quote Originally posted by jscott1: Not fatal, but it will affect engine performance.

And many thousand of our little cars are running around with rusted out tin cans and doing just fine. It's the other parts on our cars that are rusting out that create the real problems.
I like your melted "toilet bowl float". Gets a little warm in the engine compartment doesn't it?

quote Originally posted by jscott1: Ah the voice of reason... I wanted to give you a plus but I already had. I can tell you from experience, (when my aftermarket vacuum canister was mounted too close to the exhaust and failed), that the worst that will happen is that you will get a sucking vacuum leak and some driveability issues.

No flame or arguement intended, and i respect your opinion jon (even though you apparently don't respect mine) - but before you start giving out accolades let me offfer some things for everyone to consider:

1. That was NOT the voice of reason. What happens when the home-made vacuum canister fails in heavy traffic or during a long trip - how many hours do you need to drive with "drivability issues" before you do the job over again (to fix it properly) and what is it doing to the engine internals in the meantime ? Even better, what happens when it fails during rain, snow, or driving on wet or dirty roads ? Debris and dirty water gets sucked into the engine and it may be time for a rebuild.

2. I guess you're lucky that the plastic / rubber piece you used didn't catch fire. What happens if you had to drive a longer distance and it either DID catch fire or melted all over the place ? Since it is over a vacuum, what happens if small pieces break off and get sucked into the engine ?

3. i think this whole topic sends the wrong message and i'm disappointed to see it confirmed by someone that people look up to. These are cars, not toys, and there is a lot at stake. I've seen guys post threads here about replacing factory headlights with driving lights; replacing taillights with white centers that shine white light rearward into traffic; replacing blown fusable links with pieces of wire. In General, people should NOT be encouraged to use home-made fixes to repair or modify their cars. Most people have no way to know design considerations or the short and long-term consequences. if someone has a problem, it should be fixed with a stock replacement OR Better part - period. Any question or uncertainty, then use a stock replacement. Even improperly installed fog lights can cause a fire or battery drain.

So anyone can simply overlook or dismiss any of the things I mentioned (some of them twice) and think that (1) i'm some pompous californian a$$hole and they don't like me anyway or (2) it won't happen to them. Hell, if you can't give (+) to other people than sling a few (-) at me for general purposes.

But i hope I've given some reasons for people to stop and think before they start dinking with their cars.

Same here, I'm not looking for trouble.
I guess I'm failing to see, just how big a piece of debris, can be sucked down that eigth inch diameter tube, that is going to hurt an engine at all, let alone call for a rebuild. Or how much water for that fact, unless you were that deep in water. If that is the case, you have another problem.
How long will it take, for the new can to rust out, causing one to have to do it over again? Another 20 something years?

Yes he was lucky the plastic did not ignite. But just driving a car down the road, one could pick up crap, say a shopping bag, that could end up in the compartment on the exhaust. Any number of things for that matter. Once again, if the plastic vacuum canister broke into a thousand pieces, what would make its way into the engine? It would have to be something very tiny, and plastic, which I'm guessing, would vaporize as soon as it made it to the combustion chamber.

I do agree with you. I have seen some bad ideas on here myself, but replacing an old rusty tin can, for a new tin can, is not one of them. I just can't think up any secenario, where the can failing, or the tube falling completely off, will cause a wreck, or prevent someone from making it home.

By the way, what are the guys that build kit/custom cars suppose to do, when there are no quidelines to follow, when bulilding a custom vehicle?

Kevin

[This message has been edited by Lambo nut (edited 01-10-2009).]

+ to Black GT for the great write up!

Now I'm certainly not trying to lecture, and Paul, while I do see your point I hardly think this was the proper thread in which to demonstrate your angst. I know you said you weren't trying to be personally critical or insulting but you did in essence, question the intelligence and common sense of every non-engineer member of this forum that has ever made an unprecidented modification to their car. And in reference to your comment about, "juice-can" guys and those engineers with the ability to take into consideration, all of the design aspects of a given assembly, I'd just like to say that on January 28th, 1986 at 11:39am EDT, the engineers of one of the most complicated machines in the world failed to take into consideration the design of a simple, rubber O-ring. It cost seven people their lives. The point I'm trying to make is that mistakes can be made by anyone, regardless of knowledge or education.

I seriously doubt that Black GT Codde's simple soup can, were it to fail, would have such devastating effects.

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My Fiero ate an import. No, seriously.

quote Originally posted by PaulJK: No flame or arguement intended, and i respect your opinion jon (even though you apparently don't respect mine) - but before you start giving out accolades let me offfer some things for everyone to consider:

Whoa.... calm down. Take a deep breath, and relax.

You make some good points, and please don't extrapolate one example into a general law.

