I have been planning to build a set of long tube headers for my SBC car for about a year. After a great deal of searching and some luck, inspiration was found. Most certainly these are not a direct fit, but this is the general style I am after.

Right now, the tubes come out too far from the engine/valve cover to fit within the fiero engine bay and the collectors need to be shorter/angled further down to allow space for a merge collector and clear the strut tower, frame rail, cradle crossmember and sway bar.

The plan is to hack this set up and make the needed tweaks to reroute the tubes for clearance in the fiero engine bay while retaining the equal length and 180 degree design. Once the prototype is made and fits, then I will order a bunch of tubing and weld up the final set.

Here are the preliminary mock up pics:






Here is the engine waiting for the new headers:


This is going to be fun!

Looking forward to your build.
Check Eric Marsh's Fiero out.
http://www.hotrodder.com/emarsh/

Honestly I think you are far better off starting from scratch. Those are way off in all areas even if the end up pointing more or less where you need them. I would better take a good look at the ones posted by Jake and try to copy those. I bet that at the end you will end up doing as much cuts and welds or more than starting from scratch. Then also think what gains do you expect based on your current engine mods versus cost of effort. Unless you just want the looks. At least myself I wouldn't get into such big project/investment unless I was going to gain well over 25-30hp. But then I'm not a proffesional welder so I would need to hire

quote Originally posted by Alex4mula: Honestly I think you are far better off starting from scratch. Those are way off in all areas even if the end up pointing more or less where you need them. I would better take a good look at the ones posted by Jake and try to copy those. I bet that at the end you will end up doing as much cuts and welds or more than starting from scratch. Then also think what gains do you expect based on your current engine mods versus cost of effort. Unless you just want the looks. At least myself I wouldn't get into such big project/investment unless I was going to gain well over 25-30hp. But then I'm not a proffesional welder so I would need to hire

In the end, the headers will be scratch built for the final version, but the ones above will serve as a rough guide as they are reworked to allow the pipes to flow where I want them. I am not one just to copy what someone else has done, so while I appreciate the info on the other set of headers, that will not be the direction I take.

I already have a baseline of the engine as it is today, so their benefit will be measured once done.

My motivation for this project is:
1. to improve HP (no set target) and set the stage for the next round up upgrades (heads/cam)
2. have a truly unique setup
3. have another metal fabrication project to keep me busy - it is my hobby and I love doing it.

Time for a frame stretch

quote Originally posted by fieroguru: My motivation for this project is: 1. to improve HP (no set target) and set the stage for the next round up upgrades (heads/cam) 2. have a truly unique setup 3. have another metal fabrication project to keep me busy - it is my hobby and I love doing it.

I can appreciate that! To many have lost sight of "because I can"....

I had about an hour to work on the headers today. Phase 1 is to define the new collector location. I wanted the collectors to dump to the rear of the car and angle down enough for the exhaust to clear the shelf of the trunk.

Here is the preliminary mocked up collector position:



Just checking clearances:



In this picture, I put blue tape on the tubes that will go in the lower portion of the right collector. The tubes on that side of the engine will need to come towards the collectors. As the tubes on that side of the engine are routed, I will ensure they clear the firewall.


Some other notes:
Original tube locations on the collectors were marked to ensure they go back to their original locations.
The tranny dip stick will still clear with the collectors in their current position.

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 06-21-2008).]

I said in the first post that these headers were too wide to fit. Now with the mocked up firewall and trunk I can show you the clearance issues:

Trunk side: the tubes would need to go into the trunk.


Firewall: the aluminum bar represents the firewall up to the torson springs for the decklid.

Cool build. Not sure if it's worth it, but it sure looks fun. Have you verified height?

Bob

Nice helper..My daughter (4) loves to help, too.

if possible and it does look like you can with that arrangement, line up your header primaries in the collector so that each one will fire next to the last one in a revolving pattern ..it scavenges the pulses more efficiently that way

quote Originally posted by RCR: Cool build. Not sure if it's worth it, but it sure looks fun. Have you verified height? Bob Nice helper..My daughter (4) loves to help, too.

