Originally posted by GT86: How would the clutch disc go "off center"? Since it rides on the input shaft splines, the input shaft would have to be wobbling around, right? So how much wobble is there on your input shaft?
Evidently enough to cause the bolts of my flywheel to snap like matchsticks.
One thing I can tell you is..
The purpose of the pilot bushing is to keep the clutch disk centered.
quote
These inserts are pressed into the rear of the crankshaft and provide support for either the input shaft of a standard transmission or direct support of the torque converter hub of an automatic transmission. Use the following chart and diagrams when selecting a replacement crankshaft insert, keeping in mind GM also supplied engines to the Jeep Corporation for postal use:
Model Year Drive Model Part # View
1977-81 RWD Postal Jeep J3237088 D 1977-81 RWD Postal Jeep 33004041 E 1977-91 RWD Buick, Olds, Pont, Chevy 10007202 A 1978-93 FWD Buick, Olds, Pont, Chevy 10009785 B 1982-83 RWD Camaro, Firebird w/ auto 10018699 C 1982-83 FWD w/ automatic trans 10018699 C 1982-83 FWD w/ manual transmission 10009785 B 1982-86 RWD Camaro, Firebird w/ manual 10007202 A 1984-86 FWD w/ automatic transmission 10018699 C 1984-86 RWD Fiero w/ automatic trans. 10018699 C 1984 FWD w/ manual transmission 10009785 B 1984-86 RWD Fiero w/ manual trans. 10009785 B 1984 RWD Camaro, Firebird w/ auto 10018699 C- OD 1.498, ID .827 1985-93 RWD GMC, S-10 Chevy 3752487 E 1987-93 RWD S-10 Chevy, w/ manual trans. 10032605 1987-93 RWD Buick, Olds, Pont, Chevy 10007202 A
It is recommended to inspect all crankshafts to ensure that the proper insert is installed to match the desired application. AERA is currently aware of several aftermarket suppliers for some of the above mentioned inserts.
Fierostore 84-88 4cyl CLUTCH PILOT BUSHING This new pilot bushing installs in the end of the crankshaft on 4cyl standard transmission Fieros. Part #69785 Price:$14.95 CLICK HERE
Get one and remove all doubt.
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10:27 AM
GT86 Member
Posts: 5203 From: Glendale, AZ Registered: Mar 2003
Why not go measure the input shaft free play and let us know?
Umm No...
Again... no pilot bushing, no support for the end of the input shaft....nothing to stop the end of the input shaft (with attached clutch disk) from going off center.... end of discussion.
quote
These inserts are pressed into the rear of the crankshaft and provide support for either the input shaft of a standard transmission or direct support of the torque converter hub of an automatic transmission. Use the following chart and diagrams when selecting a replacement crankshaft insert, keeping in mind GM also supplied engines to the Jeep Corporation for postal use:
Model Year Drive Model Part # View
1977-81 RWD Postal Jeep J3237088 D 1977-81 RWD Postal Jeep 33004041 E 1977-91 RWD Buick, Olds, Pont, Chevy 10007202 A 1978-93 FWD Buick, Olds, Pont, Chevy 10009785 B 1982-83 RWD Camaro, Firebird w/ auto 10018699 C 1982-83 FWD w/ automatic trans 10018699 C 1982-83 FWD w/ manual transmission 10009785 B 1982-86 RWD Camaro, Firebird w/ manual 10007202 A 1984-86 FWD w/ automatic transmission 10018699 C 1984-86 RWD Fiero w/ automatic trans. 10018699 C 1984 FWD w/ manual transmission 10009785 B 1984-86 RWD Fiero w/ manual trans. 10009785 B 1984 RWD Camaro, Firebird w/ auto 10018699 C- OD 1.498, ID .827 1985-93 RWD GMC, S-10 Chevy 3752487 E 1987-93 RWD S-10 Chevy, w/ manual trans. 10032605 1987-93 RWD Buick, Olds, Pont, Chevy 10007202 A
It is recommended to inspect all crankshafts to ensure that the proper insert is installed to match the desired application. AERA is currently aware of several aftermarket suppliers for some of the above mentioned inserts.
Fierostore 84-88 4cyl CLUTCH PILOT BUSHING This new pilot bushing installs in the end of the crankshaft on 4cyl standard transmission Fieros. Part #69785 Price:$14.95 CLICK HERE
Get one and remove all doubt.
[This message has been edited by 84Bill (edited 11-17-2008).]
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10:31 AM
GT86 Member
Posts: 5203 From: Glendale, AZ Registered: Mar 2003
Originally posted by GT86: OK, Bill, whatever you say.
Thank you.
quote
Please keep this thread updated when you go to install your precious pilot bushing.
I'll be VERY happy if I never have to post in another thread like this...
quote
These inserts are pressed into the rear of the crankshaft and provide support for either the input shaft of a standard transmission or direct support of the torque converter hub of an automatic transmission. Use the following chart and diagrams when selecting a replacement crankshaft insert, keeping in mind GM also supplied engines to the Jeep Corporation for postal use:
Model Year Drive Model Part # View
1977-81 RWD Postal Jeep J3237088 D 1977-81 RWD Postal Jeep 33004041 E 1977-91 RWD Buick, Olds, Pont, Chevy 10007202 A 1978-93 FWD Buick, Olds, Pont, Chevy 10009785 B 1982-83 RWD Camaro, Firebird w/ auto 10018699 C 1982-83 FWD w/ automatic trans 10018699 C 1982-83 FWD w/ manual transmission 10009785 B 1982-86 RWD Camaro, Firebird w/ manual 10007202 A 1984-86 FWD w/ automatic transmission 10018699 C 1984-86 RWD Fiero w/ automatic trans. 10018699 C 1984 FWD w/ manual transmission 10009785 B 1984-86 RWD Fiero w/ manual trans. 10009785 B 1984 RWD Camaro, Firebird w/ auto 10018699 C- OD 1.498, ID .827 1985-93 RWD GMC, S-10 Chevy 3752487 E 1987-93 RWD S-10 Chevy, w/ manual trans. 10032605 1987-93 RWD Buick, Olds, Pont, Chevy 10007202 A
It is recommended to inspect all crankshafts to ensure that the proper insert is installed to match the desired application. AERA is currently aware of several aftermarket suppliers for some of the above mentioned inserts.
