Hi all,

After long waiting for it, a few days B4 the 25th I finally got my hands on an Indy scoop replica.



Now the question is - What should I do with making it functional (can't stay in rice land much longer )

There are only a handful of threads of PFF'rs making these scoops functional:

~~ Oreif used it for engine bay cooling ~~
https://www.fiero.nl/forum/A...060206-2-065271.html


~~Cooter installed a sealed air filter and fed the intake with it ~~
https://www.fiero.nl/forum/A...010116-2-004333.html




~~Philphine had used a similar method with the 4 Cyl ~~
https://www.fiero.nl/forum/A...030204-1-021087.html



That's about it, from what I was able to find.
I would prefer to use the scoop as the engine intake air feed

My Questions:

1. Is there any benefit having the airflow go from above the car rather then the stock intake setup?
(I am not referring to possible Ram Air effect when going over 100 M/h since I don't drive that fast, correct me if I'm wrong)

2. Would there be more benefit in just using the scoop for engine cooling?

3. Is there a problem / solution for water getting into the scoop and onto the air filter? (Special air filter?)

4. Is there a recommended filter I should use for this function?

5. Do I need to transfer the IAT sensor (?) from the stock location onto the new air tube? or can it stay in it's location and still work?

Thanks for your comments / suggestions

------------------

T-Top ~HUD~LEDs ~Red Fieros~Carputer~Montreal Club

[This message has been edited by Mister (edited 08-13-2008).]

I dont see any advantage to having the air intake up there, though you do add the possibility of the intake filling with water if you dont have a good seal to the decklid. There wont be any improvement in air tempature or quality (the air going over the car is the same air that goes around it, just 3 feet to the right)

The MAP sensor must always be attatched to the intake vacum port. Im assuming you meant the IAT, intake air temp sensor, that must be in line with the air going into the engine, doesnt much matter where. If you left it laying in the engine bay, it could get heat soaked and trick the ECM into thinking incoming air is warmer and cause it to run lean.

I dont know that you would really notice an advantage using it for cooling either, the engine bay actually is well ventillated when moving as it is, its mostly sitting still that heats it up.

Still, I think it would be the more logical of the two options, less work, less mess, and no downside.

If I'm not mistaken the real Indy only used it for engine bay cooling and not engine air intake, so that would be my preference.

Mind me asking where you were able to find one? Are there any more?

------------------
1984 SE 4 spd
1988 4 cyl 5 spd
84 Indy #1578
84 Indy #1656

quote Originally posted by 86GT3.4DOHC:I think it would be the more logical of the two options (cooling), less work, less mess, and no downside.

Note taken thank you. (and I guess it is the IAT not MAP.)

quote Originally posted by jscott1: If I'm not mistaken the real Indy only used it for engine bay cooling and not engine air intake, so that would be my preference.

Some say, it was not even functional at all - just a device to hold the strobe light - Note taken.

quote Originally posted by maryjane:Mind me asking where you were able to find one? Are there any more?

2 places I know still sell them:

1. http://www.fierowarehouse.com/
"INDY PACE CAR SCOOP:
The Indy Pace Car Scoop is designed to maintain the styling of the air scoop used on the 1984 Indy 500 Fiero Pace Car. The scoop mounts in the center of the rear deck, and contains a gas strut and latching system which allows it to clear the roof when the rear deck is raised. The scoop is for styling only, and is not intended to be functional.
$375 (includes hardware)"

2. http://www.showcars-bodyparts.com/scoops.html
This was the original source for my scoop many years ago. (I got it from the original buyer)
Last I heard they still sell it for $190 with no hardware and only God knows when you'll get it from them.

I would highly recommend supporting the fierowarehouse - a true Fiero merchant with a proven track record

I've P.M'd the guys who did these functional scoops before and waiting for their input on this, any other comments are welcome.

[This message has been edited by Mister (edited 08-13-2008).]

Hehe, Philphine is a helluva guy. He gave me the Fiero (clean title) that is now the basis for my Nissan powered freak.

As far as the scoop goes, I would rather have something that eliminates the sail panels and makes use of that space, similar to the turbo MR2 setup. Now if you were to channel the air from the Indy scoop over an intercooler, that'd be one very useful scoop.

More input please...

OK, you asked for my two cents. Well here goes.

You do not need a filter in the scoop at all. You should just have a sealed pipe inside the scoop extending up into an upside down J to help reduce water entering the intake. Then use a piece of an old deck lid to make the decklid two layers below the scoop. The space between them will be where the air flows into the filter. Then you will need to go to a wrecker and cut up an old Z24. They used the hood as an air path and their filters sealed to the bottom of the hood. Mount the filter housing somewhere that allows it to touch the decklid but does not look horrid. This should get you out of the land of rice, it should not detract muct from the look of your car, and it should not hurt performance much.

