Point taken, but also consider your transmission never had this many miles on it before. It's not an issue of common sense. It's whether or not the part is really necessary or not. If the bushing doesn't contact the input shaft, no biggie. It's money wasted but it's only $15. But if the input shaft does contact the bushing and it's not supposed to have one, that could damage the transmission.
I appreciate your trying to help people, but wrong information is worse than no information. We just want to make sure no one is given the wrong advice. It's nothing personal.
Originally posted by Formula88: I appreciate your trying to help people, but wrong information is worse than no information. We just want to make sure no one is given the wrong advice. It's nothing personal.
Wrong information is telling someone that GM didnt install them and to not bother...
That pisses me off. 14.95 on a flipping part MAY HAVE avoided this... you dont know that and I dont know that but son of a bich I WILL be installing one the next time around. It came from the factory WITH IT... GM INSTALLED IT... PUT ONE IN when you replace your 1200.00 engine. Simple as that.
quote
These inserts are pressed into the rear of the crankshaft and provide support for either the input shaft of a standard transmission or direct support of the torque converter hub of an automatic transmission. Use the following chart and diagrams when selecting a replacement crankshaft insert, keeping in mind GM also supplied engines to the Jeep Corporation for postal use:
Model Year Drive Model Part # View
1977-81 RWD Postal Jeep J3237088 D 1977-81 RWD Postal Jeep 33004041 E 1977-91 RWD Buick, Olds, Pont, Chevy 10007202 A 1978-93 FWD Buick, Olds, Pont, Chevy 10009785 B 1982-83 RWD Camaro, Firebird w/ auto 10018699 C 1982-83 FWD w/ automatic trans 10018699 C 1982-83 FWD w/ manual transmission 10009785 B 1982-86 RWD Camaro, Firebird w/ manual 10007202 A 1984-86 FWD w/ automatic transmission 10018699 C 1984-86 RWD Fiero w/ automatic trans. 10018699 C 1984 FWD w/ manual transmission 10009785 B 1984-86 RWD Fiero w/ manual trans. 10009785 B 1984 RWD Camaro, Firebird w/ auto 10018699 C- OD 1.498, ID .827 1985-93 RWD GMC, S-10 Chevy 3752487 E 1987-93 RWD S-10 Chevy, w/ manual trans. 10032605 1987-93 RWD Buick, Olds, Pont, Chevy 10007202 A
It is recommended to inspect all crankshafts to ensure that the proper insert is installed to match the desired application. AERA is currently aware of several aftermarket suppliers for some of the above mentioned inserts.
Fierostore 84-88 4cyl CLUTCH PILOT BUSHING This new pilot bushing installs in the end of the crankshaft on 4cyl standard transmission Fieros. Part #69785 Price:$14.95 CLICK HERE
Get one and remove all doubt.
[This message has been edited by 84Bill (edited 11-17-2008).]
Crankshaft Flange Inserts on GM 2.5L (151 CID) Engines
General Motors Corporation uses 3 different crankshaft inserts on their 2.5L (151 CID) engines.
These steel crankshaft inserts are pressed into the tail end of the crankshaft and provide support for a pilot bushing on vehicles with manual transmissions or directly support the nose cone of the torque converter on vehicles with automatic transmissions.
Use the following chart and diagrams when selecting a replacement crankshaft or steel crankshaft insert:
Model Year Drive Model Part #
1979-80 RWD all 10007202 1980-81 FWD all 10009785 1982-83 RWD Camaro, Firebird w/ auto 10018699 1982-83 FWD all 10018699 1982-83 FWD w/ manual trans 10009785 1982-84 RWD Camaro, Firebird w/ manual 10007202 1984 FWD w/ auto trans 10018699 1984 RWD Fiero w/ auto trans.10018699 1984 FWD w/ manual transmission 10009785 1984 RWD Fiero w/ manual trans. 10009785 1984 RWD Camaro, Firebird w/auto 10018699
* w/ auto = vehicle with automatic transmission w/ manual trans. = vehicle with manual transmission
It is recommended to inspect all crankshafts to ensure that the proper insert is installed to match the desired application.
Crankshaft Pilot Bushing Update On 1979-93 GM 2.5L Engines
The AERA Technical Committee offers the following information regarding an update on crankshaft pilot bushings for 1977-93 GM 2.5L engines. Previously, AERA published Technical Bulletin TB 477R. The information in this bulletin is to be used in addition to that bulletin. GM has used six unique crankshaft pilot bushing inserts for their different 2.5L engine applications.
These inserts are pressed into the rear of the crankshaft and provide support for either the input shaft of a standard transmission or direct support of the torque converter hub of an automatic transmission. Use the following chart and diagrams when selecting a replacement crankshaft insert, keeping in mind GM also supplied engines to the Jeep Corporation for postal use:
Model Year Drive Model Part # View
1977-81 RWD Postal Jeep J3237088 D 1977-81 RWD Postal Jeep 33004041 E 1977-91 RWD Buick, Olds, Pont, Chevy 10007202 A 1978-93 FWD Buick, Olds, Pont, Chevy 10009785 B 1982-83 RWD Camaro, Firebird w/ auto 10018699 C 1982-83 FWD w/ automatic trans 10018699 C 1982-83 FWD w/ manual transmission 10009785 B 1982-86 RWD Camaro, Firebird w/ manual 10007202 A 1984-86 FWD w/ automatic transmission 10018699 C 1984-86 RWD Fiero w/ automatic trans. 10018699 C 1984 FWD w/ manual transmission 10009785 B 1984-86 RWD Fiero w/ manual trans. 10009785 B 1984 RWD Camaro, Firebird w/ auto 10018699 C- OD 1.498, ID .827 1985-93 RWD GMC, S-10 Chevy 3752487 E 1987-93 RWD S-10 Chevy, w/ manual trans. 10032605 1987-93 RWD Buick, Olds, Pont, Chevy 10007202 A
It is recommended to inspect all crankshafts to ensure that the proper insert is installed to match the desired application. AERA is currently aware of several aftermarket suppliers for some of the above mentioned inserts.
