This intake almost make me wish I still had my 3.4 to play with. It ran good with the fiero intake, I bet this would have really woken it up.

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-Chris -
Custom Gun Metal 86 GT 4.9 V8 5spd

Build up tread or MODS w/ Pics

Well what size is it and what's it off of ? Do you think the bigger TB will help or hurt ? And I thought there was more than one.

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85 GT 3.4
Auto 3.08
14.9 @ 90 1.9 60"

Is the "S" larger to accommodate the larger TB? It looks bigger than mine.
What is the TB from?

Very nice!

For those who havent' seen it, or want to see other pics here's an install thread.
https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/059634.html

[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 04-15-2005).]

Well, there was going to be 2 maniflods, but Troy forgot to take pictures of the 2nd one before he shipped it off. Oh well. maybe the owner will post some pictures after he gets it installed. I'm finishing up a 3rd special order manifold and will try to shot some pictures before it goes out. Can't quite remember which TB that huge one is, but I'm pretty sure it's from a GM V8. As for if it will be too much, I think it's going on a very modified 3.4 with a turbo. Again, maybe the owner will post some pictures. Since I didn't ask and thus they did not say that I could release their names, I won't.
Raydar, as for the 'S' pipe, it is bigger, much bigger. So much so that I had to build a small releif into it so the distributor could be turned. I think the one we don't have pictures for is getting a Mustang TB. These special order big TB maniflods are a heck of lot more work to build! I hope we get to see some dyno sheets on these engines and some engine specs.
I'm not looking to drum up more special order work, just thought you guys would like see to what else we've been up to. These are 'one-offs' and we have no intention of changing our hi-flo maniflods, not with the great dyno results we have for them. It's going to take heck of lot engine to take full advantage of what these special manifolds can flow. On another related topic; we will be bringing 3 of our earlier prototype manifolds to Carlisle to sell. When we get them all coated we'll post (or get someone to help post) some pictures. Whereas 2 have no velocity stacks inside (they are both long runner units), they will not flow quite as much (maybe 10% less) than our current manifolds. However, they will still greatly out perform even a ported stock manifold. The third one has the velocity stacks inside and was a special low profile design we tried. Rather than have them sit around doing nothing, we're going to sell them below what we charge for our standard long and short runner units. If you're going to Carlisle, look for us. And no, we won't have a booth. Just look for my black GT in the modified fastback class.

Francis,

Still hope you and Troy can make it to the swap meet. There is also a dyno day in the works.

quote Originally posted by Raydar: *Bump* for the chart. As I said, nothing to write home about. On a positive note, I pick up my Getrag tomorrow. That ought to help the numbers a bit. Not going to have it in the car before the swap meet, though. Edit - Resized the big-azz chart

Thanks for posting the chart. My stock (everything stock except blocked off EGR) 88 2.8 dynoed at 112 hp @ 121000 miles. I had posted a dyno sheet here about 3 years ago. Had my 146.3 hp 3.4 dyno sheet before that and got into an aurgument about how much power a stock 2.8 makes and how I was making over 30rwhp, or almost 40 gross, over a stock 2.8 (35 rwhp on my second 3.4 motor). People still don't realize a 140hp 2.8 is 115 at the wheels. It's an 18% loss. I would say 20% is a better figure. That was another 'discussion'... Hence my 188 gross hp claim (in another thread) on my 150rwhp 3.4 motor. So I guess I can claim (188-140) 48 (yes, almost 50 hp) over a stock 2.8 on my last 3.4...

In the end, dyno sheets are the facts... I still haven't seen a 3.4 pushrod fuel injected motor make more power although I don't doubt they exist. I know I could have benefitted greatly from an exhaust with a bigger diameter than stock. On my next 3.4/3.5 build, I will spare no expense (including over-bore 3.4DOHC pistons)! That will include a 2.5" exhaust and I will try to get headers made with 7/8" ports and also port the head exhaust port openings to 7/8". My goal is 180 rwhp out of a pushrod 3.4 (actually I think I will bore it to 3.7" cylinders -> 3.5 liters).

Um...more dyno sheets please!

[This message has been edited by lou_dias (edited 04-15-2005).]

