Use 1/2" header flanges if you can. Don't use less than 3/8" at a last resort. I'm using 1 5/8" primaries with my 3800 and the V-bands do make assembly a lot easier. If you use V-bands, be sure to leave one pipe slightly protruding and the other slightly recessed so that they can easily be located with reference to each other. Otherwise, try to find the Vbands that have the ridge in one so they can be fit together. You will be happy you did once you start assembling and disassembling during mock up.

The flex as JU said will help reduce cracking and allow a place for expansion when the pipes get hot.

My headers. Again, small sacrifices made due to space constraints, but a general idea of what I was able to do within my jobless budget and limited skills/tools.

Wow! That is a clean setup. I see the expansion joint in there. Any idea where to get V-band joints...the clamps are all over e-bay. My FOCOA headers / crossover are V-band and the ones I got witht them are missing the bolts. These flanges do not appear to be "indexed" as you mention...is there supposed to be some sort of gasket between the flanges (these are flat)? If so, then we need to leave some room for them when mocking my new turbo cross-over.

quote Originally posted by Jncomutt: Use 1/2" header flanges if you can. Don't use less than 3/8" at a last resort. I'm using 1 5/8" primaries with my 3800 and the V-bands do make assembly a lot easier. If you use V-bands, be sure to leave one pipe slightly protruding and the other slightly recessed so that they can easily be located with reference to each other. Otherwise, try to find the Vbands that have the ridge in one so they can be fit together. You will be happy you did once you start assembling and disassembling during mock up. The flex as JU said will help reduce cracking and allow a place for expansion when the pipes get hot. My headers. Again, small sacrifices made due to space constraints, but a general idea of what I was able to do within my jobless budget and limited skills/tools.

What kind of inlet temps have you measured so far? If I hadn't gone with such large primaries it would have been easier for me to use merge collectors instead of having to make my own. Your setup looks excellent. On my forged build up I may switch to a single turbo.

[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 01-21-2009).]

I shut the pump off during cruise on the highway or driving to class, etc in which case I've seen up to 100*. When the pump is running, the highest temp I've seen is in the 70s, and that's 18psi, back to back runs. Whether I beat on it or just make a few passes here and there it really likes to stay in the 70s.

Now, last time I took the car out was 12/28 and the air was about 40* outside. In this case, full boost runs only got in the 60s. This is when I determined that my clutch will no longer support 4th gear pulls. I already ordered a custom spec unit and hopefully we'll see what temps I can get up to on 20+psi.

quote Originally posted by Jncomutt: I shut the pump off during cruise on the highway or driving to class, etc in which case I've seen up to 100*. When the pump is running, the highest temp I've seen is in the 70s, and that's 18psi, back to back runs. Whether I beat on it or just make a few passes here and there it really likes to stay in the 70s. Now, last time I took the car out was 12/28 and the air was about 40* outside. In this case, full boost runs only got in the 60s. This is when I determined that my clutch will no longer support 4th gear pulls. I already ordered a custom spec unit and hopefully we'll see what temps I can get up to on 20+psi.

How are you getting cooler intake charge air than ambient suggesting greater than 100% intercooler cooling efficiency.?

Water to air is commonly more than 100% efficent with extremely cold coolant.

This summer when I spray meth its going to be practically snowing in my intake..

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: Water to air is commonly more than 100% efficent with extremely cold coolant.

That I'm aware of.

quote Originally posted by Jncomutt: This summer when I spray meth its going to be practically snowing in my intake..

You didn't answer my question. I know you're not driving around with a trunk full of ice water.
Wait, I mistakenly read 12/28 as your temps instead of the date. 20 deg above ambient is pretty good.

[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 01-21-2009).]

quote Originally posted by Joseph Upson: If I understood what I've read on the subject correctly, water/meth becomes less effective as intercooler efficiency increases, no?

From my experience, I have seen it decrease power in situations where intake temps are nominal. The inharent combustion characteristics of alcohols at low compression ratios requires some techniques other than just a ton of boost... While fancy timing changes can correct this, you can basically only recover from the negitive effect that this alcohol has, and not gain from it.

Straight water has better cooling characteristics, but it displaces more fuel than a alcohol rich injection and you cant "gain back" that power your losing due to displacement in the combustion chamber. In both cases straight water or any type of meth injection, you are going to lose displacement because you just dont have the compression ratio to gain significantly enough from the fact you are knock free, and the power gains are minimal anyway.

At the end of the day, save the $150 for the meth kit, and get a few gallons of race gas.. you are going to be picking up tons more horsepower in any situations, no matter how efficent the IC is, the outside temperature, ect, and you gain back displacement by having a efficent fuel in your cyinders.

[This message has been edited by darkhorizon (edited 01-21-2009).]