The supplied height is 7 1/2" from the top of the engine block - about the same height as the dist so height was not an issue.

My little helper (Carrera) turned 2 in March and she loves to come out to "daddy's house" and get dirty pickup up loose stuff and placing it where she thinks it goes saying "I fix it"... Watching her grow and learn is simply amazing! Her favorite word today was "firewall".

quote Originally posted by Erik: if possible and it does look like you can with that arrangement, line up your header primaries in the collector so that each one will fire next to the last one in a revolving pattern ..it scavenges the pulses more efficiently that way

Thanks for the tip. It was easy to get the right collector to pulse counter clock-wise (swapped 1 and 7) and not too much work for the left to pulse clock-wise. I plan to merge the two collectors before the muffler, so I figured having the two rotating into each other would be best... probably doesn't matter and if it is completely wrong, then please speak up.

Ok, yeah... your crazy

When I was designing my long tube headers I looked at that format and just couldn't figure it out. Glad you have done it. Kind of F1 eh?

Arn

Can you build me a set for my Northstar?

That's not just outside the box... that's on another planet........................... I LIKE IT

can't wait to hear the sound clip,
Russ

quote Originally posted by Jefrysuko: Ok, yeah... your crazy

That I am... just ask my wife!

quote Originally posted by Arns85GT: When I was designing my long tube headers I looked at that format and just couldn't figure it out. Glad you have done it. Kind of F1 eh? Arn

I doubt it will sound like an F1, but maybe an old Can Am racer. It should sound different than most other SBC's. I haven't got it all fugured out yet, I am still pondering over the collector location (might come closer to the engine) and the tubing routes - currently they are just not pleasing enough to the eyes so expect to see some additional "what if" scenarios. The pictures will also help me get back to a certain style if 10 changes later I find that I liked #3 the best.

quote Originally posted by Russ544: Can you build me a set for my Northstar? That's not just outside the box... that's on another planet........................... I LIKE IT can't wait to hear the sound clip, Russ

Russ, I am sure you are more than capable of making a set for yourself (probably more so than I am)! I think they would look AWESOME with a set of ITB's, but since you haven't made me a set, my Ramjet setup will just have to do. That reminds me, I need to take a couple of current sound clips so there can be a comparison of what a "simple" exhaust change can do to the exhaust note.

Back to my asylum.

The firewall bank just wasn't doing it for me, so here is the latest version.



Here is what both sides currently look like:


I ordered some additional tubing that might be here by this weekend, if it shows up, I might start mocking up some of the tubing starting with the collectors.

I was able to spend a few hours this morning mocking up the actual header tubes. They are relatively close now, but don't be suprized if I tweak them a 1/4 to 1/8" here and there to make them look their best. Once the collector end is mocked up, I will start on the flange tubes. These headers are a stepped design, where they will start at 1 5/8" at the head and after a certain distance go to 1 3/4" so all the tubes you see are 1 3/4"

Here is some eye candy!

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 06-29-2008).]

quote Originally posted by fieroguru: I think they would look AWESOME with a set of ITB's, but since you haven't made me a set, my Ramjet setup will just have to do. Back to my asylum.

leave room for them . the idea is still rattling around up there but I haven't run across a manifold that I really like for an afordable price. the tpi manifold that I origanally got for the mockup just hasn't turned me on, and I've been too busy since then to look into it more.
I'm really enjoying watching your project. that's gona be cool, so keep plugging away at it.

Russ

I was able to spend about 4 hrs today working on the headers some more. I tweaked one of the rear tubes slightly and started mocking up the front bank. The general shape is good, but they still need some bends added to get them pointed in the right direction. Then I will cut them all to the same length and then start building the 1 5/8 tubes from the exhaust ports to the ends of the 1 78" pipes and keep them all the same length.

There is a large HEI in the pic, but I run a small remote coil one, so there will be more clearance as well as a heat shield to keep the dist from baking.






