Originally posted by 86GT3.4DOHC: AND, explain this. if the pilot bushing is neccessary to keep the transmission from exploding, and knowing the 4cyl transmissions are interchangable with the V6, yet the V6 doesnt use a bushing, why are there 100,000+ V6 fieros running around still? Shouldnt all the transmissions have failed?
I can't, I'm not an engineer.
I can tell you this... they installed pilot bushings into 2.5 L engines for a reason.
I doubt it had to do with increasing the horsepower and torque of the iron duke. In fact I 100% positive about that.
Crankshaft Flange Inserts on GM 2.5L (151 CID) Engines
General Motors Corporation uses 3 different crankshaft inserts on their 2.5L (151 CID) engines.
These steel crankshaft inserts are pressed into the tail end of the crankshaft and provide support for a pilot bushing on vehicles with manual transmissions or directly support the nose cone of the torque converter on vehicles with automatic transmissions.
Use the following chart and diagrams when selecting a replacement crankshaft or steel crankshaft insert:
Crankshaft Pilot Bushing Update On 1979-93 GM 2.5L Engines
The AERA Technical Committee offers the following information regarding an update on crankshaft pilot bushings for 1977-93 GM 2.5L engines. Previously, AERA published Technical Bulletin TB 477R. The information in this bulletin is to be used in addition to that bulletin. GM has used six unique crankshaft pilot bushing inserts for their different 2.5L engine applications.
These inserts are pressed into the rear of the crankshaft and provide support for either the input shaft of a standard transmission or direct support of the torque converter hub of an automatic transmission. Use the following chart and diagrams when selecting a replacement crankshaft insert, keeping in mind GM also supplied engines to the Jeep Corporation for postal use:
Model Year Drive Model Part # View 1984-86 RWD Fiero w/ automatic trans. 10018699 C 1984-86 RWD Fiero w/ manual trans. 10009785 B 1
It is recommended to inspect all crankshafts to ensure that the proper insert is installed to match the desired application. AERA is currently aware of several aftermarket suppliers for some of the above mentioned inserts.
The AERA Technical Committee
[This message has been edited by 84Bill (edited 11-17-2008).]
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06:00 PM
86GT3.4DOHC Member
Posts: 10007 From: Marion Ohio Registered: Apr 2004
I realize at this point it is pointless, the facts have been stated, experts polled, but one more point.
This is a Fiero clutch allignment tool (Actually the splines dont look right, but that was listed as a Fiero tool so it MUST be right. At any rate, its the same shape and size)
If you remember the last time you installed a clutch, the 1" tip of that tool slides into the crankshaft. THAT is the diameter of the pilot bushing. There is NO WAY the input shaft would fit into there, ignoring the fact that it could never reach.
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06:02 PM
86GT3.4DOHC Member
Posts: 10007 From: Marion Ohio Registered: Apr 2004
I can tell you this... they installed pilot bushings into 2.5 L engines for a reason.
I doubt it had to do with increasing the horsepower and torque of the iron duke. In fact I 100% positive about that.
Ive shown three diffrent reasons why it cannot be, a dozen other people have testified to the same, and experts have given thier experiences. But we're all supposed to belive you, the expert, except when it comes down to knowing something, then you're 'not an engineer'
so you cant explain ONE of the three diffrent reasons Ive given that it cant be. But you are SOOOOO positive that it has to be...
STFU and accept the fact that you are wrong.
[This message has been edited by 86GT3.4DOHC (edited 11-17-2008).]
Been reading this post throughout the day for a laugh. Finally decided I had to look. I have both a 2.5 and a Isuzu sitting in the garage out of an 86 so it may be different. But I put a straightedge across the Mating surface of the block and the crank potrudes maybe .250 past the mating surface. The did the same to the Isuzu and the Input sits in about .750 form the mating surface. That leave .5 between the crank and the input shaft. Now it could be said the pilot bushing is made to "extend" from the crank to reach the Input shaft. Problem with that on my '86 2.5 is the hole in the end of the crank is a concave radius, there is no way to keep a bushing in there. I am not saying that Bills did not have a bushing, I imagine it did if he had questioned it before his new motor went in, but I believe it was there because the motor came off a production line that went out to many different vehicles RWD and FWD.
