I finally got the 3.4 conversion installed. I wish I could say, "Done," but she won't start.

I've been trying to start the car, but it just turns over slowly and then bogs, then does the rattle/click thing like the battery is dead.

It acts like the starter is bad, but it is fairly new. The battery was fully charged, but maybe the connection is not good at the battery posts. I hate these screw-on type posts. I tried tightening it, then pulling it off to look for corrosion, then tightening it AGAIN, but it keeps doing the same thing. It actually spun fast for a couple seconds, then went back to the slow crank.

I messed with it so long that I need to charge the battery again.

I'll take a look underneath at the flexplate teeth to see if they are shiny between the teeth (starter too close to the flexplate), but I know I had the 1/8 gauge set before putting the engine back in the car.

Anyone had similar problems? I hate to pull the starter to have it tested. My RedTop battery isn't even a year old yet, so I don't think it is the problem.

On a side note, I have the engine ground wire bolted to the trunk lid hinge bolt like GM did it. Also, I'm not sure if I bolted the small neg wire coming off the battery post in the right spot. Right now it is bolted to the sheetmetal in front of the face of the battery near the battery hold-down. It doesn't seem right to me because I remember having more play in the thick neg cable. Right now it barely reaches the neg battery post.

I think I will have to pull the starter to have it checked, but dayum! It was tought getting it shimmed correctly when it was OUT of the car! Wahhhhhhh...

BTW, I hate these screw-on battery posts.

Thanks for any suggestions on the starting problems. I know I have some more work to do, It's just a bummer to finally get the 3.4 in the car to find there is something stopper her from GOING!

Andrew

I'm a bit confused where you put the grounds. The biggest ground cable off the battery goes to the block (not the head). The smaller black wire off the battery goes to the frame (doesn't matter exactly where as long as the connection is metal to metal).

The red positive cable goes directly to the starter. The smaller red wire goes to the power block under the C500.

You said "I have the engine ground wire bolted to the trunk lid hinge bolt like GM did it". I'm wondering if you are referring to the same flat braided wire I'm thinking of on the driver's side but just want to confirm it.

[This message has been edited by Hudini (edited 11-17-2008).]

I'd start with a known good battery. I believe others have had problems with the red tops. Never used on myself.

Make sure your ground wire from the battery to the block is also tight. The slow down in cranking sounds like either a bad battery or a poor connection that heats up and increases resistance.

Also I can confirm that the small ground wire on my 85Gt also attaches in front of the battery on the sheet metal. Make sure the surface is clean and bolt holds tight.

yes, it does sound mostly like a lack of electrical power. usual suspects: bad connections, bad battery, bad battery cables.
try using a 2nd vehicle for a jumpstart
try retarding the timing a little - makes for easier cranking
if you installed a new cam - this is severely affecting the break-in process

Thanks, Guys. It's the original cam and internals, so no break-in worries.

The thick battery cable goes to the head. I guess I should bolt it to the block for a solid ground, huh?

I will try scraping the paint away under both braided ground wire and the smaller one coming from the neg battery post. Maybe that will help.

The battery is still charging. I'll try jumping it with the Mach 1 in a bit, too, just to be sure.

More to come...

When I fired up my 3.4 the first time it would crank but would act like it just would not catch to turn over.
Stopped and rechecked my plug wires for the unteen time to be sure and I had two wires crossed from side to side. Turned them around and it fired right off. With them crossed it almost acted like it was not firing at all.

Get a solid ground to the engine block.

------------------



" DRIVE IT LIKE YOU LOVE IT"

Now that the battery is charged, I'll see if I can separate a few plug wires and check on that ground...

quote Originally posted by Saxman: The thick battery cable goes to the head. I guess I should bolt it to the block for a solid ground, huh?

Every Fiero I have ever seen has the battery ground cable going to a stud that replaces the head bolt that is nearest the right side hinge.
The 3.4 probably doesn't have that stud, but as long as the cable is securely bolted to cast iron, you should be good to go.

Is it possible that it's timed wrong, and the ignition advance is fighting the cranking? (Not very likely, but it can happen.)

My 85GT 3.4/2.8parts grounds on the head stud also.

quote Originally posted by Raydar: Every Fiero I have ever seen has the battery ground cable going to a stud that replaces the head bolt that is nearest the right side hinge. The 3.4 probably doesn't have that stud, but as long as the cable is securely bolted to cast iron, you should be good to go. Is it possible that it's timed wrong, and the ignition advance is fighting the cranking? (Not very likely, but it can happen.)

The timing is set to 0 right now. Should be good for starting, right? Perhaps I should advance it a little? -or look at the spark plug order one more time. I think the real problem is I'm not getting the starter to crank fast enough.

