86 SE 2.8 . the car had sat for 9 years, I got it , pulled the tank & put in new pump/sock/filter after cleaning the tank. It has 44 PSI at the schrader valve. It will start for a second then quit. shut it off, start for a second, then quit. It pegs the oil pressure gauge when it starts. Tach is working. The only way I can keep it running is to squirt quick start into the intake. No bad fuses. flashing no codes. WHY won't it stay running ??? Thanks for your help & any advice.

If I am not mistaken, the Fiero has a cold start injector. After a few seconds, the fuel to this injector is shut off. Your main injectors may be stuck or gummed up with varnish. Just a guess but if it will continue to run on starting fluid, etc. it sounds like an injector issue to me. Keep us posted.....

how do I check to see IF the injectors are working?? Could ALL of them be bad ? can I check for power going to them some way ? Thanks

quote Originally posted by Lou6t4gto: how do I check to see IF the injectors are working?? Could ALL of them be bad ? can I check for power going to them some way ? Thanks

It's not your injectors,a whole set wont all go at once.It's probubley something else.Your either not getting spark or fuel one or the other.So you seem to be getting fuel pressure at the schrader valve.A few posobilities would be:
1.A bad distributor cap (sometimes the center pin on top of the distributir cap will pull out,when changeing plug wires).The rotar is replaced at the same time.
2.A bad ignition modual (the pickup is replaced at the same time.
3.A bad coil pack.
4.Fireing order is off (if you changed plugs and wires).Did you remember to gap your plugs?
5.Look for broken wires around the battery (fuseable links) and under the wireing harness thats near the battery (use a mirror if you need to).They do sell spark plug testers,so you can verify your getting spark (while the plug is out of the engine block).Start by checking your fireing order first and dont go by what the previous owner had them set at,go by the book or have someone post a pic.

Did you try testing the fuel pressure while the engine is running?It might not be holding pressure.

I would check to make sure that the ECM is seeing the reference pulse from the ignition module in the distributor. This pin is marked R on the module. I had the same problem and it took me 3 months to figure it out. The ECM goes into Fuel Cutoff Mode if it does not see this signal. This means the injectors are shutoff ie no fuel. When the engine is cold it will use the Cold Start Valve to supplement the fuel at start up. This shuts off after a few seconds. On a 85 V6 the wire color is PPL/WHT CKT 430 at the ECM.

[This message has been edited by Sidecar 2M6 SE (edited 07-09-2008).]

NEW cap & rotor. it WILL run if I keep spraying fuel in, so it's got to be a fuel problem. it's not getting any. it's got spark. can't check the pressure , it's not running for more than a second or two. if I keep spraying Quick start into it, it'll run, but PING like hell. (Guess I COULD check the running pressure like that)

Yep, that's what Fuel Cutoff Mode means. No fuel to the engine so it doesn't flood. I tried everything to figure it out when it happened to me and the manual was my last resort. But low and behold it was the only troubleshooting method that actually told me for sure what was up. If you have a spare ignition module kicking around try replacing it.

I chased this same exact problem around and around when I let my car sit for 2 years without starting it.

I even had it towed to a local mechanic and he couldn't figure it out. (In retrospect, he must not have been awake when working on my car LOL)

It's easy to overlook the very basics. You need 3 key things for an engine to run: 1.Air 2.Fuel & 3.Spark.
(of course there are other things you need as people will argue but that's the three major components)

I'll cut to the chase, it's your FUEL INJECTORS. Insufficient fuel flow.

My car would run with starting fluid as long as you sprayed it in the throttle body, but on it's own it would start and run for a half second and then die.

That's because the fuel injectors were clogged and it would run out of fuel that quickly as it was getting very little fuel.

I took out my fuel injectors and 3 were completely stopped up, one was very barely working and the other 2 sprayed but not so much.

I tried the distributor cap, rotor, plugs, all that stuff. It was not a waste as those things needed replacement anyways but I just overlooked the obvious, not enough fuel.

Remember, gas has a way of stopping up fuel injection parts etc. Every wonder why people have so much trouble starting weedeaters after a winter's storage?

Ask yourself, does the car run well on starting fluid? Can you operate the throttle while using starting fluid and it runs fairly well. Then your answer is not enough fuel.

Of course, I would have said replace your fuel filter also, but you did check the fuel rail pressure it was fine there.

already changed out the entire distributor with one from a good running engine, so it can't be the module.

