Hi all,
I might be a little premature for this, but I have officially started the physical part of the VR6 engine swap. The last three months were the research portion. What I have found is the pre 1999 manual transmissions have high failure rate. The 24v VR6 from 2003-newer are four times the price to make power with. So, i have settled on a AFP engine from a 2000 VW Jetta with a five speed transmission. These engines aren't cheap. Most wrecking yards want over $2000. for just the engine. I picked up a smashed up Jetta for a little over $2500.00 on ebay....not including $200.00 in gas and tolls to transport it back home.
I do have some concerns that I will address as the swap goes on. I had to wait until we were finished with a 1967 Mercedes 250SL that had been at my shop since March and it finally was done a few days ago. Now I have the extra room needed to do this project. If this project goes well, a TDI swap will be next.
For those of you that don't know what a VR6 is, here is a generic picture of one with the head off.

and here are the teaser pics of the donor car.....



More to come this week.
Dave

------------------

1987 GT (my toy-see above), 1987 GT (wife's toy), 1986 SE soon to be VR6, certified master technician/shop owner
www.njautobahn.com

[This message has been edited by bmwguru (edited 12-16-2007).]

ALRIGHT!!!

Eh, its a 2.8l and makes 174hp - are planning to mod it or?

Right on!!!!

Well in other threads hes saying 9 seconds in the 1/4... So yeah, it'll be modded, alot... I'll be watching this one dave, thanks for posting the head-off pic, I always wondered what they looked like, its listed as a V6, but the header looks like like an I-6 as does the intake, but the spark plugs are offset. What it is that, like a 15* V?

quote Originally posted by Mr.PBody: Well in other threads hes saying 9 seconds in the 1/4... So yeah, it'll be modded, alot... I'll be watching this one dave, thanks for posting the head-off pic, I always wondered what they looked like, its listed as a V6, but the header looks like like an I-6 as does the intake, but the spark plugs are offset. What it is that, like a 15* V?

The head intake runner is longer on three cylinders, so in the intake manifold, the runners are two different lengths to compensate for that. Check out wikipedia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vr6
Also, the engine is initially going in stock to work out the bugs and ensure that I can get it running like a factory car. The only mods are: port and polish and upgraded software. This was actually done on the donor car prior to my purchase. I will tear down and inspect to be sure it was done and done right, but the shop that did it is well known in the New England area for VW mods.
I figure the hardest parts are going to be the fly by wire throttle, axle adaptation (I'm using the VW trans), and shifter.
After this is done, I am starting the turbo VR6 project to go into this car. I want to make sure that it wil work properly in the stock form before I add 300hp.
Dave

looks like you will have plenty of parts to sell, infact arent the rims from those the same bolt pattern as the fiero?

id love to have a spare set of 16" rims for either my fiero or my subaru.

matthew

Cool! This will be a fun swap to watch. You've also got me intrigued by the TDI swap. A TDI Fiero could be a seriously fun little commuter with insane mileage.

yeah id like a tdi fiero that will do great in raleigh traffic

quote Originally posted by m0sh_man: looks like you will have plenty of parts to sell, infact arent the rims from those the same bolt pattern as the fiero? id love to have a spare set of 16" rims for either my fiero or my subaru. matthew

Yeah, Hopefully, I'll make my money back and then some on the extra parts.
I'm not 100% sure, but I think the Jetta is a 5x112. The Beetle and Audi TT are 5x100. I was thinking of trying to adapt Audi TT brakes on my Fiero, but that is later.
Dave

[This message has been edited by bmwguru (edited 12-16-2007).]

quote Originally posted by bmwguru: turbo VR6

Nice, and whats the expectations?

Glad to see you got the car and are beginning your swap. I'm looking forward to this.

Red mirrors on a blue car. LOL.

Ryan

Now that's an interesting swap. looking foward to seeing it done.
I just keep looking at the block tho, it has to be longer than a 2.8 v6 tho, and even after reading the link, still looks that way. Narrower, most definately, but longer. I would guess with the tranny tho, overall it is not as wide, as most of the vw's tend to be a bit narrower.
I've looked at quite a few fwd setups and eyeballed them into a fiero, and if I didn';t need to drive the car everyday, I saw a few that looked like fun.... (wife keeps wondering why I keep looking at the fwd highlander 3.3vvt in her car and muttering that might fit...).