I am really starting to like the look of these!

i have a question.
are the pipes going over the valve cover? wouldnt be difficult to remove the valve cover?

but i like the way it looks tho looks pretyt mean!

quote Originally posted by joshh44: i have a question. are the pipes going over the valve cover? wouldnt be difficult to remove the valve cover? but i like the way it looks tho looks pretyt mean!

The rear valve cover is still removable, but the front one might not be without loosening the headers. The passenger side decklid hinge bracket also keeps the front valve cover from being removable unless you rock the cradle back to get it out from under the hinge. In 5 years, I have never had a need to remove the valve covers.

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 07-12-2008).]

Here are a few pics for the skeptics... rear bundle of snakes and they are equal length in total, as well as the 1 5/8 and 1 3/4 portions.






I hacked up one side of the original 180 headers and used the 1 5/8" tube and flange to mock up the rear side. It is 18ga and the flange is only 1/4" thick, so I am going to buy some better flanges and some additional 1 5/8" 16ga tube to match the 16ga on the 1 3/4". So I will be redoing this part... but atleast now I have parts to copy.

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 07-13-2008).]

That's going to be beautiful when you're done. It's almost worth doing for just how good it's going to look.

Getting them to equal length with all the bends is a real challenge. Congrats on achieving it. What length are the primaries or did I miss it?

Arn

quote Originally posted by Arns85GT: Getting them to equal length with all the bends is a real challenge. Congrats on achieving it. What length are the primaries or did I miss it? Arn

12" of 1 5/8 and 30" of 1 3/4" for a total of 42"

That's absolutly NUTS. which is exactly why I like it so much.
I'm looking forward to the sound clip for the final nod however
I guess you've made provisions for shift cable routing and other similar "incedentals"?

Great job so far,
Russ544

quote Originally posted by Russ544: That's absolutly NUTS. which is exactly why I like it so much. I'm looking forward to the sound clip for the final nod however I guess you've made provisions for shift cable routing and other similar "incedentals"? Great job so far, Russ544

Thanks! The shifter cable will run along side the headers:


To install these, I will have to relocate my coolant crossover tube that is bolted to the firewall, redo the brace for my rear engine mount, relocate the coil, make new custom length spark plug wires, replace rubber fuel lines with steel, and I will most likely make a new engine wiring harness to further tidy things up.

Later this year I will take the car out of commission for the next wave of upgrades.

A buddie of mine (Mick) owns a hot rod shop, as well as doing custom exhaust work. if you want a top chopped on a 49 Merc, or all metal flairs on a Chevell, this is the guy to see.... What was the old guys name on American Hot rod? the grumpy old metal worker?... anyway, that guy could be my buddie Mick. he doesn't give out compliments unless it's pretty dang unusual, and very well done. anyway, I was showing Mick the pictures of your project and his eyes opened up a bit as he says "that's pretty cool ! ". He does want to know why you'r using two different sizes of tubing however. why the step?

Cheers,
Russ

quote Originally posted by Russ544: What was the old guys name on American Hot rod? the grumpy old metal worker

That would be Roy Schmidt. According to Wikepedia he was only 64 when he died. I had thought he was much older.

Roy was definetly very good at what he did and demanding of those who worked with him. I wish I had someone like that to learn from.

Have you seen this web site? http://www.hotrodder.com/emarsh/

He was actually pretty active on PFF 5 or 6 years ago.

I talked to him several months ago on the phone & he said all that pipe area did create a lot of heat in the engine compartment.

Archie

[This message has been edited by Archie (edited 07-14-2008).]

quote Originally posted by Russ544: A buddie of mine (Mick) owns a hot rod shop, as well as doing custom exhaust work. if you want a top chopped on a 49 Merc, or all metal flairs on a Chevell, this is the guy to see.... What was the old guys name on American Hot rod? the grumpy old metal worker?... anyway, that guy could be my buddie Mick. he doesn't give out compliments unless it's pretty dang unusual, and very well done. anyway, I was showing Mick the pictures of your project and his eyes opened up a bit as he says "that's pretty cool ! ". He does want to know why you'r using two different sizes of tubing however. why the step? Cheers, Russ

For the life of me I can not remember the name of the sheetmetal guy from American Hot rod... I am glad your buddy thinks these headers are cool and he has a very good idea of what it took to get them to this stage. Once I get them done, I suspect there will be more questions about the headers than anything else in the car...