Just my observations, I would love to see any real proof they were ever used in FWD applications so I know to check. BTW that Isuzu sat behind my L67 for a couple years with no bushing and it never blew and I didn't baby it either.
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06:08 PM
86GT3.4DOHC Member
Posts: 10007 From: Marion Ohio Registered: Apr 2004
Actually I took that out because I noticed the last thing you posted was diffrent. Not by much, but it wasnt the exact same thing you have posted TEN TIMES.
Here let me try again
the sky is green the sky is green the sky is green the sky is green the sky is green the sky is green the sky is green the sky is green the sky is green the sky is green the sky is green
is the sky green?
Anyone who has a tranny out can add a fourth impossiblity.
Measure the distance from the tip of the input shaft to the facing surface of the bell housing.
The crank shaft sits flush or near flush with the facing of the engine bellhousing, so unless the input shaft protrudes about 1" from the face of the transmission, there is no way it can touch the bushing.
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06:11 PM
86GT3.4DOHC Member
Posts: 10007 From: Marion Ohio Registered: Apr 2004
Ignoring the information (not "crap as you eloquently put it) makes you an ignorant moron.
The 'information' you list states that there was also a FWD F-body. you wanna explain away that one without explaining away the credibility of the source?
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06:12 PM
86GT3.4DOHC Member
Posts: 10007 From: Marion Ohio Registered: Apr 2004
Been reading this post throughout the day for a laugh....
There bill explain that one. You want him to take pictures too? then how are you going to explain it away? What, now you're not a ruler expert so somehow that invalidates it.
Jesus christ, we're all wrong sometimes, get over it.
Originally posted by Mike Gonzalez: Now it could be said the pilot bushing is made to "extend" from the crank to reach the Input shaft. Problem with that on my '86 2.5 is the hole in the end of the crank is a concave radius, there is no way to keep a bushing in there.
The bushing did just that.. it extended from the crank some distance... how far I dont recall at this point. The input shaft doesn't necessarily need to extend through the bushing and into the crank. All that is required is the input shaft be stopped from getting too far off center. just .100 would be more than enough.
In the assembly of my PP and clutch I had to be sure to align a dot on the PP with an X on the flywheel. Apparently these units are sensitive to balance...
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06:15 PM
86GT3.4DOHC Member
Posts: 10007 From: Marion Ohio Registered: Apr 2004
The bushing did just that.. it extended from the crank some distance...
An inch?!? Show me a picture of that. Also show me where this bushing is 1" diameter on the inside. Remember the tip of the input shaft has to fit into it, and from the picture you put up, that aint happening with a 1/2" bushing
[This message has been edited by 86GT3.4DOHC (edited 11-17-2008).]
Originally posted by 86GT3.4DOHC: I realize at this point it is pointless, the facts have been stated, experts polled, but one more point. This is a Fiero clutch allignment tool (Actually the splines dont look right, but that was listed as a Fiero tool so it MUST be right. At any rate, its the same shape and size)
The pilot bushings primary purpose is to support the INPUT shaft... not the alignment tool...
The pilot bushings primary purpose is to support the INPUT shaft... not the alignment tool...
What the hell is wrong with you?
The allignment tool is a duplicate of the input shaft, the tip is a duplicate of where the pilot bushing goes. Thats why it sits snugly in there so the clutch is straight.
If the tool didnt fit firmly, it would sit straight, so the disk would be cocked.
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06:18 PM
86GT3.4DOHC Member
Posts: 10007 From: Marion Ohio Registered: Apr 2004
So what, when there is too much evidence against your point of view, you deflect the attention from your mistake by trying to poke fun at people?
At this point im fairly convinced you are just pretending to see how far you can drag this out, theres no way anyone can really be that ignorant. Everyone else has given up, I might as well too.
[This message has been edited by 86GT3.4DOHC (edited 11-17-2008).]
