so i was looking around for how much horsepower this transmission could handle because im looking to build a high horsepower 3800 turbo or a 3800SC with a whipple, that’s still up for debate but anyways i really want to stick with a manual transmission because automatics bore me to death but according to GM there transmission pretty much sucks here are specs ratios are decent in my mind but power handling and torque is well not good

2006 F40 (MT2)
Type: transverse front wheel drive, six
speed manual transaxle
Engine range: 3.9L
Maximum engine torque: 245 lb-ft ( 333 Nm )
Maximum gearbox torque: 295 lb-ft ( 400 Nm )
Gear ratios: MT2
First: 3.77
Second: 2.04
Third: 1.32
Fourth: 0.95
Fifth: 0.76
Sixth: 0.62
Reverse: 3.54
Final Drive 3.55
Maximum validated gross vehicle weight: 3527 lb ( 1600 kg )
Case material: aluminum
Center distance: 197 mm
Fluid type: Castrol BOT 0063
Transmission weight: 56 kg ( 123.5 lb )
Fluid capacity (approximate): 3.1L / 3.27 qt ( dry )
Power take off: no
Applications: Pontiac G6

or here is a link to where i got this: http://www.media.gm.com/us/...06%20F40%20(MT2).pdf

I’m pretty sure this is accurate since its from GM, or they don’t want you to blow it up so they say this but that max for torque and horsepower I was like wtf so now I’m thinking this would not be so good sine my goal is like 400-500 horsepower, And no power take of what?

Basically im looking for other ideas or any experience people have had with this trani I know it is relitivley new so I don’t think to many people have swapped this yet. Is there a better manual trani available that cost is reasonable I mean if i had the money I would just buy a QQ/F25 or the QQ/F35(Quaife Upgrade F25 to 6 Speed and Quaife Upgrade F35 to 6 Speed) but last time i checked those were not cheap? do you think the transmiision will handle my horsepower goal yes no maybe? any thoughts or comments are welcome.

And if you want to know why I want this much horsepower? Simply because I can and want to! I’m a speed freak...

Thanks Tyler

EDIT I cant spell

[This message has been edited by hammer18 (edited 01-20-2008).]

Yeah but do remember that gm is always going to way under rate these things for warranty purposes. since the g6 gtp it came is had 241 lb of torque , you could exceed this with minor mods lil exhaust and intake plumbing might get u to 246 and bam warranty void. its just an easy way to keep modders out. Plenty of people have matted 400 lb of v8 torque to this with little issue. But if you dont want this WCF does sell a 6 speed out of a NSX but its MUCH more expensive and MUCH harder to install. I dont know about using it with a v8 either in case anyone reading this is wondering.

Well... All stock FWD transmissions that fit our cars suck big time in power rating. However that hasn't stop many here from running high hp/tq engines in them. Now if you plan to drag race your car all the time you better stack up on replacements of whatever. For that there is a company making stout automatics for the GP guys running 9s. And I wouldn't trust the NSX at all either seeing that the car only makes 290hp/224tq at the flywheel

The torque rating should be higher in a Fiero because 245 lb/ft is in a vehicle with a maximum weight of 3527 lbs considerably heavier than a Fiero. The last time I did the conversion calculation I arrived somewhere in the vicinity of ~300 lb/ft assuming you have a 2700 lb Fiero, once the reduction in weight is accounted for in reduced acceleration load.

GM played with the gear ratios for the 2007 version. First and second remained the same, but the rest changed a tiny bit:

3rd: 1.37
4th: 1.05
5th: .85
6th: .71

I have the 2006 version in my car, hooked to an LS2. Contrary to what some would have you believe, this transmission will NOT break the first time you drive the car. Or the second. Or the.... you get the idea. I've put 2000 miles on the drivetrain, and nothing has broken, and I don't expect it to, either. People have run a lot more power through the much more lightly built gettrag. While I don't try to make every launch a new attempt at the land speed record, I have gotten on it more than a few times. No complaints. There IS a big RPM drop from first to second, so high-revving 4 cylinder engines may not be suited for this transmission with these ratios. An LSx on the other hand feels right at home bolted to this transmission, and I imagine a 3800 would work just fine as well.

how can you tell from the outside if it is a 06 or 07 revised tranny? is it still a mt2 code?

rick

That's a good question, and I don't have a good answer.

