I’m so jealous…. I thought we had something real, a commitment! Now I see you whoring around with this low mileage unit, a tight interior and augmented brakes from the Buckeye state. While I’m out here in San Diego saving the world from Al qaeda, and my LS4 seats collecting dust in a pole barn in Fort Wayne!!!

After you get done shaking up the winter with that little whitey, put it to the curb and give me a call. LOL

[This message has been edited by Trolleyman (edited 11-15-2007).]

quote Originally posted by Trolleyman: I’m so jealous…. I thought we had something real, a commitment! Now I see you whoring around with this low mileage unit, a tight interior and augmented brakes from the Buckeye state. While I’m out here in San Diego saving the world from Al qaeda, and my LS4 seats collecting dust in a pole bran in Fort Wayne!!! After you get done shaking up the winter with that little whitey, put it to the curb and give me a call. LOL

Will do. In the meantime, keep your head down and your powder dry!

-ryan

I’ve not read any talk about using the MAF on the LS4? Are you planning to use one or go with speed density?

Relocation of the alternator looks very clean and helps with the oil fill cap too.

Will the battery be relocated to the front of the car?

[This message has been edited by Trolleyman (edited 11-15-2007).]

Battery is getting relocated to the front using one of norm's kits. I modified the tray by adding provisions for "tying down" the battery in case no spare tire is going to be present (stock spare won't work with the 12" brake upgrade that is going on this car).




Got started on the exhaust system and built it as far as to the cats. Will finish it up once the engine goes back in for the last time.




Below is a picture of the LS4 engine and transmission wiring harness with most of the loom removed. I took a few measurements before I removed the engine/trans from the car this last time so I can get as much rewiring done as possible with the engine out. Saves me from having to lean over into the engine compartment as much.




For ECM and TCM mounting I recycled some of the fiberglass front spare tire well I had to cut out for the battery box. The cases of the ECM and TCM should never be mounted to a metal surface that is grounded to the chassis. The reason why is because if the ground strap ever became severed from the engine to the chassis, or from the engine to the battery (but still connected from battery to chassis); high current could go thru the computers and damage them. GM keeps the cases to their computers isolated from chassis ground for this reason.




Also received the powdercoated suspension pieces from blkcofy and they look great. Got the new ball joints pressed into the front lower control arms tonight. I also got some fittings made for the modified front engine/water pump cover. Will get those welded on next week so I can get that put back on the engine and finalize my serp belt routing. Not pictured is the wiring I have already completed for positive and ground supply from the battery to chassis, engine, and alternator. The battery relocation kit comes with 4ga cable to run from the pos battery term to the starter; but for this swap I elected to upgrade this to 2ga because of the V8. I did use the 4ga cable to connect the starter to the Fiero's original power distribution block. I also pulled the clutch line, shifter, and shift/throttle cables from the car. Installed the auto trans cooler lines and I am working on mounting the fly-by-wire gas pedal assembly.

Something else noteworthy that I haven't spoken of yet is a tale about the ECM that came with this engine. This tale actually encompasses a couple of weeks that it took me to get where I am now. The ECM that came with this engine did come out of the same car the engine came out of. But what wasn't known at the time was that the ECM had been custom programmed by a company that I prefer not to name here. I didn't discover this until I got my bench harness built a couple of weeks ago and tried to read its programming using my HP Tuners tuning software. In short, the HP Tuners software wouldn't read the ECM at all and gave me an error indicating the security codes in the ECM had been changed (locked). HP Tuners customer support informed me that this ECM was probably not going to be usable unless I could hunt down the person/company that reprogrammed it and get them to unlock it. Well while I was waiting on getting in contact with the reprogrammer, I took the ECM to the dealer to see if they could force a reflash using SPS pass-thru programming. Well that ended up not working because of the software lock in the ECM.

