quote Originally posted by Saxman: I don't know. I'd like to find out. Anyone know?

Did a bit of searching, they look like the Fiero Warehouse full panel side scoops maybe? Eeh. They look good anyways.

Brad

edit: Page 3! Now everyone has to look at my boring uninformative post first! heh heh.

[This message has been edited by BtotheB (edited 09-25-2006).]

quote Originally posted by BtotheB:Did a bit of searching, they look like the Fiero Warehouse full panel side scoops maybe? Eeh. They look good anyways. Brad

Yup - looks like their full-panel side scoops. Good eye!

Back to the repairs: I got under and found a few things. There is a temp sensor on the back of the block where a coolant line returns to the engine. This coolant line simply comes out of the intake manifold and runs striaght down back into a T-fitting and into the block. The temp sensor is on the T-fitting. The wire that is supposed to plug into the sensor was zip-tied to the harness, so I had to cut the zip to plug it in. The wires were both white, so it must be the aftermarket sensor. Didn't matter because neither of the guages read after I warmed her up again. Now it's time to trace the wires and see just what is going on. I think it is also time to put the sensor on the intake manifold.

I also found out what the speaker wire running from under the driver's seat back to the engine is for. One side of the speaker wire goes to the oil pressure sending unit (which works) and the other just ends at the engine. I have the feeling that the unused half of the speaker wire may have been intended for a temp guage, but who knows. The friggin' speaker wire is wrapped around the coolant lines running under the driver's side, so I should fix those soon. The engine fan is not controlled by a sensor. It is wired to a keyed + wire so it's on any time the engine is running.

I also found on of the rear spark plug wires was turning brown from the exhaust manifold. I think the wire is bad now because the engine popped and smelled like gas whether the wire was plugged in or not (which I did by accident while re-routing the cables), so I need a new wire. I'll check for a spark to be sure.

So, without a working temp guage, I am still not able to take it for a ride. It may take a couple of days to get time to play with her again.

I did try to clean the side signal ground to fix my signal problem, but it did not help. All the bulbs are correct, so I am stumped for now. I'll try to take some paint off the inner fender to really give it a good ground soon. Maybe that will do it...

quote Originally posted by Saxman: Yup - looks like their full-panel side scoops. Good eye! Back to the repairs: I got under and found a few things. There is a temp sensor on the back of the block where a coolant line returns to the engine. This coolant line simply comes out of the intake manifold and runs striaght down back into a T-fitting and into the block. The temp sensor is on the T-fitting. The wire that is supposed to plug into the sensor was zip-tied to the harness, so I had to cut the zip to plug it in. The wires were both white, so it must be the aftermarket sensor. Didn't matter because neither of the guages read after I warmed her up again. Now it's time to trace the wires and see just what is going on. I think it is also time to put the sensor on the intake manifold. I also found out what the speaker wire running from under the driver's seat back to the engine is for. One side of the speaker wire goes to the oil pressure sending unit (which works) and the other just ends at the engine. I have the feeling that the unused half of the speaker wire may have been intended for a temp guage, but who knows. The friggin' speaker wire is wrapped around the coolant lines running under the driver's side, so I should fix those soon. The engine fan is not controlled by a sensor. It is wired to a keyed + wire so it's on any time the engine is running. I also found on of the rear spark plug wires was turning brown from the exhaust manifold. I think the wire is bad now because the engine popped and smelled like gas whether the wire was plugged in or not (which I did by accident while re-routing the cables), so I need a new wire. I'll check for a spark to be sure. So, without a working temp guage, I am still not able to take it for a ride. It may take a couple of days to get time to play with her again. I did try to clean the side signal ground to fix my signal problem, but it did not help. All the bulbs are correct, so I am stumped for now. I'll try to take some paint off the inner fender to really give it a good ground soon. Maybe that will do it...

Try touching a ground wire to the temp sensor. It may just not be getting a good ground.

quote Originally posted by Jake_Dragon:Try touching a ground wire to the temp sensor. It may just not be getting a good ground.