You;ve got the background for that type of drivetrain tho, so it makes the most sense to go with what you know. From your other posts, I expect this to be a sweet one of a kind ride when you're done, and hopefully you can make it a good viable swap for others to try, especially those that don't have a shop to work out of. Try to keep that in the back of your mind when doing the swap, but by no means compromise the install if that is not possible.

quote Originally posted by AutoTech: Nice, and whats the expectations?

I'd rather not post the expectations at this time. As soon as I mention the number I am shooting for, this thread will be in the trash can. Right now, the engine is going in naturally aspirated. If all goes well, I'll bring it to Carlisle in May. After that, the turbo will be added on, but I'll probably build a second VR6 engine that can handle higher than stock horsepower to use the turbo. That way, I can enjoy driving this one and just do a quick engine swap.
As for the engine being long. It is no longer than an average four cylinder. When I did the initial measurements, the VR6 will fit in with plenty of room to spare.
Dave

quote Originally posted by bmwguru: Hi all, I might be a little premature for this, but I have officially started the physical part of the VR6 engine swap.

Awww geeze. not another one of _those_ things. couldn't you do something a little different than everyone else?

I'm looking forward to watching something unique for a change. good work!

Russ544

------------------
It's just like building a canoe out of a log. first you cut down a tree........ then you cut off everything that doesn't look like a canoe.

I have a friend with a 01 jetta that will find this thread very interesting. Wheels are the same as fiero. We will both be watching this thread very closely. Nice to see someone do something unique for a change. Its been a while since that has happened with an engine swap. Short of the LS4 thats being done by Darth right now.

[This message has been edited by Fieroseverywhere (edited 12-17-2007).]

quote Originally posted by Fieroseverywhere: I have a friend with a 01 jetta that will find this thread very interesting. Wheels are the same as fiero. We will both be watching this thread very closely. Nice to see someone do something unique for a change. Its been a while since that has happened with an engine swap. Short of the LS4 thats being done by Darth right now.

Tell your friend that I'l be parting out the rest of the Jetta, so if he needs any parts, I'll have them. The rest of the body and interior are mint. I'll be posting the parts on vwvortex, thesamba, and ebay.
Dave

[This message has been edited by bmwguru (edited 12-17-2007).]

quote Originally posted by bmwguru: Tell your friend that I'l be parting out the rest of the Jetta, so if he needs any parts, I'll have them. The rest of the body and interior are mint. I'll be posting the parts on vwvortex, thesamba, and ebay. Dave

He just stopped by but his car is in pretty good shape so there isn't much he can think of at the moment. He has some damage to the passenger fender and drivers door but nothing worth replacing the body panels over. He's may be interested in headliner if the price is right. He said he wants the motor but I told him its spoken for. If anything else comes up he will let me know so I can pass it on to you.

I know someone else that needs a drivers side mirror. She'll have to paint it but at least its in one piece unike the one on her car now.

I on the other hand want the marker lights and at least a little bit of the wiring to them. How much shipped to 97015? We can continue this conversation through PM or e-mail so as to not fill this thread with parts buying. Later

[This message has been edited by Fieroseverywhere (edited 12-17-2007).]

I hope this swap goes well, because I really want to see the TDI swap.

I was looking at some force fed VR6's, and they seem to be making some very good numbers.

Should be a very potent swap

quote Originally posted by AutoTech: I was looking at some force fed VR6's, and they seem to be making some very good numbers. Should be a very potent swap

I'm not too crazy about the supercharged VR6 engines. I'd rather build a nice turbo/alcohol injected/anti-lag engine running upwards of 30lbs of boost.
Anyway, I haven't done much yet except set the Jetta on the spare lift and take inventory of what is left of the car. The Fiero engine should be out early January. We had a sudden rush of people wanting to spend money of their cars for the holiday. Lucky me.
Dave

quote Originally posted by bmwguru: 30lbs of boost.

Whats gotta be done to support that?

quote Originally posted by AutoTech: Whats gotta be done to support that?

hate to give away our secrets, but there is one BMW running 30lbs on stock internals turning very low 10's.

Thicker head gasket maybe...

I LOVE the VR-6 engines, smooth as silk powerband, plenty down low, plenty up top, and are fairly easy to get some power out of with basic mods. The 12v have problems making good power N/A though...