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: From my experience, I have seen it decrease power in situations where intake temps are nominal. The inharent combustion characteristics of alcohols at low compression ratios requires some techniques other than just a ton of boost... While fancy timing changes can correct this, you can basically only recover from the negitive effect that this alcohol has, and not gain from it. Straight water has better cooling characteristics, but it displaces more fuel than a alcohol rich injection and you cant "gain back" that power your losing due to displacement in the combustion chamber. In both cases straight water or any type of meth injection, you are going to lose displacement because you just dont have the compression ratio to gain significantly enough from the fact you are knock free, and the power gains are minimal anyway. At the end of the day, save the $150 for the meth kit, and get a few gallons of race gas.. you are going to be picking up tons more horsepower in any situations, no matter how efficent the IC is, the outside temperature, ect, and you gain back displacement by having a efficent fuel in your cyinders.

Then my understanding is correct. My goal is to use pump gas only so unless my front mount intercooler is effective enough to bring air intake temps within 20 degrees of ambient I still stand to gain more with the use of my injection kit along with the IC than what I would loose by displacing a small amount of fuel for the meth mixture. In 85 deg weather my intake temps are at 212 F at 7 psi and about mid grade fuel so there is a good possibility I can reach 15 psi on premium combined with the intercooler provided I can take 100 deg of heat out of the inlet air at 7 psi. If that works out without the use of the injection kit I may be able to get another 3-4 psi by adding it after the fact. I have a variable controller with my kit and can use it to deliver a smaller average percentage than what a non adjustble system would allow for proper effectiveness over the selected boost range.

I'm not really using it as an intercooler in the form of cooling the intake charge further. The methanol will effectively increase the octane and allow me to run 25psi on 93 pump gas. It is a very good knock suppressant. If I can keep knock at bay by the use of the meth and my 1000whp capable IC, I don't see why I won't be able to 20psi on the street daily.

Damn, 212F? What lil guy turbo you have on that thing. OR are you non-intercooled?

[This message has been edited by Jncomutt (edited 01-21-2009).]

quote Originally posted by Jncomutt: I'm not really using it as an intercooler in the form of cooling the intake charge further. The methanol will effectively increase the octane and allow me to run 25psi on 93 pump gas. It is a very good knock suppressant. If I can keep knock at bay by the use of the meth and my 1000whp capable IC, I don't see why I won't be able to 20psi on the street daily. Damn, 212F? What lil guy turbo you have on that thing. OR are you non-intercooled?

Twin T3 .60 compressors and no intercooler yet. Still not bad for 9.8:1 compression. The Low boost level is in the low efficiency island.

There is a formula that calculates the amount of octane increase... and it went something like this.

Lets assume that HALF the fuel you are spraying is pure meth for sake of arguement. The commonly accepted octane rating of this is somewhere in the 120's, so we will round up for sake of argument...

92 octane + 125 octane = 217 / 2 = 108

Now thats a decent octane boost, but i highly doubt you are spraying that type of meth and leaning out your injectors to half what they should be....

So realistically, we are doing a 10-15% injection on the high end, and the effective octane of the meth is 120 (even though it doesnt even come close to working this way, as you will never get true dispersion of a small meth injection vs fuel ratio.

92 * 85 octane + 120 * 15 = .7820 + 1800 = 9620 /100 = 96.2 octane.... Something that could realistically be achieved with paint based octane boosters.

I would expect about 1 psi of boost increase for each point of octane increase so the three combined, IC, meth injection and premium fuel should be more than enough to get me comfortably to 15 psi considering I'm halfway there with high compression, very hot air and mid grade fuel without detonation. The cylinder combustion chambers must be really good because my spark table is more aggressive than the base Turbo Grand Prix spark table with compression in the 8 point range.

quote Originally posted by Joseph Upson: I would expect about 1 psi of boost increase for each point of octane increase so the three combined, IC, meth injection and premium fuel should be more than enough to get me comfortably to 15 psi considering I'm halfway there with high compression, very hot air and mid grade fuel without detonation. The cylinder combustion chambers must be really good because my spark table is more aggressive than the base Turbo Grand Prix spark table with compression in the 8 point range.

I hope you have more timing, as the 3.1 has "fast burn" heads and have less timing than an iron head to start.

------------------
"DRIVE IT LIKE A FIERO"
'84 Fiero, engine to be determined
'87Blue GT 3.4L Swap Completed!!!!!!!! Boosted!!!!!!!
Las Vegas Fiero Club
Fiero Road Club Of Northern Nevada

quote Originally posted by sardonyx247: I hope you have more timing, as the 3.1 has "fast burn" heads and have less timing than an iron head to start.