You are correct that cars are not toys, and if, (and when) a car fails it can be serious, especially if it occurs at an inopportune time. I personally have been stranded on the side of the road more times than I can remember. As a result of some mod that I made? Who knows, maybe.

But unless you are Ohio Indy and your car is 100% factory stock, most likely some mod has been made which may or may not alter the fit, form or function of the original part.

But having said all that, I think the Vacuum canister is generally regarded as safe. In my case the canister was mounted in a safe location when the car was a 4 cylinder, but after the car got a V8 the crossover pipe was running a bit too close. My car is still in shakedown mode until these little issues are resolved. I will not be taking it on any long trips until I am sure that it is 100% safe.

If you are excessively concerned about making a mod which compromises safety then you need to keep your car 100% factory stock or only allow certified technicians to work on it and only install factory authorized parts.

If we were talking about Brakes or steering components, I would totally agree with you. Critical systems in which failure can lead to a wreck should not be taken lightly.

Oh and for the record I have already awarded a "+" to you Paul, apparently I do value your opinion.

[This message has been edited by jscott1 (edited 01-11-2009).]

quote Originally posted by Lambo nut: .... I just can't think up any secenario, where the can failing, or the tube falling completely off, will cause a wreck, or prevent someone from making it home.

quote Originally posted by PaulJK: .... what happens when it fails during rain, snow, or driving on wet or dirty roads ? Debris and dirty water gets sucked into the engine and it may be time for a rebuild.

Dirt, water, or dirty water (or debris) getting sucked into the engine could easily prevent you from making it home [unless you wanna say you never drive far from home; i go anywhere, anytime, in my cars; most recently 6 hours to the SF Bay area and 6 hours back, with a LOT of deserted highway in between]. This could also cause the need for an engine rebuild. If you're not worried about this (dirt inside the engine and cylinders), then why not run without an air cleaner ? - same thing, smaller scale. how much dirt can you suck into the cylinders before the engine fails ?! - i'm not willing to find out - but you guys may be. And my point about "doing over again" did not mean that the juice can would do its job long enough to rust out.

I'm not gonna try to convince anyone - maybe we just disagree. An engineeering mistake (or poor management at NASA) has Nothing to do with rigging fixes or band-aiding your car, which is Asking for trouble - in either repeat maintenance (to do it right), breakdown, causing the need for major repair or injury.

Do whatever you want - good luck with it.

[This message has been edited by PaulJK (edited 01-11-2009).]

I actually think the tomato or fruit juice can is an improvement over the original GM cans. At least the juice cans are coated inside, which helps prevent rust from forming on the inside of the can. I think it'd probably last longer.

quote Originally posted by PaulJK: If you're not worried about this (dirt inside the engine and cylinders), then why not run without an air cleaner ? And my point about "doing over again" did not mean that the juice can would do its job long enough to rust out.

Well, the air filter is protecting a much larger hole then the line going to the vacuum canister would ever be. And still, how much water is going to make its way into an eight inch vacuum line, even if laying disconnected under the deck lid, going down the highway at 60 mph during a driving rain storm? It would be a mist in the engine compartment at best. You make it sound like it is going to be submerged in a puddle of a never ending supply of dirty, water, or dirty water.

What else would happen other then rust out? How else is all your debris going to get in the line, unless the can rusts out, and starts to fall apart?

I wasn't inclined to take your vote, but at the moment, I'm leaning towards number 1, because once again, in this case, replacing one old rusted out tin can for a new clean tin can, is not a "band-aiding your car" fix.

Kevin

Agree or disagree you have to admit we have had some fun discussing a tin can. And nobody got banned.

I really like the idea and ingenuity of using the juice can.
Looked like allot of fun putting it together and making it look stock. Plus to you for posting it+
When I did my swap it was days and days of doing fun stuff like this and I now miss it.
Sorry for the troll stuff you endured posting your achievement..

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Red 1988 GT 5 speed
Poly all around, Koni's & Lowered
LQ1 powered

quote Originally posted by PaulJK: Dirt, water, or dirty water (or debris) getting sucked into the engine could easily prevent you from making it home [unless you wanna say you never drive far from home; i go anywhere, anytime, in my cars; most recently 6 hours to the SF Bay area and 6 hours back, with a LOT of deserted highway in between]. This could also cause the need for an engine rebuild. If you're not worried about this (dirt inside the engine and cylinders), then why not run without an air cleaner ? - same thing, smaller scale. how much dirt can you suck into the cylinders before the engine fails ?! - i'm not willing to find out - but you guys may be. And my point about "doing over again" did not mean that the juice can would do its job long enough to rust out. I'm not gonna try to convince anyone - maybe we just disagree. An engineeering mistake (or poor management at NASA) has Nothing to do with rigging fixes or band-aiding your car, which is Asking for trouble - in either repeat maintenance (to do it right), breakdown, causing the need for major repair or injury. Do whatever you want - good luck with it.

