Yes, and no. Yes: My turbo will get the first manifold and it will get dyno tested. Since I have results on my modified engine before I put the turbo on (something like 160 HP), I plan on doing a run with the tube from the turbo the TB off. It won't be quite the same as having no turbo since the exhaust will still have to spin the turbo, but at least the turbine won't have a load on it. Such should give me something to compare with the non-turbo stock-manifold earlier runs. Albeit, I now also have larger injectors, but what the heck. Then I'll do a turbo run with the new manifold. And NO, It won't cost $500, it will cost more, how much more we can't say just yet. I can tell you this, the CNC flanges cost us a bunch to have made. This is not an easy engine to make a manifold for, that's why there's none out there. HP-for-the-bucks, it will be cost effective, that's for sure! I have something important that needs doing, so it will be at least a week or so before we have any pics.
IP: Logged
09:48 PM
hoola47 Member
Posts: 526 From: London, Ontario, Canada Registered: Feb 2003
Originally posted by Francis T: And NO, It won't cost $500, it will cost more, how much more we can't say just yet.
WOW!?! I'm try not to complain, because I do that too much, but that is some serious coin. I'm sure the intake will be great, but if your saying it will cost more than 500US, like for instance, 650US, that's 849.50 canadian not including shipping. For a thousand CAN dollars I could have a low milage 3800 Serious II supercharged and tranny sitting in my garage (obviously not installed).
I was hoping this intake would be more affordable; but you are correct, horsepower costs money.
For those who can afford this intake I wish you the best: anyone who is trying to help the fiero perform better deserves a pat on the back.
------------------ 1986 Pontiac Fiero GT Auto, soon to be 5 spd Getrag from 88 z24, Best 1/4 = 16.1 at 83mph, mods, wires, CRX intake, and power pulley. Planning Turbo 2.8 swap for a little more umph!!!!
Bought for 2500$ Canadian.
[This message has been edited by hoola47 (edited 08-17-2004).]
And NO, It won't cost $500, it will cost more, how much more we can't say just yet.
I can see it now. All the fiero owners wallets have been put back into their pockets as they humbly walk out the door. Once again lots if interest at first untill the price is disclosed and then its "wow thats way too much money I can't afford that. But intakes for Civics and SBC v8's are way cheaper then that. Why do you think you can charge so much?" We might see some of those responses here. I can almost count on it.
Hehehehee
------------------ JM / SH Opinions are like ‘The Punisher” everyone has one ™
Pick up the BONE PHONE Fred Flintstone, and give George Jetson a call. Get with the times and get DSL or cable, something...
IP: Logged
11:23 PM
Aug 18th, 2004
Francis T Member
Posts: 6620 From: spotsylvania va. usa Registered: Oct 2003
The Fiero store sells proformance headers for the 2.8 at like $550 and they're way simpler and cheeper to make than our intake manifold, so I don't think we won't be out of line if it goes over $500. And sure you can buy 'cast' manifolds for civics and such for less, but also sell huge numbers of those things wich makes casting afforable. You should consider getting a civic or maybe finding a cheeper hobby, like basket weaving, or spinning your hat, modifying uncommon cars like Fiero's may be out of your league.
We will try our best to keep the price down and those of you who know how dificult and exspense an undertaking like this is, will, I'm sure agree when you see the fineshed product, that we are not trying to make a killing on these things. A good precentage of the money thrown at the 2.8 etc is wasted because of the stock manifold, so in a way it will return more HP from what you allready spent. Unfortunately, a few people aren't smart enough to comprehend that!
Sorry if sounded piss#$% off, but we've been busting our nu#@ts trying to make this thing for everyone and well......... We could have just made one for my car and another for Matt's and been done with it. There, I feel better now that I vented some.
don't suppose you have considered taking GM's route and casting it from fiber reinforced hitemp plastic? (also less heat soak) its very cost effective even in small quantities
IP: Logged
11:42 AM
Paul Prince Member
Posts: 2935 From: Kansas City, MO Registered: Dec 2002
The Fiero store sells proformance headers for the 2.8 at like $550 and they're way simpler and cheeper to make than our intake manifold, so I don't think we won't be out of line if it goes over $500. And sure you can buy 'cast' manifolds for civics and such for less, but also sell huge numbers of those things wich makes casting afforable. You should consider getting a civic or maybe finding a cheeper hobby, like basket weaving, or spinning your hat, modifying uncommon cars like Fiero's may be out of your league.
We will try our best to keep the price down and those of you who know how dificult and exspense an undertaking like this is, will, I'm sure agree when you see the fineshed product, that we are not trying to make a killing on these things. A good precentage of the money thrown at the 2.8 etc is wasted because of the stock manifold, so in a way it will return more HP from what you allready spent. Unfortunately, a few people aren't smart enough to comprehend that!
Sorry if sounded piss#$% off, but we've been busting our nu#@ts trying to make this thing for everyone and well......... We could have just made one for my car and another for Matt's and been done with it. There, I feel better now that I vented some.
A lot of people want something for nothing. CNC machining is not cheap. You have to make a profit or your project will be short lived. I understand your problem. Like JM and SH said, you're gonna get a lot of " I can buy a low mile 88GT for that!" Just ignore them and go on with the work...............Good Luck..............Paul
[This message has been edited by Paul Prince (edited 08-18-2004).]
