First thanks Darth for the ecm comparisons (that ought to give me something to do for a while comparing them). The 7749 functions and abilities and such as listed by vortecfiero are all good. Since the 7730 and 7749 are so similar, do these also apply to the 7730? What does self-tuning (to a certain point) mean? And as compared to the Fiero's ecm? I thought that everytime you disconnected your battery that the ecm would have to relearn some parameters/values? Does the Fiero ecm not do that? With the use of a wideband O2 sensor, will the ecm make adjustments to the fuel and spark to keep the A/F ratio at where it is programmed tho keep it. Is this the self tuning that was mentioned? Who is moates and cooter? Please provide links to both. Thanks
I will defer to vortecfiero to answer these questions for you. I haven't had much experience with the 7749 nor reprogramming a factory GM ECM to work with a wideband.
Concerning a GM ECM's learning ability, yes they can do some limited learning and if you disconnect the battery, that would be lost. Different tuners have different tuning styles. Some prefer to disable closed loop mode and just tune in open loop using a wideband. I prefer to let the computer learn by itself, log the data, and then tune using those data logs. However, this is probably easier for me because of my level of understanding of scan data and years of experience. Different strokes for different folks. With that being said, the best way to tune for WOT fuel is by using a wide-band O2 sensor.
Ryan, I don't think the wiring you posted is going to work with using the coil pack like we discussed ( I see distributer wiring). Is there a different pinout to use for that method? Thanks, Jason
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10:12 AM
David DeVoe Member
Posts: 1358 From: Grand Blanc, MI US Registered: Jul 2001
Darth, I'm a bit confused on how to find some of these parts. The V6 memcal for instance, where is it if not in the ECM, and after reading a post about buying the ECM on ebay the part number listed wasn't 1227730. Won't that number appear on the part? and if not what number will be there. I'm also curious about the chance of buying a used ECM that is bad. What is the failure rate on these things. Thanks for any info. This is a very good thread, almost sounds like a must do. Dave
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11:19 AM
Alex4mula Member
Posts: 7403 From: Canton, MI US Registered: Dec 1999
This is very good info. Plus for you. Also once you swap to a 730 then you can drop a V8 TPI engine and easily run it with the same harness. That's what I'm doing but with a 165 and a $5D mask. Very probable I may try to upgrade it to the 730 later on. I may try it in my other 3.4 so I can learn to tune it and then move the V8. Like Darth said doing this swap is not too difficult at all. Just get a pin removal tool for the ECM connectors and some wire soldering equipment. If you want to ge into the tunning then get TunerCat or similar and educate yourself at DIYPROM at thirdgen.com. Great info there.
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11:26 AM
Darth Fiero Member
Posts: 5921 From: Waterloo, Indiana Registered: Oct 2002
FWIW there is a free/shareware scan tool software program out there that can be used with the 7730/7727 V6 ECM. It is FREESCAN and can be found here: http://andywhittaker.com/EC...abid/70/Default.aspx
Or did I mess up and need to buy a new chip from GM? Or do you have a spare I can buy?
How do I get you the info to reprogram the chip or will it work as is with a stock 2.8 distributor motor for now?
Yes, it apprears the mem-cal (PROM, chip, etc) is missing from the ECM in that auction. You will need to supply me with a V6 mem-cal to reprogram for this Fiero ECM swap. The other auction you listed for the AUJW mem-cal is exactly the mem-cal you need; and $20 isn't a bad price for one of these. GM charges more than that for a new one.
quote
Ryan, I don't think the wiring you posted is going to work with using the coil pack like we discussed ( I see distributer wiring). Is there a different pinout to use for that method? Thanks, Jason
Jason, the wiring is very similar between distributor and DIS V6 applications using the 7730 ECM; so you should still be able to use my wiring instructions for a DIS application. Just download the wiring pinouts for both the 7730 distributor (90-92 Camaro 3.1) and 7730 DIS (88-93 Beretta V6) from my website and compare the two. You will find there are some slight wiring differences at the ECM, but those are for subsystems that aren't necessary in the Fiero swap.
quote
Darth, I'm a bit confused on how to find some of these parts. The V6 memcal for instance, where is it if not in the ECM, and after reading a post about buying the ECM on ebay the part number listed wasn't 1227730. Won't that number appear on the part? and if not what number will be there. I'm also curious about the chance of buying a used ECM that is bad. What is the failure rate on these things. Thanks for any info. This is a very good thread, almost sounds like a must do. Dave
Dave, the ECM Service Number (part number) you need is 1227730. The 1227730 part number was later changed to 16196344 and 16198262 so any ECM carrying these service/part numbers will work for this swap.