The stepped tubes came about due to a couple of factors.
1 5/8" tubes at the heads helped from a packaging standpoint.
With the collector location, these are longer than I would have liked and didn't want them to be a restriction.

http://headerdesign.com/index.asp has a nifty program that you enter your engine size, compression, planned HP and RPM of HP peak and it will spit out the primary diameter/length and collector diameter/length.

For a 350 +.060", 10.2:1, 350 hp @ 5200 rpm
Performance factor = 1 - To maximize lowend torque - Primaries 1.39" ID @ 40.6" in length, 2.06" collector 13.4" long
Performance factor = 6 - street/strip with manual and low gears - Primaries 1.46" ID @ 36" in length, 2.29" collector 14.7" long
Performance factor = 10 - all out drag race - Primaries 1.51" ID @ 33.5" in length, 2.45" collector 15.5" long

With 1 5/8" 16ga tube, the ID is roughly 1.50, so ideally the headers needed to be 36" in length for a 350 hp engine as listed above. I needed mine to be longer and want some room to grow HP wise for future cam/head upgrades.

For a 350 +.060", 10.2:1, 450 hp @ 5600 rpm
Performance factor = 1 - To maximize lowend torque - Primaries 1.50" ID @ 38.3" in length, 2.27" collector 13.0" long
Performance factor = 6 - street/strip with manual and low gears - Primaries 1.58" ID @ 34.2" in length, 2.51" collector 14.2" long
Performance factor = 10 - all out drag race - Primaries 1.63" ID @ 31.9" in length, 2.68" collector 15.0" long

At 450 hp, the 1 5/8" primaries (1.50" ID) would be maximizing lowend too much (and still be too long). The 1 3/4" 16 ga primaries (1.625 ID) would be at full race level at 32". So with 12" of 1 5/8 and 30" of 1 3/4 16ga they should be somewhere in the middle at the 450 hp level.

Until the cam/head change, they will be close to full race... and I am curious to what the pros and cons will be on the dyno and on the street.

Disregard didnt see you already said that.

[This message has been edited by linuxpowered88 (edited 07-20-2008).]

I think your progress is the eptimone of what a Fiero should be ..please keep it dual dependant on firing pulses, 180 degree ..not into a common muffler ..

[This message has been edited by Erik (edited 07-20-2008).]

quote Originally posted by Erik: I think your progress is the eptimone of what a Fiero should be ..please keep it dual dependant on firing pulses, 180 degree ..not into a common muffler ..

Thanks!

I am still undecided on if I will keep them as true duals or merge them into a single exhaust.

If I merge them, the plan would be to 90 towards the passenger side out of the collectors and have the two sides merge into a common 3" pipe as they make the bend. Then they would go into a resonator and on the passenger side do a 180 bend and connect to the existing 3" in dual 2 1/2" out muffler. This setup should help keep the volume level close to what I have now (which is rather loud), and if there would come a time that I needed to pass tail pipe emissions (the headers would never pass the visual), then I could install a highflow cat in place of the resonator.

If I were to run them true duals, I would want them to be equal length as well, which will be a challange since they both will dump closer to the driver side and I like the balanced look of the dual megaphones in the stock location. I think the right collector could turn 90, go across the car, do a 180 on the passenger side and then come back across the car with a muffler mounted under the rear cross memeber and exit on the driver side. The Left/Driver side could turn right with a 90 to the right, into a mullfer in the general stock location and exit on the passenger side. There would need to be a few additional bends added to equalize the lengths... but I still have a lot more thinking for this.
I haven't done much to the headers this week, been busy getting the SBC car ready for the 25th, cleaning/oganizing the garage to make room for another 88 fiero (4.9 install for a friend) and working on the honey do list in preperation for our 2nd child that should be joining us in mid august.