Hmm - now to figure out which one is the ground and which is +

Thanks, Jake!

the shell of the sender is the ground side. the part you would put the wrench on installing it.
the smaller tab is for the guage wire, normally it will have some voltage on it.

as a matter of fact you could test that wire by putting it thru a 12v bulb to ground, the guage should peg or close to it. if nothing happens, the guage or the wire back to it is bad.

[This message has been edited by tjm4fun (edited 09-28-2006).]

quote Originally posted by tjm4fun:the shell of the sender is the ground side. the part you would put the wrench on installing it. the smaller tab is for the guage wire, normally it will have some voltage on it. as a matter of fact you could test that wire by putting it thru a 12v bulb to ground, the guage should peg or close to it. if nothing happens, the guage or the wire back to it is bad.

THanks - I found all the wires, but the sensor is the problem now. It has two wires that disappear into the rear harness, but neither of the gauges works when it is plugged in. I know the aftermarket gauge is not hooked up because Yons ran a speaker wire from the gauge back to the area of the sensor (but didn't hook it up). Since both wires that plug into the sensor are the same color and size, I don't know which is the right one. Since the new sensor wires should be plugged into something inside the harness, I'll assume it was the stock gauge. Perhaps the gauge is bad.

Anyway, I'll try both wires on the sensor to see which one works. I have to strip back all the electrical tape to see just what Yons did. I need to put up some photos to show how it is rigged. There is a hose running from the intake down to the block - where the sensor is t-fitted in. Maybe if I just put a sensor where the hose exits the intake - and the other where the hose goes back into the block, I can get this thing working!

[This message has been edited by Saxman (edited 09-29-2006).]

I"m kinda confussed, so I will ask some questions. You have the stock fiero temp gauge in the dash, and the stock fiero pigtail(connector) in the engine compartment, coming from the original fiero harness?(two wire plug I'm thinking)?

quote Originally posted by GKDINC:I"m kinda confussed, so I will ask some questions. You have the stock fiero temp gauge in the dash, and the stock fiero pigtail(connector) in the engine compartment, coming from the original fiero harness?(two wire plug I'm thinking)?

Yes and no-

I still have the stock Fiero temp gauge, along with an aftermarket one on the A-pillar. The stock gauge wires are still running through the harness (I assume) to the engine compartment, but there is a two-wire plug on the end of two white wires sticking out of the stock Fiero harness by the back of the engine. The plug fits into the sensor on the lower half of the block, but the stock gauge just jumps up to 1/4 of the way up no matter what the temp is - even at startup.

I assume the two white wires are connected to the stock Fiero sensor wires (since a separate speaker wire is hooked to the aftermarket gauge), but I'll have to pull off a bunch of electrical tape in the rear harness to find out for sure. (Anyone know what color the stock temp wires should be on the rear harness?)

In the mean time, I may just splice in the aftermarket gauge to one of the white wires to see if the sensor is working. If it is, I can assume that either the stock gauge is bad - or the wires are messed up.

Sorry to be so confusing in my description. I'm trying to type fast so I can get back out in the garage!

i think the temp gauge wire is green on the harness, but im not 100% sure.

matthew

Saxman download the manual then you'll have the wiring color info.

http://spad.sytes.net/fiero/manuals/ There is a 86 factory service manual on this guys share. Sorry don't remember the member that posted it.

but there is a two-wire plug on the end of two white wires sticking out of the stock Fiero harness by the back of the engine. The plug fits into the sensor
Sounds like the tach filter to me!!
Good Luck
Gary
You really want to know engine temP? Ditch the electric gauges, install a mechanical gauge. Find a water port and install the probe, your done. JMO

[This message has been edited by GKDINC (edited 09-29-2006).]

quote Originally posted by GKDINC:but there is a two-wire plug on the end of two white wires sticking out of the stock Fiero harness by the back of the engine. The plug fits into the sensor Sounds like the tach filter to me!! Good Luck Gary You really want to know engine temP? Ditch the electric gauges, install a mechanical gauge. Find a water port and install the probe, your done. JMO

Well, this sensor is running into a coolant line (a T-fitting right where the coolant line goes back into the back side of the engine), so I don't think it is for the tach - unless prev. owner used the wrong sensor. The tach is working fine, so at least that is plugged into the right place.

