As of April 13, Nova Scotia requires vehicles without Daytime Running Lights to have their headlights on at all times. Canadian federal law requires that pop-up headlights are *down* during daylight hours except for rain. Federal law also requires DRLs to be a minimum of 300 mm (1 ft) above the ground, which essentially prohibits mounting them under the bumper. Parking lights are prohibited unless the headlights are also up. As a result, my car is only legal at night. Does anybody have any ideas?
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09:06 PM
PFF
System Bot
jscott1 Member
Posts: 21676 From: Houston, TX , USA Registered: Dec 2001
I would bet that the intent was not to make Fieros illegal. I would suggest that the new law requiring lights on would supersede the law that says pop up lights down during the day, (unless it's raining).
I would just turn on the lights and I'm guessing you will be alright.
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09:14 PM
fierofool Member
Posts: 12955 From: Auburn, Georgia USA Registered: Jan 2002
How can they make you retrofit a car that never had DRL's? It would be the same as requiring all cars to have airbags, even those from the 30's, 40's and 50's. I can't think of any specific model, but I'm sure that some of today's late model cars have pop-ups and no DRL's. Would they be restricted from importation?
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09:16 PM
topher_time Member
Posts: 3231 From: Bailey's Harbor, for now. Registered: Sep 2005
On my 87 GT I have 2 driving/fog lamps mounted in the center of the fascia, just below where the hood meets the bumper, kinda a LeMans racer inspired set up. Just a suggestion... The lights are for a C5-R Corvette. They mount in the front license plate hole on the Vette, but I stuck them up in a bumper cut out and molded a piece of yellow lexan sheet to keep the rocks off of them. Worked pretty good, too. Not as bright as off-road lights but definately noticeable.
Or you could go with a set of flush mount headlights from Kris Munson
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09:18 PM
Carver1 Member
Posts: 2843 From: Edgewood, New Mexico Registered: Nov 2000
As of April 13, Nova Scotia requires vehicles without Daytime Running Lights to have their headlights on at all times. Canadian federal law requires that pop-up headlights are *down* during daylight hours except for rain. Federal law also requires DRLs to be a minimum of 300 mm (1 ft) above the ground, which essentially prohibits mounting them under the bumper. Parking lights are prohibited unless the headlights are also up. As a result, my car is only legal at night. Does anybody have any ideas?
I am gonna bet that law about headlights being *down* is only when they are not on. If your lights are required to be on all the time, I don't see a problem with having pop up headlights. Just a loophole. There are laws on the books that would make every car on the road illegal.
------------------ 86 SE 4 Speed 2.8 "The Short Bus"
This is a fairly well covered topic on the forum here. Here's a link to the thread that has most of the mod's that have been used to create DRL's on a Fiero. Some are homegrown and some are store bought. On page 2 in the last post are the details for the mod I came up with.
I have been running them for a while now and it all works just fine and up here in the Great White North. The ambient temps are low enough that you don't melt down the stock plastic light fixtures. I have never even got a second glance from a cop yet here in Redneck, Alberta. As far as I can tell from my research of the traffic laws and the functionality of other stock systems on most of the new vehicles. The mod I used is completely compliant to all the Federal DRL Regulations. How old is your Fiero? In most provinces you can register it as an antique after 25 years old and that should exempt you from having to meet the current requirements for DRL's. This would mean that no mods would be required for you car.
Hope this helps, Sidecar 2M6 SE
[This message has been edited by Sidecar 2M6 SE (edited 04-06-2009).]
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09:34 PM
fierogt28 Member
Posts: 2960 From: New-Brunswick, Canada. Registered: Feb 2005
As of April 13, Nova Scotia requires vehicles without Daytime Running Lights to have their headlights on at all times. Canadian federal law requires that pop-up headlights are *down* during daylight hours except for rain. Federal law also requires DRLs to be a minimum of 300 mm (1 ft) above the ground, which essentially prohibits mounting them under the bumper. Parking lights are prohibited unless the headlights are also up. As a result, my car is only legal at night. Does anybody have any ideas?
Cdewolfe, I think your getting carried away...
I doubt a cop is going to pull you over for that. Wait until a cop "does" pull you over. Does this mean Firebirds or Camaro's, T/A's and other older GM (or whatever) cars is going to meet this law. Just drive your fiero an wait until some rookie cop pull you over. I can't see that happening.