You need to pull the top plenum and the middle intake, then you can pull the fuel rail and injectors.

I'd recommend sending them to Cruzin Performance Click here for Cruzin's web site He does an excellant job, is reasonable in cost and quick for turnaround. He's done 3 sets of mine and I couldn't be happier.

You'll need to repace the gasket where the middle intake mounts on the lower intake, the plenum gasket and the throttle body gasket. If you use Cruzin, he replaces all the O'rings and screens so you can just plug and play.

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Marc in sunny Titusville, FL

• 84 SE son's car, loaded
  
• 85 Coup w/V6 transplant
  
• 85 GT newly on the road
  
• 86 SE/GT "The Chameleon" - big plans!

[This message has been edited by Gwain (edited 07-07-2008).]

I've torn the top end (middle intake and up) off My 2.8 many times and the only gaskets I replaced were the upper intake/plenum gaskets cause I had extras laying around that "looked" better. When I did a 2.8 for 2.8 swap but wanted to use the heads from the motor being pulled I did replace all intake gaskets along with head gaskets. Since that swap though, I will only replace middle intake gaskets and up "IF" they are worn and brittle which I haven't had to do yet. I don't know I guess some People will use RTV sealant on all gaskets, but on the top end the only time I used RTV was on the ends of the lower intake where it rests on the block, nowhere else and haven't had any problems. I can see replacing the intake gaskets if sealant was used and it can't be removed from the gasket to form a good seal, or if old and brittle, but otherwise I just reuse them. Just My 2cents-trying to help You save $

Is your fuel pump relay working? I would test by 12+ to the fuel pump terminal (G?) in the ALDL and start it. If it has fuel pressure with key on, starts then quits it might be the relay not switching on when the oil pressure comes up.

brand new relay

is the hole in the plenum(upper intake) in line with the rear (trunk side) throttle body mounting bolt? When I first got My fiero I saw what I thought was a hole in the plenum only to discover it is just where the drill came through when the plenum was drilled to allow mounting of throttle body

No, this is a ROTTED hole at the flange,next to where the throttle body bolts on. makes me wonder, "are there any more ROTTED holes in the intake ?" Maybe theres a BIG Vacuum leak & thats why it won't run ?!

Didn't read everything you tried, but I bought my Formula cheap 'as is' because the PO and the dealer he traded it to had this problem. The TPS arm was frozen, $40, IIRC, and it ran like a dream. You can check with your finger to make sure the arm moves freely. Good luck.

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Notchbacks RULE

"Let a man drive a Fiero and he'll own one.
Teach a man to fix a Fiero and he'll own eight....errr...nine."

[This message has been edited by Fierobruiser (edited 07-08-2008).]

Not the TPS (tried a new one, no difference) BUT... the NEW sparkplugs are getting Gas Fouled !!!! Surely THAT MEANS something to someone.

Oh, by the way, that "rotted" hole IS where the bolt went through, just rotted the rest of the way through.

The R terminal from the Ignition Module is at a low voltage, typically 3 - 5 volts. Your test light needs 12 volts to light up, also the R terminal is only active during crank and run, if the motor actually is running. Have you done a compression test to see if your valves are open and closed at the right time? At this point I would do an initial TDC on cylinder 1 test to make sure everything is going round and round in proper time with each other. It's sounds like you have everything there to make it go but it just isn't running. How long will it run for on it's own, 1 second? 2 seconds? I would also check the reference signal (PPL/WHT CKT 430) wire from the Ignition Module to the ECM connector header at the ECM behind the Glove Box on the console. Disconnect both ends and use an ohm meter on it, it should have very little resistance. Just because it shows up at the module doesn't mean the ECM can see it, if the wire is broken. Starter fluid can cause very high compression and combustion temperatures, I would try not to use too much when trying to keep it running, I would use a spritzer bottle with some good old everyday gas in it as an alternative if it was my project.

[This message has been edited by Sidecar 2M6 SE (edited 07-09-2008).]

Starts up like a Champ ! only runs for 1-2 seconds. I checked & it IS getting spark to the plugs in the RUN position on the ign switch. the cold start is working, the injectors are not injecting. Is it possible that it could be the pressure regulator ? if a 12 volt test light won't tell me anything, what kind of tester is needed? Thanks

Here is a link to the 86 GM Factory Service Manual.

http://spad.sytes.net/fiero/manuals/

I use a digital multimeter for most of the testing I do. A test light is very limited in it's ability to tell you anything more than that 12 volts is present.