Now that all the wires are there, I might as well figure out how to use them. You are right, though. Because of all the different resistance in these sensors, who knows exactly what the temp is?

Yes pics PLEASE! would help ever so much!
What you're describing sounds like the bypass hose that allows the coolant to circulate past the tstat in a normal sbc config.
need to see a pic tho to be sure....
besides, we all like to look at pics.... we're simple that way

quote Originally posted by tjm4fun:Yes pics PLEASE! would help ever so much! What you're describing sounds like the bypass hose that allows the coolant to circulate past the tstat in a normal sbc config. need to see a pic tho to be sure.... besides, we all like to look at pics.... we're simple that way

OK - I took some new shots tonight. First, here are more of the car outside the day after I got her:





And - just so you know where she has been living for the last few weeks:



Yes - the Finiero has been feeling used and abused. She is serving as a tool/part table since I only have a tight 2-car garage.



I finally got the LED tail lights for the Fino, so she is waiting patiently for her next ride...

ok, that coolant sensor for the stock wiring should go back eventually to a dark green wire, that is the switch line for the idiot light, and a dark green with yellow for the guage.

That "oddly placed" plug is where the oil sending unit would normally mount on a sbc.

For the electric choke, you should have a "bat" line to that hei distributor, that should be a good source for switched 12v for the choke. the choke is a very low draw, and that line should be a heavy guage feed.

As for those heater lines, you do need to keep coolant flowing thru that loop in order for the tstat to have warm coolant flow so it will eventually open. Looks like he plumbed it tinot the port that the temp sender would normally sit in. I have to go look for the flow pattern in an sbc to be sure that will work, there may be no flow thru that line. I honestly don;t remember that off the top of my head.

as for your fuel regulator, that one beats the hell out of me, never saw that one before.
Be sure that fuel valve in the line is open, that could be the source of your low pressure if it is not wide open.

I kind of agree with tjm4fun, don't know if coming off the top of the manifold and going back into the side of the block would give you much is any flow of coolant for the temp sensor. The outgoing line is usually needs to be as close to the pump as can be to have the greatest pressure differential.

quote Originally posted by tjm4fun:ok, that coolant sensor for the stock wiring should go back eventually to a dark green wire, that is the switch line for the idiot light, and a dark green with yellow for the guage.

OK - so the two-wire sensor provides a signal for the stock gauge and the dummy light? That makes sense. Now I need a place to hook the aftermarket gauge to. I did tap a wire into one of the white wires last night so I could start her up today to see if it reads.

quote That "oddly placed" plug is where the oil sending unit would normally mount on a sbc.

So the oil pressure sensor up under the distributor is doing the same thing as it would if it were on the block? Should it be down there instead?

quote For the electric choke, you should have a "bat" line to that hei distributor, that should be a good source for switched 12v for the choke. the choke is a very low draw, and that line should be a heavy guage feed.

The Holley manual says not to hook the choke to the distributor as a source or it will not choke correctly. Is that bull?

quote As for those heater lines, you do need to keep coolant flowing thru that loop in order for the tstat to have warm coolant flow so it will eventually open. Looks like he plumbed it into the port that the temp sender would normally sit in. I have to go look for the flow pattern in an sbc to be sure that will work, there may be no flow thru that line. I honestly don't remember that off the top of my head.

I am interested in knowing if it will flow because that is the source for the heater lines and the sensor since I will be hooking the heater back up eventually. If it does not flow, I guess I need to rig up a coolant line coming from the goose-neck where the pressure is, huh? Should it still route back into the block at the same place it is now?

quote as for your fuel regulator, that one beats the hell out of me, never saw that one before. Be sure that fuel valve in the line is open, that could be the source of your low pressure if it is not wide open.

The fuel valve is stuck and I didn't want to put too much pressure on it - but I guess I really should to see whether it is set fully open or not. Like I said, the fuel regulator will not go higher than 3lbs, but I wonder if that front Alan-fitting will adjust it up.