I have a 3900 aluminum head engine with heads that far outclass any of the heads made before it, especially the 3.1 heads. So with a compression ratio of about 1 full point more than the stock Turbo 3.1 at 9.8:1, you would think it would only handle equal to or even less timing but I was actually able to run more. So GM was probably very conservative with the TGP timing, or the later heads are just that much more efficient.

bump to keep alive.

Another question along this line. I noticed that the entrance to the turbine, just past the mounting flange gets alot smaller than the flange opening and is very rough. Has anyone ever "ported" this area to increase the size and to make the passage much smoother? It would seem logical that this could improve some response in the turbine section and prevent the build-up of exhaust "soot" in this area.

BTW, I purchased the turbo originally stated in this posting and it appears to be of good quality. I will need to get the 5-bolt exhaust weld flange for it. Is there anything extra needed to block off the wastegate hole ( the solid 1/2" weld plate and gasket would appear to do this)?

I was wondering if it would be good to put this link in the "turbo for dummies" thread or if this thread can be included in that one instead of just the link.

Jncomutt,
That braided "flex joint" on your cross-over. Is that just for flexible movement, or for thermal expansion? I thought those were only for flexability in an exhaust system due to FWD engine-rock.

I would use a 5bolt to Vband adapter on your exhaust side personally....

Porting the turbine side is never a good idea. Any extra size here is going to hurt the dynamics of the turbine wheel. The turbine runs on restriction and heat, so you want a rough cast.

That does make sense as my FOCOA headers already have v-band clamps to attrach the cross-over and I will need the same attachments for my turbo cross-over. I was thinking that smoothing the turbine inlet would allow to keep exhaust gas velocity high.

quote Originally posted by rjblaze: That does make sense as my FOCOA headers already have v-band clamps to attrach the cross-over and I will need the same attachments for my turbo cross-over. I was thinking that smoothing the turbine inlet would allow to keep exhaust gas velocity high.

I doubt you'll experience any appreciable benefit either way as the rough surface of the turbine inlet has negligible effects at best on the exhaust gasses, the turbine wheel along with the housing size is where the action is. You can upgrade to a newer stage turbine and wheel combination using the same a/r and still flow more, but that would be the result of the turbine wheel design becoming more efficient. Sometimes it's better to do that then change to a larger turbine housing for more power. Exhaust gass velocity will always be relatively high due to the nature of the turbine housing squeezing it down and out through the turbine wheel.

Thanks for the great info as usual Joseph. Is there a source for these "more efficient turbine and compressor wheels"? I have also been looking for a source of "weld-els" as described in "Maximum Boost". Anyone know a web-site for these?

quote Originally posted by rjblaze: Thanks for the great info as usual Joseph. Is there a source for these "more efficient turbine and compressor wheels"? I have also been looking for a source of "weld-els" as described in "Maximum Boost". Anyone know a web-site for these?

Turbo upgrades: http://turbocharged.com/main.htm

Weld els: local plumbing store or http://www.mcmaster.com/#

A couple more questions then. When "clocking" the unit (I am looking at an install similar to Jncomutt's) can you adjust both the turbine and compressor sides in reference to the center section? I get how to adjust the turbine (loosen the bolts, rotate to keep the oil inlet on top and return on the bottom, tighten the bolts to 15ft-lbs.) but can you do the same for the compressor side? When people are making "mounting brackets" for their turbos, where are they attaching them to on the turbo itself? Is it attached to the oil-drain flange, the turbine inlet flange, the turbine clocking bolts, multiple points? Does anyone have a clear picture?

As number "FIVE" used to say......"I need input"!

^^^^^^^

quote Originally posted by rjblaze: A couple more questions then. When "clocking" the unit (I am looking at an install similar to Jncomutt's) can you adjust both the turbine and compressor sides in reference to the center section? I get how to adjust the turbine (loosen the bolts, rotate to keep the oil inlet on top and return on the bottom, tighten the bolts to 15ft-lbs.) but can you do the same for the compressor side? When people are making "mounting brackets" for their turbos, where are they attaching them to on the turbo itself? Is it attached to the oil-drain flange, the turbine inlet flange, the turbine clocking bolts, multiple points? Does anyone have a clear picture? As number "FIVE" used to say......"I need input"!

Yes you can clock both sides of a turbo, the compressor side is sometimes a gaint C-clip thats holds it together.
And as for mounting unless you have flex joints in every pipe before and after the turbo, you really can't mount it do to expansion in the exhaust as it will crack it. Or any mount made would have to take this into account. I have thought of hanging it from a chain, but it would not be pretty or practical. And if you do decide to mount it someway you have to mount it to the engine assambly and not the body, as twisting will crack it.

Input given.