Fierostore 84-88 4cyl CLUTCH PILOT BUSHING This new pilot bushing installs in the end of the crankshaft on 4cyl standard transmission Fieros. Part #69785 Price:$14.95 CLICK HERE
Get one and remove all doubt.
[This message has been edited by 84Bill (edited 11-17-2008).]
IP: Logged
10:37 AM
GT86 Member
Posts: 5203 From: Glendale, AZ Registered: Mar 2003
Originally posted by GT86: Should tell anyone reading that Bill has no idea what he's talking about...
That may be so but GM INSTALLED pilot bushing in 2.5 engines...
They did so TO SUPPORT THE INPUT SHAFT AND KEEP THE CLUTCH DISK CENTERED.
So you are just trolling and making personal attacks on me for what reason?
To advise people NOT to install a pilot bushing when the engineers recommended otherwise?
Ya...Real smart.. ignore the engineers at your peril.. I sure as hell wont do it again.
quote
These inserts are pressed into the rear of the crankshaft and provide support for either the input shaft of a standard transmission or direct support of the torque converter hub of an automatic transmission. Use the following chart and diagrams when selecting a replacement crankshaft insert, keeping in mind GM also supplied engines to the Jeep Corporation for postal use:
Model Year Drive Model Part # View
1977-81 RWD Postal Jeep J3237088 D 1977-81 RWD Postal Jeep 33004041 E 1977-91 RWD Buick, Olds, Pont, Chevy 10007202 A 1978-93 FWD Buick, Olds, Pont, Chevy 10009785 B 1982-83 RWD Camaro, Firebird w/ auto 10018699 C 1982-83 FWD w/ automatic trans 10018699 C 1982-83 FWD w/ manual transmission 10009785 B 1982-86 RWD Camaro, Firebird w/ manual 10007202 A 1984-86 FWD w/ automatic transmission 10018699 C 1984-86 RWD Fiero w/ automatic trans. 10018699 C 1984 FWD w/ manual transmission 10009785 B 1984-86 RWD Fiero w/ manual trans. 10009785 B 1984 RWD Camaro, Firebird w/ auto 10018699 C- OD 1.498, ID .827 1985-93 RWD GMC, S-10 Chevy 3752487 E 1987-93 RWD S-10 Chevy, w/ manual trans. 10032605 1987-93 RWD Buick, Olds, Pont, Chevy 10007202 A
It is recommended to inspect all crankshafts to ensure that the proper insert is installed to match the desired application. AERA is currently aware of several aftermarket suppliers for some of the above mentioned inserts.
Fierostore 84-88 4cyl CLUTCH PILOT BUSHING This new pilot bushing installs in the end of the crankshaft on 4cyl standard transmission Fieros. Part #69785 Price:$14.95 CLICK HERE
Originally posted by GT86: People that value good tech info will be happy too.
And I will be happy if I never see another thread OR POST from anyone in tech recommending that you just ignore the advice of engineers and skip the installation of a 14.95 part.
quote
These inserts are pressed into the rear of the crankshaft and provide support for either the input shaft of a standard transmission or direct support of the torque converter hub of an automatic transmission. Use the following chart and diagrams when selecting a replacement crankshaft insert, keeping in mind GM also supplied engines to the Jeep Corporation for postal use:
Model Year Drive Model Part # View
1977-81 RWD Postal Jeep J3237088 D 1977-81 RWD Postal Jeep 33004041 E 1977-91 RWD Buick, Olds, Pont, Chevy 10007202 A 1978-93 FWD Buick, Olds, Pont, Chevy 10009785 B 1982-83 RWD Camaro, Firebird w/ auto 10018699 C 1982-83 FWD w/ automatic trans 10018699 C 1982-83 FWD w/ manual transmission 10009785 B 1982-86 RWD Camaro, Firebird w/ manual 10007202 A 1984-86 FWD w/ automatic transmission 10018699 C 1984-86 RWD Fiero w/ automatic trans. 10018699 C 1984 FWD w/ manual transmission 10009785 B 1984-86 RWD Fiero w/ manual trans. 10009785 B 1984 RWD Camaro, Firebird w/ auto 10018699 C- OD 1.498, ID .827 1985-93 RWD GMC, S-10 Chevy 3752487 E 1987-93 RWD S-10 Chevy, w/ manual trans. 10032605 1987-93 RWD Buick, Olds, Pont, Chevy 10007202 A
It is recommended to inspect all crankshafts to ensure that the proper insert is installed to match the desired application. AERA is currently aware of several aftermarket suppliers for some of the above mentioned inserts.
Fierostore 84-88 4cyl CLUTCH PILOT BUSHING This new pilot bushing installs in the end of the crankshaft on 4cyl standard transmission Fieros. Part #69785 Price:$14.95 CLICK HERE
Get one and remove all doubt.
[This message has been edited by 84Bill (edited 11-17-2008).]
