Aircraft in flight don't vibrate like crazy. An automobile engine vibrates because it's got several pounds of mass going back and forth several hundred to several thousand times a minute inside of it. A turbine has ZERO reciprocating mass and is dead smooth... and bolts can STILL work loose.

If you think helicopters don't vibrate you haven't ever taken a ride in one. They have shock absorbers on the rotor blades about six feet long and believe me those blades flop. Which is where the undeniably sound of a helicopter comes from. They shake violently, I have literally seen bolts falling out in flight. Of course they are non critical bolts, but have still seen it.

The engines on my aircraft (Airbus A320) always vibrate to some extent. Some tail numbers more than others. Correct me if I'm wrong Alex4mula, but your safety wire is very thick (spring steel maybe?) and won't bend as easy as the safety wire used on aircraft. Aircraft wire is smaller and is twisted using a special tool and tied off "banjo tight" as said before.

Good job on working out all the little kinks. Its always cool to see how someone fixes a problem.

[This message has been edited by Hudini (edited 11-28-2006).]

quote Originally posted by Hudini: The engines on my aircraft (Airbus A320) always vibrate to some extent. Some tail numbers more than others. Correct me if I'm wrong Alex4mula, but your safety wire is very thick (spring steel maybe?) and won't bend as easy as the safety wire used on aircraft. Aircraft wire is smaller and is twisted using a special tool and tied off "banjo tight" as said before. Good job on working out all the little kinks. Its always cool to see how someone fixes a problem.

Yes this wire is very thick and stiff. It is not like those that you tie around bolts. It is funny because I never had problems with those bolts (to head) coming off. Only reason I am using them is because I am using regular gaskets instead of RTV. The bolts that do get loose on me are the three on the collectors. For those I found out that putting a second one below would hold them.
On another note I just found out that I will need to cut and modify both, front and rear exhaust components. When I installed the F40 I paid close attention to leave clearance between trany and cradle as per Archie's video. Doing that I think I raised that end enough to cause me problems on the rear exhaust in addition to all the other changes. Also I decided to cut the shock tower to get the clearance I need for the TB. I will weld some plates to cover it and reinforce it a little. More work....

Plate constructed and ready to weld.

Almost done. Stay tuned that a running video is coming tomorow!

Here my new clearanc problem areas resolved.

quote Originally posted by Will: Aircraft in flight don't vibrate like crazy.

You obviously have never flown a single-engine airplane over open water or over mountainous terrain at night.

Reciprocating aircraft engines, in general, shake like crazy even when they're running "smoothly." A typical aircraft engine displacement is 90 cubic inches (1.5 liters) per cylinder, and most of the ancillary systems (induction, fuel, ignition, etc.) still represent the very best of 1930s technology! Added to that, operation over open water or over mountains at night is guaranteed to put the engine into "auto-rough" mode. Been there, done that!

Looks like this thread is about me and plane vibrations only... Well today we took out the exhaust flanges were they meets the headers and re-angle new ones and all issues with the exhaust were solved. But I have a damn oil leak. Still not sure where it is coming from. Very sneaky one but not a show stopper. We also bled the clutch and tested shifting (still on towers). Wow!! Two things. First I would pay the $3000 trany dealer cost just to be able to have a system so easy to bleed. Compared to bleeding a Fiero system this is a candy dream. Second the shifting. OMG! This is so nice and smooth!!! I got a climax just feeling that Well as promised here are couple of videos of it idling. Not bad for a cam with 0.576 lift and marginal duration. Thanks God for these fuel injected designed cams. Also it sounds even better with the whole system connected today so I may get another video if I see interest. In the meantime I think this may be all for now until I hit the dyno and come back to update with those numbers. From now until then it is tuning time C'ya.

This one shows the temp after idling about 15 mins and the current rich idle AFR.


Another one



Enjoy

[This message has been edited by Alex4mula (edited 09-12-2007).]

do you use the stock fiero shifter or does it have to be modified to work correctly?thanks ,i really enjoy your thread .

quote Originally posted by wftb: do you use the stock fiero shifter or does it have to be modified to work correctly?thanks ,i really enjoy your thread .