Originally posted by 86GT3.4DOHC: What the hell is wrong with you?
The allignment tool is a duplicate of the input shaft, the tip is a duplicate of where the pilot bushing goes. Thats why it sits snugly in there so the clutch is straight.
If the tool didnt fit firmly, it would sit straight, so the disk would be cocked.
Funny because I just asked the same question.. what is wrong with you?
Oh you must have missed this.. sorry, allow me to repost.
quote
These inserts are pressed into the rear of the crankshaft and provide support for either the input shaft of a standard transmission or direct support of the torque converter hub of an automatic transmission. Use the following chart and diagrams when selecting a replacement crankshaft insert, keeping in mind GM also supplied engines to the Jeep Corporation for postal use:
Model Year Drive Model Part # View
1984-86 RWD Fiero w/ automatic trans. 10018699 C 1984-86 RWD Fiero w/ manual trans. 10009785 B
It is recommended to inspect all crankshafts to ensure that the proper insert is installed to match the desired application. AERA is currently aware of several aftermarket suppliers for some of the above mentioned inserts.
Fierostore 84-88 4cyl CLUTCH PILOT BUSHING This new pilot bushing installs in the end of the crankshaft on 4cyl standard transmission Fieros. Part #69785 Price:$14.95 CLICK HERE
Get one and remove all doubt.
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06:23 PM
86GT3.4DOHC Member
Posts: 10007 From: Marion Ohio Registered: Apr 2004
Have you never seen an incorrect part listed in a store before? Go buy yourself a stant lever radiator cap and take a very long drive through the desert and do us all a favor.
PFFT... yet again, you completely ignore the facts and questions posted, and throw up the same incorrect information.
Should I post the FWD F-body again? Nah, you'll just ignore it and post that again.
Show me a picture of this majcal extending pilot bushing that holds the input shaft 1" away from the crank or shut up....
dammit, im just enabling him arent I?
[This message has been edited by 86GT3.4DOHC (edited 11-17-2008).]
Originally posted by 86GT3.4DOHC: Okay captian suicide...
Cute..on with the personal slams... how juvenile.
quote
So what, when there is too much evidence against your point of view, you deflect the attention from your mistake by trying to poke fun at people?
Diflect attention? No I'm directing attention to those of us with 2.5 engines to a bulletin recommending that you make sure the proper crank insert (pilot bushing) is installed... EVEN IN AN AUTOMATIC.
Hey maybe you could check to see if the fiero store sells an alignment too for a torque converter? That would be nice.
quote
At this point im fairly convinced you are just pretending to see how far you can drag this out, theres no way anyone can really be that ignorant. Everyone else has given up, I might as well too.
Apparently you are because you refuse to accept this information as being valid... that doesn't make me ignorant.. on the contrary it makes you look ignorant.
quote
These inserts are pressed into the rear of the crankshaft and provide support for either the input shaft of a standard transmission or direct support of the torque converter hub of an automatic transmission. Use the following chart and diagrams when selecting a replacement crankshaft insert, keeping in mind GM also supplied engines to the Jeep Corporation for postal use:
Model Year Drive Model Part # View
1984-86 RWD Fiero w/ automatic trans. 10018699 C 1984-86 RWD Fiero w/ manual trans. 10009785 B
It is recommended to inspect all crankshafts to ensure that the proper insert is installed to match the desired application. AERA is currently aware of several aftermarket suppliers for some of the above mentioned inserts.
Fierostore 84-88 4cyl CLUTCH PILOT BUSHING This new pilot bushing installs in the end of the crankshaft on 4cyl standard transmission Fieros. Part #69785 Price:$14.95 CLICK HERE
Get one and remove all doubt.
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06:28 PM
86GT3.4DOHC Member
Posts: 10007 From: Marion Ohio Registered: Apr 2004
Originally posted by 86GT3.4DOHC: dammit, im just enabling him arent I?