My guess is they are identical....

I would like to add, that although many "have" done things and not broken transmissions, an equal number have tried to reproduce those things, and drive them a bit harder than the other did, and blown up many many transmissions.

Out of the 2 people I know personally, they have killed 2 newish getrags, and 3 4speeds. This was done with significantly less than 400whp, and most the time it was at the dragstrip.

Fieros have a very decent traction advantage over the FWD cars these were installed in, so it is not hard to load these transmissions up significantly if you have decent grip and more power than it is ready to handle.

The newer GM transmissions are stouter and designed better, but they are not the end alls to keep them from breaking.

I would also think that anyone involved in the archie camp would not be a very trustworthy source, just due to the fact that he is trying to sell 6speed swaps to any and all fiero people, and IMO the sole reason for this is the fact that they are strong transmissions.

Have you owned one? Any first hand information on someone destroying an F40? No "I heard from a friend of a friend" crap, real first hand information.

[This message has been edited by Doc John (edited 01-21-2008).]

quote Originally posted by Doc John: An LSx on the other hand feels right at home bolted to this transmission, and I imagine a 3800 would work just fine as well.

Even 1st gear? come on now, even YOH have to admit that the first gear is rediculously short and rather useless with a V8...

It IS a very low gear - it's onle real use is to get the car rolling, then you go ahead and grab second.

I am amused by people acting like these transmissions are made of glass - remember, Saab had a hand in the design of the F40.

quote Originally posted by Doc John: It IS a very low gear - it's onle real use is to get the car rolling, then you go ahead and grab second. I am amused by people acting like these transmissions are made of glass - remember, Saab had a hand in the design of the F40.

i certainly never said that they were liek glass, they are certainly stronger than a getrag, but 1st gear is your money making gear, if these trannies had gear options that were better without spending 15 grand, nobody would be even bothering with a 5 speed getrag or a 4 speed muncie anymore...the 1st gear KILLS the appeal of this tranny. I would much rather cryo treat an econo geared 4 speed muncie inside '85 or later casing, and mate THAT to a V8 as opposed to this 6 speed. it has a much better suited FD/first gear combo, and it's 4th gear economy is very close to the 6 speeds 6th gear economy..

"Overall" ratios for trannies in 1st and last gears:

"econo" 4 speed: 1st- 11.72:1 , 4th- 2.42:1
F40 6 speed: 1st- 13.38:1 , 6th- 2.20:1
Getrag 5 speed: 1st- 12.64:1 , 5th- 2.60:1
V6 4 speed: 1st- 12.08:1 , 4th- 2.96:1
isuzu 5 speed: 1st- 12.50:1 , 5th- 2.48:1
"perfm" 4 speed: 1st- 14.47:1 , 4th- 3.32:1

Anyways, it is what it is...hopefully GM will mate the 6 speed to the 5300 LS4 V8 one of these days, and then they will mass produce gearsets that we can use with our V8 swaps.

Here's to hoping.

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: I would also think that anyone involved in the archie camp would not be a very trustworthy source, just due to the fact that he is trying to sell 6speed swaps to any and all fiero people, and IMO the sole reason for this is the fact that they are strong transmissions.

You make this sound like the Shiites versus the Sunnis.