If this was as clear as mud, call me and I will explain. Maybe if I get ambitious (not likely) I will take some pics and draw some diagrams.

Take care,

Rick

P.S. I got a bit of ambition here goes quick MS paint sketches.

[This message has been edited by spookything (edited 08-15-2008).]

Keeping it simple, you have an engine bay ventilation system. It is designed for the car to be going like stink to work correctly. At a standstill the scoop will act as a chimney and let air rise from the plenum on up. When underway it pumps air down and provides some needed ventilation. Bear in mind that it was designed for the 84 which had very poor ventilation.

They look very cool, but for function, you want the car to be going freeway speeds to get the benefit. I don't think I'd tie it to the engine intake. It would work, but, the engineering work is just not worth the net gain. You can get similar results just putting the CRX intake into the wheel well cavity.

That said, it looks cool and is, I think, a definite style pleaser.

Arn

Wow, talk about a blast from the past! I had pretty much forgotten about doing that until I saw the pictures. I don't know if the scoop hurt or helped, but it sounded like it was doing something when you got into the throttle and had the sunroof open. With a better way to connect the air filter to the engine (other than the flexihose), it probably would have been better. I never had any trouble with water getting into it and I drove that car everywhere all the time. For the life of me, I cannot remember what I did with the IAT. I am thinking that I made a bracket and let it hang in the area where the original air filter was, but I can't recall. I guess it really needed to be in the air stream somewhere, but I never had any driveability issues from it.

I think it would like nicer if it were resting on the roof of the car... rather than hanging an inch above. looks nice man.

------------------
1986 GT Fiero Owner & Enthusiast
For Fiero updates, visit my site and don't forget to click on the ads!
http://educatorstop15.we.bs/fieropage.htm

quote Originally posted by spookything:You do not need a filter in the scoop at all. You should just have a sealed pipe inside the scoop extending up into an upside down J to help reduce water entering the intake.

Interesting idea, we'll talk about it, I just think it will reduce the intake noise I wanna get.

- Arn, I'm not knowen for keeping it simple but I agree using the scoop for venting the engine bay is the "right" thing to do.

- Chrismclubm, this scoop normaly goes about 2cm above the roof line. The original ones on the indys are connected with a bracket and hinge at the front where the scoop intake is.

[This message has been edited by Mister (edited 08-17-2008).]

Got some good info from Oreif (PM)., awaiting more info.

Didn't the Indy have some kind-of intercooler inside of it's air scoop? I'd love to see that re-implemented.

i have to agree with cooter, especially with mine being on a 4cyl. it's not like it released the fury of a duke, but it sounded neat with the sunroof open.

i took mine off. mostly because i started playing with another idea and liked it enough to swap out what i was doing, but i think on a carbed or carb like throttle body project it would work ok, even just to get that sound back. especially with an engine really moving some air. i still like the idea though. i have one on another project that i'm not getting to far with, but the indy scoop setup i had on the other car is part of the plan.

if that is a v6 car you're showing (with a stock intake, not a carb switch or something), i think i'd try one fi-air-o type scoop (drivers side) if you like the over the top style. it would be easier to work out something for use as an intake.

Thanks for the reply,

quote Originally posted by Philphine:it sounded neat with the sunroof open.

That's what I'm aiming for

quote Originally posted by Philphine: i think i'd try one fi-air-o type scoop (drivers side)

Not for me. The indy scoop is getting A LOT of attention on the road and I'd rather use proper Fiero equipment and parts for my mods - at least this way I have some sort of justification for that "Snorkel" over my head

BTW Philphine, did you ever have water reaching the filter? what did you do to prevent it?

+s all around for the good replies, thanks some of you had a + from me already LOL

[This message has been edited by Mister (edited 08-20-2008).]

quote Originally posted by Mister: If I choose to go with cooling only, this would be my dream Indy scoop setup (On my dream Fiero - the 86 Turbo)

Does this mean there is a fastback conversion in your future?

EDIT: By the way, any engine bay pictures of the turbo? I'd love to see what's stashed beneath the deck lid.

[This message has been edited by Bradley Jay (edited 08-20-2008).]

Wasn't there an inter-cooler heat exchanger integrated into the rear spoiler on that car? If you've got some photo documentation of
that part of that car, I, for one, would like to see those. If you please! . . . . Thank-you!

Norm

<edit>
Oh yeah, . . . and those muffler/resonator things on the exhaust tips too please.

[This message has been edited by gt88norm (edited 08-20-2008).]

quote Originally posted by Bradley Jay: By the way, any engine bay pictures of the turbo? I'd love to see what's stashed beneath the deck lid.