No, I'm disabling you and those like you who told me not to install a pilot bushing because 1) No front wheel drive GM car uses them.. Bullshit 2) They are not installed in Fieros... Bullshit 3) That the are installed for no reason and GM just wanted to waste the money... BULLSHIT 4) The input shaft is too short... well how long is the busing?
quote
Read your own posts dumbass.
I usually do since I'm the one that types them.
quote
What am I supposed to do when someone who goes on and on about suicide on a public forum questions my mental status.
Well you have obviously cracked... and umm this thread is about a pilot bushing? let me check... Yeah pilot bushing.. are you suicidal over this stuff? Wow.. dewd get some help man.
quote
To the trashcan.... WHOOooosshhhh....
Why... do you get off watching other peoples stuff getting "trashed" for no other reason than your own amusement? What an immature little ass hole you are.
[This message has been edited by 84Bill (edited 11-17-2008).]
Bill: The trans input shaft won't reach the crank by a large amount therefore a pilot bushing on a Fiero is useless. However, if after reading the evidence to support this, if you still disagree put a pilot bushing in if it makes you happy !
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07:47 PM
Blacktree Member
Posts: 20770 From: Central Florida Registered: Dec 2001
This thread is both amusing and saddening at the same time. I won't even attempt to describe how and why Bill is mistaken, because:
1) It's already been said 2) He won't listen, anyway
But for anyone else who reads this thread looking for information regarding a clutch, transmission, or flywheel failure, the Fiero does not need or benefit from a transmission pilot bushing. If your engine does have one installed in the crankshaft, it's because the 2.5 liter 4-cyl was a common engine used in both FWD and RWD vehicles. Since the RWD transmissions needed a pilot bushing, the engine was designed to use one. This practice of building generic parts for several different vehicles is common in the auto industry, and often results in vehicles having unused or unusable features.
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08:17 PM
Hulki U. My-BFF Member
Posts: 5949 From: Back home in East Berlin, PA Registered: Apr 2008
Unbelievable, 4 pages of obstinate advocacy when the fact is that most manual transmissions Fieros do not have pilot bushing and on the basis of one catastrophic failure (of uncertain origin) we're asked to believe that all of them desperately need them.
P.S. I spend my money on new flywheel bolts before I installed a pilot bushing which for a fact my '84 never had in the first place.
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08:24 PM
Patrick Member
Posts: 37650 From: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada Registered: Apr 99
Real nice Jazz... the purpose of PM is a PRIVATE message to avoid public conflict.
A private message is PRIVATE and you violated the unwritten rule that you do not post them publicly unless you ask the other person for permission.
...
Interesting how it's only f*ckups who send insulting, degrading PMs who spout this "unwritten rule" bullsh!t.
Bill, up to this point I've been civil with you, mostly because I think you've gone completely off your rocker. However, after seeing the kind of crap you've sent to JazzMan when he's only trying to be helpful... well, screw that. From now on I'll treat you like any other two-bit troll.
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08:30 PM
ltlfrari Member
Posts: 5356 From: Wake Forest,NC,USA Registered: Jan 2002
Originally posted by 84Bill: The bushing did just that.. it extended from the crank some distance... how far I dont recall at this point.
Personally I think that whilst this motor may have had a bushing it had probably worked it's way out of the crank housing to some extent since if the shoulder of the input shaft was not reaching in all the way, there was really nothing to stop if working it's way out. So to some extent 84Bill is correct, however I think that if it was protruding out past the flywheel/crank end like that, any support it offered would have been negligible. Aren't pilot bushings made of oilite or some such thing? Not the strongest material in the world on it's own, especially if just protruding out from the crank end. I can't really see it taking any sideways load and maybe that's the real source of your problem, the bushing self destructed, cr*p got everywhere and grenaded the rest of it. Anyway, just my opinion as to what may or may not have been the situation with this setup. Not aimed at or against anyone.
And with that I (hopefully) retire from this mess of a post
Yeah, I thought my last post would get a rise out of you in particular.
quote
Originally posted by Patrick:
Interesting how it's only f*ckups who send insulting, degrading PMs who spout this "unwritten rule" bullsh!t.
