last much longer than anything the GTP camp is doing however the price tag is much more expensive... $12,000 if I remember correctly. But hey, if you want to play, you gotta pay.
I've done extensive research on the 4t65-e that GM Racing used in there 600HP - 1400HP OFF HIGHWAY Ecotec's. The key word here is OFF HIGHWAY. This isn't intended to be a daily driver. They started with a heavy duty or supercharged applicatoin of the production transmission, the gearbox is modified into a threee speed transmission, with driver shift control utilizing an aftermarket performance torque converter. The changes have been proven reliable behind a 600HP engine and track proven behind a 1000+ HP Ecotec engine. Here's the parts list for the 4t65e that GM Racing used on their Colbalt Pro PWD car, it pushed a 7.54 @199mph in the 1/4 mile.... Description Part # Source
4T65—E Assembly for Race Applications only CPT700 GM Racing
SHAFT ASM—TURBINE (Input Shaft Assembly) Turbine Shaft and Sleeve (800 hp application) CPT707 GM Racing
SHAFT ASM—TURBINE (Input Shaft Assembly) Turbine Shaft and Sleeve and pump shaft (1200 hp application) CPT708 GM Racing
3rd Gear Clutch Pack CPT709 Raybestos Z-Pack (Version 2’s P/N: RZP003) Differential and Final Drive Assembly 3.29 incl. Torsen, pinion gears, pins CPT710 GM Racing
Differential and Final Drive Assembly 3.29 without gears & pins CPT711 GM Racing
Differential and Final Drive Assembly 4.0 incl Sun and Park Gears Sungear and Sungear shaft GEAR—PARK CPT712 GM Racing
930 CV Output Flange RH CPT713 GM Racing
930 CV Output Flange LH CPT714 GM Racing
Adapter Plate — ECOTEC to 4T65 CPT715 GM Racing (Bates)
Template for Bell—housing pattern CPT716 GM Racing
4T65—E CASE Assembly w/ increased bell—housing wall thickness CPT717 GM Racing
Torque Converter — Coan
Planetary Assembly 24225850 GM Service Part
Tech Manual 4T65 — Service Manual
Again this isn't intended for highway use, if you're looking for something that you can use as a daily driver, then I would lean towards the T Raptor - http://www.transmissioncenter.net/alto_2.htm
------------------ Your ability is your only speed limit.
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01:14 PM
Jun 15th, 2005
Will Member
Posts: 14252 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
Originally posted by fieroX: Actually that was a seriously honest question. Ive been thinking about it lately and If theyre building something thats going in a fairly heavy car, with a decent amount of power, theyre going to beef it up a little, so they dont have warranty issues with hundreds of cars coming back. Thats what made me wonder, if just maybe it would hold for a year or so. Thats all I want out of a transmission, 1 year of normal duty driving and racing on the occasional weekend. I really dont beat on my transmission very often. I drive it sensibly around town. but it literally takes 10 full blast passes and the tranny is finished. Its not the hard parts that fail (except for when i broke the drive chain). Its wearing out the clutches. I have damn good line pressure, yet i ashify the clutch packs. Maybe one of these new manuals, in a lighter car than intended for (takes stress off), with a decent clutch, and the lag of my turbo, it just might survive. For awhile.
The F40-6 is rated for 300 ftlbs of torque. If it's as overbuilt as the 282, it might be able to handle 600 for a while. The 282's are ostensibly rated for 200 and when in good internal condition can hold 400 pretty well.
Of course the T5 is also rated for 300 ftlbs and it probably wouldn't make it through one pass with 600...
[This message has been edited by Will (edited 06-15-2005).]
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10:32 AM
FierOmar Member
Posts: 1644 From: Glendale, California, USA Registered: Dec 2001
Will: Don't mean to hijack this topic but... A couple years ago you submitted a post regarding the concept which led me to the conclusion that on the Fiero, the width of the rear tire should be about 10-15% greater than the width of the front tires. Quoting you on 7/28/03: “...when the tire width matches the weight distribution, the CT [Center of Traction] is coincident with the CG [Center of Gravity].”
As I understand your post, having the CT “coincident” with the CG is ideal. I have tried to find that post, but have had some difficulty. I thought I found it in archives, but could not access it. See: https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/031895.html
Could you post this information again as I thought it was very helpful in explaining why it is important to stagger the front/rear tire sizes on the Fiero and assisting in wheel/tire selection?
------------------ FierOmar
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02:17 PM
Rickady88GT Member
Posts: 10649 From: Central CA Registered: Dec 2002
Will: Don't mean to hijack this topic but... A couple years ago you submitted a post regarding the concept which led me to the conclusion that on the Fiero, the width of the rear tire should be about 10-15% greater than the width of the front tires. Quoting you on 7/28/03: “...when the tire width matches the weight distribution, the CT [Center of Traction] is coincident with the CG [Center of Gravity].”
As I understand your post, having the CT “coincident” with the CG is ideal. I have tried to find that post, but have had some difficulty. I thought I found it in archives, but could not access it. See: https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/031895.html
Could you post this information again as I thought it was very helpful in explaining why it is important to stagger the front/rear tire sizes on the Fiero and assisting in wheel/tire selection?
They WON"T. They're GM and they're dumb like that. The V8 GP's will be all auto.
At the LA auto show they said the new 5.3 Front Wheel Drive DOD V8 will be offered in the Impalla SS and Monticarlo SS WITH a six speed manual. I even corected them" Did you say 6 speed auto or a six speed manual? " answer = " Six Speed Manual"
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03:53 PM
PFF
System Bot
LoW_KeY Member
Posts: 8081 From: Hastings, MI Registered: Oct 2001
Apparently it's a done deal. I just checked the online autotrader and the 2004 GTO comes with the 4 speed automatic and lists a 6-speed option. The site is below if you have problems just delete everything after .com and it should take you to the search page.
Too bad you are talking about the GTO, which is a RWD car, and uses the T56 Tremec transmission, same as the Vette and F-body. This is a completely different animal from the G6 FWD 6-spd that could possibly be used behind the 5.3 in the upcoming SS''s. The T56 is not a viable option for the Fiero unless you get REALLY creative.
I don't make mistakes like that very often, I saw and have been seeing front engine for a long time on that car and I super imposed FWD on that. Yeah I'm getting old. Sorry gentlemen and thanks for kindly pointing that mistake out Marty as opposed to sarcasm and the other related vernacular.
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07:15 AM
Rickady88GT Member
Posts: 10649 From: Central CA Registered: Dec 2002
At the SS stage the manual 6 speed V8 was a BIG deal. They were saying that the "Return of the manuale V8 is comming" but in front wheel drive form. They even had two of them at the show. They were TOTALY Blacked out. Everything was painted black.
You may be making decent torque at 3500, but you're not making any at 6500...that would be an extremely late shift with a V6/60.
The Northstar hits peak power about 6K and peak torque at 4.4. It would drop clear out of its power band on the 1-2 shift.
goto www.trueleo.com and look at the dyno charts on my stock 3.4L with his intake, i was still making decent power around 6500 RPM for a 60* v6 and i figure with the right valve train, the power would still be up there at 6500 RPM.
matthew
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09:43 AM
Will Member
Posts: 14252 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
With the power curve on that dyno graph, 6500 would still be a late shift. With the G6 trans 1-2 shift with that power curve, you'd want to shift at 6 which would drop you back to 3.2.
You've got 142 peak HP, but you're down to 110 at 6K and 3.2K. That seriously kills the area under the curve for the acceleration run.
6 speed have a wider 1-2 gap than our wide ratio 5 speeds (Getrag)?