Molehill /= mountain

I think you're blowing this way, way out of proportion and essentially stirring up a tempest in a teapot.

The only difference between the tin can that Pontiac engineers chose to use for the Fiero reservoir and the tin cans used above is that the one that Pontiac used wasn't delivered with juice in it. Pontiac's engineers did an engineering analysis on that application and found it sound, otherwise it would not have been validated. I don't know why you're going off on this but you need to step back for a moment and take a deep breath. I can tell you that based on my knowledge and familiarity with not only the Fiero but many other cars that even a catastrophic failure of the vacuum reservoir isn't going to affect the safety of the vehicle. All it will do is make the cruise either quit working (big deal, that's what the gas pedal is for and if cruise not working was a safety issue then non-cruise cars are ticking time bombs) or not work perfectly when driving in the mountains.

As far as debris getting sucked into the engine, that's a red herring too. Literally almost 100% of the V6 Fieros still on the road have an EGR solenoid whose internal filter turned to dust long ago. The same can be said for the filter on the cruise dump solenoid; yes, did you know there's supposed to be a filter on the bottom nipple of the dump solenoid? When is the last time you saw an intact filter? All those thousands and thousands of cars driving without those two small filters, to no ill effect.

It's not an issue.

Not even close...

Breathe in, breathe out...

JazzMan

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: All those thousands and thousands of cars driving without those two small filters...

...

OH MY GAWD, THERE NEEDS TO BE AN IMMEDIATE RECALL !!!!!!!!!!

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: Molehill /= mountain I think you're blowing this way, way out of proportion and essentially stirring up a tempest in a teapot. The only difference between the tin can that Pontiac engineers chose to use for the Fiero reservoir and the tin cans used above is that the one that Pontiac used wasn't delivered with juice in it. Pontiac's engineers did an engineering analysis on that application and found it sound, otherwise it would not have been validated. I don't know why you're going off on this but you need to step back for a moment and take a deep breath. I can tell you that based on my knowledge and familiarity with not only the Fiero but many other cars that even a catastrophic failure of the vacuum reservoir isn't going to affect the safety of the vehicle. All it will do is make the cruise either quit working (big deal, that's what the gas pedal is for and if cruise not working was a safety issue then non-cruise cars are ticking time bombs) or not work perfectly when driving in the mountains. As far as debris getting sucked into the engine, that's a red herring too. Literally almost 100% of the V6 Fieros still on the road have an EGR solenoid whose internal filter turned to dust long ago. The same can be said for the filter on the cruise dump solenoid; yes, did you know there's supposed to be a filter on the bottom nipple of the dump solenoid? When is the last time you saw an intact filter? All those thousands and thousands of cars driving without those two small filters, to no ill effect. It's not an issue. Not even close... Breathe in, breathe out... JazzMan

Edit: You forgot to mention the imploding supernova effect of the failed vacuum canister juice can.... He and his car would suddenly disappear and create an intense gravitational field...

Whoa, Jazzman... ?!? Where you been? I wanted to PM you and couldn't... I got it covered now, but how ya been?

BTW, nice work on the soup can! Also, I didn't see what kind of heating element (solder iron, torch, etc) you attempted to solder it with, but I've had really good results using a propane torch, plumbing flux, and plumbing solder, just as if you were repairing/joining your copper water pipes in your house. I've repaired 3 radiators using that, and it works great & flows nicely, whereas the rosin core solder mainly used in electronics doesn't flow as well. From the pics, it looks like your flo-temp solder is more geared towards electronics. Plumbing flux & solder is super-de-duper cheap at Wally world, and so is a canister of propane. If you don't already have a torch tip, that's the only thing that would cost you more than $5. I give you a + for ingenuity!


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Journal of a concept: http://southeastfieros.com >>> Build Thread >>> Parts thread (for project funding)

[This message has been edited by fieroboom (edited 01-12-2009).]

Well, i stated my opinion and after the postings with jon this thread started heading for the trash can. People who had NOT posted now wanna jump in and tell me how wrong i am; give out (+)'s when they had NO prior interest. Like a bunch of high schoolers playing "pile-on' at the playground.

Did any one even say "wow - that was a nice to gesture to buy the original poster the CORRECT part" ? THAT says volumes.