Thanks. Archie use a modified 4 speed shifter. I think the main reason for this is that reverse is located the same way as the 4 speed (left front) and it needs a stop mechanism to avoid getting into reverse instead of 1st.

Sounds and looks awesome! Really looking forward to the dyno runs. Maybe some burn outs & donuts?

quote Originally posted by John Boelte: Sounds and looks awesome! Really looking forward to the dyno runs. Maybe some burn outs & donuts?

Thanks. Took a long test ride yesterday. Everything is more or less ok. The engine dies when I get suddenly to a stop (like at a red light) but otherwise feels fine. I have that small oil leak to check and I think I may have some exhaust leak as exhaust doesn't sound as I like. But it may be the tune. I measured vacuum and I lost 1" (16" vs 17") at idle. Cooling is perfect. The shifting is smooth but needs get to use to. Even if ratios are close to the Getrag the new 5th seems like too high now. The Spec clutch is nice and smooth with no chattering. The shifter center console interferes with the shifter when moving to reverse position so I have to deal with that too. Also speedo is not working as I'm waiting for an interface from Archie to take care of that.

Beautiful work, man.

How does the shifter throw feel compared to the Getrag? (Fore/aft).

quote Originally posted by sspeedstreet: Beautiful work, man. How does the shifter throw feel compared to the Getrag? (Fore/aft).

I had a short shifter and now have the regular 4 speed so it is not a good comparison. For whatever reason the throw on the fwd shifts (1/3/5) is very short. So short that sometimes I think it didn't engage. Then 2/4/6 feel more normal. It is like 1/3/5 takes 1/4" movement and 2/4/6 takes 1/2" movement. Reverse is tricky because once engaged (far left fwd) the shifter moves like to the center again so you think you are in 1st or 3rd. But then it moves backward ok .

Update: Bad alternator fried the ECM and then had a bad oil leak on the intake manifold to spoil my 6-speed enjoyment. Well, a new alternator and a very creative oil leak fix trick solved both problems and I'm on the road again Also the 1/3/5 shifting issue got solved. The cable was not traveling enough for those. A call from Archie, cable got adjusted and now this thing shifts like hot knife over butter Here is a final touch. I changed the TPIS TB plate for the correct Formula one. Now this is how it should had come from the factory back in 88

Very nice.