We're having a problem with our system, if you've tried to contact Troy or our website trueleo.com and haven't recieved a response, send them to my home system at rspiderii@aol.com We'll post when it's back up. This will not affect production. Hope to meey alot of you at Carlisle.

You honeslty believe the drivetrain loss of a Fiero is 18%? You must mean the auto, and even then, I doubt its that much.

trueleo.com is up and running, though I'm not sure if Troy can look at his emails yet, If you send a question or want to order something, forward a copy of your inquiry to me also at rspiderii@aol.com.

quote Originally posted by AaronZ34: You honeslty believe the drivetrain loss of a Fiero is 18%? You must mean the auto, and even then, I doubt its that much.

Its been dyno proven to be. I don't know if I still have the pic of my dyno sheet, but my 2.8 with minor mods put down 119hp at the wheels. I'm not the only one who's found that to be the case.

drivetrain loss is different at different power levels.
A 2.8 loses 15% through a 282, but a Northstar only loses 9-10%

quote Originally posted by Will: A 2.8 loses 15% through a 282,

That much?! Holy hell! What does a TH125 suck up?

I think what we're seeing here is that the drivetrain losses are <actual horsepower> losses, 20 HP loss to a 2.8 represents ~15%, a 200 HP Cad still looses 20 HP or 10%. Expressing these losses as a % of HP can be misleading as the drivetrain doesn't care what is driving it. All ballpark figures anyway, the drivetrain will always use some from normal frictional losses, of course a TH 125 being a sloppy, rather loose unit, the harder you push it the more it will loose as it gets hotter. (Then it cools down in small pieces)

Well, I have this CarCraft or Hot Rod magazine article and tests that contradicts all this that you are saying here about constant HP loss or drivetrain loss. So in that case Oreif's 3.4 (only one I know here with an engine dyno #s and RWHP dyno #s) engine dynoed at 223HP should have made 203 rwhp instead of 190+rwhp, correct?

quote Originally posted by 87GT_97114: I, 20 HP loss to a 2.8 represents ~15%, a 200 HP Cad still looses 20 HP or 10%.

its not a straight number either - i can turn the tranny by hand and I guarantee thats less than 1 HP

its a function - a whole equation thats the % decreases as the HP input increases.so if a 140hp 2.8 loses 20hp then a 210 hp engine loses 25hp and a 300 hp engine loses 30hp.. (not exact numbers just an example)

I've also seen about 15% losses (varies of course, but it's a good average).

I'm pretty sure the losses have something to do with rotational instability as well (when was the last time you had your transmission balanced?!). That means that as the RPM's increase, the losses will go up.

So, of course when you're just spinning the input shaft by hand you don't feel much drag. But - attach an electric motor to it, run it up to 500rpm and measure the current draw. Now crank it up to 5000 and see how much draw there is. Bet it's more than simply 10* the draw (yeah yeah, not 100% scientific - but I'm sure you get the idea).

Also, the lubricant in any tranny takes more energy to move as the speed picks up. Might not be much, but it's one of those little bit here, little bit there.... it all adds up....

*We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread*

Any news on performance changes with your turbo engine and stock vs. your manifold?

quote Originally posted by Alex4mula: Well, I have this CarCraft or Hot Rod magazine article and tests that contradicts all this that you are saying here about constant HP loss or drivetrain loss. So in that case Oreif's 3.4 (only one I know here with an engine dyno #s and RWHP dyno #s) engine dynoed at 223HP should have made 203 rwhp instead of 190+rwhp, correct?

Just what are you getting at with the reference to Orief's engine?
And what does that Hot Rod or Car Craft have to say that contradicts what's been said here?

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 04-29-2005).]

I'd like add something on those lines, I also have a turbo and with the new intake it revs much quicker than before. When not in boost (under 3k or so) it seems to pull better also. BTW: I have the long runner on my 2,8 turbo.

I bet that turbo setup looks pretty wicked. Have any pics francis?

quote Originally posted by Will: drivetrain loss is different at different power levels. A 2.8 loses 15% through a 282, but a Northstar only loses 9-10%

I don't know if I can 100% agree with you on this. As it was explained to me, % power loss thru the drivetrain was based on friction losses, as well as rotational mass losses. Obviously, rotational mass losses would not be affected as much depending on power input because you are not changing the rotational mass of the trans internals. The only thing that could change in respect to this, is RPM rate of change. For example, say you had two engines, one that didn't rev quick and one that did. Install an aluminum flywheel on both and I bet the one that rev's quick will pick up more RPM-rate of climb than the slow-revver. Not that this is measurable power.