There's no need for more LONG critques (jazzman) that echo sentiments that have already been posted.

i posted my opinion (and enjoyed a brief discussion with someone whose opinion i VALUE) and tried to help out a member in need. so screw the rest of you guys if you don't like it.

quote Originally posted by PaulJK: Do whatever you want - good luck with it.

quote Originally posted by Larryh86GT: Agree or disagree you have to admit we have had some fun discussing a tin can. And nobody got banned.

Not yet but he's working on it.
Life in a vacuum must be nice.

[This message has been edited by CC Rider (edited 01-12-2009).]

quote The only difference between the tin can that Pontiac engineers chose to use for the Fiero reservoir and the tin cans used above is that the one that Pontiac used wasn't delivered with juice in

Bingo! The cruise vacuum reservoir is identical to a steel juice can. They can still be found but most juice now comes in plastic bottles these days.

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" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, 3.4" Pulley, N* TB, LS1 MAF, Flotech Exhaust Autolite 104's Custom CAI 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
87GT - 3.4L Turbocharged engine, modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

quote Originally posted by PaulJK: Did any one even say "wow - that was a nice to gesture to buy the original poster the CORRECT part" ? THAT says volumes.

I didn't see the point, since he already had what he needed to do the job anyway.

He'd been better off to send him the cash, to fill his tank up with gas. Much better use of the money the way I see it.

Kevin

[This message has been edited by Lambo nut (edited 01-12-2009).]

OK!! I think bome of you missed the point. PaulJK tried to help out a fellow Fiero enthusiast and was willing to pay for a part that I offered to BlackGT Coddy. I was going to just split the shipping cost with PaulJK as I have 2 non rusted vacuum cans and need neither of them.

I think that most of the responders need to step back and just say" WHAT A NICE THING TO DO TO HELP OUT A FIERO ENTHUSIAST" NOT JUMP ALL OVER THE SIMPLE ACT OF KINDNESS THAT WAS OFFERED.

BlackGT Coddy sent me a very nice email thanking me for the offer and refusing the part in the nicest way he could. Money had nothing to do with his refusal.

SO the next time someone does something NICE for someone THINK before STICKING YOU HEADS WERE THE SUN DOESN"T SHINE.

GOOD on You PaulJK


Joe Sokol

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85 SE Daily driver with a 3.4 DOHC build underway
88 Formula/GT 4.9 Allante Intake (My Baby)

anyone know how i can close this thread....
yes they did offer to pay for a new canister shipped to me. i thought it was very nice of them
i will be posting a plus to both of them for the offer but i really did not needa new canister
thank you for the offer.
it shows that you guys really care for your fellow fiero owners.
i apologize if my part is shabby, in the future or now or anytime at all.
i know what they were trying to tell me. and i get the point too.
i just know that my car is not a show car and does not run in its current condition.
(fuel pump)aka[pain in the ***]
i figured this would work in a pinch. i was only a few moments away from getting my motor put all together and needed a quick part.
so just thought id share what i did.
to the question about me soldering the lid:
i did not use solder at all during this application.
i yanked all the tin from around the fitting and used rtv to seal it to the can.[500 degree rtv]
i feel confident in my craftmanship for the job that this can will be doing. so i apologize to paul and king
for any flaming thrown their way and anyone else involved too.
im not blaming anyone.
i am thanking everyone for defending me too.
thank you
sincerely: codde

[This message has been edited by BlackGT Codde (edited 01-13-2009).]

quote Originally posted by Fieroking: OK!! I think bome of you missed the point. PaulJK tried to help out a fellow Fiero enthusiast and was willing to pay for a part that I offered to BlackGT Coddy. I was going to just split the shipping cost with PaulJK as I have 2 non rusted vacuum cans and need neither of them. I think that most of the responders need to step back and just say" WHAT A NICE THING TO DO TO HELP OUT A FIERO ENTHUSIAST" NOT JUMP ALL OVER THE SIMPLE ACT OF KINDNESS THAT WAS OFFERED. BlackGT Coddy sent me a very nice email thanking me for the offer and refusing the part in the nicest way he could. Money had nothing to do with his refusal. SO the next time someone does something NICE for someone THINK before STICKING YOU HEADS WERE THE SUN DOESN"T SHINE. GOOD on You PaulJK Joe Sokol

Wow. Good thing you guys didn't see my radiator fiberglassing job...
The gesture was very nice, but for naught, and seemed (to me, anyway) insulting, because 1) He didn't need it, and 2) It was never asked for.
I'm glad that people here are so willing to help, but it's a little irritating when someone is trying to customize or make something work, and they get continually shot down.
If you want to help a fellow enthusiast, then send some $ to 86fakegt to assist with his handicap controls.
That's my input, anyway.

i dont blame em just look at what hes doing with his 3.4 exhuast in the next thread over
if you saw my car youd know why hes a bit upset.
and that pple can be on others nerves sometimes too.