So Alex calls me up today but I'm on another call so he courteously leaves a message. As soon as I can, I listen to his message... He says he has the new ECM and Alternator installed and wants me to stop by. I call him back and tell him that I'm on calls for computer service but I can stop by in about an hour. Well, it’s more like two and you know how that goes. So I call him when I’m done but he can't come out and play right then as he is on Mr. Mom duty and the princess is fighting her naptime. So I show up about 45 minutes later and as I drive up, I see the stance of the little red car looking menacing and ready in the garage. I tell him, "She looks much better sitting on the ground with motor in it.” He immediately mentions that it drives better than it looks. At that instant, my mind immediately shifts to a 5 second fantasy of a little red hot rod ripping thru three gears from a traffic light and of course a broad smile overtakes my face. Just then the Mrs. arrives home to relieve him of his baby-sitting duties. He reaches into his pocket and says, "I have a four o'clock appt to get her aligned so let's go... you're driving." Again that same uncontrollable smile effortlessly reforms the lower part of my face. I put it in neutral and turn the key to an unfamiliar rumble. The upgraded cam and heads have done their job and I can tell just from the sound and vibrations that this is going to be fun. I put it in 5th and Alex jokingly asks me,
"Where are you going the driveway is back there?" At that point I remembered that he also upgraded the 5 speed to a 6 speed and so I glared down at the shift console to find the shift pattern. He comments that reverse is up and to the left so I obediently follow his direction. By now the V8 has a slight lope to it as if to say its time to get underway and put some road behind us. I back out of the driveway and when I try out the 1st gear, the car introduces me to the bounce of a lopey cam when under its power range. I pop in the clutch, give the throttle a quick pop to eliminate the cam bounce, ease out on the clutch and Chevy V8 answers my call to march forward. I gracefully accelerate and the response is smooth and VERY deliberate. As I listen to the tune of the beautiful note being played on the true dual exhaust, I realize that the familiarity is not of the same engine before the mods, but of a childhood friends father's '72 454 El Camino. The word incredible jumps to the forefront of my thoughts as I gently row thru 2nd andinto into 3rd gear. I tell Alex that it now sounds like a "Big Block" and he chuckles and says that Lou said the same thing. I check the gauges and notice the coolant is still not up to temp so I continue to drive it easily out of Alex's neighborhood. We make a right onto the main street leading from his development and I notice that the temp gauge is now almost operational so I jump on it while in second. Some pedestrians walking on the sidewalk about 80 feet from us snap their heads around to see what the commotion is about. I see the startled look on their faces but when they see the little red car, the look on their faces relaxes to the look of an old familiar friend (they obviously know Alex's car but didn't recognize the new sound). We exit Alex's development and I reacquaint myself with the Fiero's pedals by getting a little more demanding of the stout looking red Fiero. We quickly approach the first traffic light and of course it is red. Once we get the nod, we make a left onto a road with some spirited driving opportunities so I use up the short 1st gear rather quickly and start shifting into 2nd in mid-turn of the broad 4-lane intersection. Alex asks me why don't I get on it? I respond and snap the shifter into 2nd and time the accelerator activities appropriately to the shift. The Fiero's back-end steps out a bit but tells me to ride it out without adjustment so I faithfully follow its instruction. The tires continue their mild objection to the side load traction duties but the car tracks a flawless power turn and by the time we exit the broad turn, the rubber has reached temp. This is acknowledged by pegging our heads to the headrest as neither the tires nor the engine flinch on my request. Alex lets out a hearty laugh and before he can say anything, the six speed clicks easily from 2nd to 3rd and the sweet note of the V8 exhaust is working hard to get back to its revs before the shift. By this time, traffic appears to be rushing backward at me from the front but of course traffic is just being traffic so I fall into formation. I'm no dyno, but this car has some serious power and when spread across the close ratio of the six speed, has some serious acceleration. Alex's plan for me no doubt worked as I have two stock '87 GTs in my garage just waiting to get my attention... Stay tuned on that one.

Thanks for the phone call Alex and I want to tell you that is one sweet ride. I can't wait until you get the tuning dialed in, and take it to the dyno and strip to see the numbers!!!

BTW - I will be picking up the engine stand very, very shortly.

quote Originally posted by 87GTZ34: ..."let's go... you're driving."...

That would pretty much do it for me.

Nice write up. I'm quite envious.

Congrats, Alex!

[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 12-22-2006).]

quote Originally posted by Marvin McInnis: You obviously have never flown a single-engine airplane over open water or over mountainous terrain at night. Reciprocating aircraft engines, in general, shake like crazy even when they're running "smoothly." A typical aircraft engine displacement is 90 cubic inches (1.5 liters) per cylinder, and most of the ancillary systems (induction, fuel, ignition, etc.) still represent the very best of 1930s technology! Added to that, operation over open water or over mountains at night is guaranteed to put the engine into "auto-rough" mode. Been there, done that!

I know what aircraft piston engines are like. The vast majority of my flight time has been in turboprops and jets. Pistons belong on the ground and helicopters stay next to it.

quote Originally posted by Will: I know what aircraft piston engines are like. The vast majority of my flight time has been in turboprops and jets. Pistons belong on the ground and helicopters stay next to it.

It also gives you a lot of sphincter traction on the seats.

Congratulations Alex !

I know the long and challenging process must feel well worth it now !

Sounds like it must be a beast now !

A smooth shifting beast !!

Thanks all I'm really having fun now but still there is a lot of tuning. I got it from scary lean to rich so now I need to find the sweet spot. It is just a time consuming data gathering, burn prom, trial and test until it is right. I'm reading O2, RPM, MAP & TPS. Car looks like it is hooked for an electrocardiogram! Also got my last kit item (Dakota converter) to get the speedo to work right. No speeding ticket risk now

[This message has been edited by Alex4mula (edited 12-23-2006).]

Just a note from someone who has been there done that. When you get your speedometer hooked up and the proper signal to the ECM, your stalling problems when you stop will be taken care of.