The AERA Technical Committee
[This message has been edited by FrugalFiero (edited 11-16-2008).]
Crankshaft Flange Inserts on GM 2.5L (151 CID) Engines
General Motors Corporation uses 3 different crankshaft inserts on their 2.5L (151 CID) engines.
These steel crankshaft inserts are pressed into the tail end of the crankshaft and provide support for a pilot bushing on vehicles with manual transmissions or directly support the nose cone of the torque converter on vehicles with automatic transmissions.
Use the following chart and diagrams when selecting a replacement crankshaft or steel crankshaft insert:
Model Year Drive Model Part #
1979-80 RWD all 10007202 1980-81 FWD all 10009785 1982-83 RWD Camaro, Firebird w/ auto 10018699 1982-83 FWD all 10018699 1982-83 FWD w/ manual trans 10009785 1982-84 RWD Camaro, Firebird w/ manual 10007202 1984 FWD w/ auto trans 10018699 1984 RWD Fiero w/ auto trans.10018699 1984 FWD w/ manual transmission 10009785 1984 RWD Fiero w/ manual trans. 10009785 1984 RWD Camaro, Firebird w/auto 10018699
* w/ auto = vehicle with automatic transmission w/ manual trans. = vehicle with manual transmission
It is recommended to inspect all crankshafts to ensure that the proper insert is installed to match the desired application.
Crankshaft Pilot Bushing Update On 1979-93 GM 2.5L Engines
The AERA Technical Committee offers the following information regarding an update on crankshaft pilot bushings for 1977-93 GM 2.5L engines. Previously, AERA published Technical Bulletin TB 477R. The information in this bulletin is to be used in addition to that bulletin. GM has used six unique crankshaft pilot bushing inserts for their different 2.5L engine applications.
These inserts are pressed into the rear of the crankshaft and provide support for either the input shaft of a standard transmission or direct support of the torque converter hub of an automatic transmission. Use the following chart and diagrams when selecting a replacement crankshaft insert, keeping in mind GM also supplied engines to the Jeep Corporation for postal use:
Model Year Drive Model Part # View
1977-81 RWD Postal Jeep J3237088 D 1977-81 RWD Postal Jeep 33004041 E 1977-91 RWD Buick, Olds, Pont, Chevy 10007202 A 1978-93 FWD Buick, Olds, Pont, Chevy 10009785 B 1982-83 RWD Camaro, Firebird w/ auto 10018699 C 1982-83 FWD w/ automatic trans 10018699 C 1982-83 FWD w/ manual transmission 10009785 B 1982-86 RWD Camaro, Firebird w/ manual 10007202 A 1984-86 FWD w/ automatic transmission 10018699 C 1984-86 RWD Fiero w/ automatic trans. 10018699 C 1984 FWD w/ manual transmission 10009785 B 1984-86 RWD Fiero w/ manual trans. 10009785 B 1984 RWD Camaro, Firebird w/ auto 10018699 C- OD 1.498, ID .827 1985-93 RWD GMC, S-10 Chevy 3752487 E 1987-93 RWD S-10 Chevy, w/ manual trans. 10032605 1987-93 RWD Buick, Olds, Pont, Chevy 10007202 A
It is recommended to inspect all crankshafts to ensure that the proper insert is installed to match the desired application. AERA is currently aware of several aftermarket suppliers for some of the above mentioned inserts.
Wrong information is telling someone that GM didnt install them
Bill,
I know someone else who found a pilot bushing that he believed was installed at the factory on his 84 SE. I have had more than a few V6 4-spd cars and none of them had a pilot bushing. I always found this discrepancy rather interesting.
I think what would help here is if someone could take some measurements to show if the input shaft on the transmission would in fact contact a pilot bushing or not.
I don't have an isuzu 5-spd nor an Iron duke so I can't really add much directly but I do have a Muncie 4-spd (V-6 version) and the input shaft on it extends ~.15" past the bellhousing face. It also has ~.4" of bearing surface for a pilot bushing after an ~.1" chamfer. From the look of it I think that is probably 3-4 times the bearing surface present on the input shaft in your picture. If I ever get my V6 pulled from my car I will take measurements from it to see if the input shaft extends far enough to insert itself into a pilot bushing if it was present.
Originally posted by Jefrysuko: I do have a Muncie 4-spd (V-6 version) and the input shaft on it extends ~.15" past the bellhousing face. It also has ~.4" of bearing surface for a pilot bushing after an ~.1" chamfer.
The bushing in my previous engine stuck out from the back of the crank at least .250 if not more. The crank is nearly flush with the trans boss so that would mean they are very very close to one another.
quote
From the look of it I think that is probably 3-4 times the bearing surface present on the input shaft in your picture. If I ever get my V6 pulled from my car I will take measurements from it to see if the input shaft extends far enough to insert itself into a pilot bushing if it was present.
This picture is of the top looking from the rear forward (between the lower most and second from the bottom bolts) of the bell housing that is split completely apart and separated by no less than 1.5 to 2 inches. The red circle is the lower block boss (lower mount bolt) that was broken off the block and still has a 6 inch piece of the bell housing attached to it. You can see the nose of the starter lower part of the picture just above and to the left of the circle. The engine itself is pushed toward the firewall a few inches and the trans is leaning off to the left side of the cradle. Both mounts are bent over to the left as well and the dog bone is not aligned so the engine is actually twisted clockwise on the front mount.