Thanks for the info - tjm!

well, if you want to be paranoid, you can run any 'ignition on' 12v source to the choke. I ran mine from the hei on a car I converted, it all ran fine, but the hei feed was a 12 guage heavy feed. it would never notice the .5 amp or less the choke draws.

for the heater flow, water is pumped into the block at the 2 sides of the pump, down the block, up thru the heads from the rear to the front, then to the tstat and out. so the takeoff next to the tstat housing is good for that part, I just thnk the other side MAY be too far back on the block, I really am not sure on this one. it may be fine, it may not. one of the sbc conversion guys should know, for how they hooke theirs up.

for the oil sender, no need to move it. I;ve seen them mounted there, and honestly, I think the high mounts show a more realistic oil pressure, as it is seen at the cam bearings, not right at the output of the pump. will see issues much faster that way. besides, I don't think you really have room for a sender in the stock location.

for the fuel valve, loosen the nut on the stem, it is a packing nut, and may be too tight. re tighten it to avoid leaks after verifying the valve is open.

quote Originally posted by tjm4fun:well, if you want to be paranoid, you can run any 'ignition on' 12v source to the choke. I ran mine from the hei on a car I converted, it all ran fine, but the hei feed was a 12 guage heavy feed. it would never notice the .5 amp or less the choke draws.

Since it is easy to do and the book mentions it a couple of times, I'll go ahead and run a different keyed 12v source. I see that I can use the screws on carb next to it as a ground. Is that right?

quote for the heater flow, water is pumped into the block at the 2 sides of the pump, down the block, up thru the heads from the rear to the front, then to the tstat and out. so the takeoff next to the tstat housing is good for that part, I just thnk the other side MAY be too far back on the block, I really am not sure on this one. it may be fine, it may not. one of the sbc conversion guys should know, for how they hooke theirs up.

Either my splice into the sensor wire did not make contact (push-on clip) or my gauge is bad. I still got no reading on the temp gauge. I'll just cut into it on my next try.

quote for the oil sender, no need to move it. I;ve seen them mounted there, and honestly, I think the high mounts show a more realistic oil pressure, as it is seen at the cam bearings, not right at the output of the pump. will see issues much faster that way. besides, I don't think you really have room for a sender in the stock location.

Cool! The more I can leave alone - the better!

quote for the fuel valve, loosen the nut on the stem, it is a packing nut, and may be too tight. re tighten it to avoid leaks after verifying the valve is open.

I got a nice surprise there! That brass valve WAS in the off position. Fuel pressure went right up to 6lbs. I guess the carb was surprised by the pressure because it started spewing fuel - and it was just missing the light bulb I had left ON under the car! The hold-down bolt for the fuel line was loose. I used an 11/16 to tighten it down, but it's wierd how there is not much of the head of the bolt to hold on to. Is there a special tool for this? Then - once I tightened it, I notice the hose was a little loose, so I tightened the clamp - and it wasn't even squeezing the line. The threads of the tension screw let go of the strap. There is a new one there now and no fuel is leaking. Jeez!

So, I ran the engine until the thermostat opened and none of the gauges worked. I see that there is an opening just below the coolant cap - facing the carb (photo below). It looks like a good place for a temp sensor for the aftermarket gauge!! What do you think?

Thanks again. I appreciate all the help.

I saw that tstat port in the other photo, problem with that spot is that you won;t see temp till the tstat opens, not ot mention, if it is a drop in tstat, the element of the sensor would block the opening! If I had to modify this in any way, I would have put the T on the top of the intake where that elbow is and put the sensor there. that would be the temp of the water leaving the block/head.
Actually, if you look just foward of that there are 2 dimples where I would expect there should have been plugged ports that would be where most senders would be. I think where it is now, it will always read low as it is getting water right after the pump which is really from the radiator/heater core/ under care tubing cooled water.
right now tho, you have to sort out the wiring, without knowing what wires you have going where, it;s reall gonna be hard getting anything to work!