------------------
..from beautiful Caledonia, WI
87 GT 5 speed Electron Blue V8 SBC TPI
87 GT 5 speed med red (for sale)
94 BMW 850Ci V12 (for sale)
93 GMC Typhoon (for sale)
05 Caddy STS
00 Pontiac GTP with GTX package
96 Suburban
92 Dodge Shadow 28K miles

quote Originally posted by typhoon: Just a note from someone who has been there done that. When you get your speedometer hooked up and the proper signal to the ECM, your stalling problems when you stop will be taken care of.

It wasn't that. The TPI idle needed to be adjusted for the new cam. After I did that it went away even without the speedo working. I only got a code for the speedo after driving for more than 15 min. But then again that is solved. Thanks.

Tuning is everything. But very time consuming and risky around here. To get a good WOT AFR reading I need to rev in 3rd gear to 6000 RPM. That takes me close to 100mph on heavy patroled FL roads. Good thing is I'm having some progress. First reading below was the tune I had with the previous engine. Of course very lean with the added air flow from the heads/intake. Then for safety I added a lot of fuel to take out slowly. That's the pig rich second reading mainly in the 11s. I'm tuning for 12.8:1 and slowly taking fuel off and measuring. Third and fourth charts show that. The last one is almost there. Just need to fix that lean peak from 4000-5000. Once I get this ok I'll hit the dyno. But now first to fix that oil hose that I blew off....

Just to put an end to this I'll include dyno results with the new setup. Clutch still slips when cold but once hot it seems to pull ok. Last dyno it did 236hp/342tq and now 304hp/366tq both at the wheels (SAE). So that's a 68hp/24tq gain. Not bad for a TPI I think. I adjusted fuel and timing at the session but there were no major gains from initial (+6hp/+9tq). Next thing I may try would be bigger headers (1 5/8" or more) and CAI I'm very happy with it because it was what I was looking for. Below are the pics of old and new dynos and here are some video links of the pull







New dyno;


Old dyno;

[This message has been edited by Alex4mula (edited 09-12-2007).]

Well... the SPEC 6 speed clutch failed at exactly 2700 miles even. It started to shift harder and harder and now it is very difficult to get into 1st. It shift fine with the engine shut off. Also it was (and is) vibrating so something is not round anymore inside there The pedal feels perfect so it is not hydraulic. This hydraulic slave is a beauty. This clutch never grabbed well since the begining so I'll see if I can get something better to hold the massive torque. Will keep you posted.

quote Originally posted by Alex4mula: Well... the SPEC 6 speed clutch failed at exactly 2700 miles even. It started to shift harder and harder and now it is very difficult to get into 1st. It shift fine with the engine shut off. Also it was (and is) vibrating so something is not round anymore inside there The pedal feels perfect so it is not hydraulic. This hydraulic slave is a beauty. This clutch never grabbed well since the begining so I'll see if I can get something better to hold the massive torque. Will keep you posted.

Was that a SPEC 3 +

let us know when you find out what failed. i'm still trying to decide whether or not to go with a solid hub for my 6 speed swap.

Jake; Not sure what type it is but it is closer in appearance to it as the stage 3 is a six puck design and this is not. I talked to SPEC today and they want me to send the unit and flywheel for inspection. They assure me it should hold ok the troque I have and that I should not need a solid hub. Will see. I'll try to take it down this weekend and post pictures of what I find.

quote Originally posted by Alex4mula: Well... the SPEC 6 speed clutch failed at exactly 2700 miles even. It started to shift harder and harder and now it is very difficult to get into 1st. It shift fine with the engine shut off. Also it was (and is) vibrating so something is not round anymore inside there The pedal feels perfect so it is not hydraulic. This hydraulic slave is a beauty. This clutch never grabbed well since the begining so I'll see if I can get something better to hold the massive torque. Will keep you posted.

Interesting, there is another resent post regarding a low mileage Spec clutch failure accompanied by some vibration. I wonder if they are using their own hub design or a pre existing hub from another application that fits the 6 spd splines. Centerforce didn't get very good press on the forum which is part of the reason Spec became so popular, but with what I have read here about Spec experiences over the past year I would continue to favor custom rebuilds before purchasing one since I was able to talk to the builder face to face about what I was doing and what the needs would be, I also had several choices. The dual friction disc I had made performed flawlessly so I used the same guys for the 6 spd disc.