The most prevalent loss is FRICTIONAL LOSS, which IS affected by power input. The more power put thru a gear train, the higher the loading, and the higher the friction and frictional loss.

The black Fiero GT engine compartment on trueleo.com is my car. It actually looks better now since I made a much nicer shroud for my intercooler. I also powdercoated the big red air filter to turbo pipe and the red turbo to TB pipe in near-chrome. I've also been on this 'if I have to take it off some reason, I'll powdercoat it' craze. And thus have coated in near-chrome since those pics were taken; the engine lift/host brackets, mounting bracket for the AC, heat shields for the coil, thermostat neck, dip stick, throttle cable mount, mounts for the air grills and a few other items. If you ever get a powdercoater and an oven in you shop/or garage, you'll probably do the same. Hmm....... what can I coat next? We just got another intake order and he also wants us to do his valve covers. I guess it's catching.

quote Originally posted by Will: Just what are you getting at with the reference to Orief's engine? And what does that Hot Rod or Car Craft have to say that contradicts what's been said here?

Magazine results are more in line to what Kohburn said above. In Oreif's sample if the loss is constant like 20hp mentioned then why his engine didn't dynoed 203rwhp? (223hp-20). Bottom line all this driveline losses discussion are meaningless. Just get you car to the dyno then do your mods and dyno again. That way you will really know how much HP you are adding, what you really have and could compare to others in similar terms (assuming SAE #s)

quote Originally posted by Darth Fiero: The most prevalent loss is FRICTIONAL LOSS, which IS affected by power input. The more power put thru a gear train, the higher the loading, and the higher the friction and frictional loss.

Not just friction due to gear teeth rubbing, but also due to bearings and end thrust from helically cut gears... ALL of which effects are modified by the synchromesh fluid you should be running, which has a VISCOSITY which affects things based on RPM, but also has high pressure friction modifiers...

I really am going to get one of these! I'm saving as much as I can, but stupid life had to go and have other expenses. I will be ordering one of your intakes Francis, I really will. Just need to save a few more pennies.

Everyone should get one of these. Just by looking at the runners you can notice there will be a definite power improvement. As soon as I finish with mine I will post pics and most importantly Dyno sheets.

Right now I'm in the process of getting the final touch on my intake. I have grinded down the welds on the neck and at the runners. It looks sweet now! Going to get it sand blasted today in order to have it painted.

Later, going to the sandbox

quote Originally posted by Francis T: If you ever get a powdercoater and an oven in you shop/or garage, you'll probably do the same. Hmm....... what can I coat next? We just got another intake order and he also wants us to do his valve covers. I guess it's catching.

no its not.........................

Update!

+19 HP and +14 TQ. (with a couple of other minor mods)
HP peak is moved up from 4250 to 4600. It's making as much power (115) at 5600 as the old peak at 4250.
No wonder this thing is so much fun to drive!

My dyno charts and explanations here... https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/062550.html

quote Originally posted by 87GT_97114: I think what we're seeing here is that the drivetrain losses are <actual horsepower> losses, 20 HP loss to a 2.8 represents ~15%, a 200 HP Cad still looses 20 HP or 10%. Expressing these losses as a % of HP can be misleading as the drivetrain doesn't care what is driving it. All ballpark figures anyway, the drivetrain will always use some from normal frictional losses, of course a TH 125 being a sloppy, rather loose unit, the harder you push it the more it will loose as it gets hotter. (Then it cools down in small pieces)

I thought the (200hp) caddies were dynoing at 160hp and some with mods in the low 170's. My next 3.4->3.5 should top that.

Bump

Any word on the Trueleo exhaust?