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10:44 AM
GT86 Member
Posts: 5203 From: Glendale, AZ Registered: Mar 2003
Originally posted by 84Bill: And I will be happy if I never see another thread OR POST from anyone in tech recommending that you just ignore the advice of engineers and skip the installation of a 14.95 part.
OK, Bill, whatever you say
Like I said, please keep us updated. Would love to see how well your precious pilot bushing interacts with the end of the input shaft.
Originally posted by GT86: OK, Bill, whatever you say.
Again, thank you...
quote
Like I said, please keep us updated. Would love to see how well your precious pilot bushing interacts with the end of the input shaft.
When installed properly there should be no problems with the "interaction" unless the clutch disk wandersoff center and the PILOT BUSHING does as the engineers intended and keeps it from going too far... causing excessive vibrations which could lead to catastrophic failure of but not limited to the flywheel to crankshaft attaching bolts.
quote
These inserts are pressed into the rear of the crankshaft and provide support for either the input shaft of a standard transmission or direct support of the torque converter hub of an automatic transmission. Use the following chart and diagrams when selecting a replacement crankshaft insert, keeping in mind GM also supplied engines to the Jeep Corporation for postal use:
Model Year Drive Model Part # View
1977-81 RWD Postal Jeep J3237088 D 1977-81 RWD Postal Jeep 33004041 E 1977-91 RWD Buick, Olds, Pont, Chevy 10007202 A 1978-93 FWD Buick, Olds, Pont, Chevy 10009785 B 1982-83 RWD Camaro, Firebird w/ auto 10018699 C 1982-83 FWD w/ automatic trans 10018699 C 1982-83 FWD w/ manual transmission 10009785 B 1982-86 RWD Camaro, Firebird w/ manual 10007202 A 1984-86 FWD w/ automatic transmission 10018699 C 1984-86 RWD Fiero w/ automatic trans. 10018699 C 1984 FWD w/ manual transmission 10009785 B 1984-86 RWD Fiero w/ manual trans. 10009785 B 1984 RWD Camaro, Firebird w/ auto 10018699 C- OD 1.498, ID .827 1985-93 RWD GMC, S-10 Chevy 3752487 E 1987-93 RWD S-10 Chevy, w/ manual trans. 10032605 1987-93 RWD Buick, Olds, Pont, Chevy 10007202 A
It is recommended to inspect all crankshafts to ensure that the proper insert is installed to match the desired application. AERA is currently aware of several aftermarket suppliers for some of the above mentioned inserts.
Fierostore 84-88 4cyl CLUTCH PILOT BUSHING This new pilot bushing installs in the end of the crankshaft on 4cyl standard transmission Fieros. Part #69785 Price:$14.95 CLICK HERE
Get one and remove all doubt.
[This message has been edited by 84Bill (edited 11-17-2008).]
I have no doubt. You seem to be the only one that does. Several highly qualified people, including Archie, have explained it very well. A whole lot of Fieros with much more HP than yours and no pilots are not having your little problem.
Originally posted by weaselbeak: I have no doubt. You seem to be the only one that does. Several highly qualified people, including Archie, have explained it very well. A whole lot of Fieros with much more HP than yours and no pilots are not having your little problem.
The engineers decided to add a pilot bearing / pilot bushing / crank shaft insert for a reason... neither you nor anyone else on this forum... or this planet for that matter can argue that the purpose of this item is NOT TO SUPPORT THE INPUT SHAFT and keep it centered... IT IS the only reason regardless of what "Several highly qualified people, including Archie" say on this forum.
To ignore the advice of an engineer and remove a device that is designed to perform a simple function such as keeping a clutch plate on center is just asking for trouble. End of discussion.
quote
These inserts are pressed into the rear of the crankshaft and provide support for either the input shaft of a standard transmission or direct support of the torque converter hub of an automatic transmission. Use the following chart and diagrams when selecting a replacement crankshaft insert, keeping in mind GM also supplied engines to the Jeep Corporation for postal use:
Model Year Drive Model Part # View
1977-81 RWD Postal Jeep J3237088 D 1977-81 RWD Postal Jeep 33004041 E 1977-91 RWD Buick, Olds, Pont, Chevy 10007202 A 1978-93 FWD Buick, Olds, Pont, Chevy 10009785 B 1982-83 RWD Camaro, Firebird w/ auto 10018699 C 1982-83 FWD w/ automatic trans 10018699 C 1982-83 FWD w/ manual transmission 10009785 B 1982-86 RWD Camaro, Firebird w/ manual 10007202 A 1984-86 FWD w/ automatic transmission 10018699 C 1984-86 RWD Fiero w/ automatic trans. 10018699 C 1984 FWD w/ manual transmission 10009785 B 1984-86 RWD Fiero w/ manual trans. 10009785 B 1984 RWD Camaro, Firebird w/ auto 10018699 C- OD 1.498, ID .827 1985-93 RWD GMC, S-10 Chevy 3752487 E 1987-93 RWD S-10 Chevy, w/ manual trans. 10032605 1987-93 RWD Buick, Olds, Pont, Chevy 10007202 A
88 P Engine Asm. - 2.5 L4 (LR8/2.5R)
Spacer, Flywheel to Crankshaft - 10005655 Insert, Cr/Shf (W / M.T.) - 10009785 Insert, Cr/Shf (W / A.T.) - 10018699
It is recommended to inspect all crankshafts to ensure that the proper insert is installed to match the desired application. AERA is currently aware of several aftermarket suppliers for some of the above mentioned inserts.
Fierostore 84-88 4cyl CLUTCH PILOT BUSHING This new pilot bushing installs in the end of the crankshaft on 4cyl standard transmission Fieros. Part #69785 Price:$14.95 CLICK HERE
[This message has been edited by 84Bill (edited 11-17-2008).]