BTW, I seen your car this summer at jellys. Nice car...I like the rims. They look good with the white paint. Enjoy it for years to come.
topher, could you post a pic of your setup? or send me a pic via pm or email? it sounds really sweet, but i'm just having issues visualizing it on a fiero.
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01:04 AM
sjmaye Member
Posts: 2468 From: Hendersonville, TN USA Registered: Jun 2003
Sounds like bureaucracy run amok. No surprise. Many states here make laws that trip over themselves, too.
I agree with Carver. Save yourself some time and check. I am sure the law overlooked the Fiero hidden headlights. In fact, wouldn't that be true for an older model vette as well?
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04:30 AM
Will Member
Posts: 14275 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
Originally posted by jscott1: I would bet that the intent was not to make Fieros illegal. I would suggest that the new law requiring lights on would supersede the law that says pop up lights down during the day, (unless it's raining).
Why would a provincial law supersede a federal law?
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05:40 AM
PFF
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Pyrthian Member
Posts: 29569 From: Detroit, MI Registered: Jul 2002
How can they make you retrofit a car that never had DRL's?
Its been done here in the U.S. Seat belts were not required before Congress enacted a law in the early '60s. The cars delivered without them had to be retrofitted at the owner's expense. "They" can make a law to do ANYTHING!
Your car is a classic vehicle. I'd look at the classic vehicle code.
In Ontario there is no retrofit law and I'll bet there is none in Nova Scotia either. There needs to be a specific Highway Traffic Act statute that requires retro fit for there to be a problem.
Also, headlight laws are different from running lights or fog lamps. Look at all the Pontiacs and Oldsmobiles out there with fog lights in the bumpers. My Alero has fogs less than 1' off the ground.
I recommend you put driving lights in the grill opening and have done with it. You might also want to check with your family lawyer about retro fit requirements in the Province. If there was a requirment to retro fit daytime lights, then logically there would be a similar law to retro fit air bags.
I think you need a bit more qualified info from Nova Scotia and you'll likely be surprised and pleased.
Unfortunately, to qualify to be a "antique" which gets the exemption, it has to be 30 years old. There also are mileage restrictions if you do register your car as an antique as well (to-from shows only).
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09:53 AM
Pyrthian Member
Posts: 29569 From: Detroit, MI Registered: Jul 2002
Its been done here in the U.S. Seat belts were not required before Congress enacted a law in the early '60s. The cars delivered without them had to be retrofitted at the owner's expense. "They" can make a law to do ANYTHING!
I remember when seatbelts became mandatory. All vehicles manufactured under the older "seatbelts optional" law were not required to be retrofitted before being sold or driven on the road. All cars manufactured after the law took effect were required to have seatbelts. Manufacturers were required to make available seatbelt retrofit kits which vehicle owners could, if they chose, install on their own into older vehicles shipped without optional seat belts. There was no legal requirement to install those seatbelt retrofit kits. My 1981 1-ton truck didn't come with optional seatbelts because it has a 10,000 lb. GVWR, I installed them myself when I got it, front and rear (it's a crewcab).
In the case of the original poster, it's virtually certain that the law specifically includes "grandfather" clauses that allow Fieros to be driven legally in his area.
JazzMan
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10:01 AM
cjgable Member
Posts: 1198 From: Fort Worth, Tx, USA Registered: Dec 2001
How about adding an additional bulb into the front amber signal lights that activate when the car is on? Or modify the circuit to accommodate, if it can be done? Similar to what the latest Pontiac Firebirds have. They have pop-up lights and the ambers light up as drl's. They are not parking lights.
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10:04 AM
jscott1 Member
Posts: 21676 From: Houston, TX , USA Registered: Dec 2001
Or modify the circuit to accommodate, if it can be done? Similar to what the latest Pontiac Firebirds have. They have pop-up lights and the ambers light up as drl's. They are not parking lights.
Actually on the Firebird what they did was to have the turn signal filament light up as the DRL. You can buy a kit from web electric to do the same thing.
Your car is a classic vehicle. I'd look at the classic vehicle code.
In Ontario there is no retrofit law and I'll bet there is none in Nova Scotia either. There needs to be a specific Highway Traffic Act statute that requires retro fit for there to be a problem.
Also, headlight laws are different from running lights or fog lamps. Look at all the Pontiacs and Oldsmobiles out there with fog lights in the bumpers. My Alero has fogs less than 1' off the ground.