You need to develop a little more perspective in your life. Right now you sound like an obsessed person, and obsessed people usually have miserable lives.

quote Originally posted by Doc John: It IS a very low gear - it's onle real use is to get the car rolling, then you go ahead and grab second. I am amused by people acting like these transmissions are made of glass - remember, Saab had a hand in the design of the F40.

you obviously have an eye for picking out key words of my previous post... I said "my friends have destroyed many stock fiero transmissions", and you jump on me saying that I have no idea what I am talking about. But in reality, your just a troll and dont care to read or even ask questions before you flame all over me. To answer your flame on the problems with my friends transmissions.... I was in the car when my friend with the 3800 swap broke every one of his transmissions, and changed ever single one out with him, and examined each failure just as closesly as it was my own. The others i refered I may have not been there, but accurate in person descriptions or visual inspection of failed units furthered my HANDS ON EXPERIENCE with fiero manual fwd transmissions, and IMO allows me to make a general statement about my position on the power handling of these transmissions.

I then went on to discuss that in essence the design of the "modern day" transmissions offer a significant improvement over the transmissions of old, but they still are not designed to handle the type of power discussed in this thread in real world (not "omg I have a v8 and I never lose a show garage queen") situations that have been the most common recipient of this transmission. I have not ever heard of any 6speed ever going to the track except for "tazmandevil" whatever, and that was mostly irrelevant because not only was it agonizingly slow, but the power that car made was not even close to the numbers discussed in this thread.

I never even inferred that these transmissions were "made of glass", I merely brought up a few well known facts concerning manual FWD transmissions in general.

Not obsessed, are you?

quote Originally posted by Doc John: You make this sound like the Shiites versus the Sunnis. You need to develop a little more perspective in your life. Right now you sound like an obsessed person, and obsessed people usually have miserable lives.

can someone say irrelevant?

Its merely a general observation of mine, that should be able to say without taking crap for it. People in this thread might not know that you are directly related to someone trying to sell 6speed swaps (and happens to be the only guy that offers 6speed swaps right now), so I was mearly stating that anything you say would be of some bias.

Feel free to discount my credibility with a post that doesnt result in you flaming me.

Hmmm.... I don't think Archie and I are related. Have I purchased things from him? I sure have. I also have purchased from EVERY major Fiero vendor, past and present.

[This message has been edited by Doc John (edited 01-21-2008).]

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: can someone say irrelevant? Its merely a general observation of mine, that should be able to say without taking crap for it. People in this thread might not know that you are directly related to someone trying to sell 6speed swaps (and happens to be the only guy that offers 6speed swaps right now), so I was mearly stating that anything you say would be of some bias. Feel free to discount my credibility with a post that doesnt result in you flaming me.

I tend to agree with DH here, i think that archie is pushing the 6 speeds heavily because it has better power handling, and it makes his past work more reliable. He used to sell SBC's with isuzu trannies, and no offense to those who still have theirs and they havent grenaded them yet, but an isuzu on a V8 is just a joke in general...Archie is a business man and he has a business to run, so naturally he is going to push those new more expensive trannies on customers, old and new. as to reliablity goes, i dont see any kind of track record to really go on with the 6 speeds, so few people have them in their fieros. right now, they are not a cost effective swap

quote Originally posted by stickpony: i certainly never said that they were liek glass, they are certainly stronger than a getrag, but 1st gear is your money making gear, if these trannies had gear options that were better without spending 15 grand, nobody would be even bothering with a 5 speed getrag or a 4 speed muncie anymore...the 1st gear KILLS the appeal of this tranny. I would much rather cryo treat an econo geared 4 speed muncie inside '85 or later casing, and mate THAT to a V8 as opposed to this 6 speed. it has a much better suited FD/first gear combo, and it's 4th gear economy is very close to the 6 speeds 6th gear economy.. "Overall" ratios for trannies in 1st and last gears: "econo" 4 speed: 1st- 11.72:1 , 4th- 2.42:1 F40 6 speed: 1st- 13.38:1 , 6th- 2.20:1 Getrag 5 speed: 1st- 12.64:1 , 5th- 2.60:1 V6 4 speed: 1st- 12.08:1 , 4th- 2.96:1 isuzu 5 speed: 1st- 12.50:1 , 5th- 2.48:1 "perfm" 4 speed: 1st- 14.47:1 , 4th- 3.32:1 Anyways, it is what it is...hopefully GM will mate the 6 speed to the 5300 LS4 V8 one of these days, and then they will mass produce gearsets that we can use with our V8 swaps. Here's to hoping.