Looking at this it appears the flywheel came off (for whatever reason) and on the way out wedged under the trans between the ground causing the engine and trans to completely separate. The ass end literally lept into the air. It bounced back and forth in the engine compartment between the cradle and the trans which is why the CV joint is completely gone. It eventually came out when I turned a corner and rolled into the median.
[This message has been edited by 84Bill (edited 11-16-2008).]
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10:31 PM
Patrick Member
Posts: 37650 From: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada Registered: Apr 99
Sure some on here may have said you don't need a bushing but it seems to me you knew your old engine had a bushing and you chose not to install one anyway. At the end of the day what you do is your decision.
I feel your pain, those pics don't show a pretty sight but it's been my experience that pretty much everyone on here tries to give the best advice they can. However, like most things on the web it's worth what you paid for it (no offense chaps, I still value your input) and no matter how well meaning, in the end the responsibility for whatever you do to your car and what happens as a result is down to you.
It looks to me like you're looking for someone to blame, have you looked in a mirror lately? But yes, I am truly sorry your tranny/motor grenaded itself.
Anyway just my worthless $0.02 worth, not that it's worth that much
Originally posted by ltlfrari: Sure some on here may have said you don't need a bushing but it seems to me you knew your old engine had a bushing and you chose not to install one anyway. At the end of the day what you do is your decision.
Well you are exactly right but as demonstrated some opinions are rather firm and dont dare argue even WHEN YOU KNOW you are right.. that way some poor slob comes along and does a search they can get GOOD advice or in my case confirmation.
I rarely ask for technical advice and this is a perfect example of why. When I do KNOW something I usually say something but apparently my advice aint worth a damn.
But if I save ONE person from going through what I am going through then it is worth every penny of my .0002 cents.
I AM NOT trying to shift the onus onto anyone I'm just ADVISING anyone who has a question about installing a PILOT BUSHING to just go ahead and PUT IT IN. Unfortunatly I have to argue with people who think that it is "useless" or that GM "never installed them" when that is an outright false statement.
quote
These inserts are pressed into the rear of the crankshaft and provide support for either the input shaft of a standard transmission or direct support of the torque converter hub of an automatic transmission. Use the following chart and diagrams when selecting a replacement crankshaft insert, keeping in mind GM also supplied engines to the Jeep Corporation for postal use:
Model Year Drive Model Part # View
1977-81 RWD Postal Jeep J3237088 D 1977-81 RWD Postal Jeep 33004041 E 1977-91 RWD Buick, Olds, Pont, Chevy 10007202 A 1978-93 FWD Buick, Olds, Pont, Chevy 10009785 B 1982-83 RWD Camaro, Firebird w/ auto 10018699 C 1982-83 FWD w/ automatic trans 10018699 C 1982-83 FWD w/ manual transmission 10009785 B 1982-86 RWD Camaro, Firebird w/ manual 10007202 A 1984-86 FWD w/ automatic transmission 10018699 C 1984-86 RWD Fiero w/ automatic trans. 10018699 C 1984 FWD w/ manual transmission 10009785 B 1984-86 RWD Fiero w/ manual trans. 10009785 B 1984 RWD Camaro, Firebird w/ auto 10018699 C- OD 1.498, ID .827 1985-93 RWD GMC, S-10 Chevy 3752487 E 1987-93 RWD S-10 Chevy, w/ manual trans. 10032605 1987-93 RWD Buick, Olds, Pont, Chevy 10007202 A
It is recommended to inspect all crankshafts to ensure that the proper insert is installed to match the desired application. AERA is currently aware of several aftermarket suppliers for some of the above mentioned inserts.
Fierostore 84-88 4cyl CLUTCH PILOT BUSHING This new pilot bushing installs in the end of the crankshaft on 4cyl standard transmission Fieros. Part #69785 Price:$14.95 CLICK HERE
Get one and remove all doubt.
[This message has been edited by 84Bill (edited 11-17-2008).]
I know I said I wouldn't post again, cal me a liar if you wish. I am however, done talking about pilot bushings.
Serious question, do you think the clutch disk failed, which in turn caused the flywheel to come off? If so, you may have it backwards. Do you think it's possible the flywheel came off, which in turn caused the rest of the damage?
We just did the clutch on my 86 GT, and it was original, 4 speed. There was and is no pilot bushing. My son has an 84 Duke, 5 speed and he changed his clutch last year. No pilot there either.
[This message has been edited by weaselbeak (edited 11-17-2008).]
I know I said I wouldn't post again, cal me a liar if you wish. I am however, done talking about pilot bushings.
Serious question, do you think the clutch disk failed, which in turn caused the flywheel to come off? If so, you may have it backwards. Do you think it's possible the flywheel came off, which in turn caused the rest of the damage?
That's exactly what I was thinking too. In this forum I've seen clutch explosions but even then the flywheel didn't actually come off. For whatever reason, looks like the flywheel bolts failed.
Mike
IP: Logged
02:27 AM
GT86 Member
Posts: 5203 From: Glendale, AZ Registered: Mar 2003
That's exactly what I was thinking too. In this forum I've seen clutch explosions but even then the flywheel didn't actually come off. For whatever reason, looks like the flywheel bolts failed.
Mike
My thoughts as well. There's not much meat to a clutch disc, at least not enough to cause that amount of damage. But if the flywheel bolts failed, the flywheel has more than enough mass to cause that.