Part number listing from the 84-88 P Fiero 22P microfiche: It would appear the words "insert" and "pilot bushing" are one in the same. The part numbers are in line with the earlier listing I posted, except it includes 87-88.
84-87 P Engine Asm - 2.5 L4 (LR8/2.5R)
Spacer, Flywheel to Crankshaft - 10005655 Insert, Cr/Shf - 10018699
88 P Engine Asm. - 2.5 L4 (LR8/2.5R)
Spacer, Flywheel to Crankshaft - 10005655 Insert, Cr/Shf (W / M.T.) - 10009785 Insert, Cr/Shf (W / A.T.) - 10018699
No insert or pilot bushings are listed for any year V6.
After working on stuff for 30+ years myself, I would tend to believe the guy who has actually been in there countless times (aka Archie as an example) over what is in the parts list. I myself have never dealt with a manual tranny that didn't make use of a pilot bushing, and the tip of the input shafts I have dealt with were much longer than the one in 84Bill's picture.
Many many thanks, I have added this to page 1 as well.
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11:28 AM
CTFieroGT87 Member
Posts: 2520 From: Royal Oak, MI Registered: Oct 2002
What an argument, wow. Its fun listening to the claims made by people who obviously aren't engineers. Like Archie said, you can NOT have 3 bushings/bearings on a shaft. I might as well put a piece of bubble gum in the end of the crank, that'll do just about as much good. The play in the input shaft should be virtually zero, and the clutch rides those splines and is kept perfectly centered (remember the clutch disk installation tool?). The imbalance created by the clutch is not because its floating around 1/2", it is because the disk itself has an imbalance when it spins (usually less than 0.25 in*oz nowadays). So when the clutch is engaged at different points during driving, the balance of the engine/transmission is slightly changed.
Here is a picture of an input shaft which is designed to take advantage of a pilot bushing (RWD). It is pretty darn obvious when looking at any Fiero transmission input shaft, Muncie, Getrag or Isuzu that none of them have a bearing surface.
[This message has been edited by CTFieroGT87 (edited 11-17-2008).]
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12:13 PM
GT86 Member
Posts: 5203 From: Glendale, AZ Registered: Mar 2003
What an argument, wow. Its fun listening to the claims made by people who obviously aren't engineers. Like Archie said, you can NOT have 3 bushings/bearings on a shaft. I might as well put a piece of bubble gum in the end of the crank, that'll do just about as much good. The play in the input shaft should be virtually zero, and the clutch rides those splines and is kept perfectly centered (remember the clutch disk installation tool?). The imbalance created by the clutch is not because its floating around 1/2", it is because the disk itself has an imbalance when it spins (usually less than 0.25 in*oz nowadays). So when the clutch is engaged at different points during driving, the balance of the engine/transmission is slightly changed.
Here is a picture of an input shaft which is designed to take advantage of a pilot bushing (RWD). It is pretty darn obvious when looking at any Fiero transmission input shaft, Muncie, Getrag or Isuzu that none of them have a bearing surface.
Don't try to confuse Bill with facts...
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12:17 PM
Formula88 Member
Posts: 53788 From: Raleigh NC Registered: Jan 2001
Best pics I can find of my old 85 duke/5 speed Izzy:
End of input shaft. Not a lot of anything to go into a bushing.
Flywheel. Not that great a shot but but I cannot see anything in there that looks like it ever mated with the end of the input shaft, looks uniformly dark to me. If anything was supported in there I'd expect to see some sort of polished area in that hole.
This is not to say that some engines did or didn't have a bushing in there but from the evidence I can see it looks like even if it is in there, it's not going to be actually used since the input shaft from the tranny has no bearing surface to engage it.
Personally I think we could argue this forever and never get a definitive answer, some seem to have a bushing, most don't. Time to move on chaps ------------------ Dave
The engineers decided to add a pilot bearing / pilot bushing / crank shaft insert for a reason...
Fierostore 84-88 4cyl CLUTCH PILOT BUSHING This new pilot bushing installs in the end of the crankshaft on 4cyl standard transmission Fieros. Part #69785 Price:$14.95 CLICK HERE
I'm going to try and stand on neutral ground here and not tell you you’re wrong but (sorry if I missed it) it seems like this mostly your only argument. So far a lot of experienced members have provided evidence in support for their side of the argument and I haven’t really heard much more from you except the same statements repeated over and over. If you’re trying to help people out then you are going to need to provide a lot more than a parts listing and a statement about your particular setup. In addition, it seems like you are refusing to further inspect what caused your failure. Regardless of whether or not a pilot bushing may be important, it doesn’t mean that was your cause of failure. All I’m saying is, if you want to continue this on, you are going to need to provide more than what you’ve already given. After you do that then I’m sure a lot of people will start taking you more seriously.
[This message has been edited by GraterFang (edited 11-17-2008).]
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01:42 PM
Will Member
Posts: 14250 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
Originally posted by 84Bill: Again... no pilot bushing, no support for the end of the input shaft....nothing to stop the end of the input shaft (with attached clutch disk) from going off center.... end of discussion.
Bill, the reasons engineers decide to use (or not use) a pilot bushing have to do with the application. Transverse transmissions generally have a very short bell housing and a long internal shaft length compared to the length of the shaft in the bell housing, so as a result the end of the shaft doesn't require additional support. Longitudinal transmissions generally have a much longer shaft length in the bell housing so it does need support. That's why the Fiero applications didn't use a pilot bushing (or bearing) but the same engine in a longitudinal application (such as the S-10) would. The ends of the cranks are machined the same way because the tooling used is the same, as is the design validation (a very expensive process) for the crank.