Found these...







------------------

3.4L S/C 87 GT www.fierosound.com
2002/2003/2004 World of Wheels Winner &
Multiple IASCA Stereo Award Winner

[This message has been edited by fierosound (edited 08-20-2008).]

quote Originally posted by fierosound: Found these...

Whoa.

Thanks for providing the pictures.

Couldn't You design some sort of shaker hood like you would find on a trans am or mustang? Just make it small to hide under the scoop, I mean what kind of engineering is in a shaker hood to keep water out? Could be a very nice and seamless mod.

quote Originally posted by Mister: what did you do to prevent it?[/COLOR]

nothing. the pic you've got posted is how it was. if you look near the back of the base, near the hinge, that little hole had a tube attatched for drainage if i ever got to trying to seal the filter in the scoop, but i had the scoop off and on to other things before that. i drove it that way year round with no problems. at best all i can guess is that a duke isn't sucking hard enough to draw much water in. i mean i drove it through a few torrential downpours and if it affected anything i couldn't tell. i have to admit the car isn't running now, but that pic is what? 5-6 years old? and it's been off the car maybe 2 or so years. if it was the cause it took a long time to mess things up.

Thank-you Fierosound !

Norm

well you could go carb. get an intake off an old s10 and use it to feed your carb.

quote Originally posted by Bradley Jay:Does this mean there is a fastback conversion in your future?

Not at this time

quote Originally posted by fierosound:Found these...

Thank you very much and a (+) I didn't grab these shots at the show. It does clear the picture even more.

quote Originally posted by Philphine:i drove it that way year round with no problems.....i drove it through a few torrential downpours and if it affected anything i couldn't tell.

Gotcha, thanks

quote Originally posted by Curlrup: Couldn't You design some sort of shaker hood like you would find on a trans am or mustang? Just make it small to hide under the scoop, I mean what kind of engineering is in a shaker hood to keep water out? Could be a very nice and seamless mod.

Thanks Curlrup,
I admit I had to Google the term shaker hood
I agree it would make a good solution, and I did think of separating the scoop to stay on the Fiero engine while the deck-lid rises.
However, so far the solution Cooter has made makes the most simple sense to me.
The only thing I might change is the way it connects from the filter to the TB.
I would like to use solid tubes in the right diameter and fabricating some sort of a male-female tubing that will connect and separate with the hood lifted.

There is an interesting quote on the Shaker scoop link above "Because of the high volume of air that engines draw, rain, even a downpour, cannot cause significant damage/wear to the engine."
Is this true?

quote Originally posted by 3.6lvvt6spdgt: well you could go carb. get an intake off an old s10 and use it to feed your carb.

Thanks man, but I honestly LOVE the Fiero upper plenum, it has some Fiero pride in it
Carb is not an option for me at this time.

[This message has been edited by Mister (edited 08-21-2008).]

Found something that I might be able to use...with a bit modifying.

https://www.ramairhood.com/...iew.asp?idproduct=18

[This message has been edited by Mister (edited 10-09-2008).]

I have always understood that the airflow direction of engine cooling is based on a "bottom up" flow.. and the scoops would basically neutralize that flow out, and create a weaker downward flow.

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: I have always understood that the airflow direction of engine cooling is based on a "bottom up" flow.. and the scoops would basically neutralize that flow out, and create a weaker downward flow.

Yes, Cool air is drawn up from the bottom and travels up the firewall side then out the grates.
But, If the indy scoop is opened up and installed properly, It will force the air down the trunk wall side. It will reduce engine compartment temps. When I had my indy scoop it dropped the engine compartment temps as much as 20* when traveling at 25mph or faster.

If you look at the pics in my first post you can see that the opening in the decklid is on the trunk side of the engine.

[This message has been edited by Oreif (edited 10-10-2008).]

So basically the upward flow effect is nothing near what the indy scoop can generate as far as air velocity goes?

That would mean that the fiberglass vent scoops and such are viable also? I really like making fun of those things..... lol

This is the direction I'm taking this project now...

A long panel filter above. (center plate to be modified)


A low profile air box below with a feed tube to the intake.




I've not yet found the right combination of filter, air box and tube. The space is VERY limited.
The one in the picture is from a Chrysler. I would prefer to have a box where the outlet is to the left rather then the firewall. (See pic above of the Ram-Air-Hood intake)

[This message has been edited by Mister (edited 10-13-2008).]

Before...


WIP




It'll have to wait for more work tomorrow...