Bill, did you re-use the old bolts when you put the new flywheel in? If not, were the new ones the right strength rating, and/or were they torqued properly? Like I said, your theory seems to be that the disc somehow got off center, came apart, and caused that mess. I just don't see a failed disc doing that much damage. But a flywheel would, and if it was fastened by weak or improperly tightened bolts it could easily come of. All the more so since you had over-revved the engine by missing third.
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02:47 AM
86GT3.4DOHC Member
Posts: 10007 From: Marion Ohio Registered: Apr 2004
True, I would be interested to see if all the flywheel bolts were in there at the time of failre. If any hole doesnt have either half a bolt, or ripped out threads, there was no bolt there when the flywheel came off. Though im not sure if there is enough room for the bolt to fall all the way out, it should be noticable if something was wrong. It would take the loss of more than one bolt for this to happen though, unless they all failed catastrphically, but lets face it, the duke doesnt really have the power to sheer 6 bolts clean off.
That about has to be it, either the input shaft bearing exploded, or something bad had to happen with the flywheel, if the clutch came apart, it woudl just spin or at worst jamn, theres no way it would cause enough damage to take off the flywheel, and the pressure plate would have slipped had it started coming off the flywheel. Even then, the only way I see the flywheel coming off is if there were some gigantic force between it and the crankshaft itself, I dont see any reasonable failure causing that, youd think the tires would just lock up if it came to that.
I've never worked with a 4cyl, but thinking about it now, common sense says, if the input shaft doesnt reach the V6 crank, and the tranny is the same V6 or 4, then either there would have to be a long protrusion to catch the input shaft, or its or the bushing is irrelevant. Possibly just a hold over from RWD setups. To be honest, im not sure Ive ever actually seen a FWD tranny use a pilot busing... and I know Ive never seen a FWD Firebird, where did that list above come from?!?
[This message has been edited by 86GT3.4DOHC (edited 11-17-2008).]
IP: Logged
03:09 AM
tjm4fun Member
Posts: 3781 From: Long Island, NY USA Registered: Feb 2006
Be careful there. first off, you have the oldest model isuzu tranny, no re-enforcing casting. (smooth tranny case) All years after that I believe switched to the newer style. Tho the same transmission, it was redesigned and the case strengthened by the addition of the ribbing, I think to handle the power for the v6. the v6 absolutely positively DOES NOT use a pilot bearing. Now the P22 cd shows it only for the 84,but again, you dont have enough bearing surface showing in that pic you posted for a pilot bearing to mount to. if you check that post you highlighted, the 86 isuzu does not use one, there is no bearing surface. Plus the ones all those parts books show are wrong anyway, they do not even fit over that small blank end of the later tranny. If the tranny needed a pilot bearing, it would make alot of noise while the clutch is engaged, you would notice it. had some go bad on rwd, and wear out, and it is impossible to miss that sound.
As to your explosion, I would check the tranny and differrential gears, you may have grenaded a gear and locked the tranny, and the clutch is the secondary failure of the over revved motor suddenly getting stopped. that would also explain the torqing foward of the engine and tranny, and the cv failure. I've grenanded a regular rwd diff and had it lock, and it sprung the cast iron housing, cracked the universal joints, sheared the carrier bearing shafts off the ham in the diff. the mighty duke does not have the torque for all the damage you stated, but locking the rear wheels of a moving car does, and the engines inertia took care of the clutch/flywheel. Just for your own peace of mind, CAREFULLY inspect the gearing in the tranny (since the case is conveniently opened for you anyway) I'll bet you find some shattered gears, and knicks/gouges on other gear teeth. if you find that, then you likely found the real failure. Especially check the large ring gear on the diff, a piece of shattered gear in there will lock the tranny. from what I heard, the 84 tranny tends to look like that when it fails, I think it was the overrev scenario that matched up with that caused the clutch/flywheel failure.
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03:23 AM
GT86 Member
Posts: 5203 From: Glendale, AZ Registered: Mar 2003
True, I would be interested to see if all the flywheel bolts were in there at the time of failre. If any hole doesnt have either half a bolt, or ripped out threads, there was no bolt there when the flywheel came off. Though im not sure if there is enough room for the bolt to fall all the way out, it should be noticable if something was wrong. It would take the loss of more than one bolt for this to happen though, unless they all failed catastrphically, but lets face it, the duke doesnt really have the power to sheer 6 bolts clean off.
The loss of one bolt wouldn't cause the flywheel to come off, but if weak/improperly torqued bolts were used they could have been failing for awhile, and one or more could have broken or loosened before this. The over-revving then would simply be the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back, and off came the flywheel.
quote
Originally posted by tjm4fun: As to your explosion, I would check the tranny and differrential gears, you may have grenaded a gear and locked the tranny, and the clutch is the secondary failure of the over revved motor suddenly getting stopped. that would also explain the torqing foward of the engine and tranny, and the cv failure. I've grenanded a regular rwd diff and had it lock, and it sprung the cast iron housing, cracked the universal joints, sheared the carrier bearing shafts off the ham in the diff. the mighty duke does not have the torque for all the damage you stated, but locking the rear wheels of a moving car does, and the engines inertia took care of the clutch/flywheel. Just for your own peace of mind, CAREFULLY inspect the gearing in the tranny (since the case is conveniently opened for you anyway) I'll bet you find some shattered gears, and knicks/gouges on other gear teeth. if you find that, then you likely found the real failure. Especially check the large ring gear on the diff, a piece of shattered gear in there will lock the tranny. from what I heard, the 84 tranny tends to look like that when it fails, I think it was the overrev scenario that matched up with that caused the clutch/flywheel failure.