I know the ground bolt is secure on the head. I tried jumping the Formula using cables connected to my Mach 1, but only got the electric-sounding grinding noise. That was with no battery in the Formula. I don't think the jumper cables can get much of a grip on the cable ends because of the damn screw-in ends.

I'll give it a shot tomorrow with a fresh battery, jumper cables on the screwed-in battery terminals and maybe even a shot of starting fluid in the intake to see if perhaps it is a fuel-delivery problem. It's about to snow outside and I don't feel like messing with this bastard any more today.

Thanks for the help so far!

quote Originally posted by Saxman: The timing is set to 0 right now. Should be good for starting, right? Perhaps I should advance it a little? -or look at the spark plug order one more time. I think the real problem is I'm not getting the starter to crank fast enough. I know the ground bolt is secure on the head. I tried jumping the Formula using cables connected to my Mach 1, but only got the electric-sounding grinding noise. That was with no battery in the Formula. I don't think the jumper cables can get much of a grip on the cable ends because of the damn screw-in ends. I'll give it a shot tomorrow with a fresh battery, jumper cables on the screwed-in battery terminals and maybe even a shot of starting fluid in the intake to see if perhaps it is a fuel-delivery problem. It's about to snow outside and I don't feel like messing with this bastard any more today. Thanks for the help so far!

Don't bother with the starter fluid until you confirm there is a spark, that stuff is dangerous and you never know when you've used to much until you get that explosion from the intake. I have a friend that saw valve covers blown off an engine from excessive starter fluid use.

Another possible problem should the cranking issue be resolved and there is still a no start, the distributor may be 180 degrees off. If you line the timing gear marks up next to each other that should be TDC for cylinder #4, if you line them both up at 12 o'clock it's TDC for cylinder #1

Thanks, Joseph. I'll get someone out there to help me check for a spark. I did put a VERY small amount of starting spray in the intake. When I tried it, I heard two small poofs of air, but not one that increased the speed of the crank. Perhaps I am 180 degrees off. At least that means I have a spark (I think).

So, if I am 180 degrees off (meaning I set TDC on the wrong upstroke of the #1 cylinder), then my correct timing mark must be on the oppposite side of the harmonic balancer, right?

Also, when I turn my distributor, the plugs going into it will be facing away from cylinder #1, correct? I know it doesn't matter where those plugs face, but I just want to be sure I am doing the right thing when I turn the distributor.

BTW, I scraped paint away from the areas where both the braided engine ground and the smaller of the two battery ground wires meet the chassis. With a charged battery, the starter still cranked slowly 4 or 5 turns then bogged. Maybe I have that bastard too close. I'll jack her up yet again and check for shinyness between the flexplate teeth. What a ***** that will be if it is too close...

Thanks again!

Andrew

quote Originally posted by Saxman: Thanks, Joseph. I'll get someone out there to help me check for a spark. I did put a VERY small amount of starting spray in the intake. When I tried it, I heard two small poofs of air, but not one that increased the speed of the crank. Perhaps I am 180 degrees off. At least that means I have a spark (I think). So, if I am 180 degrees off (meaning I set TDC on the wrong upstroke of the #1 cylinder), then my correct timing mark must be on the oppposite side of the harmonic balancer, right? Also, when I turn my distributor, the plugs going into it will be facing away from cylinder #1, correct? I know it doesn't matter where those plugs face, but I just want to be sure I am doing the right thing when I turn the distributor. BTW, I scraped paint away from the areas where both the braided engine ground and the smaller of the two battery ground wires meet the chassis. With a charged battery, the starter still cranked slowly 4 or 5 turns then bogged. Maybe I have that bastard too close. I'll jack her up yet again and check for shinyness between the flexplate teeth. What a ***** that will be if it is too close... Thanks again! Andrew

The timing mark will be in the same location as cylinders 1 and 4 are at TDC at the same time except one is on the exhaust stroke and the other on the compression stroke. Remove the spark plug from cylinder 1 and identify its compression stroke, better yet partially screw the plug in and turn the crank by hand until you hear air being blown past the threads. After that bring the piston to the top and check your rotor position. If it is at cylinder #4 it's 180 deg off and simply need to remove the distributor retaining bolt and lift the distributor high enough to allow you to turn the rotor to cylinder 1.

As for a tight starter clearance, a quick test would be to loosen both starter bolts about 1 turn or so to give more clearance and see if it spins the engine over faster before taking it all the way off.

quote Originally posted by Joseph Upson: Hope you didn't forget to install a pilot bushing in the crank! Just kidding.