If I were in your situation and Spec confirmed a defect in product (provided you have the option) I would request a refund and have it custom built locally. I was quoted about $180 for a new Kevlar disc but decided to have them rebuild the old disc to save time. The builder stated that Kevlar would last a very long time. They are also able to increase pressure plate clamping pressure also. Again this is due to the number of problems that seem to be cropping up with Spec lately.

quote Originally posted by Joseph Upson: Interesting, there is another resent post regarding a low mileage Spec clutch failure accompanied by some vibration. I wonder if they are using their own hub design or a pre existing hub from another application that fits the 6 spd splines. Centerforce didn't get very good press on the forum which is part of the reason Spec became so popular, but with what I have read here about Spec experiences over the past year I would continue to favor custom rebuilds before purchasing one since I was able to talk to the builder face to face about what I was doing and what the needs would be, I also had several choices. The dual friction disc I had made performed flawlessly so I used the same guys for the 6 spd disc. If I were in your situation and Spec confirmed a defect in product (provided you have the option) I would request a refund and have it custom built locally. I was quoted about $180 for a new Kevlar disc but decided to have them rebuild the old disc to save time. The builder stated that Kevlar would last a very long time. They are also able to increase pressure plate clamping pressure also. Again this is due to the number of problems that seem to be cropping up with Spec lately.

I had a custom build one on my previous V8. It worked excellent and never slipped but at about 5K miles a disc spring broke. When I compared its construction to the Spec I had I found that the Spec used much thicker metal in the tab that broke so it was obvious Spec had better construction.

quote Originally posted by Alex4mula: I had a custom build one on my previous V8. It worked excellent and never slipped but at about 5K miles a disc spring broke. When I compared its construction to the Spec I had I found that the Spec used much thicker metal in the tab that broke so it was obvious Spec had better construction.

There are several options when going with a custom built clutch and it is only as good as the builders materials and knowledge of the requirements and if you are working with someone who starts out trying to build a stronger clutch for a larger displacement engine with considerable more power using the stock Fiero clutch as a base then they are starting out wrong from the begining.

The builder I used immediately pointed out stronger areas of the G6 disc relative to other discs indicating he was aware of critical failure points. He also gave me the option to use a solid hub since the G6 flywheel contains the majority of the dampening effect. Your custom clutch still lasted nearly twice as long as his Spec clutch so there's not much of a mark against custom, maybe they both made the same mistake. Sometimes I wonder how much actual testing even if it's just crunching data on the materials strength goes into a manufacturers claims.

I had a rep dealing with exhaust tubing tell me stainless was much better than cast iron for a turbo application and that cast iron couldn't take the heat. He didn't know the melting point of iron is higher than for stainless and certainly "dropped the ball" by not being mindful that nearly all production turbo cars come with cast iron manifolds before making that statement.

quote Originally posted by Alex4mula: and CAI

Great power out of a TPI.

Get a Vortec 350 front cover & crank sensor, have a custom wheel made for that sensor which will give you the same reference pulse shape & pattern as the distributor, ditch the HEI for an MSD dist plug w/ cam synch and use LS1 coils with FAST eDist.

Once you've done all that, you can turn the TPI plenum around (or buy an HSR and install with plenum reversed).

I created a separate clutch failure thread here;
https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/086132.html

I'm happy to see that the water diverter I installed did its job and the front header has kept dry. No cracks yet. But the coating is flaking in that area. What a crap. Don't buy the Sandersons for your V8 build... Also the valve cover gasket started to leak. I used the Felpro pn# cork type that AFR recommended but I'll go now with something different.

Yup, that header's days are numbered.... again. You'd laugh if you saw the weld job I had done to keep my set of headers together for the time being. That center collector is built up a good inch or so. Looks weird as heck, but its gonna keep em together for a while.

Now that I solved my clutch issue I'm working on something I wanted to do for a long time. I'm installing a 4" intake routed to the fender. Here is my progress with a test panel. I installed it to see which type & size of scoop I needed. I'm thinking maybe I do a removable scoop using those race car type panel fasteners. That way it makes it easier to install the filter. My water pump is behind so that is why it sticks out. Also the filter is big.






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