For anyone not familiar with the kind of abusive PMs that Hulki U. My-BFF enjoys sending to fellow forum members, here's a link to A trashed thread where I posted a fine example of how Hulki U. My-BFF gets his rocks off.
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08:55 PM
cptsnoopy Member
Posts: 2585 From: phoenix, AZ, USA Registered: Jul 2003
For anyone not familiar with the kind of abusive PMs that Hulki U. My-BFF enjoys sending to fellow forum members, here's a link to A trashed thread where I posted a fine example of how Hulki U. My-BFF gets his rocks off.
Aww.....poor wittle Patwick.......the poor wittle victim. Shouldn't you be catching flies, toadboy?
[This message has been edited by Hulki U. My-BFF (edited 11-17-2008).]
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09:04 PM
PFF
System Bot
Hulki U. My-BFF Member
Posts: 5949 From: Back home in East Berlin, PA Registered: Apr 2008
I could but it would be a lot easier on both of us for you to do a quick beer run! I am a little guilty of gloating, my friend gave me a case of Corona's for doing an hours worth of work on her car. If you were here, or better yet all of you guys, there would be at least one or two beers each! ok, maybe for the first 10 to 20 to show up...
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09:29 PM
KurtAKX Member
Posts: 4008 From: West Bloomfield, MI Registered: Feb 2002
What do you guys use to pilot the clutch alignment tool to keep the clutch disc centered during assembly if you don't have a pilot bearing in there?
Well, on a V6 it slides into the end of the crank where the pilot bushing would be installed. The diameter of the tool is the same as what the OD of a Pilot bushing would be.
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09:51 PM
Will Member
Posts: 14250 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
What do you guys use to pilot the clutch alignment tool to keep the clutch disc centered during assembly if you don't have a pilot bearing in there?
There IS a bore in the back of the crankshaft... it's just not for a pilot bushing.
I AM an engineer. I work in the aerospace industry, where if it's not right the first time, millions of dollars of damage could result. GM's FWD manuals DO NOT REQUIRE pilot bushings. From the standpoint of shaft dynamics, three support points on a shaft is BAD NEWS. Front wheel drive transmissions already have two bearings supporting the input shaft. Installing a third support point could result in premature shaft failure.
Longitudinal transmissions only have a single bearing supporting the input shaft. They require pilot bushings so that the input shaft can have two support locations. The transverse transmissions have two bearings in the case. They do not require a pilot bushing and it can even be bad to install one.
GM's automatics require convertor pilots for alignment, NOT support.
Obviously no amount of rational discussion is going to stem the flow of poisonous misinformation from Bill, so just get rid of this thread already.
Why is this thread not in the trash can?
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09:56 PM
katatak Member
Posts: 7136 From: Omaha, NE USA Registered: Apr 2008
Anyway, I realize that this is not comparing apples to apples but I had to take pics of my muncie and V6. Here they are:
Input shaft w/ straight edge across bell housing: Straight edge on back of block - w/ crank: The alignment tool: In this pic, you may be able to see that the alignment tool is slightly larger in dia. than the input shaft. I also checked inside the crank (I have 5) Non have a pilot bushing and the alignment tool fits easily into the crank so on a V6, even if the input shaft did protrude far enough to reach the crank, it would fit in the hole in the crank with room to spare:
Before you go off blasting me, let me be clear, I have no idea what the Iron Duke crank or trans input shafts look like. I only post because I have not seen any pics proving the majorities view of "no pilot bushing required". Maybe someone will post pics of the Duke parts.
Pat
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10:07 PM
Will Member
Posts: 14250 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
There IS a bore in the back of the crankshaft... it's just not for a pilot bushing.
I hate to get technical but the bore really is intended for a pilot bushing since there are RWD applications for these engines.
I have reason to believe that there are fieros which had pilot bushings installed in them from the factory but never had any proof that the input shaft was long enough to actually inset into said bushing.
Edit: oops, dang you guys post fast!
[This message has been edited by Jefrysuko (edited 11-17-2008).]