If you have something wrong with the clutch that's bad enough to pull the input shaft out of alignment, the only thing a pilot bushing would buy you might be a few more months of service before failure, and that's if you could even install one in the first place. Since the transverse transmissions weren't designed for use with a pilot bushing it may very well be that you'd have to have one custom made.
I dont care what the forum "experts" say. GM INSTALLED THEM FOR A REASON and these forum members are not engineers.
IF you have a 2.5 DO NOT TAKE THE ADVICE of these people. Instead buy the bushing, it costs 14.95.
It supports the input shaft of the transmission and keeps the clutch disk centered.
quote
These inserts are pressed into the rear of the crankshaft and provide support for either the input shaft of a standard transmission or direct support of the torque converter hub of an automatic transmission. Use the following chart and diagrams when selecting a replacement crankshaft insert, keeping in mind GM also supplied engines to the Jeep Corporation for postal use:
Model Year Drive Model Part # View
1977-81 RWD Postal Jeep J3237088 D 1977-81 RWD Postal Jeep 33004041 E 1977-91 RWD Buick, Olds, Pont, Chevy 10007202 A 1978-93 FWD Buick, Olds, Pont, Chevy 10009785 B 1982-83 RWD Camaro, Firebird w/ auto 10018699 C 1982-83 FWD w/ automatic trans 10018699 C 1982-83 FWD w/ manual transmission 10009785 B 1982-86 RWD Camaro, Firebird w/ manual 10007202 A 1984-86 FWD w/ automatic transmission 10018699 C 1984-86 RWD Fiero w/ automatic trans. 10018699 C 1984 FWD w/ manual transmission 10009785 B 1984-86 RWD Fiero w/ manual trans. 10009785 B 1984 RWD Camaro, Firebird w/ auto 10018699 C- OD 1.498, ID .827 1985-93 RWD GMC, S-10 Chevy 3752487 E 1987-93 RWD S-10 Chevy, w/ manual trans. 10032605 1987-93 RWD Buick, Olds, Pont, Chevy 10007202 A
88 P Engine Asm. - 2.5 L4 (LR8/2.5R)
Spacer, Flywheel to Crankshaft - 10005655 Insert, Cr/Shf (W / M.T.) - 10009785 Insert, Cr/Shf (W / A.T.) - 10018699
It is recommended to inspect all crankshafts to ensure that the proper insert is installed to match the desired application. AERA is currently aware of several aftermarket suppliers for some of the above mentioned inserts.
Fierostore 84-88 4cyl CLUTCH PILOT BUSHING This new pilot bushing installs in the end of the crankshaft on 4cyl standard transmission Fieros. Part #69785 Price:$14.95 CLICK HERE
[This message has been edited by 84Bill (edited 11-17-2008).]
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02:45 PM
GraterFang Member
Posts: 1387 From: Grants Pass, OR Registered: Feb 2008
Put it in if it makes you feel better, but it won't do anything. The input shaft has no pilot, therefore a pilot bushing will do no good. As has been stated many times before, the input shaft isn't even long enough to make it to the end of the crankshaft. Many of us have been inside many Fieros (including myself) and have never seen a bushing.
It looks to me like your failure was due to the flywheel bolts shearing off under a high speed / high load situation. Must have been one heck of a boom.
Good luck with the repairs.
------------------ 1986 SE 350 V8
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03:11 PM
Patrick Member
Posts: 37650 From: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada Registered: Apr 99
Originally posted by GraterFang: 3) Worst of all, you're still not adding anything new to your side of the argument or this thread. I add another vote for the trash can.
Yes I did but it seems to be getting ignored.
I dont know how that can be since I've added it to almost every reply today
But I'll try again because if I save one person from experiencing this failure then I have done what I set out to do.
quote
These inserts are pressed into the rear of the crankshaft and provide support for either the input shaft of a standard transmission or direct support of the torque converter hub of an automatic transmission. Use the following chart and diagrams when selecting a replacement crankshaft insert, keeping in mind GM also supplied engines to the Jeep Corporation for postal use:
Model Year Drive Model Part # View
1977-81 RWD Postal Jeep J3237088 D 1977-81 RWD Postal Jeep 33004041 E 1977-91 RWD Buick, Olds, Pont, Chevy 10007202 A 1978-93 FWD Buick, Olds, Pont, Chevy 10009785 B 1982-83 RWD Camaro, Firebird w/ auto 10018699 C 1982-83 FWD w/ automatic trans 10018699 C 1982-83 FWD w/ manual transmission 10009785 B 1982-86 RWD Camaro, Firebird w/ manual 10007202 A 1984-86 FWD w/ automatic transmission 10018699 C 1984-86 RWD Fiero w/ automatic trans. 10018699 C 1984 FWD w/ manual transmission 10009785 B 1984-86 RWD Fiero w/ manual trans. 10009785 B 1984 RWD Camaro, Firebird w/ auto 10018699 C- OD 1.498, ID .827 1985-93 RWD GMC, S-10 Chevy 3752487 E 1987-93 RWD S-10 Chevy, w/ manual trans. 10032605 1987-93 RWD Buick, Olds, Pont, Chevy 10007202 A
88 P Engine Asm. - 2.5 L4 (LR8/2.5R)
Spacer, Flywheel to Crankshaft - 10005655 Insert, Cr/Shf (W / M.T.) - 10009785 Insert, Cr/Shf (W / A.T.) - 10018699
It is recommended to inspect all crankshafts to ensure that the proper insert is installed to match the desired application. AERA is currently aware of several aftermarket suppliers for some of the above mentioned inserts.