The mem-cal contains the PROM chip, backup fuel chips, and knock sensor interface module. The mem-cal plugs into the computer and is located under the access cover. The mem-cal looks like this:
Concerning the failure rate of the 7730 ECM, it was no more greater than any other GM computer of the era. However, keep in mind the 7730 was a VERY COMMON ECM used in many GM cars for a wide year ranges so chances of coming across a bad 7730 ECM is not remote. The best advice I can give you when buying a used ECM is make sure whoever you get it from is willing to warranty it. Also, you might want to wait until the latest possible moment to purchase a used ECM; so in the event it is bad, it won't be out of the warranty/replacement period.
The new ACDELCO/GM part number for a reman 7730 ECM is 88999196. The GM p/n for a new 90-92 Camaro 3.1 V6 mem-cal is 16171406.
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This is very good info. Plus for you. Also once you swap to a 730 then you can drop a V8 TPI engine and easily run it with the same harness. That's what I'm doing but with a 165 and a $5D mask. Very probable I may try to upgrade it to the 730 later on. I may try it in my other 3.4 so I can learn to tune it and then move the V8. Like Darth said doing this swap is not too difficult at all. Just get a pin removal tool for the ECM connectors and some wire soldering equipment. If you want to ge into the tunning then get TunerCat or similar and educate yourself at DIYPROM at thirdgen.com. Great info there.
Alex, I used to have a 350 TPI that was running the 7165 ECM and $6E code mask. I then upgraded to the speed density 7730 ECM running $8D code mask and the drivability/response of the engine increased significantly with just the ECM swap alone. It's definately a worthwhile upgrade and there is also a bonus when doing this. VEMaster is a shareware software program that works with TTS Datamaster scan data logs and the $8D code mask to automatically adjust VE table values to help you tune. VEMaster works very well and pretty much can take care of your idle and part throttle fuel table adjustments automatically. Of course, if you have done much reading over at thirdgen you probably already know this.
-ryan
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08:29 PM
Jan 23rd, 2007
Alex4mula Member
Posts: 7403 From: Canton, MI US Registered: Dec 1999
Alex, I used to have a 350 TPI that was running the 7165 ECM and $6E code mask. I then upgraded to the speed density 7730 ECM running $8D code mask and the drivability/response of the engine increased significantly with just the ECM swap alone. It's definately a worthwhile upgrade and there is also a bonus when doing this. VEMaster is a shareware software program that works with TTS Datamaster scan data logs and the $8D code mask to automatically adjust VE table values to help you tune. VEMaster works very well and pretty much can take care of your idle and part throttle fuel table adjustments automatically. Of course, if you have done much reading over at thirdgen you probably already know this.
-ryan
Thanks. I am running speed density with the 165. The $5D code is a SD australian code that runs on the 165. I used the stock Fiero harness and all sensors. Just added couple of injector wires and bingo. Easiest fuel injected V8 in a Fiero but you need to be able to tune. The code is very simple and with minimal variables so the 730 has much more tuneability. That's why later on I may move to it
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08:00 AM
rjblaze Member
Posts: 1159 From: Bethlehem, Pa., United States Registered: May 2006
Just want to be sure of this......I have followed the thread and just have one question. I am planning on building a 3400 w/ 3.4l Camaro heads, stock (modified) intake setup, DIS, and a properly sized turbo arrangement. Is the 7730 the ECM for this swap....with proper coding? Or would the 7749 be better? Sorry if this was answered along the way, but I just didn't see it (or maybe couldn't get thru "the fog"). By the way, great thread to help us out with these computer woes!
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10:15 PM
Jan 24th, 2007
Fierobsessed Member
Posts: 4782 From: Las Vegas, NV Registered: Dec 2001
7730 hands down. The codes it normally runs are specific to that engine arrangment. Otherwise, you'll be adapting the 4.3L code to match your arrangment, as opposed to using the 3.1 Turbo code, specifically the AZRC code with the $8F Mask.
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03:37 AM
David DeVoe Member
Posts: 1358 From: Grand Blanc, MI US Registered: Jul 2001
Darth In your list of what to get you say the ECM and SOME wiring. I hate to nit pick but what does some mean in this instance? Do we need the harness out of the donor car? Dave
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10:57 AM
rjblaze Member
Posts: 1159 From: Bethlehem, Pa., United States Registered: May 2006
7730 hands down. The codes it normally runs are specific to that engine arrangment. Otherwise, you'll be adapting the 4.3L code to match your arrangment, as opposed to using the 3.1 Turbo code, specifically the AZRC code with the $8F Mask.
