This is my latest build... for those familiar with the ariel atom and other "no body" exoskeleton cars, you may recognize the general design.
I'm using Fiero front suspension / column / rack / etc... and future versions may allow for "bolt-in" Fiero engine cradle. My hope is to get this to a single donor vehicle build... we'll see.
Anyway, your comments are welcome.

dave
http://www.team321.com
Cocoa Beach, FL

Looks good so far, I have many times thought about making up a dune buggy of sorts using the Fiero as a start but a complete built chassis would make it a lot stronger and lighter. I have about twenty acres of land behind my house that would be a nice spot for such a vehicle. Dan

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Signature compliments of F-I-E-R-O
2003 3800SC series II powered
www.photosled.com/showgallery.php/cat/631
www.photosled.com/showgallery/cat/1583

Dave,
Looks great, maybe a little too much like the Atom. Have you seen the new RCR Superlite roadster? They are selling for just $16k for turnkey-minus (no drivetrain).
http://race-car-replicas.com/rcrproadster.html

It would be awsome if we had a tube frame chassis available. One that would allow for a more updated suspension and a roomy engine bay for differant engine combo's. Also if we did have a frame available that would bolt up the stock body panels and keep the same dimensions that would rock ! . It would give our little cars a new lease on life. More pics

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ARCHIES JUNK IS FASTER THAN SHAUNNA'S JUNK

I can't commit to building a complete tube chassis Fiero, but I have considered building a tubular Rear K member.
I currently build a longitudinal engine cradle for Fiero-based kitcars... the problem is that the wheelbase must be extended 11" for a V8 ( a little less for a v6 ).
My thought is to build an engine cradle that would NOT require a wheel base extension. The mounting would be the same - 2 lower mounts in the front and two mounts in the rear. The strut / lower control arm rear suspension would be retained.

I had considered a double A-arm style rear suspension, but with the transverse engine / trans setup, there is little room for an upper control arm.
Anyway, I thought I'd through this out there to see if there was any interest.

Let me know if you would have interest in a new engine cradle / K member... and what upgrades & differences you'd like compared to the factory units.

dave
http://www.team321.com
( former Held Motorsports owner )

For use with 3800SC swaps the front crossmember on the cradle could be moved forward an inch or so to allow the engine to mount easier. Dan

I'd at least like to see plans for an improved suspension geometry that takes care of all of the '84-'87 issues.

Bob

I guessed a 3800sc would be the logical drivetrain... auto or stick trans?
What "new" cars come with 3800sc / 5speed trans?

As far as the 84/87 suspension - have you tried a bump steer correction lower control arm?

Would you like to see a dual lateral link / radius rod / strut-mounted sway bar like the '88 Fiero?

If so, locating the '88 knuckles would be an issue, but other than that, it's completely possible.

dave
http://www.team321.com

Bump

whats this about a bump correction a-arm??? ive got it terible only turning left?

quote Originally posted by Jake_Dragon: Bump

What he said...

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damn i wish i had the skills/knowledge to build a tube frame from scratch. Is it possible to have these things licensed for road use if its licensed as a kit car? It would kick ass to have one of those with a s/c 3.8 for some summer fun

This is going to be good!

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quote Originally posted by kawana: damn i wish i had the skills/knowledge to build a tube frame from scratch. Is it possible to have these things licensed for road use if its licensed as a kit car? It would kick ass to have one of those with a s/c 3.8 for some summer fun

There's a guy around here (Durham I think) that builds sand rails. I've seen several on the road and a guy at work has/had one with a 66 VW engine it (tuned somewhat!), pretty neat, he also go to register it as a 66 VW too. So it is possible but it probably depends upon where you live as well.

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Dave

www.ltlfrari.com

[This message has been edited by ltlfrari (edited 10-05-2007).]

http://team321.com/tubechas...ubechassisbuild.html

I'll post some photos here as well...
dave
http://www.team321.com
Cocoa Beach FL

quote Originally posted by FIEROFLYER: For use with 3800SC swaps the front crossmember on the cradle could be moved forward an inch or so to allow the engine to mount easier. Dan

You can in turn remove/redesign the oil pressure switch to get that 1inch back.

I don't know much about this whole subject so I might be about to eat my foot, but is the strut towers that you have constructed strong enough to take driving on a regular road? They are only conected to framing on two sides and don't have the vertical support that some other similar sytems seem to have. Are they just heavier duty than most other systems that just seem to be sheet metal?

the strut tower is necessary to locate the upper strut mount... a strut tower would not be necessary with a double-A-arm suspension.

I initially intended to use a double-A-arm rear suspension, but the engine was 3/4" too wide on each side to use my standard control arm / spindle products... quite frustrating - and I didn't want to further extend the track width ( it's already +2" per side wider than a stock Fiero ) or redesign the control arms / spindle.

The second reason for using a strut - I wanted future versions of this frame to easily accommodate a fiero drivetrain. This will lessen the overall build cost. Additionally, if a Fiero drivetrain can be used, other FWD, strut-based drivetrains can be used. There is 4" of additional space measured from the strut tower to the firewall.

This build started as a promotional vehicle for my suspension products - no body to obstruct the view of the suspension, but the demand for me to make / sell the frames has driven me to design a solution that works with a variety of drivetrains.

keep those questions coming - either on this forum or via email
dave@team321.com
Cocoa Beach FL

ttt

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S.W.A.T.