Fierostore 84-88 4cyl CLUTCH PILOT BUSHING This new pilot bushing installs in the end of the crankshaft on 4cyl standard transmission Fieros. Part #69785 Price:$14.95 CLICK HERE
So go ahead and trash this thread... I'll just open another.
[This message has been edited by 84Bill (edited 11-17-2008).]
IP: Logged
03:39 PM
86GT3.4DOHC Member
Posts: 10007 From: Marion Ohio Registered: Apr 2004
Please stop posting the same IRRELEVANT snippet over and over and over again. Look at the first listing, its full of errors, like listing the firebird as FWD. Parts list are wrong, hell they are probably wrong as much as they are right.
Fact of the matter is, the engine has a slot for the pilot bushing because its a hold over from the RWD setups. Why RWD trannies use it and ours dont, I dont know, I would assume the FWD trannies are better supported.
Fact is, the FWD input shaft does NOT extend far enough to mate with the bushing. Just looking at it proves this, seeing the pic of the RWD input shaft shows it, and I garentee that if you fill the pilot bushing with grease, install the tranny, then take it back apart, there will be no grease on the input shaft.
Fact is, the input shaft cannot possibly move enough to effect anything unless the input shaft bearings fail.
And while its not a fact, its highly unlikely that anything in there could have happened with enough force to snap the six flywheel bolts off.
You need to learn to admit you are wrong, I did, when you started this thread, I didnt know any better when it came to the 4cyls, but some basic common sense about tranny interchangability, and examining the many pictures showing the shafts, definitely shows that the bushing does not come into play with the Fiero engines.
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03:50 PM
Hulki U. My-BFF Member
Posts: 5949 From: Back home in East Berlin, PA Registered: Apr 2008
Bill, you've posted the same info 24 times so far in this thread, do you think that's appropriate? You have to understand something about people, and that is telling them the same thing over and over 24 times will cause them to reject the information; in this case more is less, way less. I know that you mean well, but if your goal is to get people to investigate installing a pilot bushing you must know that the way you're going about it will make even less people think about doing it, not more.
There are a lot of people on this board who have as much, if not more, experience than you. I think that to be fair, you should at least pretend that these people have the right to think for themselves.
I, for one, understand from an engineering point of view why a pilot bushing isn't necessary in a transverse application and I won't use one because it introduces the potential for a problem where none exists. I would ask that you grant me the right to make that decision as it is, truly, mine to make, and I would also tell you, one time only, for you to accept or reject as you see fit, that a pilot bushing would not have made a difference in your case, and in fact might have caused a failure sooner if you had had one because a significant misalignment in conjunction with the bearing would have accelerated wear on the shaft bearings.
Again, posting the same thing 24, or even 240 times, will only defeat whatever goal you had in mind when you started this thread.
Bill, you've posted the same info 24 times so far in this thread, do you think that's appropriate? You have to understand something about people, and that is telling them the same thing over and over 24 times will cause them to reject the information; in this case more is less, way less. I know that you mean well, but if your goal is to get people to investigate installing a pilot bushing you must know that the way you're going about it will make even less people think about doing it, not more.
There are a lot of people on this board who have as much, if not more, experience than you. I think that to be fair, you should at least pretend that these people have the right to think for themselves.
I, for one, understand from an engineering point of view why a pilot bushing isn't necessary in a transverse application and I won't use one because it introduces the potential for a problem where none exists. I would ask that you grant me the right to make that decision as it is, truly, mine to make, and I would also tell you, one time only, for you to accept or reject as you see fit, that a pilot bushing would not have made a difference in your case, and in fact might have caused a failure sooner if you had had one because a significant misalignment in conjunction with the bearing would have accelerated wear on the shaft bearings.
Again, posting the same thing 24, or even 240 times, will only defeat whatever goal you had in mind when you started this thread.
Stated with civility and respect,
JazzMan
I came here and asked a few questions about the pilot bushing when I installed my re manufactured 2.5 because I could not get the old bushing out. I was given the smae responce you gave me here... "it is not needed" "dont bother" so I left it out.
A year and a half later my flywheel comes out from under the car.
Many excuses flew as to WHY this happened, they ranged from age to abuse to you are an idiot to un tightened bolts to over tightened bolts to I am an expert.
Only a handful recognize the significance of a pilot bushing and mentioned it. My 84 FIERO factory service manual shows it, the FIERO P22 has a part number for it... Surely there must be a reason and the reason is this.
also stated with civility and respect
quote
These inserts are pressed into the rear of the crankshaft and provide support for either the input shaft of a standard transmission or direct support of the torque converter hub of an automatic transmission. Use the following chart and diagrams when selecting a replacement crankshaft insert, keeping in mind GM also supplied engines to the Jeep Corporation for postal use:
Model Year Drive Model Part # View
1977-81 RWD Postal Jeep J3237088 D 1977-81 RWD Postal Jeep 33004041 E 1977-91 RWD Buick, Olds, Pont, Chevy 10007202 A 1978-93 FWD Buick, Olds, Pont, Chevy 10009785 B 1982-83 RWD Camaro, Firebird w/ auto 10018699 C 1982-83 FWD w/ automatic trans 10018699 C 1982-83 FWD w/ manual transmission 10009785 B 1982-86 RWD Camaro, Firebird w/ manual 10007202 A 1984-86 FWD w/ automatic transmission 10018699 C 1984-86 RWD Fiero w/ automatic trans. 10018699 C 1984 FWD w/ manual transmission 10009785 B 1984-86 RWD Fiero w/ manual trans. 10009785 B 1984 RWD Camaro, Firebird w/ auto 10018699 C- OD 1.498, ID .827 1985-93 RWD GMC, S-10 Chevy 3752487 E 1987-93 RWD S-10 Chevy, w/ manual trans. 10032605 1987-93 RWD Buick, Olds, Pont, Chevy 10007202 A
88 P Engine Asm. - 2.5 L4 (LR8/2.5R)
Spacer, Flywheel to Crankshaft - 10005655 Insert, Cr/Shf (W / M.T.) - 10009785 Insert, Cr/Shf (W / A.T.) - 10018699
It is recommended to inspect all crankshafts to ensure that the proper insert is installed to match the desired application. AERA is currently aware of several aftermarket suppliers for some of the above mentioned inserts.