Agree 100%.
quote
Originally posted by David DeVoe:
Darth In your list of what to get you say the ECM and SOME wiring. I hate to nit pick but what does some mean in this instance? Do we need the harness out of the donor car? Dave
All you need is a 7730 ECM, it's connectors, and some wiring with those connectors (a length of about 6 inches should be enough). In addition, you will need some extra wires to run out to the engine to connect the inj driver grounds to the block, as well as the digital EGR and EVAP solenoid should you decide to wire up those devices. You should get wiring from the donor car if you can; BUT I STRONGLY RECOMMEND NOT USING wire you can buy from autozone in the engine compartment. Most of the wire autozone and other parts stores sell is not temperature rated for use in engine compartments near exhaust systems like factory GM wiring. You don't need a complete donor harness, unless you can get it for a really good price.
-ryan
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02:16 PM
Jan 26th, 2007
Fierofreak00 Member
Posts: 4221 From: Martville, NY USA Registered: Jun 2001
Will a PROM from a 92 Camaro 3.1L V6 work with a stock 2.8 with or without EGR updrades to electronic EGR. I am just trying to not have to reprogram the chip for a stock engine....Okay, I am cheap..no frugal. Yeah...frugal. That's the ticket!
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09:21 PM
Jan 27th, 2007
Darth Fiero Member
Posts: 5921 From: Waterloo, Indiana Registered: Oct 2002
Will a PROM from a 92 Camaro 3.1L V6 work with a stock 2.8 with or without EGR updrades to electronic EGR. I am just trying to not have to reprogram the chip for a stock engine....Okay, I am cheap..no frugal. Yeah...frugal. That's the ticket!
No, a stock 92 Camaro 3.1 chip will NOT work with a stock Fiero 2.8; with or without the digital EGR installed. It will need to be reprogrammed to work correctly with the stock Fiero 2.8 regardless if a digital EGR valve is present.
[This message has been edited by Darth Fiero (edited 01-27-2007).]
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12:01 AM
cropduster Member
Posts: 145 From: Stockbridge, Ga, USA Registered: Oct 2006
All you need is a 7730 ECM, it's connectors, and some wiring with those connectors (a length of about 6 inches should be enough). In addition, you will need some extra wires to run out to the engine to connect the inj driver grounds to the block, as well as the digital EGR and EVAP solenoid should you decide to wire up those devices. You should get wiring from the donor car if you can; BUT I STRONGLY RECOMMEND NOT USING wire you can buy from autozone in the engine compartment. Most of the wire autozone and other parts stores sell is not temperature rated for use in engine compartments near exhaust systems like factory GM wiring. You don't need a complete donor harness, unless you can get it for a really good price.
-ryan
I'm planning on doing this swap and I did a search for underhood wire. Came up with this: http://www.kayjayco.com/catPWireSelect. I'm not recommending this place, just letting people know there IS a source out there in all colors too.
------------------ Mick 1986 GT
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09:48 AM
Fierofreak00 Member
Posts: 4221 From: Martville, NY USA Registered: Jun 2001
Darth, any more progress for the EGR adapter plate?? I'm getting the components for this swap but I've got emissions in my area.....
I think I figured out a way to do this with GM parts and a little fabircation, but I need to get another part to be sure. I'll share my results with everyone in this thread. -Jason
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12:15 PM
FieroVin Member
Posts: 951 From: Raleigh, NC, USA Registered: May 2005
I think I figured out a way to do this with GM parts and a little fabircation, but I need to get another part to be sure. I'll share my results with everyone in this thread. -Jason
Jason is like Fiero MacGyver he finds a part from an old buick and makes it look like a stock Fiero option only better. Keep us posted.
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01:28 PM
Darth Fiero Member
Posts: 5921 From: Waterloo, Indiana Registered: Oct 2002
Darth, any more progress for the EGR adapter plate?? I'm getting the components for this swap but I've got emissions in my area.....
Mick, I am busy learning Pro Engineer (similar to AutoCAD) so I can get my design transferred to a CAD drawing so any machinist can plug the design into a CNC and machine up a plate. Still going to be some time before it is ready. Until then, I am willing to share my paper sketch of the EGR adapter plate with anyone who emails me requesting it. The sketch isn't perfect, but it includes the dimensions and major information needed to make this adapter.