Have you ever driven one? I bet not because the only people I always see saying this have never being clos to one. I don't find 1st gear on this any different than the getrag I had. If that is bad then it will for all the other swaps out there.

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: can someone say irrelevant? (and happens to be the only guy that offers 6speed swaps right now)

Uh, no he's not

------------------
Recanizin' Flat-Buns Since 2001

Eric Nelson
Internet Sales Manager
Power Ford Valencia
nelsone@autonation.com

quote Originally posted by Chicken McNizzle: Uh, no he's not

I obviously meant f40 swaps... WCF doesnt have a link on their webpage to a f40 install kit.

Personally, I'd like to see GM come out with a nice big beefy wide ratio 5-speed transaxle. I think that would be great for a Fiero with an SBC swap. The way I look at it, if you've got enough torque you don't really need all that many gears. Look at the Shelby 427 Cobra. Big engine with lots of torque in a small car, only 4 speed transmission. (Boy would I love to have one of these. )

For a comparison, here is the f40 and the NSX transmission side by side, with a 5500rpm input, this is the resulting MPH.

nsx (6speed) 34.36624349 53.86855959 73.78634632 93.65946893 115.281075 146.9552337
F35
F40 31.98757612 59.11429509 91.35845605 126.9401705 158.6752131 194.5051

As you can see, the f40 has a nominally worse first gear, but has an increasingly wider upper end, and a great highway gear. Now here is a stock fiero getrag......

fiero 282 33.88252672 57.84821635 85.93394457 126.1583442 164.7067271

still a better cruise gear....and an identical first gear. The nsx is a huge downgrade when comparing effective ratios. I suppose strength could be better, but its nominal at best.

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: I would also think that anyone involved in the archie camp would not be a very trustworthy source,

Wow, Doc, Alex.... He just called you guys liars.

You may want to turn in your weapons & badges to the Sgt. on the way out the door.

Archie

dark horizon, is you calculations based on the f40 w/ the revised 4th gear or the overdrive 4th?

rick

quote Originally posted by Alex4mula: Have you ever driven one? I bet not because the only people I always see saying this have never being clos to one. I don't find 1st gear on this any different than the getrag I had. If that is bad then it will for all the other swaps out there.

i dont need to drive one to know that the 6 speed's 1st gear is terrible for decent drivability in a V8 swap, the numbers dont lie.

the econo 4 speed has an overall 1st ratio of 11.72:1. with 215/60/14 tires, at 6k rpm, the vehicle speed is 37 mph
the g6 6 speed has an overall 1st ratio of 13.38:1. with 215/60/14 tires at 6k rpm, the vehicle speed is 32 mph

coupled with a V8, shifting at 37 into 2nd gear is much better than shifting at 32, due to the balls low end TQ of a V8, it gives the driver more time to react and shift acurately, and give a better comfort zone.

Now, if someone is running a 3.4DOHC v6 that revs freely to 7.5k rpm, then that is a different story, the econo 4 speed isnt a great choice of tranny to mate to a V8 to begin with, but it is certainly better than a g6 6 speed, significantly better..

so yeah, my argument holds water, your opinion doesnt match facts on paper.

does anyone know any details on these transmissions i can find anything anywhere on them?

QQ/F25 or the QQ/F35(Quaife Upgrade F25 to 6 Speed and Quaife Upgrade F35 to 6 Speed)

[This message has been edited by hammer18 (edited 01-22-2008).]

