I took some time off the VR6 to get the V8 ready for Carlisle. I'll be back on the VR6 in full swing next week and this thread will come alive again.
Dave

Cool!

I had a '97 GTI VR6 and loved it! You're going to love this swap once you're done!

Tagged so I can watch along, too.

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~Michael

Project IMSA Formula Coming Soon!
'85 GT 4sp white - SOLD | | '85 2M6 Auto red - SOLD | | '84 2M4 bare chassis - SOLD
Crap, I'm out of Fieros! Time to buy another!! - "Your mileage may vary."

Bmwguru, what are you going to use for the tach? I know there's some sort of issue with the tach signal not being usable for the early Jettas (mine doesn't work); I wondered if the same thing would apply with the swap you're planning, or do you plan on using some sort of aftermarket unit?

quote Originally posted by bmwguru: I honestly haven't planned out the interior yet. I am leaving my options open in case if I plan on using the VW cluster or VDO gauges. The Fiero gauges won't read properly. The CAN line goes into the VW cluster and the laptop can read the module for the cluster, so I might go that route....I'm really undecided at this point. Dave

Above quote from 1 page back.


This is "vedy vedy intedesting!"

Norm
quote attrbute : Arte Johnson; 'R&M's Laugh In'.

[This message has been edited by gt88norm (edited 05-17-2008).]

I just checked in and I'll be getting back on the VR6 swap this upcoming week. Right now we are at the Carlisle show where the V8 "Gay Orange Fiero" is being displayed in the "Invitational Display" at the Carlisle show. Monday, I have to put a clutch in my gold GT and then after that it is VR6 swap 100%.
The only thing left of the VR6 swap is the shifter and immobilizer delete.
Dave
ps...I've decided to not use the Jetta cluster and go with VDO gauges for the instruments.

[This message has been edited by bmwguru (edited 05-17-2008).]

Saw this car and thought of yours. Karmann Ghia with a Audi 2.8 v6.

That looks like a real tight swap...

Anyway, we have progress.......
I concidered running a stand alone, but in order to do a TDI swap, the factory ECM and wiring need to be retained. Also, the VR6 has odd injectors that aftermarket generic injectors don't work as well with. I also wanted to be able to run the car with the factory components and make this swap look like it came from a VW shop (oh wait...that's what I do for a living).
I spent weeks researching how to delete the immobilizer and finally found a solution. GIAC would not do the delete saying that is was illegal to remove the factory immobilizer...????. Anyway, I did find someone who could do some mods at a great price with a two day turnaround (including shipping). I shipped it out Tuesday and got it back today.
I put the ECM in, programmed the fly by wire and started the engine up and let it run. It has open exhaust right now, so it is kind of loud, but still pretty cool.
I'll post some pics and maybe a video later.
Dave

quote Originally posted by bmwguru:

Great video! I embedded it for you.

I like the muffler =)

------------------
-Kyle
Email: kakagiraffe@gmail.com
Aim: Littlechugger
1988 Notchback 4.9 V8, 5spd Isuzu, Spec Stage 4
True Dual Exhaust, Delta Cam
1993 Ford Probe 2.slow 5spd
1996 Grand Am 3100
2001 Honda CBR 600 F4i

quote Originally posted by arte444: I like the muffler =)

Thanks!
I just cut the stock exhaust off the Jetta at the cat and bolted it up as a joke. It does make a nice sound, though.
Someone sent me a pm asking what I am doing in the video. I am operating the gas pedal with my hands. I have to finish making the bracket for the pedal and wanted to make sure the wiring would be fine while it was still easy to get at.
Dave

quote Originally posted by bmwguru: I just cut the stock exhaust off the Jetta at the cat and bolted it up as a joke.

That's really cool though. Center exhaust ^_^ . Does that mean that the stock exhaust pipe clears easily under the stock trunk?

In that case, with a 90* bend the catalytic converter could be mounted "within the same distance as on the donor car", meaning it could theoretically be California emissions legal.