------------------
"DRIVE IT LIKE A FIERO"
'84 Fiero, engine to be determined
'87Blue GT 3.4L Swap Completed!!!!!!!! Boosted!!!!!!!
Las Vegas Fiero Club
Fiero Road Club Of Northern Nevada

quote Originally posted by rjblaze: A couple more questions then. When "clocking" the unit (I am looking at an install similar to Jncomutt's) can you adjust both the turbine and compressor sides in reference to the center section? I get how to adjust the turbine (loosen the bolts, rotate to keep the oil inlet on top and return on the bottom, tighten the bolts to 15ft-lbs.) but can you do the same for the compressor side? When people are making "mounting brackets" for their turbos, where are they attaching them to on the turbo itself? Is it attached to the oil-drain flange, the turbine inlet flange, the turbine clocking bolts, multiple points? Does anyone have a clear picture? As number "FIVE" used to say......"I need input"!

If you use 14 gauge tubing and a T3 turbo you probably will not need a mount, particularly if the tubing from the exhaust manifold to the flange is short and welded up sturdy. For safe keeping a single solid strut rod from some point beneath the turbo down to a location on the engine block or transmission will work fine since it will be able to flex with any heat related expansion of the manifold side of the exhaust as opposed to a brace type bracket. I had an accident a couple of years ago where I hit and ran over a cement median on the driver side at a high rate of speed jolting the car bad enough to ruin both tires and rims, crack the front fender and from what it still looks like bend the front spindle.

My turbo was supported flimsyly with a thin rod with a bolt hole in one end and an exhaust clamp welded to the other end of it and clamped to the tubing leading to the turbine inlet, you could bend the rod by hand with some effort. Despite that along with the length of the tubing itself from the manifold being about a foot long, the impact was not enough to cause the weight of the turbo to snap the tubing off at the weld joint at the manifold so my current turbos are not braced at all although I may add a simple rod between the tranny and the turbo that has the longest extension of tubing from the manifold on the back side of the engine near the trunk. Generally the longer the tubing from the hinge point the more leverage and tension that can be produced from a jolt to the suspension. Since I used 14 ga steel I could probably stand on the flange and even jump and it probably would not budge.

If your welds are good it should hold very well, if they are not you should be concerned about the possibility of a joint failure from vibration.

After you clock the turbo don't forget to tighten the screws back. I nearly ruined one of my turbos a couple of days ago because I forgot and cranked the engine with the compressor housing loose enough to come in contact with the blades.

quote Originally posted by Joseph Upson: For safe keeping a single solid strut rod from some point beneath the turbo down to a location on the engine block or transmission will work fine since it will be able to flex with any heat related expansion of the manifold side of the exhaust as opposed to a brace type bracket.

Struts/shocks don't support weight, they only dampen. I allready thought of this.

quote Originally posted by Joseph Upson: After you clock the turbo don't forget to tighten the screws back. I nearly ruined one of my turbos a couple of days ago because I forgot and cranked the engine with the compressor housing loose enough to come in contact with the blades.

Doh'

------------------
"DRIVE IT LIKE A FIERO"
'84 Fiero, engine to be determined
'87Blue GT 3.4L Swap Completed!!!!!!!! Boosted!!!!!!!
Las Vegas Fiero Club
Fiero Road Club Of Northern Nevada

quote Originally posted by sardonyx247: Struts/shocks don't support weight, they only dampen. I allready thought of this.

Sorry about that, but in this application I was not referring to a literal strut, or shock, but instead a steel rod which can not be compressed, between the turbo and some other point as a means of support.

Thanks Joseph, that is what I thought you meant. You have been a great help with this for me. What I thought very interesting was that is the book "Hi-performance Fiero(?)" Jeff Wagoner seemed to think that the turbo he tried with these very same specs was too large for the 3.4. I am assuming that he possibly use injectors that were too large and a 3 bar map. Possibly just improper tuning on his part. From the compressor map and the associated calculations, this unit "appears" to be pretty good for a street 3.4. I have been gathering the 5-bolt exhaust flange, CNC AN oil-inlet w/restrictor, AN oil outlet, 1/2" thick mounting flange, cast-iron T3-to-T3 external wastegate flange for a 38mm wastegate, and copper gaskets for the exhaust and mounting flanges. I just need to get someweld-els, V-band flanges & V-bands, two expansion joints, etc. to get this puppy mocked-up. Then on tho the compressor / inter-cooler / BOV piping!

Do you guys know what size bolt is used to hold the 5-bolt turbine-outlet exhaust flange onto the turbine housing? What is the best type to get, stainless or mild? I am getting the turbine housing and flange Jet-Hot coated with their black 2000 degree stuff.

Thanks
Bob

Weekend bump for info.

Let's try an early week bump for more information.

Selfish bump......Thanks for the bracket info. Dennis!

As #5 would say:................."Need more input!"

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ TTT.....more information....please?

Try to rephrase your question in another post.

Bump keep this thread alive forever! I have never seen so much good info and opinion in one place ! Also what would be the best sized turbo for a 2.8?