Part number listing from the 84-88 P Fiero 22P microfiche: It would appear the words "insert" and "pilot bushing" are one in the same. The part numbers are in line with the earlier listing I posted, except it includes 87-88.
84-87 P Engine Asm - 2.5 L4 (LR8/2.5R)
Spacer, Flywheel to Crankshaft - 10005655 Insert, Cr/Shf - 10018699
88 P Engine Asm. - 2.5 L4 (LR8/2.5R)
Spacer, Flywheel to Crankshaft - 10005655 Insert, Cr/Shf (W / M.T.) - 10009785 Insert, Cr/Shf (W / A.T.) - 10018699 I found this after a quick search online. Looks like an insert is used along with a pilot bushing? (Notice 87-88 Fiero is not listed)
Crankshaft Flange Inserts on GM 2.5L (151 CID) Engines
General Motors Corporation uses 3 different crankshaft inserts on their 2.5L (151 CID) engines.
These steel crankshaft inserts are pressed into the tail end of the crankshaft and provide support for a pilot bushing on vehicles with manual transmissions or directly support the nose cone of the torque converter on vehicles with automatic transmissions.
Use the following chart and diagrams when selecting a replacement crankshaft or steel crankshaft insert:
Model Year Drive Model Part #
1979-80 RWD all 10007202 1980-81 FWD all 10009785 1982-83 RWD Camaro, Firebird w/ auto 10018699 1982-83 FWD all 10018699 1982-83 FWD w/ manual trans 10009785 1982-84 RWD Camaro, Firebird w/ manual 10007202 1984 FWD w/ auto trans 10018699 1984 RWD Fiero w/ auto trans.10018699 1984 FWD w/ manual transmission 10009785 1984 RWD Fiero w/ manual trans. 10009785 1984 RWD Camaro, Firebird w/auto 10018699
* w/ auto = vehicle with automatic transmission w/ manual trans. = vehicle with manual transmission
It is recommended to inspect all crankshafts to ensure that the proper insert is installed to match the desired application.
Crankshaft Pilot Bushing Update On 1979-93 GM 2.5L Engines
The AERA Technical Committee offers the following information regarding an update on crankshaft pilot bushings for 1977-93 GM 2.5L engines. Previously, AERA published Technical Bulletin TB 477R. The information in this bulletin is to be used in addition to that bulletin. GM has used six unique crankshaft pilot bushing inserts for their different 2.5L engine applications.
These inserts are pressed into the rear of the crankshaft and provide support for either the input shaft of a standard transmission or direct support of the torque converter hub of an automatic transmission. Use the following chart and diagrams when selecting a replacement crankshaft insert, keeping in mind GM also supplied engines to the Jeep Corporation for postal use:
Model Year Drive Model Part # View
1977-81 RWD Postal Jeep J3237088 D 1977-81 RWD Postal Jeep 33004041 E 1977-91 RWD Buick, Olds, Pont, Chevy 10007202 A 1978-93 FWD Buick, Olds, Pont, Chevy 10009785 B 1982-83 RWD Camaro, Firebird w/ auto 10018699 C 1982-83 FWD w/ automatic trans 10018699 C 1982-83 FWD w/ manual transmission 10009785 B 1982-86 RWD Camaro, Firebird w/ manual 10007202 A 1984-86 FWD w/ automatic transmission 10018699 C 1984-86 RWD Fiero w/ automatic trans. 10018699 C 1984 FWD w/ manual transmission 10009785 B 1984-86 RWD Fiero w/ manual trans. 10009785 B 1984 RWD Camaro, Firebird w/ auto 10018699 C- OD 1.498, ID .827 1985-93 RWD GMC, S-10 Chevy 3752487 E 1987-93 RWD S-10 Chevy, w/ manual trans. 10032605 1987-93 RWD Buick, Olds, Pont, Chevy 10007202 A
It is recommended to inspect all crankshafts to ensure that the proper insert is installed to match the desired application. AERA is currently aware of several aftermarket suppliers for some of the above mentioned inserts.
Originally posted by 84Bill: I came here and asked a few questions about the pilot bushing when I installed my re manufactured 2.5 because I could not get the old bushing out. I was given the smae responce you gave me here... "it is not needed" "dont bother" so I left it out.
A year and a half later my flywheel comes out from under the car.
Many excuses flew as to WHY this happened, they ranged from age to abuse to you are an idiot to un tightened bolts to over tightened bolts to I am an expert.
Only a handful recognize the significance of a pilot bushing and mentioned it. My 84 FIERO factory service manual shows it, the FIERO P22 has a part number for it... Surely there must be a reason and the reason is this.
also stated with civility and respect
Much like your PM to me?
quote
Originally PM'd by 84Bill: Read this or you can kiss my ass James
(25 times repeated quote deleted for brevity)
If you're going to act like an ass toward me, please don't PM me again.