Could you take a picture from underneath the car to show clearances, when you get a chance? ( with the exhaust pipe installed)
- front of cradle (where the stock Fiero cat would be)
- and back of cradle near trunk)

I did cut the trunk, but that is for the turbo (phase II of this swap). I did measure and a center exhaust would be cool, but I'd need a custom rear bumper to make it look right. So, if anyone has ideas for that, let me know. I will be running magnaflow mufflers and no cat.
I started making the gas pedal mount, but the weather is so nice up here that I had to take a break and enjoy the 70 degree sunny days while they are here. This week, I'll be progressing on the interior wiring and shifter mods...with pics.
Dave

quote Originally posted by bmwguru: I did measure and a center exhaust would be cool, but I'd need a custom rear bumper to make it look right. So, if anyone has ideas for that, let me know. Dave

looks very cool, but I need a license plate.

quote Originally posted by bmwguru: looks very cool, but I need a license plate.

put it to the side next to the cutout, no biggie.

quote Originally posted by bmwguru: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLiStLmSdCY I still have a lot of work to do. The gas pedal needs to be mounted. The exhaust needs to be made and the shifter has to be made. Hopefully, we'll be driving it soon! Dave

Sounds mean. I like it.

quote Originally posted by FieroWannaBe: put it to the side next to the cutout, no biggie.

Put some really strong magnets on the back of the bumper and on your plate, then you could just stick it on and pull it off. Might be a PITA if you plan on driving it around town because of theft, but glue some screw heads onto it and people might think it is attached.

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88 Fiero Formula V6 auto
99 Kawasaki Ninja ZX-6R
99 Nissan Sentra 1.6L 5speed

well, the hardest part about doing a swap that has never been done is the research. I'm sure that my next VW Fiero swap will be much easier and quicker time frame. There are a few things I would change if I started all over again, which I may go back into and revamp once the car is driveable.
A TDI swap is definitely going to be on the drawing board for late 2008 or 2009.
As for the bumper...I'll leave that for the end. I might swap on a fastback rear clip and I really haven't thought about the body mods yet.
Dave

Very nice!

quote Originally posted by bmwguru: I concidered running a stand alone, but in order to do a TDI swap, the factory ECM and wiring need to be retained.

Wiring isn't that hard as you know... but there is also a shop that makes hybrid pumps to run a TDI motor with just a single wire, like how the older VW diesels were. Dug for the shop info with no luck so far, but found this thread:

http://www.vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=6427

[This message has been edited by Faster7 (edited 05-27-2008).]

quote Originally posted by Faster7: Very nice! Wiring isn't that hard as you know... but there is also a shop that makes hybrid pumps to run a TDI motor with just a single wire, like how the older VW diesels were. Dug for the shop info with no luck so far, but found this thread: http://www.vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=6427

Wiring and making harnesses is one of my specialities. My main shop talent is hard diagnosis. I've even had new car dealers send me cars they couldn't figure out.
I'm curious about the tdi aftermarket wiring...I know that you need to be able to read the start of injection pump timing and that needs to be adjusted mechanically while watching the readings on the laptop...but if there is a simple way to do it...maybe that is the way to go. I always seem to overcomplicate things and not stop until I am 110% satisfied.
Dave

Just figured I'd update the progress....
I've been having a bad month. I broke one of my knuckles, one of my employees left at the beginning of our busy season and I've been working 14 hour days to just keep up with the workflow. So, needless to say, I'll be taking a few weeks off any side projects, which sucks because the car is so close to completion. At least it runs!!!
Dave

That's rough Guru, you should look into some help around the shop so you can focus on the important things (ie the VR6)....lol

Sorry to hear about your knuckle. What's the prognosis?

[This message has been edited by Austrian Import (edited 06-16-2008).]

quote Originally posted by bmwguru: So, needless to say, I'll be taking a few weeks off any side projects, which sucks because the car is so close to completion. At least it runs!!! Dave

no... I'm atleastitruns!

^.^ hehe?

I should be back on the VR6 this week. I was working from 7:30am-9:30pm almost every night on just customer's cars. The profits were great, but I'd rather have my sanity back. I hired another tech to help out, so things should be back to normal soon. My knuckle is healing and I even went bowling for Father's Day with the wife and kids. I had to bowl with just my thumb in the ball, and I did pretty well like that, so I might start bowling in my new style from now on.
I'm really hoping to have te car finished by the end of July and then start the testing procedure.
Dave
ps....Atleastit runs....hee hee hee!

[This message has been edited by bmwguru (edited 06-16-2008).]