I recommend you put driving lights in the grill opening and have done with it. You might also want to check with your family lawyer about retro fit requirements in the Province. If there was a requirment to retro fit daytime lights, then logically there would be a similar law to retro fit air bags.
I think you need a bit more qualified info from Nova Scotia and you'll likely be surprised and pleased.
Arn
I think he is right. If they work like the states do thats more for newer cars that are just rolling off the assembley line than older cars. That law wasent in place back in the day when the fiero was made so it shouldent apply to the car as its an older model car. Just like when they did the switch from obd1 to obd2. Obd1 always pusts out more toxans than obd2 and they dident make them accomedate for that.
[This message has been edited by pontiackid86 (edited 04-07-2009).]
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11:01 AM
cjgable Member
Posts: 1198 From: Fort Worth, Tx, USA Registered: Dec 2001
Actually on the Firebird what they did was to have the turn signal filament light up as the DRL. You can buy a kit from web electric to do the same thing.
As of April 13, Nova Scotia requires vehicles without Daytime Running Lights to have their headlights on at all times. Canadian federal law requires that pop-up headlights are *down* during daylight hours except for rain.
One law contradicts the other. Did you ASK for clarification? Have a picture of the front of your car. Corvettes, Firebirds, MR2 and several other 80s-90s cars also have the pop-up headlights. What do they require of those?
174A (1) Notwithstanding Section 174, every motor vehicle equipped with one or more headlamps must be equipped with lighted daytime running lights or lighted headlamps at all times while being operated upon a highway within the Province.
(2) Subsection (1) does not apply to a motor vehicle registered as an antique vehicle.
Note: it says headlamps, not parking lights, or turn signals, or fog/driving lights.
177 (1) Any motor vehicle may be equipped with not more than two spot lamps, except that a motorcycle shall not be equipped with more than one spot lamp, and every lighted spot lamp shall be so aimed and used upon approaching another vehicle that no part of the beam will be directed to the left of the centre of the highway nor more than 30 metres ahead of the vehicle.
(2) Any motor vehicle may be equipped with not more than two auxiliary driving lamps or fog lamps mounted on the front at a height not less than 300 millimetres above the level surface on which the vehicle stands, and every such lamp or lamps shall meet the requirements and limitations set forth in subsection (3) of Section 178.
Which means grill mounted driving/fog lights are illegal. (I measured). There may be a distinction in how they are wired and max candela which may result in them being called "DRLs" instead of auxiliary/fog lamps. Reading the Canada Motor Vehicle Safety Standard 108
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12:23 PM
fierosound Member
Posts: 15217 From: Calgary, Canada Registered: Nov 1999
174A (1) Notwithstanding Section 174, every motor vehicle equipped with one or more headlamps must be equipped with lighted daytime running lights or lighted headlamps at all times while being operated upon a highway within the Province.
(2) Subsection (1) does not apply to a motor vehicle registered as an antique vehicle.
Note: it says headlamps, not parking lights, or turn signals, or fog/driving lights.
177 (1) Any motor vehicle may be equipped with not more than two spot lamps, except that a motorcycle shall not be equipped with more than one spot lamp, and every lighted spot lamp shall be so aimed and used upon approaching another vehicle that no part of the beam will be directed to the left of the centre of the highway nor more than 30 metres ahead of the vehicle.
(2) Any motor vehicle may be equipped with not more than two auxiliary driving lamps or fog lamps mounted on the front at a height not less than 300 millimetres above the level surface on which the vehicle stands, and every such lamp or lamps shall meet the requirements and limitations set forth in subsection (3) of Section 178.
Which means grill mounted driving/fog lights are illegal. (I measured). There may be a distinction in how they are wired and max candela which may result in them being called "DRLs" instead of auxiliary/fog lamps. Reading the Canada Motor Vehicle Safety Standard 108
Without ASKING for clarification, I guess you'll be getting tickets every day.
One cop will be ticketing you for having pop-up lights on which is ILLEGAL under Federal regulations. The other will be ticketing you when you have them down in violation of the Provincial regulation.
Ultimately, it's up to the Cop. A prick will find a reason to ticket you. But most wouldn't know that the dual light in the stock park light location is not factory.
ASK what you need to do to comply with both laws. Most likely you'll be driving with headlamps up.
[This message has been edited by fierosound (edited 04-07-2009).]