Glad you got the fuel issues sorted, that will make it run alot better .

for the choke, is that a 2 wire electric? the hose there is blocking it. most of the ones I had seen are 1 wire units, and get ground thru the shell, but they probably updated that to get a definative ground. don't use those screws on the side of the bowl!!! use the small philips on the top leg if anything, the one in the pic that is just below the hose going into the tube just above the choke.

quote Originally posted by tjm4fun:I saw that tstat port in the other photo, problem with that spot is that you won;t see temp till the tstat opens, not ot mention, if it is a drop in tstat, the element of the sensor would block the opening! If I had to modify this in any way, I would have put the T on the top of the intake where that elbow is and put the sensor there. that would be the temp of the water leaving the block/head.

Good call! I bought a standard temp sensor this afternoon to put in the opening over the T-stat, and thought about the location on the way home -realizing just what you said - the temp will only be accurate when the T-stat is open. I never even thought about it not being able to open at all...

quote Actually, if you look just foward of that there are 2 dimples where I would expect there should have been plugged ports that would be where most senders would be. I think where it is now, it will always read low as it is getting water right after the pump which is really from the radiator/heater core/ under care tubing cooled water.

I guess those dimples are designed to be tapped out for other sensors. I've never tapped a thread, so it would be new to me, but it may just be the way to go. Otherwise, I will have all that ugly plumbing right out in the open. Since there is not heating system, would I be safe just plugging the intake opening with the new sensor I just bought and use the other two-wire sensor to fill the hole in the block until I do put in the heater system? If so, what do I use as a sealant on the threads? I have RTV (red) for the manifold gasket if that will work.

quote right now tho, you have to sort out the wiring, without knowing what wires you have going where, it;s reall gonna be hard getting anything to work!

Well, I know which one is the sensor wire for the aftermarket gauge, and once it is hooked to a sensor on the manifold, it will be good enough for me to get her on the road for a test run. I do need to sort out those other wires down below to get the stock gauge and dummy light working!

quote Glad you got the fuel issues sorted, that will make it run alot better .

While it did provide more fuel pressure, it did not take care of the fuel-starvation issue. Even when warm, the engine wanted to stall any time I gave it the gas - unless I REALLY babied it. It's actually worse now - even with the bad spark plug wire replaced. I can still only give it gas in the smallest of increments. I need to study those Holly manuals I guess

quote for the choke, is that a 2 wire electric? the hose there is blocking it. most of the ones I had seen are 1 wire units, and get ground thru the shell, but they probably updated that to get a definative ground. don't use those screws on the side of the bowl!!! use the small philips on the top leg if anything, the one in the pic that is just below the hose going into the tube just above the choke.

Yes, it's a 2-wire electric. I picked up some wire tips so I can hook her up. I believe one install photo shows the ground running over to one of the 4 bolts on top of the secondary diaphram casing. I still don't know which size/model of Holley carb I have yet. Any clue how to find out which Holly carb I have? It looks a lot like Part #: 0-8007 (390 CFM), but that seems small for a crate engine like this. It's supposed to have 330hp/385tq. Is it time to get a better carb?

Do I have more questions than you've ever seen, or what?! (see - there's another one...) I guess I need to hook up with some SBC experts here in southern Maryland for a good carb lesson.

In no paritcular order:
I sure hope that is not a 390 cfm carb, that isn;t big enough for a 3.8l v6! I would hope it is in the 700 cfm range! 700-750 pops into mind as being about right, but I may be thinking of another motor.
if the electric choke is not working, the choke will be on all the time and will cause the engine to run like you describe, you're basically choking the motor all the time. fix that and be sure it opens after the motor starts to warm.

now for the temp sender issue. that hose loop is serving a function, it is acting as a bypass for the coolant around the tstat, without that, you will have problems. some coolant must flow in order to circulate the warmed coolant up to the tstat so it knows when to start opening.
what you could do, for now is drill a bypass hole in the tstat disk, about 1/8" is fine. then you could get away with plugging that intake manifold port with a sensor. I would not run like that forever, but it should work for now, at least til you determine if you have any cooling issues. (tstats are relatively cheap, so no biggie replacing it later)
for the sensors, pickup some teflon pipe sealant at home depot, not the tape, the can of paste. use a layer of that on the threads so you wlil be sure of good ground contact. if you only have tape, just use 1 wrap around the threads. I would not use rtv as a thread sealant, at least not on a sending unit.
as for drilling and tapping the manifold, well, if you haven't done that, and don;t have pipe taps and correct drill sizes, I would leave that be, you dont; want to screw up the manifold.

and as for you asking questions, well, I have 2 kids .. girls... I'm used to questions.
If you werent; so far away, I'd come over and run thru it with you, at least get you reasonably comfortable with a carbed 8. (not that I am a guru, but I can get em running acceptably... I have 2 sbc 350's carbed in my boat, 1976 motors that purr like kittens.)