I know for a fact my 1986 GT 5spd. never had a pilot bushing.
As for the parts list, it doesn't surprise me much. Stant is well known for listing the wrong radiator cap for our cars and RockAuto lists the .67 cent foam filter for our cruise control solenoid, AC Delco 219-13, as a "Supercharger". Perry Rhodan found that gem of mis-info. Lots of incorrect information out there about our cars.
Mike
IP: Logged
03:39 AM
GT86 Member
Posts: 5203 From: Glendale, AZ Registered: Mar 2003
As for the parts list, it doesn't surprise me much. Stant is well known for listing the wrong radiator cap for our cars and RockAuto lists the .67 cent foam filter for our cruise control solenoid, AC Delco 219-13, as a "Supercharger". Perry Rhodan found that gem of mis-info. Lots of incorrect information out there about our cars.
Mike
I didn't look too much at the list, but it's likely just all of the vehicles the 2.5 was used in.
I didn't look too much at the list, but it's likely just all of the vehicles the 2.5 was used in.
To be honest, I didn't look at it too much either. I see now they do list a pilot bushing for a "1984-86 RWD Fiero w/ manual trans." and I know that is wrong. AFAIK I did the 1st clutch change on my '86 GT and checked for a bushing, there wasn't one. It ran 165,000 miles that way before I rebuilt everything, nothing shattered, just worn out.
Mike
[This message has been edited by Nosferatu187 (edited 11-17-2008).]
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04:30 AM
kyote Member
Posts: 1232 From: Germantown, Wisconsin - Metro Milwaukee Area Registered: Sep 2001
This picture is of the top looking from the rear forward
I'm no engineer, do not claim to be one.. and have never slept at a Holiday Inn Express. But by looking at your photo...I have a question or two..
No.1 Did any of the tranny shaft break off at all?? No.2 If not.... How is the pilot bushing supposed to be supported on that shaft in the first place.?? There isn't enough shaft length to support a bearing. No.3 How do you know that your engine has not been replaced before you purchased it? ( assuming you are not the original owner that is..) Could the possibility exist that it was not in OEM condition before you purchased it?
I replaced my engine and tranny...and clutch on my 86 V-6 Manual and this I can say, There isn't room in the end of the crankshaft boss to insert a bushing.
------------------ '86 Fastback SE 5 spd -'94 HD Electra Glide Cassic -'99 Chevy K-1500 Z-71
[This message has been edited by kyote (edited 11-17-2008).]
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07:31 AM
PFF
System Bot
Fierobsessed Member
Posts: 4782 From: Las Vegas, NV Registered: Dec 2001
I say, the flywheel bolts failed. It looks like they snapped first, and the flywheel tried to make an exit smashing everything in its path. The disk, still mounted to the input shaft took a beating by the exiting flywheel. I don't believe any catastrophic failure of a clutch could cause the flywheel bolts to shear.
Properly torqued, Flywheel bolts NEVER see any shearing type load, the clamping surfaces handle that (unless of course, the engine is really powerful.) Over torqued, they get tensile breakage. Under torqued they get beat to death by off and on shearing load in two directions on the shaft of the bolt. (load of acceleration in one direction and load from downshifting in the other.)
It just seems to look like the bolts are the root cause. I'd love to see what the remainder of the head side looks like if you still got them. Just to see if they were a tensile breakage, an instant shear, or a long term beating, leading to a shear.
Originally posted by GT86: Serious question, do you think the clutch disk failed, which in turn caused the flywheel to come off? If so, you may have it backwards. Do you think it's possible the flywheel came off, which in turn caused the rest of the damage?
Oh there's no doubt the disk failed and the most likely reason it failed is because it was not properly supported at the front with a pilot bushing.... you do realize that is the primary purpose of a pilot bushing dont you?
These inserts are pressed into the rear of the (GM 2.5 )crankshaft and PROVIDE SUPPORT FOR either THE INPUT SHAFT of a standard transmission or direct support of the torque converter hub of an automatic transmission.
I'm not a rocket scientist and it doesn't require a degree in rocket science to understand the purpose of certain parts. Excessive wobble will cause the disk to fail, (the disk can get as far as a half inch off center or more) a pilot bushing would have keept it from doing so or at the very least limited it significantly.
I don't know why you continue to look for fault with the engineers designs or try to mitigate the damage done by saying that's not why the flywheel came out. It did and that's an undeniable fact. I strongly suspect the reason it did was because the clutch got out of line causing an imbalance which caused the flywheel to part company due to excessive stress from the imbalance.
quote
These inserts are pressed into the rear of the crankshaft and provide support for either the input shaft of a standard transmission or direct support of the torque converter hub of an automatic transmission. Use the following chart and diagrams when selecting a replacement crankshaft insert, keeping in mind GM also supplied engines to the Jeep Corporation for postal use:
Model Year Drive Model Part # View
1977-81 RWD Postal Jeep J3237088 D 1977-81 RWD Postal Jeep 33004041 E 1977-91 RWD Buick, Olds, Pont, Chevy 10007202 A 1978-93 FWD Buick, Olds, Pont, Chevy 10009785 B 1982-83 RWD Camaro, Firebird w/ auto 10018699 C 1982-83 FWD w/ automatic trans 10018699 C 1982-83 FWD w/ manual transmission 10009785 B 1982-86 RWD Camaro, Firebird w/ manual 10007202 A 1984-86 FWD w/ automatic transmission 10018699 C 1984-86 RWD Fiero w/ automatic trans. 10018699 C 1984 FWD w/ manual transmission 10009785 B 1984-86 RWD Fiero w/ manual trans. 10009785 B 1984 RWD Camaro, Firebird w/ auto 10018699 C- OD 1.498, ID .827 1985-93 RWD GMC, S-10 Chevy 3752487 E 1987-93 RWD S-10 Chevy, w/ manual trans. 10032605 1987-93 RWD Buick, Olds, Pont, Chevy 10007202 A
It is recommended to inspect all crankshafts to ensure that the proper insert is installed to match the desired application. AERA is currently aware of several aftermarket suppliers for some of the above mentioned inserts.