After about a week I was put in touch with the original programmer and he informed me that the software he used to reprogram this particular ECM was in BETA TEST back when it was done. He also said he no longer had the beta software and basically the ECM I had was worthless (IE he couldn't even reprogram it if he wanted to). So, in short, I had to order a replacement ECM which I did get ahold of one for a very fair price. So hopefully in the next few days I will get the opportunity to get into the dealer and get the correct stock programming and VIN put onto this replacement ECM so I can start working on the custom program that will be used in this swap.

At this point there are a lot of different things I am working on at the same time. So updates and pics may be slow in coming.

-ryan

I'm really jealous right now,.....then i realize I'm getting jealous of myself!

quote Originally posted by Trolleyman: I’ve not read any talk about using the MAF on the LS4? Are you planning to use one or go with speed density? Relocation of the alternator looks very clean and helps with the oil fill cap too. Will the battery be relocated to the front of the car?

The LS4 came with a MAF sensor and yes it will be used in this swap.

How do you plan to deal with the unwanted ecm/tcm issues like pk3, traction control, magnasteer, dod, and all the many ecm inputs that will cause codes?

quote Originally posted by RONT4.9: How do you plan to deal with the unwanted ecm/tcm issues like pk3, traction control, magnasteer, dod, and all the many ecm inputs that will cause codes?

Add everything, of course.

Its looking really good. I think a first start-up video is deffinately in order here.

Nice buildup guys - looking forward to seeing how the paddle shifter works out, I'll stay tuned...

Ryan

Darth.
PM at ya, please read ASAP as it may be an issue.
Noting too drastic, so as not to scare you too much.

quote Originally posted by RONT4.9: How do you plan to deal with the unwanted ecm/tcm issues like pk3, traction control, magnasteer, dod, and all the many ecm inputs that will cause codes?

The Passkey/Security functions can be switched off in the ECM by HP Tuners. The functions and trouble codes for the traction control and magnasteer will also be switched off. The DoD will be left functioning.

Darth, Thanks for the info. I'm doing the same swap but i think i'm going to delete the DOD and of course traction control. My 88 fiero has the a/c delete, so i will be mounting the alternater whare the a/c comp goes. Also plan on doing the TAP shift on the console using buttons or spring loaded switches.

quote Originally posted by RONT4.9: Darth, Thanks for the info. I'm doing the same swap but i think i'm going to delete the DOD and of course traction control. My 88 fiero has the a/c delete, so i will be mounting the alternater whare the a/c comp goes. Also plan on doing the TAP shift on the console using buttons or spring loaded switches.

Instead of buttons on the console, you might want to consider the steering wheel paddle shift kit from Twisted Machines...
http://www.twistmachine.com/products/shrifter.html


If the LS4 your using came from a car with TAP Shift, then the only part of the kit you need are he paddles and steering hub adapter.

quote Originally posted by Joseph Upson: Where did you get your information on the coolant flow? It looks like the coolant would flow in the opposite direction since the thermostat housing appears to be located centrally at the back of the pump. I was confused for a moment with the 3900 coolant flow since the thermostat is located in the same area as shown in your picture however, the filler neck and crossover mounted at the end of the heads up high suggested that despite the thermostat location it is the inlet point for coolant.

Turns out you were correct in your initial assessment. The coolant inlet to the engine is in-fact the t-stat housing. I realized this once I removed the water pump and found the t-stat passage leading right to the center of the water pump. I did some more digging in the service manual and indeed it does state this. Appearantly the section on "radiator hose replacement; outlet LS4" refers to the radiator's outlet; not the outlet of the engine. I also found out that the coolant flows from the water pump to the block FIRST then to the cylinder heads; so this is not a "reverse flow" cooling system like the LT1 uses (on the LT1 the heads get the coolant first and then the block).

Later I will get the flow picture I made up of the coolant connections corrected to reflect the correct flow path of the coolant. Sorry for the mistake but that's what you get when you don't read the whole service manual cover to cover. Just glad I caught this before I spent too much time on hooking up the coolant hoses.