Booktext]

quote Originally posted by tjm4fun:In no paritcular order: I sure hope that is not a 390 cfm carb, that isn;t big enough for a 3.8l v6! I would hope it is in the 700 cfm range! 700-750 pops into mind as being about right, but I may be thinking of another motor. if the electric choke is not working, the choke will be on all the time and will cause the engine to run like you describe, you're basically choking the motor all the time. fix that and be sure it opens after the motor starts to warm. now for the temp sender issue. that hose loop is serving a function, it is acting as a bypass for the coolant around the tstat, without that, you will have problems. some coolant must flow in order to circulate the warmed coolant up to the tstat so it knows when to start opening. what you could do, for now is drill a bypass hole in the tstat disk, about 1/8" is fine. then you could get away with plugging that intake manifold port with a sensor. I would not run like that forever, but it should work for now, at least til you determine if you have any cooling issues. (tstats are relatively cheap, so no biggie replacing it later) for the sensors, pickup some teflon pipe sealant at home depot, not the tape, the can of paste. use a layer of that on the threads so you wlil be sure of good ground contact. if you only have tape, just use 1 wrap around the threads. I would not use rtv as a thread sealant, at least not on a sending unit. as for drilling and tapping the manifold, well, if you haven't done that, and don;t have pipe taps and correct drill sizes, I would leave that be, you dont; want to screw up the manifold. and as for you asking questions, well, I have 2 kids .. girls... I'm used to questions. If you werent; so far away, I'd come over and run thru it with you, at least get you reasonably comfortable with a carbed 8. (not that I am a guru, but I can get em running acceptably... I have 2 sbc 350's carbed in my boat, 1976 motors that purr like kittens.)

Thank, Man-

On the carb size issue, here is a shot of the 390 cfm model and a shot of mine. The only difference I can see is the part on mine that is circled . It has no use, but looks like it could be tapped if needed. I guess it's possible that many of them look similar - but these are very close. The other difference that my power leads on the choke are angled away from each other instead of parallel to each other.

I have a thread over on an SBC forum asking about identifying Holley carbs. I can't find a number on mine, so all I can do is compare photos for now.




I'll get that choke hooked up soon and report back.

If that carb does end up being a 390, which do you like better - Holley, Edelbrock or something else? It may be time to go shopping.[/booktext]

OK - it turns out that it is a 600cfm model (4160 - #6619-1
3324), so I feel much better.

Should I go bigger?

[This message has been edited by Saxman (edited 10-28-2006).]

HEHE rough question. that is a good size for a street car. if you had a monster cam, big tube headers, and balanced for planning to rev 5k or more, then go bigger.
one thing you don;t want to do is over size a carb, it will kill the performance. you base a carb on the max rpm cfm flow, +- a smidge (like that technical term?) depending on the volumetric efficiency of the setup. now that's too complex for a non race motor. get the choke working, fuel pressure right, and then run it. you may need to adjust the acclerator pump to get the right squirt when you floor it, and then set the correct springs on the secondary so they open at the right time. openeing too soon bogs the motor with loss of air flow and rich mix due to the added volume thatt can get into the motor. opening too late will cause a bog, but usually a lean out bog. hard to tell the difference. If the carb was ordered for that hp rated motor, then it should be good, may just need a little tweaking. if anything it's easier to make a smaller cfm carb work than an over cfm carb. neither one will be optimum , but the smaller one will be much more drivable.
Baby steps here, get it running good, give it a hard run and pull a few plugs and look at the color. now they are likely black from cold runs and the choke stuck on. a few good runs, a wot or 2 and then they should be valid to guage where you are .

quote Originally posted by Saxman: OK - it turns out that it is a 600cfm model, so I feel much better. Should I go bigger?