-ryan
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11:51 PM
Jan 28th, 2007
cropduster Member
Posts: 145 From: Stockbridge, Ga, USA Registered: Oct 2006
Thanks for the response and your work on this Ryan, I'm saving this thread so I'll know when someone figures this out. Boy I really miss working for a major airline (got laid off after 23 years). Our machine shop had the latest and greatest CNC machines and the guys back there were fantastic. They could really make some cool stuff out of our scrap after hours!!
------------------ Mick 1986 GT
Dang, RockAuto shows that EGR valve for $262. Better look for one of those in the salvage yards too!!!
[This message has been edited by cropduster (edited 01-28-2007).]
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08:03 AM
PFF
System Bot
ohio86se Member
Posts: 1308 From: akron, ohio, summit Registered: Mar 2002
Mick, I am busy learning Pro Engineer (similar to AutoCAD) so I can get my design transferred to a CAD drawing so any machinist can plug the design into a CNC and machine up a plate. Still going to be some time before it is ready. Until then, I am willing to share my paper sketch of the EGR adapter plate with anyone who emails me requesting it. The sketch isn't perfect, but it includes the dimensions and major information needed to make this adapter.
-ryan
Ryan,
Have you ever used SolidWorks? I have used AutoCad for about 10 year and SolidWorks for about 5. Do you need any modeling done for the parts you are designing? I can do that. Its my normal job. Just let me know
------------------
" DRIVE IT LIKE YOU LOVE IT"
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08:30 AM
vortecfiero Member
Posts: 996 From: Toronto Area, Canada Registered: Feb 2002
I will defer to vortecfiero to answer these questions for you. I haven't had much experience with the 7749 nor reprogramming a factory GM ECM to work with a wideband.
Concerning a GM ECM's learning ability, yes they can do some limited learning and if you disconnect the battery, that would be lost. Different tuners have different tuning styles. Some prefer to disable closed loop mode and just tune in open loop using a wideband. I prefer to let the computer learn by itself, log the data, and then tune using those data logs. However, this is probably easier for me because of my level of understanding of scan data and years of experience. Different strokes for different folks. With that being said, the best way to tune for WOT fuel is by using a wide-band O2 sensor.
-ryan
the basic .bin data will not be lost... only the error codes and BLM positons.. long term trim and short term trim.... a few min of idleing when warmed up will put you back more or less to where you were.
[This message has been edited by vortecfiero (edited 01-28-2007).]
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10:19 AM
Darth Fiero Member
Posts: 5921 From: Waterloo, Indiana Registered: Oct 2002
Have you ever used SolidWorks? I have used AutoCad for about 10 year and SolidWorks for about 5. Do you need any modeling done for the parts you are designing? I can do that. Its my normal job. Just let me know
Never used SolidWorks. The last version of AutoCAD I was trained to use was available in 1992 (can't even remember the version). If you would like to take a look at the design sketch I made of this adapter plate, shoot me an email and I would be happy to send it to you.
I was able to make my own adapter using the egr stand off from the 3.1 liter in the Camaro/Firebird (I'm still trying to find out if you can get the same piece from another car). I then fabbed up a mounting plate to mount to the original Fiero stand off. I used 1/4 steel to make the plate, and then cut off the end of the 3.1's egr adapter and welded it together. As you can see I have a set focoa headers and am using the 3.4's intake ( I like how it looks) so I had to move the egr stand off from the original position a little to the left to clear the throttle body and cables. I'm not worried about the position of the distributer as I won't be using it. I've been talking to Ryan and I want to use the coil pack from the 3.4 to clean up the engine bay and give my car a unique look. Kinda cool huh?
So you just turn the 3.4L intake around and it fits? Or is there more involved?
I'd like to say yes but, it's not that easy. Due to the egr location on the intake, the throttle body position and cable hook ups, fuel rail configuration and most importantly the area the t-stat housing sits in. That area needs to be modified to fit where the housing goes.
This isn't really for the faint of heart, alot of things need to be fabbed to work. I'll keep an update in another thread shortly, so that I don' t pollute this one. Please disregard the duct tape, I'm using it to keep the intake free of crap.....
[This message has been edited by Fierofreak00 (edited 02-02-2007).]
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09:01 AM
PFF
System Bot
David DeVoe Member
Posts: 1358 From: Grand Blanc, MI US Registered: Jul 2001
And for the record I like your idea of using the 3.4 Camaro intake. That split plenum design has shorter runners than a stock Fiero 2.8 intake plenum which will translate into more capability for higher RPM performance. I have never personally tried to use the 3.4 camaro intake with the Fiero water neck, but I can see where you ran into problems. I hope you get it figured out.
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01:20 AM
FieroVin Member
Posts: 951 From: Raleigh, NC, USA Registered: May 2005
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