Now that's funny right there. I don't care who ya are!

So, there is no compression on the upstroke if it is not the right stroke, huh? Wish I'd realized that when I was looking for TDC the first time.

Good call with loosening the starter bolts. You da man, Joseph!

Just tossing out one other idea. Is it a new starter that was not run before? Possible bad new one?

The starter was replaced and ran fine with the last engine. Thanks!

did you paint your block and/or starter? if so did you tape off where the starter goes? if not scrape off the paint there.

as for timing, you should have it at 10 not 0 as it is really retarded useing the ECM ground just to get to 10 deg. (with the ecm running it is like 36degs) also the EASY way to see if you are 180 out or even off, 180 pull the plug wires off the cap and swap them 180, or if you are just off, pull them all and move them over one, try it, repeat.

------------------
"DRIVE IT LIKE A FIERO"
'84 Fiero, engine to be determined
'87Blue GT 3.4L Swap Completed!!!!!!!! Boosted!!!!!!!
Las Vegas Fiero Club
Fiero Road Club Of Northern Nevada

quote Originally posted by Saxman: The starter was replaced and ran fine with the last engine. Thanks!

Mine did too, but my last engine was a 2.8 with bad compression. How about yours? My old starter on my 3.4 conversion lasted about two trips and thankfully died at home(Amen). Then I replaced it with a "good" used starter that did great on a cold engine, but it would bog badly on a warm engine. So, I thought it just needed a new battery---wrong! I finally bought a NEW starter from O'Reilley's for a 3.1L Transport. Now it spins great! Maybe it's the age of the starter? Maybe it's the compression? Maybe it's the extra displacement? For me it was all three.

quote Originally posted by carnut122: Mine did too, but my last engine was a 2.8 with bad compression. How about yours? My old starter on my 3.4 conversion lasted about two trips and thankfully died at home(Amen). Then I replaced it with a "good" used starter that did great on a cold engine, but it would bog badly on a warm engine. So, I thought it just needed a new battery---wrong! I finally bought a NEW starter from O'Reilley's for a 3.1L Transport. Now it spins great! Maybe it's the age of the starter? Maybe it's the compression? Maybe it's the extra displacement? For me it was all three.

I know - anything could be the culprit. I have an old starter to use if this one is bad - plus the Advance Auto guarantee, but I'll try a few other things first, like changing the wires around, loosening the starter a bit, jumping it with the Mach 1, etc.

The engine only has 1500 miles on it, but the injectors weren't changed from the 130k Camaro injectors. The engine did start just fine before I pulled the engine, though. Compression should be OK, but I need to get it running to check that.

Say, is there anything wrong with running the car with the wires moved instead of turning the distributor 180 degrees? If I turn it, the wires/plugs at the base will be facing away from the back of the car. I can't think of a reason not to.

Thanks again, guys!

You're not going to turn the distributor, you're going to lift it to disengage the gears so that you can turn the rotor. The plugs coming out of the ignition module will be in the same place facing the trunk area if I understood you correctly. If you decide to rotate the wires around only without making sure the distributor is off, likely the worst that will happen is a backfire that may give you a heart attack if you're not in good shape.

[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 11-19-2008).]

quote Originally posted by sardonyx247: did you paint your block and/or starter? if so did you tape off where the starter goes? if not scrape off the paint there. as for timing, you should have it at 10 not 0 as it is really retarded useing the ECM ground just to get to 10 deg. (with the ecm running it is like 36degs) also the EASY way to see if you are 180 out or even off, 180 pull the plug wires off the cap and swap them 180, or if you are just off, pull them all and move them over one, try it, repeat.

Great points, sardonyx! The block was painted by Jasper. I drilled out the 3.4 starter holes, but I did not scrape the paint away. I take it that I need that contact to ground the starte.? I guess I can clamp jumper cables to the starter and the block and try starting it again to see if that makes any difference (before I remove the starter to scrape paint).

Joseph, I see what you are saying about turning the rotor - not the whole distibutor. Thanks for setting me straight. But, what would cause me to get a backfire from moving the wires to test for a misplaced distributor?

Another question. By turning the distributor clockwise, I advance the timing, right? If it is at 0 now, and the computer is retarding the timing even more as sardonyx mentioned, I really need to advance it a little before I try moving the plugs. Or at least ground out the ALDL plug so computer doesn't retard it even more.

Thanks again, guys. If I didn't have your help, this car would have disappeared over a cliff two days ago!

(edited to add: did you mention a backfire because I could be putting the wires on backwards if they are already correct?)