That should be enough, it should give you good crisp throttle response. I just went down to an edelbrock 600 from a holley 650 because the holley was leaking and running so rich. The edelbrock has nice crisp throttle response but doesn’t seem to want to cruise as well as the holley did, idle is dead on but it just seems to stumble when I’m not stepping on it. I guess I will have to buy a metering rod kit and start to tweak it. I would say stay with what you have for right now and fix the other issues first.

quote Originally posted by tjm4fun:HEHE rough question. that is a good size for a street car. if you had a monster cam, big tube headers, and balanced for planning to rev 5k or more, then go bigger. one thing you don;t want to do is over size a carb, it will kill the performance. you base a carb on the max rpm cfm flow, +- a smidge (like that technical term?) depending on the volumetric efficiency of the setup. now that's too complex for a non race motor. get the choke working, fuel pressure right, and then run it. you may need to adjust the acclerator pump to get the right squirt when you floor it, and then set the correct springs on the secondary so they open at the right time. openeing too soon bogs the motor with loss of air flow and rich mix due to the added volume thatt can get into the motor. opening too late will cause a bog, but usually a lean out bog. hard to tell the difference. If the carb was ordered for that hp rated motor, then it should be good, may just need a little tweaking. if anything it's easier to make a smaller cfm carb work than an over cfm carb. neither one will be optimum , but the smaller one will be much more drivable. Baby steps here, get it running good, give it a hard run and pull a few plugs and look at the color. now they are likely black from cold runs and the choke stuck on. a few good runs, a wot or 2 and then they should be valid to guage where you are .

Yup - baby steps work for me. My engine work experience is zilch, so I am learning everything as I go. I have plenty of time working on most car repairs - except for engines.

quote Originally posted by Jake_Dragon:That should be enough, it should give you good crisp throttle response. I just went down to an edelbrock 600 from a holley 650 because the holley was leaking and running so rich. The edelbrock has nice crisp throttle response but doesn’t seem to want to cruise as well as the holley did, idle is dead on but it just seems to stumble when I’m not stepping on it. I guess I will have to buy a metering rod kit and start to tweak it. I would say stay with what you have for right now and fix the other issues first.

Thanks you guys. "Doc-" may be coming over Wednesday (I got a kitchen pass) so we can pull the intake manifold and get her sealed up - and maybe even tap a new input for the temp gauge so there is not an ugly T-fitting on top of the intake. I've haven't pulled a distributor before, so let the learning begin! I also noticed that the valve cover bolts were pretty loose, letting a little oil get in around the base of the carb, so we'll make sure everything is nice and snug (to specs) so there are no more stains on the garage floor.

Now I wonder if the carb on the other V8 (Fino) is too much. It's an Edelbrock 650 on top of a weaker crate engine rated somewhere between 230-245hp. It sounds like I certainly don't need the extra flow - especially on a lower output motor. I guess it will be OK if I get around to changing the heads one day. It does seem to run well and get decent mileage though. I think it gets around 20mpg because I haven't stepped on the gas much.

Once the Purple-Pain is running well, I'll have to tow it down to Lakeland to show my dad - and you and I can take these V8s out on the town, Jake!

Ah! if you are pulling the intake, thatis the perfect time to drill and tap for a sensor. if you get real tap- happy you could put 2 in, one for the aftermarket and one for the stock one! since you have the guage and all
Good luck! it will be a good learning experience.
BTW, us a paper thin layer of rtv, permatex ultra black on the valve cover gasket to head after you wipe off any oil on the 2 surfaces, it will make for a nice seal.

I have been busy with the car/intake over the last few days (thanks for the help, "Doc-"), but ran into a few major setbacks. This car will not be on the road any time soon. I am trying to get hold of Yons (Steve) at Yons Racing (Colliers, WV) to see what the story is with the engine.

I am sure Yons will have some answers for me soon. More to come tomorrow evening!

