I might be able to answer some of your questions...
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Originally posted by goatnipples2002:
Is there really a benefit to using the aftermarket rails over the stock ones?
Not that I have seen any proof of unless you have an intercooler. If that's the case, you would be better off using aftermarket rails instead of modifying the stockers.
I remember a few years ago hearing that some of the vendors that were selling aftermarket rails were going around making claims that the stock rails limited engine power because they couldn't supply enough fuel flow for high-hp applications or some such crap. I don't recall ever seeing any flow tests to prove their statements and I have yet to see anyone exceed the capabilities of a stock fuel rail setup on anything other than a purpose-built racecar. So draw your own conclusions here.
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Is it pure aesthetics or makes the install easier?
Aesthetics is probably the main reason why most people choose to purchase and install aftermarket fuel rails. Concerning ease of installation, some of the aftermarket fuel rail setups I have seen are much more complicated and require some assembly before you can even put them on the engine.
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Is there a preferred adjustable fuel pressure regulator?
Why do you need one? All fuel changes should be made thru the PCM programming - period. Any changes you make at the FPR will most likely be counter-acted by the PCM as it adapts fuel delivery based on O2 sensor signals. Sometimes this adapted (or learned) fuel delivery strategy can carry over and apply to wide-open-throttle fuel delivery. If you are trying to correct a problem you have with the fuel delivery you should get your PCM tuned or retuned. If all you are trying to do is increase the flow rate of your injectors by boosting fuel pressure you would be better off just buying larger injectors.
In case you haven't seen this yet, here are pics of what I am doing for fuel rails on 3800 Series 2 SC engine swaps in Fieros...
(stainless steel 3800 Series 3 SC fuel rails with remote-mount FPR)
I don't have an L67 in my car and I am not sure I will but if so I will start the swap in a few months if all goes as is.When I 1st thought about the lines I just thought no problem get some SS line and some -AN fittings and done.Can I just run lines from the stock 2.8s to the stock l67s? I only see one line in your pics does the L67 run on a returnless system? Are those rails in the pics stock for the series 3? I am just trying to make this swap as "plug and play" as possible.
Is this what the stock L67 fuel lines look like except the barb fittings?
[This message has been edited by goatnipples2002 (edited 07-06-2007).]
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04:53 AM
CowsPatoot Member
Posts: 2792 From: Skidway Lake, MI Registered: May 2007
Stock fuel lines on a 1999 from a Regal GS...as left by the yard that pulled it:
The stock system does have a return. My understanding is that people are converting it to returnless. I would like to hear about the advantages of changing it over. Is there a performance advantage? Or just the advantage of running a single line instead of two?
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10:53 AM
Darth Fiero Member
Posts: 5921 From: Waterloo, Indiana Registered: Oct 2002
The stock system does have a return. My understanding is that people are converting it to returnless. I would like to hear about the advantages of changing it over. Is there a performance advantage? Or just the advantage of running a single line instead of two?
The only advantages to converting to returnless is to eliminate the 2nd fuel line connection to the engine, thus cleaning up the swap (also there is one less possible leak point up on the engine). However when doing this, a fuel pressure regulator is still required; you can't simply cap off the return and run the system returnless without using some kind of regulator (either pump mounted or otherwise). When I use the Series 3 rails I cut the regulator portion off the Series 2 rails and mount that down by the fuel filter where it ties into the return line going back to the tank as seen here:
One very important thing to keep in mind. I noticed in these 3800 Series 3 returnless fuel logs there was what appeared to be a vapor seperator plate. The Series 2 and aftermarket rails/logs I have seen have no such plate. I assume GM installed this plate to help make sure only liquid fuel would be able to get to the injectors. Remember that with a returnless system, fuel does not constantly circulate thru the rails, it just sits in there until it is used. You can imagine that when this fuel gets heated it can vaporize in the rails which I suppose could create a problem if there is no vapor seperation plate built-in. Although to tell the truth I haven't seen too many non-returnless rails modified to work in a returnless system exhibit fuel vaporization problems but then again how many are driven in extreme environments as well? When GM designs parts they have to consider all possible operating conditions and make parts accordingly.
So what if I don't want a returnless system? I assume the stock L67 is a return system...right? What do most do to connect the stock fiero lines to the stock L67 lines?
rather than hack up the fuel rails and do a mickey mouse install, order ls1 fuel rail quick connects from summit and saginaw an adapters and run an fuel line from the stock hard lines to the fuel rail. i also used 180 fittings so the fuel lines come up the firewall side and connect to a stock fuel rail. why risk fuel leakage/ fire when you can use factory style connectors?
[This message has been edited by Hurricane (edited 07-05-2007).]
Thanks hurricane. I had no intentions of doing a shitty hack job on my fuel lines. I just didn't know what to do about the lines. So the LS1 quick connects will connect to the stock L67 lines and the saginaw fittings work on the stock fiero lines...sweet problem solved. Thanks. Got any part #s?
[This message has been edited by goatnipples2002 (edited 07-06-2007).]
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01:10 AM
ignorant prodigy Member
Posts: 621 From: taunton, ma, usa Registered: Mar 2006
640850- the supply connection on the fuel rail (go out of stock fast) 640860- the return connection on the fuel rail 648060- supply M16 X 1.50 connects to fuel filter 648070- return M14 X 1.50 connects to return fuel line 610020- I used these hose ends.. they're not the 180 bend, they're just the striaght I'm also using 6an braided fuel lines
Another concern with returnless fuel rails is the un avoidable "burst" knock due to super heated fuel sitting in the fuel rail when launching. This is a big problem on some of the fancy versions of the series3 setups I have seen.