Will be keeping an eye on this, and should anything happen to my dads GTI I might know of a place that engine can go

EDIT: Oh yeah, and about the tranny thing, if you put a limited slip in the earlier year ones, or even just do the ARP diff set they can hold up to alot too. It's a stupid rivit design or something like that in the diff that makes them prone to failure.

[This message has been edited by fieromadman (edited 12-20-2007).]

Way out in left field on this one, but have you considered using the craddle and suspension? No idea how close they are track wise, nor how the engine sits in relation to the strut towers. Probably creates more problems than it solves, but would take care of the axle challenge and throw in a little modern suspension geometry.

You know I'll be watching this one, too. Post lots of pics of your honey doing some work in the GWoF thread!

Best of luck to you on the swap. It will have a sound like no other Fiero when it is done. Talking about confusing the Fiero illiterate! I wish I were closer to watch in person.

The Jetta doesn't have much of a cradle. The engine mounts to the upper frame rails and it has a little baby half cradle that holds the lower arms. I was thinking of seeing how the VW hubs would work with the Fiero (both 5x100). The hard part is trying to find a compatible fuel pump.
The shop is closed this next week, so I may get a day to go there and play around without having to answer the phone or talk to customers (no offense to them).
.
.
.
Sax, I almost had a great pic of Joey helping me put a headliner in a E320. She was crunched up in the rear shelf getting the wiring situated. Her head was pressed up against the back window. It would have made a great pic.
She will definitely be helping on the VR6....after all, it's her car.
Dave

It will be hers?! Man, you must really dig this chick.

be interesting to see it as an actual real life swap. way back when i first joined here there was someone who claimed to have done this. i think the thread ended up being several pages long, but the more pointed the questions got the less he posted till he finally disappeared.

good luck, hope you can add to the swap possibilities.

interesting !
those engines can make a whole lot of power
also... hehe
you are paving the way for other VW/audi swaps...
turbo 4?
twin turbo 6
oh yeah and I think they have a v8 too... (lol @ think) jk hehe I love the audi v8

------------------



87 Fiero GT 5sp with Vortec L35 4300 Turbocharged V6
Bully Stage 2 clutch
Syclone intake manifold and engine management with Moates adapter and chip burner
Air/water intercooler and Devil's Own progressive water/alky injection
50lb injectors, 3 bar map sensor, Walboro fuel pump and Jabasco Intercooler pump
LM1 wideband on custom manifolds and 3" stainless exhaust system
T31/T04B S4 turbo with a Super T61 in the box
S10 caliper conversion.
Murphy's Constant Matter will be damaged in direct proportion to its value
Murphy's Law of Thermodynamics Things get worse under pressure.
Arthur C. Clarke "Any significantly advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic"

quote Originally posted by vortecfiero: interesting ! those engines can make a whole lot of power also... hehe you are paving the way for other VW/audi swaps... turbo 4? twin turbo 6 oh yeah and I think they have a v8 too... (lol @ think) jk hehe I love the audi v8

The swap seemed natural for the Fiero. It is a transverse V-straight 6 that can handle added power. I work on German cars for a living, so I know these engines in and out. The 1.8t can be made to go faster, but the motor isn't very reliable. The Audi V8 is similar to the Porsche 928 engine. The Audi V6's are very wide, so it would be a tricky swap. I was thinking of the VW W8, but the motor is very expensive.
As for making it reality, well, concider it to already be a reality. This swap is already in progress and I can't see a single part of the swap that is going to give me major problems. The fly by wire throttle, custom axles, software reprogram....it's all planned for. This is why I purchased a complete car, rather than individual components. I have the VIN to order any replacement parts and I have all the wiring and modules needed.
Dave

I have driven VR6 powered VW's from 12-24v and turbo (limited to 21 psi) and they are so fast and worth it is so many areas. My fiero started to go out on me though it was just playing dead while I was looking for a VW with either 1.8t or 24v VR6 and I was disappointed when the Fiero ran fine with no problems. Everytime it gives me an excuse to get another car or dump all of my money into the monza it runs fine with no problems and stays that way till if feels like crapping out again.

quote Originally posted by vortecfiero: interesting ! those engines can make a whole lot of power also... hehe you are paving the way for other VW/audi swaps... turbo 4? twin turbo 6 oh yeah and I think they have a v8 too... (lol @ think) jk hehe I love the audi v8

Yea, I was waiting myself for some variety and cross breeding with engine swaps. Guess someone has to take the first (well not really first..) step. Glad it's BMWGuru.