[This message has been edited by Mister (edited 10-15-2008).]

quote Originally posted by Mister: If I choose to go with cooling only, this would be my dream Indy scoop setup (On my dream Fiero - the 86 Turbo Find a similar 3rd break light

Does anyone have an idea what this lens is from? I would love to incorporate that into my scoop!

Waay out there idea: Swap in an engine with a stock turbo and a top mounted intercooler. (i.e. Subaru WRX (STi), or Mazdaspeed 3/6, Mazda Cx7, Acura MDX? IIRC - the turbo version.)

I always thought the scoop would be fitting.

any progress?

1. Is there any benefit having the airflow go from above the car rather then the stock intake setup?

Higher air is cleaner than air down low (kicking up road dirt and such from the tires). I remember a quote about the 89+ models that they were very excited about getting the intake up higher than before on the GTs. Its just optimum for an intake.

2. Would there be more benefit in just using the scoop for engine coolin
g?
Other than the above I can't think of anything.

3. Is there a problem / solution for water getting into the scoop and onto the air filter? (Special air filter?)
For the V6 it might be a bit tougher with plumbing an intake around the top plenum. The water trap arrangement (the upside-down J) I think would be a good way to go. Unless you know absolutely that you won't be driving in the rain. (weekend/show car only)

4. Is there a recommended filter I should use for this function?
It comes down to the shape that fits the best. I'm not aware of any special anti-water filters.

5. Do I need to transfer the IAT sensor (?) from the stock location onto the new air tube? or can it stay in it's location and still work?
It would be optimum if the sensor were moved to where the air is actually coming in but I would have to question its absolute necessity for the sake of keeping things simple.

Hope some of that helps. Congrats on the new acquisition!

[This message has been edited by WKDFIRO (edited 10-20-2008).]

Not much progress, doing more thinking and research...
I'm away for a few more days, so I'll try to answer everything when back

quote Originally posted by Austrian Import: Waay out there idea: Swap in an engine with a stock turbo and a top mounted intercooler. (i.e. Subaru WRX (STi), or Mazdaspeed 3/6, Mazda Cx7, Acura MDX? IIRC - the turbo version.) I always thought the scoop would be fitting.

Thanks for the idea man, but an engine swap is out of the question for now

quote Originally posted by WKDFIRO: 1. Is there any benefit having the airflow go from above the car rather then the stock intake setup? Higher air is cleaner than air down low (kicking up road dirt and such from the tires). I remember a quote about the 89+ models that they were very excited about getting the intake up higher than before on the GTs. Its just optimum for an intake.

As much as I know the benefit is not significant. the stock Fiero intake setup is proven to be good for the engines requirements.

quote Originally posted by WKDFIRO: 2. Would there be more benefit in just using the scoop for engine cooling? Other than the above I can't think of anything.

Reply:

quote Originally posted by Oreif: When I had my indy scoop it dropped the engine compartment temps as much as 20* when traveling at 25mph or faster.

quote Originally posted by WKDFIRO: 3. Is there a problem / solution for water getting into the scoop and onto the air filter? (Special air filter?) For the V6 it might be a bit tougher with plumbing an intake around the top plenum. The water trap arrangement (the upside-down J) I think would be a good way to go. Unless you know absolutely that you won't be driving in the rain. (weekend/show car only) 4. Is there a recommended filter I should use for this function? It comes down to the shape that fits the best. I'm not aware of any special anti-water filters.

All true and relevant questions (like I was asking in the beginning of this thread). I would definitely drive the car in the rain and still thinking about the best solution. K&N has "Drychargers" for some of their filters but they are meant to prevent splashes of water from soaking the filter, not prevent tiny droplets of water from going through the filter.

quote Originally posted by WKDFIRO: 5. Do I need to transfer the IAT sensor (?) from the stock location onto the new air tube? or can it stay in it's location and still work? It would be optimum if the sensor were moved to where the air is actually coming in but I would have to question its absolute necessity for the sake of keeping things simple.

You kinda answered yourself here LOL. I agree with you and would try to relocate the IAT when I'll get to it.

Thanks

~~

In other news... Another picture of the air filter box cover I found. It's from a 90s Chrysler NewYorker (and some other models) and fits like a glove both under the scoop and in the gap available on the decklid but I'll have to check and see if this unit and filter would be able to provide enough air flow for my V6.

O.K...Another 3 hours at the wreck-yard, and I was able to find another air box. this one is from a Ford Ranger XL and is about 2" longer and should allow slightly better air flow.
The box fits under the Indy scoop (after some "trimming" see pic ) and the outlet is 2 3/4"



The filter from K&N is the 33-2087 that should flow 332 CFM.





The next BIG problem is how to get the air into the T.B with all the twists and turns....

[This message has been edited by Mister (edited 11-01-2008).]