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12:30 PM
Will Member
Posts: 14275 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
Happens all the time in the US, until such time that state laws are struck down at the Federal level as unconstitutional.
Name three.
State laws *can* be struck down because of precedence relative to federal laws, in areas in which the federal government has authority. IE, the basis for the legal action is the fact that the state law does NOT supercede the federal law.
I used to drive with my headlights up and on all the time in Ontario, a cop never pulled me over. I have since put in the headlight pods from a 2005 Celica- got the idea from pic's on this site and the pic's lie. The angles are all wrong when you flush mount both hi and low lite up the trees. There is not enough adjustment inside the pods to correct. I now have an alien space craft and haven't been pulled over yet. Princess Auto has low beam xtreme lights on sale frequently, Canadian tire sells a kit to have daytime running lights.
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01:03 PM
2.5 Member
Posts: 43235 From: Southern MN Registered: May 2007
Without ASKING for clarification, I guess you'll be getting tickets every day.
One cop will be ticketing you for having pop-up lights on which is ILLEGAL under Federal regulations. The other will be ticketing you when you have them down in violation of the Provincial regulation.
Ultimately, it's up to the Cop. A prick will find a reason to ticket you. But most wouldn't know that the dual light in the stock park light location is not factory.
ASK what you need to do to comply with both laws. Most likely you'll be driving with headlamps up.
I agree, you need to stop reading into this so much.
If you are not allowed lamps in the grill, then drive with the headlights up. If you get ticketed for that, then it would be off to court and fight it and have them come up with a reasonable solution to having DRL mounted 300mm above the ground on a car that is physically built in such a manner as to not allow them without having the headlights up. This, as meantioned, will affect many other cars, not just the Fiero (in fact the new Vettes 'factory' DRL are probably lower than 300mm, yet the car passed federal laws so it could be sold here (same as the Miata's, etc)).
As long as you have lamps on during the day, I seriously doubt that any cop will pull you over and start measuring heights/etc to make sure you are 100% legal (unless they are aimed too high, even then I doubt that they will ticket you for them being lower than 300mm) - so as long as you have something turned on.
BTW >> before I installed lamps in my grill area I used to drive with the headlights up all the time just to make myself more visable to the stupid people out there that don't really pay a lot of attention. Not once was I ever pulled over for having the headlights up. BTW, where is this law that says that headlights can't be up during the daylight hours?
The bottom of the turn signal inlet is 14.5" and the top of the grill inlet is 16". Somewhere between these two you can mount running lights 12" off the ground.
I don't see the problem.
Arn
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03:56 PM
fierogt28 Member
Posts: 2960 From: New-Brunswick, Canada. Registered: Feb 2005
I would just get one of those hand-held 1M candlepower spotlights and be done with it. Every time you see a cop, grab that puppy and light her up. So you have to drive one-handed for a few moments, who cares? Aim the light right at them. That way, even if they disagree, they'll be temporarily blinded and unable to chase you down.
DRL's are stupid. I'm reminded of that everytime I get someone behind me who's running them. Late 90 Saturns are especially bad. And Blazers too. Too damn bright.
------------------ Spent my days with a woman unkind Smoked my stuff and drank all my wine...
And last, but not least, the Antique Vehicle requirements for registration. I think one could make a plausible arguement that the Fiero is a classic. Anybody have any thoughts on this? What constitutes a classic vehicle, anyways?
174A (1) Notwithstanding Section 174, every motor vehicle equipped with one or more headlamps must be equipped with lighted daytime running lights or lighted headlamps at all times while being operated upon a highway within the Province.
Note: it says headlamps, not parking lights, or turn signals, or fog/driving lights.
Note is says "lighted daytime running lights OR lighted headlamps" Nowhere does it say that a DRL has to be a headlight.
Many newer GM cars use the turn signal filament even though they don't have pop up headlights. I seriously doubt that the NS police are going to be ticketing them if they came from the factory that way.
[This message has been edited by jscott1 (edited 04-07-2009).]
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07:38 PM
jscott1 Member
Posts: 21676 From: Houston, TX , USA Registered: Dec 2001
State laws *can* be struck down because of precedence relative to federal laws, in areas in which the federal government has authority. IE, the basis for the legal action is the fact that the state law does NOT supercede the federal law.
I'll find your three examples later, but your point is the same as mine. State laws constantly are written that are MORE strict than the federal law. In this case Provincial law says you have to have your lights on at all times.