From Fast Fieros site compliments of Loyde, he's done a great job with it:

http://www.fastfieros.com/N...nsmission_ratios.htm

[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 01-22-2008).]

quote Originally posted by stickpony: i dont need to drive one to know that the 6 speed's 1st gear is terrible for decent drivability in a V8 swap, the numbers dont lie. the econo 4 speed has an overall 1st ratio of 11.72:1. with 215/60/14 tires, at 6k rpm, the vehicle speed is 37 mph the g6 6 speed has an overall 1st ratio of 13.38:1. with 215/60/14 tires at 6k rpm, the vehicle speed is 32 mph coupled with a V8, shifting at 37 into 2nd gear is much better than shifting at 32, due to the balls low end TQ of a V8, it gives the driver more time to react and shift acurately, and give a better comfort zone. Now, if someone is running a 3.4DOHC v6 that revs freely to 7.5k rpm, then that is a different story, the econo 4 speed isnt a great choice of tranny to mate to a V8 to begin with, but it is certainly better than a g6 6 speed, significantly better.. so yeah, my argument holds water, your opinion doesnt match facts on paper.

Ok. Not driven one. Now I understand. Now please tell me the elapsed time between 32mph and 37mph in first gear from a 350hp/400tq Fiero for example. One second? Two seconds?

yes thats where i learned about those tranmissions from fast fieros but thats all i can find nothing els, are these racing transmissions and cost 20,000 dollars?

quote Originally posted by Alex4mula: Ok. Not driven one. Now I understand. Now please tell me the elapsed time between 32mph and 37mph in first gear from a 350hp/400tq Fiero for example. One second? Two seconds?

Probably more like .25 seconds... but that's .25 more seconds that you have to get your 1-2 shift right...

The difference between a short 1st and a taller 1st could be the difference between grabbing 2nd gear inside the 60 foot mark and grabbing it outside the 60 foot mark...

It could mean the difference between having a first gear that's useable in tight corners and having a useless branch on the shift pattern.

Comparing all the first gears in all the manual transmissions that are available for the Fiero (not counting WCF's NSX conversion, because that's a white elephant) is like comparing different shades of useless. The NSX box isn't a whole lot better because it was set up for a 3.0 litre engine to move a car heavier than a Fiero...

The best you can do with what's on the market as far as first gear goes would be the 3.31 first from a V6 4 speed with the 3.32 final from the econo 4 speed. That gives you an overall ratio of 10.99:1... which is still pretty bad.

First gears for engines with normal RPM ranges are pretty good at about 9:1 overall... at least for racing involving turning corners.

Think about the kind of gearing that OEM's put in cars that they build with 350 WHP... first gears are in the mid 2's, usually, and the cars are generally a lot heavier than Fieros. Anything with an LS1/2/6/7 and a T56 is an example.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 01-22-2008).]

quote Originally posted by Will: Probably more like .25 seconds...

Ok. I guess then that probably 98% of the Fiero owners would care about that 1/4s because we know that we all do drag or corner racing and we can loose money or pride by loosing by a 1/4 second.

if it doesnt work at the track, why would it work better on the street?

quote Originally posted by Alex4mula: Ok. I guess then that probably 98% of the Fiero owners would care about that 1/4s because we know that we all do drag or corner racing and we can loose money or pride by loosing by a 1/4 second.

98% of Fiero owners don't swap to 6 speeds.

Don't assume you know anything about my point of view because of things someone else says in this thread.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 01-22-2008).]

quote Originally posted by Will: 98% of Fiero owners don't swap to 6 speeds. Don't assume you know anything about my point of view because of things someone else says in this thread.

I'm not assuming anything. What I'm saying is that 0.25s is nothing. By the numbers some people say and may want to think that all the stick tranys are horrible for a high HP car. What I'm trying to convey is that it is an exaggeration even for the Getrag. Could it be better? Yes. Is it horrible? No. And not everyone cares for 0.25s difference unless you are betting money.

I think the 282's horrible, and all I had was a measly 279 cubes...

A quarter second is huge if you've put a lot of effort into your car and want to get the most out of it. Why do you think that race teams pay $10-15K for replacement gearsets for stock transmissions? Changing gear ratios is tuning just as much as changing fuel curves.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 01-22-2008).]