Fierostore 84-88 4cyl CLUTCH PILOT BUSHING This new pilot bushing installs in the end of the crankshaft on 4cyl standard transmission Fieros. Part #69785 Price:$14.95 CLICK HERE
Get one and remove all doubt.
[This message has been edited by 84Bill (edited 11-17-2008).]
Originally posted by kyote: No.1 Did any of the tranny shaft break off at all??
No but the support for the TO bearing is destroyed.
quote
No.2 If not.... How is the pilot bushing supposed to be supported on that shaft in the first place.?? There isn't enough shaft length to support a bearing.
That is an assumption. That's EXACTLY why I didn't put one in... the "experts" on this forum said the same thing. They said, "There isn't enough shaft length to support a bearing." so I left the bushing out.
However, it now appears that IT DOES reach the bushing and IT DOES support the input shaft. These inserts are pressed into the rear of the (GM 2.5 )crankshaft and provide support for either the input shaft of a standard transmission or direct support of the torque converter hub of an automatic transmission.
quote
No.3 How do you know that your engine has not been replaced before you purchased it? ( assuming you are not the original owner that is..) Could the possibility exist that it was not in OEM condition before you purchased it?
Sure however the fact remains that even my 84 FSM calls for a pilot bushing. Unfortunately I dont have an 88 FSM but I can garan god dam T it does too.
quote
I replaced my engine and tranny...and clutch on my 86 V-6 Manual and this I can say, There isn't room in the end of the crankshaft boss to insert a bushing.
There is in an 88 2.5 as well as the 84 and the book calls for one... that I DO KNOW.
Originally posted by tjm4fun: Be careful there. first off, you have the oldest model isuzu tranny, no re-enforcing casting. (smooth tranny case) All years after that I believe switched to the newer style. T
So you mean the last year they built the fiero... in 1988 they were still using the "oldest model isuzu" transmissions?
Seriously did you read the part where I mentioned this was an 88? I guess when they replaced the OEM engine with one that had a busing they could have put in an older isuzu as well... but I doubt it.
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08:37 AM
86GT3.4DOHC Member
Posts: 10007 From: Marion Ohio Registered: Apr 2004
I think the point is, if you look at that pic you posted, there clearly isnt enough tip on the shaft to engage the bushing.
Also, the transmission is internally supported, regardless of what is on the outside, there is no way the shaft could move more than 1/16th of an inch under normal circumstances, and it definitely couldnt move enough to cause any problems unless the bearing completely came apart, which would leave ball bearings in the gears at that. Actually, I think 1/16th is very giving.
And the flywheel isnt coming off the engine unless you put an incredible amount of force to it, more than I would think you could get in there. My first impression is the flywheel came off, starting the damage.
[This message has been edited by 86GT3.4DOHC (edited 11-17-2008).]
Originally posted by 86GT3.4DOHC: True, I would be interested to see if all the flywheel bolts were in there at the time of failre.
All bolts were installed and torqued to spec. I dont mess around with stuff like this...
I had a dodge Aries K with a 2.5 that had a lose flexplate when I bought it and it sounded like a diesel engine... my new 2.5 purred like a kitten.
A clutch plate that is off center WILL cause an imbalance, that imbalance will cause stress on the flywheel. The purpose of the bushing is to SUPPORT THE INPUT SHAFT to prevent the clutch dish from going OFF CENTER causing excessive vibrations... The engineers INSTALLED a pilot bushing to PREVENT this sort of failure from occurring.
Since I had NO bushing TO SUPPORT THE INPUT SHAFT it would be PRUDENT to just go ahead and spend the 14.95 and put one in.
Originally posted by 86GT3.4DOHC: I think the point is, if you look at that pic you posted, there clearly isnt enough tip on the shaft to engage the bushing.
Yes... clearly
The transmission bell housing is cracked COMPLETELY IN HALF and separated by almost if not more than TWO INCHES. so ya... there surly is a good bit of air between them.
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09:04 AM
LFiero67 Member
Posts: 880 From: Lethbridge, Alberta, Canada Registered: Jun 2002
Sounds like you down shifted at speed to 1st, broke the flywheel bolts off, causing massive damage, and now are blaming the forum for your mistake. If you downshift to first at hiway speed, that puts huge stresses on your drivetrain. Pilot bushing or not, that would probably have happened.
By the way, I put 250+ HP through a 4 speed for a year with no pilot bushing, down shifting during braking and running it hard. Never had anything like that happen, but the diff finally gave out. I have changed several 4 cylinder clutches on Fieros and have yet to see a single one with a pilot bushing.
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09:12 AM
GT86 Member
Posts: 5203 From: Glendale, AZ Registered: Mar 2003
Oh there's no doubt the disk failed and the most likely reason it failed is because it was not properly supported at the front with a pilot bushing.... you do realize that is the primary purpose of a pilot bushing dont you?
These inserts are pressed into the rear of the (GM 2.5 )crankshaft and PROVIDE SUPPORT FOR either THE INPUT SHAFT of a standard transmission or direct support of the torque converter hub of an automatic transmission.