I just bend the stock rails a bit, and use the orginal gm saginaw connectors, and put rubber on and use a fuel injection hose clamp, has not even pretended to fail me yet. When you cut off the stock plastic melted on to the connectors, they offer a really nice place to slide rubber onto.
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03:10 PM
Dennis LaGrua Member
Posts: 15540 From: Hillsborough, NJ U.S.A. Registered: May 2000
rather than hack up the fuel rails and do a mickey mouse install, order ls1 fuel rail quick connects from summit and saginaw an adapters and run an fuel line from the stock hard lines to the fuel rail. i also used 180 fittings so the fuel lines come up the firewall side and connect to a stock fuel rail. why risk fuel leakage/ fire when you can use factory style connectors?
I do not view Ryans single feed fuel line w remote regulator as a "Micky Mouse" install. I'm using it also and it looks very neat and clean. The other benefit is that by using a tube, tube nut and flare nut at the end of the feed tube you tighten the AN fittings to the rail, thereby eliminating one potential problem point of failure that has plagued the 3800SC engines and has caused a number of fires. The slip on /clip on fitttings are prone to failure and have failed on many Grand Prixs causing major fires. . By using the slip on conectors you may be taking a chance and by reversing direction and installing a U bend in the feed and the return lines as your appraach shows you can be also be adding a restriction to fuel flow. While you are free to do your 3800SC install as you please, some folks do it differently for good reasons.
------------------ 87GT 3.4 Turbo- 0-60 5.2 seconds 2006 3800SC Series III swap in progress Engine Controls, PCM goodies, re-programming & odd electronics stuff " I'M ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
i wasnt referring to ryans setup as "mickey mouse", but ive seen many a hackjob on here and suggested using factory style connections because its easier and its safer.
furthermore, i used the 180's so i could run the fuel line up the back firewall, you dont have to use them, but i like to keep it simple rather than have hoses snaked all over the engine bay. have you even looked at your fuel rail? a smooth mandrel 180 isnt nearly as restrictive as the sharp bends in the fuel rail.
[This message has been edited by Hurricane (edited 07-06-2007).]
i wasnt referring to ryans setup as "mickey mouse", but ive seen many a hackjob on here and suggested using factory style connections because its easier and its safer.
furthermore, i used the 180's so i could run the fuel line up the back firewall, you dont have to use them, but i like to keep it simple rather than have hoses snaked all over the engine bay. have you even looked at your fuel rail? a smooth mandrel 180 isnt nearly as restrictive as the sharp bends in the fuel rail.
I did the same thing, its just takes a little trimming and you can mount the fuel rail backwards. Then used the factory plastic lines with the heat and press brass barbs, and hooked the other end to rubber line that then connects to the original Fiero fuel rail connectors. So it hooks right up to the factory fuel lines in the engine bay.
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01:33 PM
Dennis LaGrua Member
Posts: 15540 From: Hillsborough, NJ U.S.A. Registered: May 2000
The returnless rail is used on some pretty powerful engines including the Corvette LS2 and LS7. The regulator is mounted close to the tank much the same as Ryan (Sinister) is doing it.
------------------ 87GT - 3800SC Series III engine, 3.4" Pulley, N* TB, LS1 MAF, Flotech Exhaust Autolite 104's Custom CAI 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. 87GT - 3.4L Turbocharged engine, modified TH125H " I'M ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
The only advantages to converting to returnless is to eliminate the 2nd fuel line connection to the engine, thus cleaning up the swap (also there is one less possible leak point up on the engine). However when doing this, a fuel pressure regulator is still required; you can't simply cap off the return and run the system returnless without using some kind of regulator (either pump mounted or otherwise). When I use the Series 3 rails I cut the regulator portion off the Series 2 rails and mount that down by the fuel filter where it ties into the return line going back to the tank as seen here:
One very important thing to keep in mind. I noticed in these 3800 Series 3 returnless fuel logs there was what appeared to be a vapor seperator plate. The Series 2 and aftermarket rails/logs I have seen have no such plate. I assume GM installed this plate to help make sure only liquid fuel would be able to get to the injectors. Remember that with a returnless system, fuel does not constantly circulate thru the rails, it just sits in there until it is used. You can imagine that when this fuel gets heated it can vaporize in the rails which I suppose could create a problem if there is no vapor seperation plate built-in. Although to tell the truth I haven't seen too many non-returnless rails modified to work in a returnless system exhibit fuel vaporization problems but then again how many are driven in extreme environments as well? When GM designs parts they have to consider all possible operating conditions and make parts accordingly.
-ryan
Where is the best place to get that bypass regulator? I ordered a fuel pressure regulator for a 2001 gp and it has no bypass for the return line.
I am talking about the blue part in the above image. I assume that it is a bypass regulator and not just a T with the regulator somewhere else. Do i need to have a series II rail to cut that part off? The regulator i got only has one outlet, so there would be nowhere to plug in the return line. Does anyone have a part number? thanks
I am talking about the blue part in the above image. I assume that it is a bypass regulator and not just a T with the regulator somewhere else. Do i need to have a series II rail to cut that part off? The regulator i got only has one outlet, so there would be nowhere to plug in the return line. Does anyone have a part number? thanks
The T in the picture is just that a T and nothing more. To use the setup pictures above you just cut the regulater out of a stock S2 rail and then get the parts to make the T. Not forsure what regualtor you have.
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