We have more progress...
I finally put my foot down and decided to work on the Fiero swap this evening and let the customer's cars wait until tomorrow. I also hired a fellow Fiero enthusiest to work at my shop, so now I have more manpower on the German imports during the day and my shop transforms into a Fiero shop at night. I counted three Fieros on my lifts after closing tonight.
Anyway, the auto repair industry had one of the worst winters in the past ten years this last year. Fifteen import shops closed their doors in NJ between April and May. The good news is that is seems that our shop is making up for the winter right now. I have more than double the normal amount of business and there is no end in sight, but I am not complaining.
.
.
.
Tonight I made the gas pedal mount for the fly by wire throttle. I had to use the VW as pedal and make it work with the Fiero's mounting surface. It was actually quite simple. I used a piece of 3/16" steel and drilled the holes where they needed to be. Then I welded in 7mm studs to mount the gas pedal to. The plate bolts up where the original pedal bolted up. It feels just like it was put there from the factory.
Here are some pics...




Looking back on this, I really could have made this a lot easier, but I'm certain that I can make all the emissions components work from the VW in the Fiero and meet 2000 Jetta OBDII specs. Everyone asked me thus far as to why I haven't just run a stand alone and be done with it in four hours. I wanted it to be just like a VW. I wanted to see if it could be done this way.
Dave

[This message has been edited by bmwguru (edited 06-24-2008).]

I snuck down to the shop this morning to play around with the VR6. I left the bay doors closed and the calls forwarded to the voicemail. Amaingly, the phone was ringing and I did see people come by the shop on the camera, but I was elusive and wanted total privacy.
Anyway, I fitted the VW shifter into the Fiero and made some slight mods to have it fit. Then I made access holes into the rear of the shifter housing to allow the cables to exit the rear of the shifter instead of the front. A few test fits and it fit rather well. I then started making the bracket for the transmission end. It came out looking great, but I had to scrap it because the cables interfered with each other when shifting to reverse. So, back to the drawing board.
My wife is planning another one of her crazy road trips this upcoming week, so I'll hopefully have a few nights to spend getting the final stages of this swap done. (I'm already planning the next swap in my third Fiero). Then the car is off to the body shop for fresh paint (my gold one is there now getting the paint done before the swap).
Here are two pics from today. I didn't include pics of the transmission cable bracket because it was not usable.
Dave

Hey Dave ....Not to Hijack, but I have a road trip coming up this weekend too ... My Daughter and I are leaving Sunday morning at O'dark thrity we're going from Portland Oregon to Buffalo NY.... but I can't keep up with your wifes driving stamina... for us aggressive is doing the trip in 3 - 13 hour driving days. Then I leave the Truck/Camper/Daughter/Dogs all at the in-laws, and fly back out here Wednesday night. Then I get to make the trip again in a week..... in a rental truck trailering the Fiero, and caravaning with my wife in her car, and my son driving our other car... woohoo


Rich

[This message has been edited by Richjk21 (edited 07-04-2008).]

yeah, I love her trips. Not to get off topic, but she is once again taking my Benz, three of our kids and three other kids (cousins), while towing a stock trailer full of stuff to be delivered to Louisiana. I gave the Benz a once over yesterday and it passed 100%. An hour later, I got into the truck to go home and the throttle had failed. it is an electric fly by wire throttle and as I pulled into traffic, I lost all throttle function. Needless to say, I was not happy. I pulled the truck back into the shop and replaced the throttle sensor and air mass meter and reprogrammed the throttle stop. All fixed.
I'm glad this happened now and not on Wednesday.
Dave

quote Originally posted by bmwguru: As for the bumper...I'll leave that for the end. I might swap on a fastback rear clip and I really haven't thought about the body mods yet. Dave

Dont mean to highjack the thread or anything but I have a rear fastback clip and decklid for cheap if you are interested. I should have everything but the tail lights, 1/4 glass and trunk seal for a fastback swap. If you are interested let me know. Awsome swap by the way. I would love to have the patience and skill you have.

Guru, check out the VW Vortex forum if you need info on how to get a tach signal...don't recall whether you decided to use the VW cluster or not? But then, I'm probably trying to teach my granny to suck eggs, lol...(the reason I mention it, is my local VW guru, whose talents I respect immensely, was scratching his head for six months over getting my tach to work with my VR6 in my MkII (four cylinder) cluster; I found the solution in the Vortex forum in five minutes of searching; it involves taking signal from two of the connectors on top of the VR6 coilpack through 1K ohm resistors, and then joining the two leads to connect to the tach signal input---it's accurate up to 5,000 rpm, after that the tach sort of goes a little goofy, but at least it works now...we're still trying to figure out what's happening in the upper range)

Dave: Your install looks nice and I admire your talent, perserverence and creative spirit but next time you might want to take an easier approach to your swaps. A 3800SC or an LS4 will bolt up and just about bolt in. Tuning software is readily available.
You've got to get the award for the weirdest engine swap so far. There was a guy on this forum not long ago that was trying a double four engine swap but I don't believe that he suceeded so the award should be all yours. I just can't imagine the R&D that was required to get your project near completion.