I'm not a rocket scientist and it doesn't require a degree in rocket science to understand the purpose of certain parts. Excessive wobble will cause the disk to fail, (the disk can get as far as a half inch off center or more) a pilot bushing would have keept it from doing so or at the very least limited it significantly.
I don't know why you continue to look for fault with the engineers designs or try to mitigate the damage done by saying that's not why the flywheel came out. It did and that's an undeniable fact. I strongly suspect the reason it did was because the clutch got out of line causing an imbalance which caused the flywheel to part company due to excessive stress from the imbalance.
How would the failure of the clutch disc cause the flywheel to come off?
Originally posted by LFiero67: Sounds like you down shifted at speed to 1st, broke the flywheel bolts off, causing massive damage, and now are blaming the forum for your mistake. If you downshift to first at hiway speed, that puts huge stresses on your drivetrain. Pilot bushing or not, that would probably have happened.
1) I am blaming no one but myself for NOT installing a 14.95 bushing.
2) I am however going to stand very firm AGAINST anyone who says that the bushing is not needed OR was "never installed in FWD GM products... IT WAS.
The engineers INSTALLED a pilot bushing to support the input shaft... all you need to do is ask WHY they decided to put one in. I can tell you why.. to keep the clutch disk centered and prevent it from putting high stress loads on the flywheel. That is WHY a pilot bushing is used, it is the main purpose, it is not installed just to make the engine turn higher RPM or give it more HP, its purpose is very clear. TO SUPPORT THE END OF THE INPUT SHAFT
Why are you people arguing that this is not the purpose of the bushing or that NOT installing one is a "good idea"? I mean WTF
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By the way, I put 250+ HP through a 4 speed for a year with no pilot bushing, down shifting during braking and running it hard. Never had anything like that happen, but the diff finally gave out. I have changed several 4 cylinder clutches on Fieros and have yet to see a single one with a pilot bushing.
My differential is intact... the flywheel destroyed the case when it came out.
INSTALL A PILOT BUSHING.. they cost 14.95 each and THEY SUPPORT THE END OF THE INPUT SHAFT which holds a spinning mass... when that spinning mass goes off center the potential to cause a catastrophic failure of your crank shaft bolts increases significantly.
[This message has been edited by 84Bill (edited 11-17-2008).]
Originally posted by GT86: You're still looking at it backwards. The clutch disc was not the starting point for all of this.
It obviously was since there was no PILOT BUSING to support the clutch disk and keep it from going off center... I AM done arguing with your nonsense and trash talk.
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These inserts are pressed into the rear of the crankshaft and provide support for either the input shaft of a standard transmission or direct support of the torque converter hub of an automatic transmission. Use the following chart and diagrams when selecting a replacement crankshaft insert, keeping in mind GM also supplied engines to the Jeep Corporation for postal use:
Model Year Drive Model Part # View
1977-81 RWD Postal Jeep J3237088 D 1977-81 RWD Postal Jeep 33004041 E 1977-91 RWD Buick, Olds, Pont, Chevy 10007202 A 1978-93 FWD Buick, Olds, Pont, Chevy 10009785 B 1982-83 RWD Camaro, Firebird w/ auto 10018699 C 1982-83 FWD w/ automatic trans 10018699 C 1982-83 FWD w/ manual transmission 10009785 B 1982-86 RWD Camaro, Firebird w/ manual 10007202 A 1984-86 FWD w/ automatic transmission 10018699 C 1984-86 RWD Fiero w/ automatic trans. 10018699 C 1984 FWD w/ manual transmission 10009785 B 1984-86 RWD Fiero w/ manual trans. 10009785 B 1984 RWD Camaro, Firebird w/ auto 10018699 C- OD 1.498, ID .827 1985-93 RWD GMC, S-10 Chevy 3752487 E 1987-93 RWD S-10 Chevy, w/ manual trans. 10032605 1987-93 RWD Buick, Olds, Pont, Chevy 10007202 A
It is recommended to inspect all crankshafts to ensure that the proper insert is installed to match the desired application. AERA is currently aware of several aftermarket suppliers for some of the above mentioned inserts.
Fierostore 84-88 4cyl CLUTCH PILOT BUSHING This new pilot bushing installs in the end of the crankshaft on 4cyl standard transmission Fieros. Part #69785 Price:$14.95 CLICK HERE
Get one and remove all doubt. I know I sure as effing hell will.
[This message has been edited by 84Bill (edited 11-17-2008).]
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09:54 AM
GT86 Member
Posts: 5203 From: Glendale, AZ Registered: Mar 2003
Originally posted by 84Bill: It obviously was since there was no PILOT BUSING to support the clutch disk and keep it from going off center... I AM done arguing with your nonsense and trash talk.
OK, but you might want to figure out why your flywheel bolts failed.
How much play is there in your input shaft, even now with the state the tranny is in?
Tell ya what, Bill, go blow the 15 bucks and quit telling me I should do the same when it comes up. But don't come back whining when it DOESN'T fit on the transmission shaft. Not that it matters, the shaft won't get there anyhow.
Originally posted by GT86: OK, but you might want to figure out why your flywheel bolts failed.
How much play is there in your input shaft, even now with the state the tranny is in?
It doesnt matter... there was no busing TO SUPPORT THE INPUT SHAFT and keep the clutch disk from going off center and causing excessive vibrations which could result in a catastrophic failure of the crankshaft bolts.