The ECM is in open loop mode at startup and uses stored values for everything until the O2 sensor is hot enough to provide a usable signal to the ECM. Then it switchs to closed loop and the motor is under full ECM control. If the stored values in the PROM / CALPACK are corrupted it won't run. I don't think the local parts store ECM tester can't even tell if this is the case. A spare ECM from the same kind of car can be swapped in to determine this. Disconnect the battery before swapping the ECM or before disconnecting anything connected to the ECM

Check the injector circuits for any shorts to ground. Use an ohm meter on the injector wires (PNK/WHT and PNK) wires at the injectors with the key off at the ignition. The resistance to ground there should be very high, if not the wire is probably shorted to ground somewhere.

The ECM provides a pulsed ground to each bank of three when they are pulsed on, this is how the ECM turns them on and off to provide the right pulse width to deliver the right amount of fuel. You will see somewhere around 12 volts (use a DC voltmeter) depending on the resistance of the coils inside the injectors (green and blue wires at the injectors) at the ECM side of each bank of injectors when the key is on (motor not running) if they are getting power from the ignition switch.

You said the new spark plugs appeared fouled with fuel. Are they soaked? Are the injectors shutting off and then it stalls? You can use a test light on the injector wires to see if they are pulsing at the (PNK/WHT and PNK wires at the injectors) while you try and keep it running with external fuel delivered into the throttle bore. I would be careful providing fuel to it this way as the mixture could be very lean or very rich depending on how quickly you add the fuel. Not to mention the fire hazard this method creates. I hope you keep a fire extinguisher handy.

If all else fails, it's time to pull the fuel rail and check that the injectors are all getting fuel to them and that they and/or the fuel rail are not gummed up with varnish from sitting so long.

One other thing is that the cold start valve might not be working properly, either plugged and not providing enough fuel at startup or leaking when it should be off and flooding the motor enough to stall it.

Check the connector at the oil pressure switch as well. The fuel pump relay is controlled through this connector. If it is loose the oil pressure gauge will pin with the motor running because there is too much resistance in the line to the gauge, Does the oil pressure gauge go to zero when you turn the key to on before trying to start it? If this doesn't happen then the connector at the oil pressure switch is probably loose and creating a big resistance in the line to the oil pressure gauge. I would think that maybe the fuel pump relay is not staying on either due to a bad connection at the oil pressure switch. Use the fuel pump test line to keep the fuel pump on if all else fails.

I am about to pick up an 86 SE 2M6 this weekend that has been sitting for 7 years and I need to get it running too. I'm hoping it will start!

Good Luck Man, I hope you get it running!

[This message has been edited by Sidecar 2M6 SE (edited 07-10-2008).]

Sounds like the same problem I had on my 85 GT. Turned out to be a bad ECM.

quote Posted by Lou6t4gto on 7-07-2008 Had the ECM tested , passed with flying colors !

When you say you had the "ECM tested", do you mean the whole ECM computer, behind the middle console, or the module in the distributor? If you only tested the module, then we still don't know if the ECM is working.

The reason I ask is like Sidecar 2M6 SE said, the ECM is in "open loop" when starting, and the distributor module provides the spark but the ECM should provide the fuel based on the chip tables. When the engine reaches the proper RPM's, then the ECM computor takes over. In your case (as was in mine) it doesn't sound like the ECM is taking over.

A "simple" test is put a 12 volt test light in the fuel pump connector of the ALCL and try to start the car. When you turn the key on, you should hear the fuel pump run a couple of seconds, driven by the relay, it should then shut-off. You said you're seeing 44 psi fuel pressure at the shrader valve after you installed a new pump, so I'm "assuming" the relay's working.

At this point if you turn the key to "crank" your test light should glow as the ECM takes over driving the pump. Eventually, after several cranks, the pump will come back on as the oil pressure sensor closes to provide power again to the pump. However, during that interim period, if the ECM doesn't drive the pump, then either the ECM isn't getting a signal from the distributor, or the ECM itself is bad!

quote Posted by Lou6t4gto on 7-07-2008 already changed out the entire distributor with one from a good running engine

At that point, swapping in a known, good ECM will answer the question quickly. Since you seem to have access to a "parts" car, try swapping in the ECM (only takes about 10 minutes) and see what happens.

Let us know!