Got the design pretty much down, just haven't made them yet. We found out the hard way, the Fiero crowd unlike the MR2 gang for the must part won't spend money for anything, even dyno proven items like our intakes. Nothing out there will provide the overall power gains/$ without affecting reliability and yet they think 600 is way too high? For that wonder why new item that require lots of engining time and money haven't come down the pipe often for Fieros the way they do for other cars, there's your answer. That said, the exhaust will in all likelyhood be very a limited production item.

quote Originally posted by Francis T: Got the design pretty much down, just haven't made them yet. We found out the hard way, the Fiero crowd unlike the MR2 gang for the must part won't spend money for anything, even dyno proven items like our intakes. Nothing out there will provide the overall power gains/$ without affecting reliability and yet they think 600 is way too high? For that wonder why new item that require lots of engining time and money haven't come down the pipe often for Fieros the way they do for other cars, there's your answer. That said, the exhaust will in all likelyhood be very a limited production item.

From a business point of view, you have to set realistic goals on when you expect a return on investment. Let's say you had to make 20 intakes at once to keep your own costs down. Did you expect to sell 20 intakes in a week or month? Maybe a year or 2 would be a better estimate. If we all stayed with the v6/60 line then I'm sure your sales would jump but unfortunately this community is heavily niched even within itself. You got your N* people, 350, 4.9'ers, TDC, Quad-4 and some other one-of-a-kinder's...

In one year, I am going to be assembling my final 3.4 pushrod motor. I say final because if I am not satisfied with the power I get out of the motor, I'm joining the LS1 club (in a Fiero) once and for all. I will be sticking with the Fiero intake, shortened, bored and extrude-honed... However, maybe I'll do a once and for all video-taped bored intake vs. Trueleo intake dyno compairson when the time comes. We'll talk then but I am definitely interested in a 2.5" exhaust. Please look in the Buy/Sell forum here for a nice custom set of headers that someone is selling. I want them it's just that all my purchases are a year off. Maybe you'll have something similar at that time.

I'm relatively new to the Fiero scene ( I traded a used Pro 5.0 shifter for a basket case 86 SE which is going back together as a V8 fastback), but I see a lot of similarities to the third generation F-body community (i'm LT1Guy on thirdgen.org) , particularly the V6 crowd. You have dozens of engine options, cars with low entry cost, and a coolness factor not found in anything new or affordable for most. People are rediscovering the cars ( I remember going to the Pontiac dealership in late '83 with my dad to see the new Fieros...I was 14), and spending money on them, but we're still talking niche vehicles. Most people are on tight budgets, and can't do everything they want at one time, which makes it tough on the innovators who come out with new products. When I started helping Redraif with her 87 Firebird 2.8, there weren't many aftermarket products available for the engine...that has changed for the better (we now have headers, turbo kits, intakes, throttle bodies, etc), but none of them are high volume pieces by any means. Thanks a lot Trueleo for taking the time to do this intake, we're looking forward to receiving your first F-body intake, and will post some install pics as well as before/after dyno results!

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86 Fiero SE

[This message has been edited by Pontihack (edited 05-31-2005).]

sadly francis is right... most fiero owners are cheap bastages but those who are going for all out performance seem to have tons and will spend it but they stay away from the stock v6 and swap a v8 or good 4 banger.... now once more people start modding the stock v6 then i think things iwll go better. honestly if i had a fiero in better shape i would have me an intake but i dont think idrive mine enought o justify getting it.

hell, if I hadn't lost my job, I'd already have one of these beautiful intakes...

-dies a little inside-

Its kinda frustrating seeing your fiero savings getting slowly taken away...

Well, I gotta agree but those of us in the land of fruits and nuts have the State deciding on our engine mods. I think it's a pretty safe bet that the visual part of the 2 year smog check would notice that your manifold wasn't put there by GM ....

[This message has been edited by PaulJK (edited 06-03-2005).]

I am still interested in the Trueleo exhaust system. Is it going to be headers & Y-Pipe, or a complete system?

quote Originally posted by PaulJK: Well, I gotta agree but those of us in the land of fruits and nuts have the State deciding on our engine mods. I think it's a pretty safe bet that the visual part of the 2 year smog check would notice that your manifold wasn't put there by GM ....

only takes about a half hour to replace the intake

If.... we do build the headers, they will be; headers and 'Y' pipe, as that junction is the aera that needs the most change over most other aftermarket headers..