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87GT - 3800SC Series III engine, 3.4" Pulley, N* TB, LS1 MAF, Flotech Exhaust Autolite 104's Custom CAI 4T65eHD w. custom axles
87GT - 3.4L Turbocharged engine, modified TH125H
" I'M ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

quote Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua: Dave: Your install looks nice and I admire your talent, perserverence and creative spirit but next time you might want to take an easier approach to your swaps. A 3800SC or an LS4 will bolt up and just about bolt in. Tuning software is readily available. You've got to get the award for the weirdest engine swap so far. There was a guy on this forum not long ago that was trying a double four engine swap but I don't believe that he suceeded so the award should be all yours. I just can't imagine the R&D that was required to get your project near completion.

Dennis,
Thanks. I just didn't want to do a belly button swap. I almost went with a turbo 3800, but I really don't know those engines very well. I work on VW VR6 engines everyday and have done just about every possible repair on them. I could take the engine apart in my sleep...the 3800 not so much. I spent about six months researching the swap and had a few snags along the line. My delay now is the fact of so much customer's cars at my shop and not enough hours in the day. I'm also trying to modify my V8 a little bit to take it to the track this month and I have my daily driver Fiero that I am doing extensive work on at the same time.
If all goes well, I hopefully should have the shifter mounted and functional within the next ten days (or nights).
Dave
ps....if you think this swap is abnormal, my gold GT swap will be really out there...but that will be a 2009 swap.

------------------

1987 GT (my toy-see above), 1987 GT (wife's toy), 1986 SE soon to be VR6, certified master technician/shop owner
www.njautobahn.com

quote Originally posted by bmwguru: ps....if you think this swap is abnormal, my gold GT swap will be really out there...but that will be a 2009 swap.

This is for Austrian Import.....This swap is in our R&D section of our shop right now....will it make it into a Fiero??? Maybe.

[This message has been edited by bmwguru (edited 07-16-2008).]

Its that an 8 cyl engine or am I seeing double today??

JG

That's the W8 isn't it?

quote Originally posted by Fastback 86: That's the W8 isn't it?

yes it is. I have the opportunity to pick up the engine at a reasonable cost, but before I do, I'll be making sure that it will fit in the back of my other Fiero....maybe with a twin turbo setup.
Anyway, I do one swap at a time, so I need to finish up the VR6 swap before I start building the Ultimate 8 cylinder swap.
Dave

[This message has been edited by bmwguru (edited 07-16-2008).]

quote Originally posted by bmwguru:

what is the double shafts on the lower right..counter balance?

quote Originally posted by Vonov: Guru, check out the VW Vortex forum if you need info on how to get a tach signal...don't recall whether you decided to use the VW cluster or not? But then, I'm probably trying to teach my granny to suck eggs, lol...(the reason I mention it, is my local VW guru, whose talents I respect immensely, was scratching his head for six months over getting my tach to work with my VR6 in my MkII (four cylinder) cluster; I found the solution in the Vortex forum in five minutes of searching; it involves taking signal from two of the connectors on top of the VR6 coilpack through 1K ohm resistors, and then joining the two leads to connect to the tach signal input---it's accurate up to 5,000 rpm, after that the tach sort of goes a little goofy, but at least it works now...we're still trying to figure out what's happening in the upper range)

Thanks for the info. I'll probably use VDO aftermarket gauges though. I left all the wiring for the factory cluster in the connectors, but the Jetta cluster is too plain to wind up in a Fiero. I'm a member of Vortex, but not that active there. It is really easy to get lost there. If you search VR6 Fiero in that forum, my car is mentioned a few times by their members that have come to my shop and happened to see it.
.
.
As for the picture, that is the balance shafts for the W8. The swap is still being kicked around. I come across a lot of German engines that other shops are looking to get rid of for a good price, so that is just one of the ideas kicking around in my head. We were also kicking around the idea of a Quattro Fiero, but I'm not a huge fan of the Quattros...and that would require a lot of custom fabrication. One of the other swaps we are planning isn't engine related. I have a cool power steering idea that will be unique and may actually be marketable as a kit in a bolt on in a few hours.
I just need 32 hours in a day and I think my body might catch up to my mind.
Dave