[This message has been edited by Saxman (edited 11-19-2008).]

you better get that done before I get there this weekend! I wanna see/hear it!

quote Originally posted by Saxman: Great points, sardonyx! The block was painted by Jasper. I drilled out the 3.4 starter holes, but I did not scrape the paint away. I take it that I need that contact to ground the starte.? I guess I can clamp jumper cables to the starter and the block and try starting it again to see if that makes any difference (before I remove the starter to scrape paint). Joseph, I see what you are saying about turning the rotor - not the whole distibutor. Thanks for setting me straight. But, what would cause me to get a backfire from moving the wires to test for a misplaced distributor? Another question. By turning the distributor clockwise, I advance the timing, right? If it is at 0 now, and the computer is retarding the timing even more as sardonyx mentioned, I really need to advance it a little before I try moving the plugs. Or at least ground out the ALDL plug so computer doesn't retard it even more. Thanks again, guys. If I didn't have your help, this car would have disappeared over a cliff two days ago! (edited to add: did you mention a backfire because I could be putting the wires on backwards if they are already correct?)

If you are at 0 timing WITHOUT the ECM grounded, it won't start. It has to be 10 WITH the ecm grounded. When the ECM is grounded it does not ADVANCE the spark. With the ECM advance it puts it about 30 BTC, with out the ecm controling it (grounded) should be 10.

And dont really worry about backfire, if you are moving the wires around the cap. If it back fires, move the wires again, you can tell when you are getting closer.

Yeah try the jumper cable to ground the starter.

If you think this is bad, as soon as I went to try to start mine after the turbo, my ignition lock broke on the first start try. so I had to fix that before I could even "try" it. Remember it can always be worse, so look at the brighter side of it. (you could still have a 2.8)

BTW here is another good test, if it wont start, and then you ground the ECM and it wont start, then you timing is proably way off. as I was saying before the ECM will vary the timing 20+ degs. so If it wont start grounded or ungrounded then you are way off timing. But get it to spin good(starter) before trying to chase down timing.

If you still have problem and you want to see if the engine is fighting the starter, you can always pull the plugs to releive the compression. this is more of a down the road step if none of this works.

------------------
"DRIVE IT LIKE A FIERO"
'84 Fiero, engine to be determined
'87Blue GT 3.4L Swap Completed!!!!!!!! Boosted!!!!!!!
Las Vegas Fiero Club
Fiero Road Club Of Northern Nevada

This is just a thought.....have you checked for any fluid (coolant or otherwise) in the cylinders? I do agree as above...get the starter spinning faster before you worry about the other stuff (might need to bench-test it). Good idea about removing all the plugs first and then trying to crank over.....might help narrow down the problem......starter or timing or (gasp!) hydraulic lock?

quote Originally posted by rjblaze: This is just a thought.....have you checked for any fluid (coolant or otherwise) in the cylinders? I do agree as above...get the starter spinning faster before you worry about the other stuff (might need to bench-test it). Good idea about removing all the plugs first and then trying to crank over.....might help narrow down the problem......starter or timing or (gasp!) hydraulic lock?

You'll go to Hell just for suggesting that!

Seriously - thanks for offering some more help. I should find some time to get to these things tomorrow night or Friday.

You'll go to Hell just for suggesting that! :

I know....I know....I was spanking myself (and liking it BTW) right after I posted the reply. Just wanted you NOT to go thru what I went thru (very similar issues) when I had a CPI 4.3 Vortec (with a severe internal fuel pressure regulator leak) go "BOOM" when I finally got it to "fire" after a slow-spinning starter (I thought) issue. Lots of extra fuel in intake + closed cylinder environment = "BOOM" due to hydraulic lock!

quote Originally posted by rjblaze: . Lots of extra fuel in intake + closed cylinder environment = "BOOM" due to hydraulic lock!

Its called a Hydrostatic Lock, or was when I was going to school at a GM training center in Garland Texas.
Joe

OK - nominate me for the Darwin Awards. I guess I should have taken a longer look at this:



I had the number one plug going to the number 5 cylinder. One good things is that I checked them again - but AFTER I turned the distributor gears 180 degrees. Then (while mad at myself), I put the correct plugs on the correct wires.

SHE STARTED! She idles at 2000 RPM for a minute, then when I revved the engine, she came down to a normal idle speed.

I let her smoke away for a few minutes so the silicone spray sealing on the header wrap could cure a bit, and then trouble.

First I head rubber binding - the only way I can describe it. It sounded like two big rubber innertubes were rubbing together. Then the really scary sound a few seconds later. It sounded like a screw was bouncing around in a small dryer. Mix that with the sound of a hubcap before it stops spinning on the ground.