I missed your earlier question about the strength of the strut tower...
You are correct - as it is, the strut tower is definitely not strong enough... The sheet metal will be reinforced and the entire strut tower box will be framed with 1" box tubing... then the entire structure will be triangulated with 1 1/2" and 1" square tubing.

good question... more photos to follow in the coming weeks.
dave

what size tubing do you use for the lower rails in the bay? (the tubes the control arms attach to)

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S.W.A.T.

I understand why you are using the strut instead of the double a-arm, but how large is the advantage of using a double a-arm vs a mcpherson strut? And why?

I know you previously stated that this project is really about suspension components rather than the whole frame, but i believe if someone where inclined to make a light-weight (aluminum?) panel boltable frame available for our famero's, there would be a lineup at the door. Imagine a 3800sc or lighter still EcoSC in a car 40% lighter .... my oh my

The lower frame rails are 1 1/2" diameter DOM tubing ( round )

dave

I believe it is possible to mig aluminum if you use a spool gun. IDK I could be wrong, but I would swear I have heard of someone doing it.

quote Originally posted by fieroluv: I believe it is possible to mig aluminum if you use a spool gun. IDK I could be wrong, but I would swear I have heard of someone doing it.

Yup, you can definatly do it but it's not nearly as nice or strong as TIG welding. You have to buy the spoolgun attachment, an aluminum spool and run pure argon as your shielding gas. Steel is just by far easier to work with and much cheaper to weld.

[This message has been edited by Zac88GT (edited 10-30-2007).]

MiG welding aluminum is very doable. I built my intake using the cast lower piece and 1/4" plate. It must be very clean and pre-heated for best results. Pure Argon for shielding gas. The spool would be nice but I'm thinking hard to get into tight places. I found the secret to jam free welding was using a .035 tip with .030 wire. Using a .030 tip caused a jam after welding for 5 seconds and untold amounts of cursing.

Nice build. Keep the pictures coming.

quote Originally posted by dave@heldmotorsports.com: Let me know if you would have interest in a new engine cradle / K member... and what upgrades & differences you'd like compared to the factory units. dave http://www.team321.com ( former Held Motorsports owner )

I would be interested in a copy of the 88 cradle and suspension for bolt in to the 84-87. The cradle maybe designed with 3800 swap in mind.
Then it would also be cool to have an 88 front suspension copy for bolt in conversion. I dont know if the slalom suspension acheives that or not. A guy could then buy the spindles bearings and brakes maybe from the Fiero Store or something. Or, maybe custom spindles for using Grand Am Bearings and Brakes would be great too.

88 Cradle - from what I understand, they are available, but mods are necessary to mount the 3800 drivetrain.

Radius Rods and Lateral links with poly bushings - available from Held Motorsports

adapters to mount an 88 Fiero cradle in an earlier car are available from Held Motorsports

88 Fiero rear bearings / brakes - factory units are still available... as are upgrades.

coilover struts - available from a number of sources including Held Motorsports.

Rear knukles / spindles / hub carriers - call them what you will.. I see these pieces as the only ones that are hard to find... correct me if I'm wrong.

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First - with all that in mind, what is a fair price for a steel, tubular engine cradle using 88 Fiero geometry and 3800 engine mounts?

Second - without 88 knuckles, what is the rest of the suspension solution? How much would you be willing to pay for fabricated knuckles similar to the '88 Fiero suspension ?

dave

bump

I have added the floor and sides... along with rear suspension framework... it's coming along... slowly, but it's coming along.

dave
http://www.team321.com
Cocoa Beach FL

Wish I had the time and skill to do something like this. It looks awesome. I'll definitely keep an eye on this thread.

quote Originally posted by dave@heldmotorsports.com: 88 Cradle - from what I understand, they are available, but mods are necessary to mount the 3800 drivetrain. Radius Rods and Lateral links with poly bushings - available from Held Motorsports adapters to mount an 88 Fiero cradle in an earlier car are available from Held Motorsports 88 Fiero rear bearings / brakes - factory units are still available... as are upgrades. coilover struts - available from a number of sources including Held Motorsports. Rear knukles / spindles / hub carriers - call them what you will.. I see these pieces as the only ones that are hard to find... correct me if I'm wrong. ============================================================== First - with all that in mind, what is a fair price for a steel, tubular engine cradle using 88 Fiero geometry and 3800 engine mounts? Second - without 88 knuckles, what is the rest of the suspension solution? How much would you be willing to pay for fabricated knuckles similar to the '88 Fiero suspension ? dave

Around here fieros are rare and I am far from any major city so I would need to go long distance to get junk 88 parts. I could just buy an 88 fiero on ebay I suppose but I do have a rust free fiero. A conversion to 88 geometry and brakes is the desire of many pre-88 owners. Like you say, a bunch of rear parts are already available. A custom 88 style rear cradle would complete that package. If it had the ability to mount a 3800SC without a torque strut, and if it looked good, you might sell more than a few of them. How much would I pay for such a cradle? Maybe somewhere in the $500 range?

I thought for 88's the bearings were becoming hard to find? So if that were the case using cheap and plentiful grand am parts might be a good way to go? Spindles if they were lighter than stock 88 and used stronger bearings than the pre-88 might sell for something in the $200 range? each.

The front 88 Fiero bearings are hard to find / expensive... the rears are the same as the 84/87 variety.

thank you for putting a $ figure along with your suggestion for an upgrade 88 cradle. The other pieces to complete the solution are 88 fiero rear knuckles... as the suspension links are available

Where can I find images showing the 3800 engine / transaxle mounts? or a cradle with the mounts installed - but no engine / trans to obstruct the view?

Don't forget that Held Motorsports makes a tubular control arm, coilover front suspension for 84/87 cars.

dave
http://www.team321.com