JazzMan
IP: Logged
05:32 PM
KurtAKX Member
Posts: 4008 From: West Bloomfield, MI Registered: Feb 2002
Real nice Jazz... the purpose of PM is a PRIVATE message to avoid public conflict.
A private message is PRIVATE and you violated the unwritten rule that you do not post them publicly unless you ask the other person for permission.
If you're going to act nice in the public areas and shite on me via PMs, you should expect that I'll post your behavior here so that all can see. If you send civil PMs to me then they don't get posted.
Remember Liquid Reality? Don't be him...
JazzMan
IP: Logged
05:44 PM
86GT3.4DOHC Member
Posts: 10007 From: Marion Ohio Registered: Apr 2004
1982-83 RWD Camaro, Firebird w/ auto 10018699 C 1982-83 FWD w/ automatic trans 10018699 C 1982-83 FWD w/ manual transmission 10009785 B 1982-86 RWD Camaro, Firebird w/ manual 10007202 A 1982-83 RWD Camaro, Firebird w/ auto 10018699 C 1982-83 FWD w/ automatic trans 10018699 C 1982-83 FWD w/ manual transmission 10009785 B 1982-86 RWD Camaro, Firebird w/ manual 10007202 A 1982-83 RWD Camaro, Firebird w/ auto 10018699 C 1982-83 FWD w/ automatic trans 10018699 C 1982-83 FWD w/ manual transmission 10009785 B 1982-86 RWD Camaro, Firebird w/ manual 10007202 A 1982-83 RWD Camaro, Firebird w/ auto 10018699 C 1982-83 FWD w/ automatic trans 10018699 C 1982-83 FWD w/ manual transmission 10009785 B 1982-86 RWD Camaro, Firebird w/ manual 10007202 A 1982-83 RWD Camaro, Firebird w/ auto 10018699 C 1982-83 FWD w/ automatic trans 10018699 C 1982-83 FWD w/ manual transmission 10009785 B 1982-86 RWD Camaro, Firebird w/ manual 10007202 A 1982-83 RWD Camaro, Firebird w/ auto 10018699 C 1982-83 FWD w/ automatic trans 10018699 C 1982-83 FWD w/ manual transmission 10009785 B 1982-86 RWD Camaro, Firebird w/ manual 10007202 A 1982-83 RWD Camaro, Firebird w/ auto 10018699 C 1982-83 FWD w/ automatic trans 10018699 C 1982-83 FWD w/ manual transmission 10009785 B 1982-86 RWD Camaro, Firebird w/ manual 10007202 A 1982-83 RWD Camaro, Firebird w/ auto 10018699 C 1982-83 FWD w/ automatic trans 10018699 C 1982-83 FWD w/ manual transmission 10009785 B 1982-86 RWD Camaro, Firebird w/ manual 10007202 A 1982-83 RWD Camaro, Firebird w/ auto 10018699 C 1982-83 FWD w/ automatic trans 10018699 C 1982-83 FWD w/ manual transmission 10009785 B 1982-86 RWD Camaro, Firebird w/ manual 10007202 A 1982-83 RWD Camaro, Firebird w/ auto 10018699 C 1982-83 FWD w/ automatic trans 10018699 C 1982-83 FWD w/ manual transmission 10009785 B 1982-86 RWD Camaro, Firebird w/ manual 10007202 A 1982-83 RWD Camaro, Firebird w/ auto 10018699 C 1982-83 FWD w/ automatic trans 10018699 C 1982-83 FWD w/ manual transmission 10009785 B 1982-86 RWD Camaro, Firebird w/ manual 10007202 A 1982-83 RWD Camaro, Firebird w/ auto 10018699 C 1982-83 FWD w/ automatic trans 10018699 C 1982-83 FWD w/ manual transmission 10009785 B 1982-86 RWD Camaro, Firebird w/ manual 10007202 A 1982-83 RWD Camaro, Firebird w/ auto 10018699 C 1982-83 FWD w/ automatic trans 10018699 C 1982-83 FWD w/ manual transmission 10009785 B 1982-86 RWD Camaro, Firebird w/ manual 10007202 A ... nope, theres still no such thing as a FWD Camaro or Firebird. But... it says so... and I repeated it about a dozen times... how can it not be true, surely there is no way it is a mistake....
If you're going to act nice in the public areas and shite on me via PMs, you should expect that I'll post your behavior here so that all can see. If you send civil PMs to me then they don't get posted.
Remember Liquid Reality? Don't be him...
JazzMan
Fine... I think you are acting like an ass hole. For a person who seems a little more than average in intelligence I figured you would be less apt to go with the flow and ignore technical bulletins recommending the installation of a pilot bushing. Since you appear to be of weak character anymore you can kiss my ass all day and all night from here to eternity.
IP: Logged
05:49 PM
86GT3.4DOHC Member
Posts: 10007 From: Marion Ohio Registered: Apr 2004
Lets try a little common sense. Look at the first pic. You can clearly see the circuilar grooving caused by the input shaft rotating against the pilot bushing.
Now look at the second pic. Where is the grooving, where is the wear? The shaft is still cleanly machined.
Explain that. No BS, no diversions, no deflecting. If the input shaft has been rotating against the busing for 20 years now, why doesnt it show?
quote
Originally posted by CTFieroGT87:
IP: Logged
05:53 PM
86GT3.4DOHC Member
Posts: 10007 From: Marion Ohio Registered: Apr 2004
AND, explain this. if the pilot bushing is neccessary to keep the transmission from exploding, and knowing the 4cyl transmissions are interchangable with the V6, yet the V6 doesnt use a bushing, why are there 100,000+ V6 fieros running around still? Shouldnt all the transmissions have failed?
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