You have no idea even. that Audi V8 engine is just gorgeous and indestructible (stock). There are Audi V8's and Audi A8's driving around that have 400,000 miles on the original engine. Not to mention the sound is just sweet. Very smooth and sophisticated.

I am first in line at bmwguru's place for a VR6 swap.

I feel like a kid in a candy store. I've been looking around and I knew there were a lot of aftermarket mods for the VW's, but I've found stuff that I didnt expect. Just about every part of the car has an aftermarket mod for it. Custom gearsets, LSD or race spools, many turbo kits....not to mention the normal engine mods such as cams, intakes, headers, etc.
Anyway, I'm planning on pulling the drivetrain out of the VW on Friday. The first step will be to replace the timing chains and guides. Also, the rear main seal will be done at this time. The stock flywheel weighs 20lbs. I will be replacing that with a 10lb billet steel flywheel. I could go with the 7.5lb aluminum, but I figure with the eventual turbo install, a 10lb will work better. If it is in the budget, I'll be doing the LSD or race spool at that time. If not, I figure it will be a 6 hour job to R&R the trans and tear it apart to replace the differential later.
Like I mentioned before, the engine is going in naturally aspirated to see how it reacts to its new home. I want to see how it feels compared to a GTI VR6. Once I am happy with the way it runs, no overheating, nothing weird with the driveability, then it goes to the dyno for a baseline HP reading and track. Then onto the turbo mods and back to the dyno and track.
If I feel that the swap is doable for a DIY'er, I might make a kit. Otherwise, I'll concider doing a swap or two at my shop.
Dave

if you need anything i know vws up and down and sideways. i too have been eyeballing this one for its many advantages. as for taking the motor out of an mk4 you may have extra mounting problems due to the crappy dogbone style mount with the two side mounts. the earlier mk3 vr6s had real motor mounts that were on the front and back of the motor but ive never actually looked to see if the blocks are the same. are you planning on using the vw engine management? i think it would be kinda funny to drop a fiero off into a dealer and have them code the control modules for you.

as for 12v not making power, ive seen mk3 12vs with cams and intake/cat back running mid 14s which isnt something our v6 can do. the 24v is a sweet one but i didnt think it would be swappable due to the engine mount configuration.

as for size id have to say the vr6 is prolly the same size length wise, mabye at the most an inch longer but with the head and manifolds off it really is a tiny engine. rock solid too i dont think they have mechanical problems i sure havent seen any.

quote Originally posted by megafreakindeth: as for taking the motor out of an mk4 you may have extra mounting problems due to the crappy dogbone style mount with the two side mounts. [QUOTE] [QUOTE]Originally posted by megafreakindeth: are you planning on using the vw engine management? i think it would be kinda funny to drop a fiero off into a dealer and have them code the control modules for you. [QUOTE] [QUOTE]Originally posted by megafreakindeth: as for 12v not making power, ive seen mk3 12vs with cams and intake/cat back running mid 14s which isnt something our v6 can do. the 24v is a sweet one but i didnt think it would be swappable due to the engine mount configuration. as for size id have to say the vr6 is prolly the same size length wise, mabye at the most an inch longer but with the head and manifolds off it really is a tiny engine. rock solid too i dont think they have mechanical problems i sure havent seen any.

I chose the mk4 because of this mounting arrangement.

I do my own coding and programming. I own a German only repair shop and have all the factory laptops. The fun part would be to show up for Waterfest with a VR6 Fiero. They'd kick me out.

The 12v can make more power than the 24v for 1/4 of the price. The 24v technology is still expensive, but in a few years, it will be making tons of more power than the 12v for a more reasonable price. The 24v mounts the same as the AFP 12v . The VR6 had issues with the timing chains. They should be replaced every 100,000 miles. That is why I am doing all the needed maintenance prior to install.
As the swap goes on, I welcome anyone to stop by my shop and take a sneak peak at it.
Dave

[This message has been edited by bmwguru (edited 12-26-2007).]