That is by definition more strict. It supersedes the ability to have your pop up headlights down during the day time.
Now I suppose some by the book police person might start writing tickets for headlights up during the day citing the federal law..after about the third time a judge sees this and throws out the charges he's going to set a precedence that the Federal law is going to be ignored.
Now either the Federal Law gets changed or it becomes one of the thousands of federal laws that are ignored, or a Federal judge rules that the provincial law is unconstitutional, and everyone goes back to driving with their lights off during the day.
Example - 1
(The hot dog story: Michigan law is more strict than federal law, Now nothing prevents Thorn Apple Valley from selling Michigan quaility hot dogs in Toledo, but they went to the fed's and argued "WHy should we have to make two products, one for Michigan and one for the rest of the country?" The courts bought it and overrode the Michigan law.
Best Brands, on the other hand, does comply with the Michigan Standard on their Kosher product.. Since they comply with a... ur.. Higher law (Their ad almost)
Example - 2
A federal court judge in Sacramento has issued a declaratory ruling that the federal Telephone Consumer Protection Act ("TCPA") preempts a new California law, slated to take effect the first of this year, to impose stricter regulations on unsolicited advertisements via facsimile by trumping an exception for faxes sent pursuant to an established business relationship ("EBR") codified by Congress in last year's Junk Fax Prevention Act. The decision renders new Section 17538.43 of California's Business and Professions Code - which has never taken effect due to a provisional stay the court issued late last year - effectively unenforceable against interstate commercial faxes sent into California from outside the state.
Example - 3
Gade v. National Solid Wastes Management Association, 505 U.S. 88 (1992),[1] was a case in which the Supreme Court of the United States determined that federal Occupational Safety and Health Administration regulations preempted various Illinois provisions for licensing workers who handled hazardous waste materials. The state regulations had focused on health and safety, whereas the OSHA standards were aimed only at worker safety.
Justice O'Connor, writing for four justices, explained that federal law can preempt state law in several ways. First, Congress can make explicit that they intend to preempt state law in a certain area (Explicit preemption). Second, the Court may imply from the statute that Congress intended to preempt state law. This implicit preemption can be either because the statutory scheme is so pervasive that it makes reasonable the inference that Congress left no room for states to supplement the law (field preemption) or because the state law conflicts with the federal statute (conflict preemption). A state law conflict with federal law either where it would stand as an obstacle to the full purpose of the federal law or where compliance with both state and federal law would be an impossibility.
[This message has been edited by jscott1 (edited 04-07-2009).]
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07:46 PM
jscott1 Member
Posts: 21676 From: Houston, TX , USA Registered: Dec 2001
Further research indicates that amber is permissible, so buy the web electric kit and fully comply with the law and case closed...
Canada Motor Vehicle Safety Standard 108 requires DRLs on all new vehicles made or imported after January 1, 1990. Canada's proposed DRL regulation was essentially similar to regulations in place in Scandinavia, with an axial luminous intensity limit of 1,500 candelas, but automakers objected, claiming it was too expensive to add a new front lighting device, and would increase warranty costs (by dint of increased bulb replacements) to run the low beams. After a pitched regulatory battle, the standard was rewritten to permit the use of reduced-voltage high beam headlamps producing up to 7,000 axial candelas, as well as permitting any light color from white to amber or selective yellow. These changes to the regulation permitted automakers to implement a less-costly DRL, such as by connecting the high beam filaments in series to supply each filament with half its rated voltage, or by burning the front turn signals full time except when they are actually flashing as turn indicators.
Well, we are talking CANADIAN law here boys and girls!
So I doubt that the American Constitution or any rulings made because of it, would have any bearing on this issue what so ever. Canadian law can at times be quite different to American law and to compare the two is like comparing apples to oranges.
Yes, believe it or not, the land mass north of the 49th parallel is a completely separate country named Canada with a completely different judicial system based on British law.
I am sure that this issue about DRL in Nova Scotia is a very minor one in reality
As I stated in a much earlier post in this thread any year Fiero can be modified using the existing turn signal/park light fixtures and bulbs to meet the DRL regulations of today. Heck, I even show how to do it with easy to obtain parts and for a lot less money than the fancy box from web electric which by the way is in the US. This adds shipping and duty costs to the equation for the Fiero owners here in Canada.
[This message has been edited by Sidecar 2M6 SE (edited 04-07-2009).]