TAKE MY ADVICE... It would be PRUDENT to install one.
quote
These inserts are pressed into the rear of the crankshaft and provide support for either the input shaft of a standard transmission or direct support of the torque converter hub of an automatic transmission. Use the following chart and diagrams when selecting a replacement crankshaft insert, keeping in mind GM also supplied engines to the Jeep Corporation for postal use:
Model Year Drive Model Part # View
1977-81 RWD Postal Jeep J3237088 D 1977-81 RWD Postal Jeep 33004041 E 1977-91 RWD Buick, Olds, Pont, Chevy 10007202 A 1978-93 FWD Buick, Olds, Pont, Chevy 10009785 B 1982-83 RWD Camaro, Firebird w/ auto 10018699 C 1982-83 FWD w/ automatic trans 10018699 C 1982-83 FWD w/ manual transmission 10009785 B 1982-86 RWD Camaro, Firebird w/ manual 10007202 A 1984-86 FWD w/ automatic transmission 10018699 C 1984-86 RWD Fiero w/ automatic trans. 10018699 C 1984 FWD w/ manual transmission 10009785 B 1984-86 RWD Fiero w/ manual trans. 10009785 B 1984 RWD Camaro, Firebird w/ auto 10018699 C- OD 1.498, ID .827 1985-93 RWD GMC, S-10 Chevy 3752487 E 1987-93 RWD S-10 Chevy, w/ manual trans. 10032605 1987-93 RWD Buick, Olds, Pont, Chevy 10007202 A
It is recommended to inspect all crankshafts to ensure that the proper insert is installed to match the desired application. AERA is currently aware of several aftermarket suppliers for some of the above mentioned inserts.
Fierostore 84-88 4cyl CLUTCH PILOT BUSHING This new pilot bushing installs in the end of the crankshaft on 4cyl standard transmission Fieros. Part #69785 Price:$14.95 CLICK HERE
Tell ya what, Bill, go blow the 15 bucks and quit telling me I should do the same when it comes up. But don't come back whining when it DOESN'T fit on the transmission shaft. Not that it matters, the shaft won't get there anyhow.
I would not be here arguing against those who said it was not needed had I installed one and this occurred.
14.95... spend it or dont.. I took advice and didnt spend it.. now I will argue against ANYONE who says it is not worth it.
quote
These inserts are pressed into the rear of the crankshaft and provide support for either the input shaft of a standard transmission or direct support of the torque converter hub of an automatic transmission. Use the following chart and diagrams when selecting a replacement crankshaft insert, keeping in mind GM also supplied engines to the Jeep Corporation for postal use:
Model Year Drive Model Part # View
1977-81 RWD Postal Jeep J3237088 D 1977-81 RWD Postal Jeep 33004041 E 1977-91 RWD Buick, Olds, Pont, Chevy 10007202 A 1978-93 FWD Buick, Olds, Pont, Chevy 10009785 B 1982-83 RWD Camaro, Firebird w/ auto 10018699 C 1982-83 FWD w/ automatic trans 10018699 C 1982-83 FWD w/ manual transmission 10009785 B 1982-86 RWD Camaro, Firebird w/ manual 10007202 A 1984-86 FWD w/ automatic transmission 10018699 C 1984-86 RWD Fiero w/ automatic trans. 10018699 C 1984 FWD w/ manual transmission 10009785 B 1984-86 RWD Fiero w/ manual trans. 10009785 B 1984 RWD Camaro, Firebird w/ auto 10018699 C- OD 1.498, ID .827 1985-93 RWD GMC, S-10 Chevy 3752487 E 1987-93 RWD S-10 Chevy, w/ manual trans. 10032605 1987-93 RWD Buick, Olds, Pont, Chevy 10007202 A
It is recommended to inspect all crankshafts to ensure that the proper insert is installed to match the desired application. AERA is currently aware of several aftermarket suppliers for some of the above mentioned inserts.
Fierostore 84-88 4cyl CLUTCH PILOT BUSHING This new pilot bushing installs in the end of the crankshaft on 4cyl standard transmission Fieros. Part #69785 Price:$14.95 CLICK HERE
Get one and remove all doubt.
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10:04 AM
GT86 Member
Posts: 5203 From: Glendale, AZ Registered: Mar 2003
Originally posted by 84Bill: It doesnt matter... there was no busing TO SUPPORT THE INPUT SHAFT and keep the clutch disk from going off center and causing excessive vibrations which could result in a catastrophic failure of the crankshaft bolts.
OK, let's pretend your theory has validity. You say the disc was "off center". How would the clutch disc go "off center"? Since it rides on the input shaft splines, the input shaft would have to be wobbling around, right? So how much wobble is there on your input shaft?
Part number listing from the 84-88 P Fiero 22P microfiche: It would appear the words "insert" and "pilot bushing" are one in the same. The part numbers are in line with the earlier listing I posted, except it includes 87-88.
84-87 P Engine Asm - 2.5 L4 (LR8/2.5R)
Spacer, Flywheel to Crankshaft - 10005655 Insert, Cr/Shf - 10018699
88 P Engine Asm. - 2.5 L4 (LR8/2.5R)
Spacer, Flywheel to Crankshaft - 10005655 Insert, Cr/Shf (W / M.T.) - 10009785 Insert, Cr/Shf (W / A.T.) - 10018699
No insert or pilot bushings are listed for any year V6.
After working on stuff for 30+ years myself, I would tend to believe the guy who has actually been in there countless times (aka Archie as an example) over what is in the parts list. I myself have never dealt with a manual tranny that didn't make use of a pilot bushing, and the tip of the input shafts I have dealt with were much longer than the one in 84Bill's picture.
[This message has been edited by FrugalFiero (edited 11-17-2008).]
Perry Rhodan found that gem of mis-info. Lots of incorrect information out there about our cars.