-ryan

quote Originally posted by Darth Fiero: I also found out that the coolant flows from the water pump to the block FIRST then to the cylinder heads; so this is not a "reverse flow" cooling system like the LT1 uses (on the LT1 the heads get the coolant first and then the block). Later I will get the flow picture I made up of the coolant connections corrected to reflect the correct flow path of the coolant. Sorry for the mistake but that's what you get when you don't read the whole service manual cover to cover. Just glad I caught this before I spent too much time on hooking up the coolant hoses. -ryan

Reverse flow cooling was just a bandaid to stretch the utility of an obsolete architecture (SBC) another couple of years. It's not actually a good way to run things, since it creates problems bleeding the cooling system.
Also don't forget that modern GM engines employ a recirculating thermostat rather than a simple valve like SBC's.

Probably the most time consuming single job of any swap involving an EFI engine and electronic auto transmission is the wiring. Sure I could have taken a short cut here and not modified the original LS4 wiring much but that's not how I do things. Pretty much every wire in the harness had to have its length changed so it could be routed the way I wanted. OEM had the wires going over the top of the intake for almost every device/sensor and I just don't like it done that way. I like to keep as much off the intake as possible and you can see the difference in the pictures below...

In progress...





Here's what it looked like stock...



Here's what it looks like now...







Still have quite a bit to do including integrate the engine harness into the vehicle but it's getting there.

quote Originally posted by Darth Fiero: Finished the fuel pump install (Walbro 255lph) and hooked up the fuel pressure regulator...

i need this for my 3500 swap....can you provide info? or better yet ill email ya

quote Originally posted by blkcofy: I'm really jealous right now,.....then i realize I'm getting jealous of myself!

ugh hem fellow cincy boy, do I get a ride when its done? My 7730 2.8L V6 should be done by spring and we can race .

ttt

blkcofy, you have a PM

Ryan, did you get my pm?

Joe

quote Originally posted by Mr.PBody: ugh hem fellow cincy boy, do I get a ride when its done? My 7730 2.8L V6 should be done by spring and we can race .

First of all...consider it a locked date on the calendar. The first place we should head to is Mid-Ohio to put it on the track.

Second of all...how in the heck did you get a smile face to do the 'superman' dance?? Now THAT's impressive!!

On the brake topic... *edit* you already did that (that's what I get for not taking the time to read the entire thread) so my post was kinda useless

[This message has been edited by PerKr (edited 12-03-2007).]

Nice work on the wiring harness, is heat going be a problem?

Will you be using the coil blower (fan) in the trunk?

blkcofy, you have another PM

This swap is raising the price of the LS4 engine on ebay, up to 3800 coinage now.

EDIT: Email issue corrected.

[This message has been edited by Darth Fiero (edited 01-08-2008).]

[This message has been edited by Darth Fiero (edited 12-05-2007).]

countum, 6 idler pullies!

Damn, I am so jealous.

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: countum, 6 idler pullies!

I count 5.

5 idlers, alternator, tentioner, waterpump, crank, and AC.

Theres also a tensioner I think he counted that too. Blkcofy PM me and I'll give you my email if you're serious about meeting up or something next year (sounds so wierd to say that).

Blkcofy, you have a PM. OOPS, "heard" was missing from message.

[This message has been edited by dizmon_85GT (edited 12-09-2007).]

SUSPENSION AND BRAKE UPDATE

Ryan is the best! In between all of the MAJOR wiring work that he's doing to keep many of the original functionality of the DoD and DIC from the 2005 GXP Grand Prix to work with the Fiero, he's also been able to partner with me to do a rebuild of most of my suspension and brakes.

Here's how things looked before the work began...


As you can read in earlier posts, I had Ryan send me the control arms and spindles, which I media blasted, checked for any structural issues, and then powder coated them. I have the WCF performance springs and Koni shocks installed. Also new tire rods from The Fiero Store. I originally tried to go cheap and bought some from ebay, but they were crap...so ended up paying the extra bucks and got them at TFS. I haven't replaced the front sway bar yet, but will do so myself when I get the car back. I do have the rear sway bar from TFS, as well as all the poly bushings.