That was it. I shut her down and came in here to give you guys the good and the bad news.

I'm going to look around at what might hopefully be a broken alternator or compressor belt - but I don't know why the bolt-in-a-dryer sound would come from that.

It's an automatic, but it sounded like a bolt was rolling around somewhere. I am sure I tightened all the flexplate bolts... -Oh **** . I don't remember connecting the torque converter bolts to the flexplate. DAMMIT! I gotta go look. I hope I didn't break anything if I did forget. The engine didn't bog (other than the rubber-rubbing sound, so maybe I will be OK. More to come. Shiite!!!!

[This message has been edited by Saxman (edited 11-21-2008).]

Hope it's nothing serious!..

Hummm didn't someone at the very beginning say something about plug wires being switched?

quote Originally posted by Dodgerunner: Hope it's nothing serious!.. Hummm didn't someone at the very beginning say something about plug wires being switched?

Yes, but I assumed that I had them correct. Don't we all? Especially after putting them on twice. I just don't know how I did it with the drawing right in front of me.

If you also remember - I forgot the damn torque converter bolts, so that shows how I am, huh?

Like I said - the engine didn't lose any RPM's while the noise was going on. The rattling-bolt noise seemed to come from the waterpump-side of the engine - not the back where the torque converter is.

I just got one of the TC bolts on, so I'm spinning it one tooth at a time with the screwdriver to get to the other two.

Gotta get this done! MarineFiero is coming over in the morning to swap out his engine and I can't let him see an Air Force failure!

Dayum!

[This message has been edited by Saxman (edited 11-21-2008).]

Well at least it's not at 30K ft. up..

Nah the Air Force doesn't usually fail. They just do some work then the Marines come in and do the hard stuff and finish the job.

That will not, however, be happening in this case because I wouldn't know my ass from my elbow on that engine. You'll be the one schooling me tomorrow!

Phewwwww... No noise after getting the torque converter bolts on there. That was a b*tch. Put on one TC bolt loosely (so the others would go into the threads), turn the crank by prying one tooth at a time with a screw driver, put in another loose bolt, turn flexplate again, tighten in the bot, turn it twice AGAIN and tighten the loose bolts.

It was worth it, though. She fired right up.

Soooooo - there is a squeeky/annoying rattle/squeek coming from the exhaust. I can see the catalytic converter bouncing up and down. I don't remember any type of exhause hanger there, but it sure needs one now. It's one of those embarrassing sounds you make fun of when you hear it coming from the car beside you - ya know?

There is also a sligh miss. I can just hear the low bass-drum sounding hits coming out of the exhaust pipe. I plan to run some fuel injector cleaner through to see if that helps. These injectors have 130k on them even though the engine only has 1,500 miles. We'll see.

Anyway, you guys were a huge help. Too bad it took so long for me to help myself. I haven't mentioned it yet, but I think the low cranking speed was because of the screw-on battery posts. I put some WD-40 on them after I bolted them down and the voltage was fine. Then, the threads on the positive post let go and I can't get it past finger-tight now. I'm going out after a new bolt for it tonight. I amm sure the WD-40 gave it a better connection. I hope it lasts.

Bring it on, MarineFiero. We have a 2.8 of yours to install! Make sure I put all the bolts back in when we are done. If there are any left over, we have more work to do!

Congrads Saxman!!
Joe

quote Originally posted by Saxman: Yes, but I assumed that I had them correct. Don't we all?

Isn't is funny how having something totally right and totally wrong feel exactly the same?

quote Originally posted by Saxman: Damn - I even mentioned putting the TC bolts back on in this post on my 3.4 thead! I still forgot to put them one -Dohh! https://www.fiero.nl/forum/F...L/087543-6.html#p210

Don't feel too bad. You're not alone.
When I rebuilt and swapped in my 3.4 I was so pleased with myself when it fired right up first try.
I did the "Happy Dance" and strutted around the garage while the wife watched me yelling: "Who Da Man?".."Who Da Man?"
And then it happened......CLATTER CLATTER CLATTER...PING!!
Turned the key off as fast as I could and by then the wife, (who knows nothing about cars), is standing by the passenger side of the engine bay looking down, sarcastically saying:
"Ummm...Excuse me Mr. Man, is *this* supposed to be like it is?"
She was pointing to the water pump pulley that I had neglected to tighten the 4 bolts on and was now sitting cockeyed with all 4 bolts almost out
She mumbled something about "Pride going before a fall", or something like that, and wandered back into the house...
10 minutes later the water pump pulley was properly secured and no damage to it, the pump or the new belt.
My ego took a few more days to heal up though.