Those are NOT Vortec heads. Check on the one with the valve cover off for the casting no.
There are 2 intake coolant ports in each head (1 at each end). The port in the center is for exhaust heat to the carb pad.
Doesn't look like any mods were done to that part of your intake.

quote Originally posted by HarryG:Those are NOT Vortec heads. Check on the one with the valve cover off for the casting no. There are 2 intake coolant ports in each head (1 at each end). The port in the center is for exhaust heat to the carb pad. Doesn't look like any mods were done to that part of your intake.

Thanks, Harry! The casting # is 464045 - what seems to be a pre-87 cast iron head. The block casting is 10066036...350......2 or 4...Target Master/Goodwrench crate motor, 2-piece rear seal, "Hecho en Mexico"

What is the reason for the coolant ports at each end of the head if only one end is being used?

I'm mainly wondering what hp/tq this engine was set up for. It seems to look a lot like the 290hp crate engine over on the Summit Racing site, but Yons said he paid $2800 for the 330hp Vortec model. I don't understand how these could get mixed up.

Sorry for the stupid questions, but I'm trying to get a basic understanding of how these engines are put together.

[This message has been edited by Saxman (edited 10-08-2006).]

Your questions are not stupid, but, your timing is a little off...........
It's too bad you didn't ask before you finalized the deal.
If it were me, I'd grab a friend (for a witness) and go visit the seller for a serious face-to-face discussion. There's a BIG $ difference between a Targetmaster and the 330 HP version. I'd be wanting to see some receipts from GM/Summit or whoever...........and maybe some sort of refund on the purchase price.

Just my .02
Harry

[This message has been edited by HarryG (edited 10-08-2006).]

quote Originally posted by HarryG:Your questions are not stupid, but, your timing is a lttle off........... It's too bad you didn't ask before you finalized the deal. If it were me, I'd grab a friend (for a witness) and go visit the seller for a serious face-to-face discussion. There's a BIG $ difference between a Targetmaster and the 330 HP version. I'd be wanting to see some receipts from GM/Summit or whoever...........and maybe some sort of refund on the purchase price. Just my .02 Harry

Yeah - a $1500 difference in engine prices in my book according to what he said he paid and what this engine would cost me. Book values on these engines shows a $2000 difference. We'll see what the seller (forum member "Yons") at Yon's Racing has to say.

I went out looking for new gaskets tonight but these friggin' auto parts stores can't find parts for crate engines. I guess I'll be going to Jegs or Summit to find the right gaskets.

(last two messages edited to add "booktext" feature)

[This message has been edited by Saxman (edited 10-07-2006).]

I talked to Steve (Yons) tnight and he said that is really is a 330hp crate engine from Summit. He is looking for the documentation now. The original link he sent to me (to show which engine) was a Vortec-headed 330hp engine, but he says that this one is a non-Vortec engine rated at 330hp. I can't find anything like it on the Summit site, so I hope he can show me what really is there.

I had to order the gaskets from Jegs. I should have them this week and I plan to put them on next weekend. Wish me luck!

been away a few days. Just to clear up some things, the heads have the coolamt ports on each end, as they are symmetrical, and can go on either side. the flow as I said is thru the block to the rear, thru the heads to the front then out to the tstat then out.
the port in the middle is ehasut heat riser, it is there for the egr, or choke (if not electric) and to warm the base of the carb.

[This message has been edited by tjm4fun (edited 10-09-2006).]

quote Originally posted by tjm4fun:been away a few days. Just to clear up some things, the heads have the coolamt ports on each end, as they are symmetrical, and can go on either side. the flow as I said is thru the block to the rear, thru the heads to the front then out to the tstat then out. the port in the middle is ehasut heat riser, it is there for the egr, or choke (if not electric) and to warm the base of the carb.

Thanks for the info. That makes sense since I can see coolant in the rear ports, but didn't know how it got there.

I have still not heard from Yons with details on this engine, but I don't see how it can be 330hp with these heads. I'm crossing my fingers, but I'm not counting on it.

New gaskets were mailed today along with a plug for the rear coolant overflow outlet. Does anyone have an adapter for the 1/4" temp sensor? I can't find one around here (I think it's 1/2", but maybe it's a different size. It was pre-drilled onto the Edelbrock intake). I'd like to get her on the road next weekend - at least for a few minutes!

Thanks again-