You can also see the 12" Corvette rotors from Rockcrawl's Brake Kit installed. Ryan is currently working on getting the 88' Fiero calipers installed such that it works with Rockcrawl's Kit. I originally hoped I could get my OEM wheels to fit these rotors, but no such luck. It would take alot of grinding away at the rims and that would just not make alot of sense. I wanted to keep the OEMs as Winter Tires or even drag strip rims...but no such luck. I will likely put these up for sale if there is any interest. You can see them in one of the pictures above.

Right now, I'm looking for wheels/tires that will make the most of my current setup. I have coil overs in the rear, so I'm going to go as wide as my pocket book will allow!

My preference is a staggered height setup, similar to the Corvette's by going 17 x 8.0 w/ @ 42mm offset and 225/40 tires in the front and 18 x 8.0 w/ 35mm offset and 265/35 tires in the rear. Its the rear that's been the hardest to find in affordable performance tires.

More to come....

Sorry for the lack of updates guys. There is a lot of new ground being broken in many areas of this swap which is requiring a lot of extra on-the-fly R&D to be done so the swap can progress. But it's getting there. Case in point: the wiring is quite litterally about 5x more involved with this swap compared to the typical 3800 swap after you factor in the BCM for this LS4 and what it wants to see and have control over in the car. And that's factor in what has been taking so long. I have to figure out what devices are essential (such as the brake pedal position sensor) and what devices and controls are not (headlight controls, etc). The ultimate goal with keeping the BCM is to implement the factory keyless entry and remote start that came on the Grand Prix it came out of and make it all work in the Fiero. The BCM is also needed because it tells the DIC when to turn on (there is no key-on voltage that goes to the DIC and other devices in these newer GM cars; the signal to turn them on comes across the class 2 data communications circuit).

As you can see in the above pictures posted by blkcofy, the front suspension is done and I have began working on the rear. The engine/trans/cradle went back into the car for the last time on Friday. I've already started hooking up the cooling system and wiring so it won't be long before this thing is ready to fire. One improtant thing I have yet to do is get back to the dealer to get the replacement ECM reflashed with the correct factory programming. I have to do this thru a third party and our schedules haven't sync'd up in the last 4 weeks but I'm still hopeful I can get this very important thing done before Christmas.

-ryan

Is taking out the BCM communication possible with a programming job? I would think some people could get away with just having to do slightly limited things wiring wise in the future.

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: Is taking out the BCM communication possible with a programming job? I would think some people could get away with just having to do slightly limited things wiring wise in the future.

I don't know that at this time. The reason why is because the signal to crank/start the engine comes from the ignition switch and goes directly to the BCM, then the BCM commands the ECM to engage the starter relay via the Class 2 serial data line. So what I am going to attempt to do when I get ready to fire this thing up is to unplug the BCM and just engage the starter solenoid directly and see if the ECM will allow the engine to run even though it wasn't commanded to start the engine. HP Tuners says their software can disable the VATS in the ECM programming so that shouldn't be an issue.

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: Is taking out the BCM communication possible with a programming job? I would think some people could get away with just having to do slightly limited things wiring wise in the future.

The communications of the 2004 and newer with the PassKey 3 PLUS.... is a whole new world. Back in 2004 when I put the 3800SC with the TAP shift transmission to the 88 GT I did, I wanted to only use the PCM because HPTuners assured me that they can hack the PK3+ out. However in 4 attempts they could not. All they were doing is finding the DTC flag in the code and setting it to false. However, the OS needed more than that to turn it off. Today I have the memory location of the VTD in the 2004 PCM with PK3+. I cannot read the assembly however to know what it needed to turn off the VTD so the PCM is happy.

Loyde
http://www.fastfieros.com/projects

[This message has been edited by FastFieros (edited 12-17-2007).]

Ryan, PM sent. Great thread BTW, really appreciate those labelled photos.