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Marc in sunny Titusville, FL

• 84 SE son's car, loaded
  
• 85 Coup w/V6 transplant
  
• 85 GT newly on the road
  
• 86 SE/GT "The Chameleon" - big plans!

any way of TESTING the ECM ? (not the one in the dist ) I'm thinking of buying a replacement of of ebay

Well, didn't GET the ECM, got outbid at the last second. so back to square 1, STILL WON'T RUN !

Before you tear in to the top end of the motor try checking power at the ECM for the injectors. Using a multi meter set to DC plug the red lead into Pins D14, D15, D16 and C15 one at a time. The black leads goes to a good ground source. With the Key on you will have 12V at all 4 pins, this tells you that power from fuses TBI1 and TBI 2 is making thru the engine harness and up to the ECM. With the key turned to start watch the meter as the engine cranks over. The voltage should drop 3 to 4 volts everytime the ECM commands a ground. When the ECM turns the ground off your meter will rise back to 12V. It will cycle everytime the ECM is seeing a pulse from the ignition.

If you do not have 12V at the above pins check fuses TBI 1 and 2 for being popped. If you have good voltage going to ECM but it does not cycle 12v / 8v-9v /12v the ECM is either is not seeing the refrence pulse from the ignition system or the ECM is dead. This will diagnose the wiring going to and from the injectors and a portion of the ignition system. If the injectors fire electrically but are not letting fuel thru then injectors may be a cuplrit.

Good luck.
88Ironduke

can't find a diagram of d14,15,16 , can you post one ? what should the multimeter be set at ??/ DC, what ? 20 , 200...??? Thanks, electricty is NOT my thing.

I have the same problem and it is driveing me even nuttier than usual. One day last week I starrted my 88 6cyl, 5spd, 34K, car a couple times before I went for a nice ride ending up at a emissions testing station. Car was running like a top. The Tech went out to get the car, which never left my view, and I could see he was having a problem. I thought he could not work the e-brake so I went to help. Turns out car would fire up but shut down immediately. I flat bedded it home, changed the fuel filter, old was good, and checked the fuel pressure (over 40). Plenty of spark, fuses OK. Plugs look good but dry. I have never seen check engine light come on durring operation and no error codes are in memory. I have not yet tested any further and wonder were to start considering the car was running so well. I apologize in advance if I have jumped in where I am not suppose to be, It is my first time on this fantastic site. Any insite would be greatly appreaciated. Thanks, Paul

I am also having the same problem as of last week. The started well before that... Now it starts and shuts down immediately.

I'll be watching closesly....

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Jay Brintnell
Southern Ontario Fiero Association
Yellow 85 Notchback(A.K.A. GodFearN)

WHERE are terminals D14,D15,D16,&C15 ??? digram anyone ?? thanks will a ecm out of a 87 GT 5 speed work in a 86 SE 2.8 auto ??? just for test purposes ???

They are the pins on the connectors going to the ECM itself. Your ECM has two connectors, one is 24 pin (smaller) and the other is a 32 pin (larger) connector. You will be looking at the larger of the two connectors. The pins are marked from top to bottom, Pins D15 and D16 will be light blue wires, pins D14 andC15 will be light green.

If you send me your email address I can send the schematics you need.

88Ironduke

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Pilots with out maintainers are just pedestrians with a cool jacket and sunglasses.
I.Y.A.M.Y.A.S.

OK, the 2 lt blues HAVE 12 VOLTS, the 2 lt greens HAVE 12 VOLTS on ON, when turned to start, when it starts, they go to 9 volts, each one of them. So WHAT does this mean ?? in english ?? Thanks

You can somewhat tell if an injector is working by unplugging the wires that snap onto it, and then connect a 9 volt battery (I have been told that you shouldn't use 12 volts for this). Touch the wire to the 9 volt battery while listening/feeling of the injector, if you feel/hear a click, it is at least working electrically. If there is no click, then it is stuck. If it is stuck, then take a long extension or a screwdriver, and very gently tap the injector. It will more than likely come loose and begin to work. Check all 6 this way until you are satisfied that each one is working.

This test won't tell you if the spray pattern is good or bad, but if old gas has caused them to stick you should be able to loosen them up and at least see some improvement.

I saw the tip about tapping on the injectors on one of the garage shows on tv a long time ago, but have since used this method, on one injector, and it worked.

Good luck

Duane

seemed like the 4 pins had 12 volts at ON, when started, it went to 9 & stayed there. is that possible ? or maybe it was pulsing to fast for the cheap mutimeter to read, so it just stayed at 9 ?