I can see it now. All the fiero owners wallets have been put back into their pockets as they humbly walk out the door. Once again lots if interest at first untill the price is disclosed and then its "wow thats way too much money I can't afford that. But intakes for Civics and SBC v8's are way cheaper then that. Why do you think you can charge so much?" We might see some of those responses here. I can almost count on it.
Hehehehee
Not me. I'm still here. I'm still patiently waiting to see pictures and numbers. I don't mind paying for something that works.
IP: Logged
03:21 PM
hoola47 Member
Posts: 526 From: London, Ontario, Canada Registered: Feb 2003
Originally posted by Francis T: You should consider getting a civic or maybe finding a cheeper hobby, like basket weaving, or spinning your hat, modifying uncommon cars like Fiero's may be out of your league.
we are not trying to make a killing on these things. A few people aren't smart enough to comprehend that!
I agree that a lot of work and money went into these manifolds, and I greatly appreciate that. However, in my opinion as an outspken individual, not as a "mean person on the forum", I believe you are in fact making a killing. For example, 650US for a unit, 100 units made? (maybe, maybe not) = 65,000 US dollars. I have no idea what flanges or maching costs, but if it is any where near what I think it should be, you'll be rewarded greatly for your effort. If I were in a better situation, done school, or finished spinning my hat that I made with a basket my grandmother weeved for me, I'd buy one.
If you found my comment somewhat interesting, whether you agreed or not, please help me attain a rating bar. Thank-you.
------------------ 1986 Pontiac Fiero GT Auto, soon to be 5 spd Getrag from 88 z24, Best 1/4 = 16.1 at 83mph, mods, wires, CRX intake, and power pulley. Planning Turbo 2.8 swap for a little more umph!!!!
I agree with Raydar. I would really want to see this intake in my engine doing a few dyno pulls and tweaking the 2.8 to a higher level. Call me optimistic but my goal is 200 hp at the wheels with the right setup. Keep up the great work Francis!
IP: Logged
08:06 PM
Dan010 Member
Posts: 776 From: Katy, Texas USA Registered: Oct 2001
I'm still very interested !!!! Any time frame when they might be available?? Years end or begining of next year?? Been saving my pennies. Thanks for the time and effort on this project !!!!
Not me. I'm still here. I'm still patiently waiting to see pictures and numbers. I don't mind paying for something that works.
Agreed.....
quote
Originally posted by vEnOm:
I agree with Raydar. I would really want to see this intake in my engine doing a few dyno pulls and tweaking the 2.8 to a higher level. Call me optimistic but my goal is 200 hp at the wheels with the right setup. Keep up the great work Francis!
And agreed....
I'm also building a 3.4 and want to attain the magical 200hp figure. I'm waiting for pics and hard numbers before making any definate decisions.
We all know you gotta pay to play! Espicially with our displacement challanged engines.
IP: Logged
08:57 PM
Fastback 86 Member
Posts: 7849 From: Los Angeles, CA Registered: Sep 2003
Thanks for the support people. I think those that grip the loudest have never designed, fabricate and then most importantly, tried to make something this complex in any quanties, else they would know how daunting and wallet-draining a task it is. If it were that easy to make a killing, it would have been done years ago! In addition to the design work, jigs etc, we still have a hefty amount of exspensive dyno time ahead of us as we would not expect anyone to buy them just because they look good. I won't be able to work on the project for at least a few days, but we're really close to welding up the first prototype. BTY: we just took delievery of a new tig welder and another exspense machine to make quanity production posiable. Some people just don't have a clue as to what a project like this can cost you. As soon as we have some pics, I'll post them.
IP: Logged
10:28 PM
Aug 19th, 2004
Spyhunter Member
Posts: 1254 From: San Francisco, CA Registered: Feb 2002
Our manifold is going to be for the stock TB, and we'll likely do some special oders for larger TBs (you provide it). Since it will effectively accomodate larger TBs, we suspect a lot of folk will want to do specialy orders, especially the 3.4 -.3.8 people. Question is, does anyone have a particular TB to recommend. One that will work with our cable and not be way too big for our displacement? Bored-out stock units don't seem to offer much gain.
IP: Logged
06:44 PM
m0sh_man Member
Posts: 8460 From: south charleston WV 25309 Registered: Feb 2002
honestly frank, i think the stock throttle body offers plenty of CFM to run a 2.8L - 3.4L, the problem before was always the upper and middle plenum and plenum neck, someone on here had flow numbers for the stock throttle body and it should be fine for a 2.8-3.4 even a 3.4L bored 60 over (3.5L)
Here's one that Oreif found a little while back. Its a 62mm TB for the J-Body cars and should flow more than enough for the 3.4. According to Oreif, a Darrell Morse bored TB is just barely large enough for the 3.4. Just an idea.
I was kinda hoping there was a 'perfect' TB out there for our needs. If the stock one flows 300cfm, it should be fine. Some of the older small V8 carbs only flowed 400 - 500CFM, so 300 should be good. The dyno will tell usa if we need more cfm. We also don't want make bog mobiles with too much cfm. Thanks for the feedback people, and for the few that knew, it went well on thursday.
IP: Logged
08:39 AM
Aug 22nd, 2004
Bandit58 Junior Member
Posts: 1 From: Kemptville, Ontario, Canada Registered: Aug 2004
Sheeeeeeit, I'm still a-waitin to see this new-fangeled manifold! I think Frank is trying to perform an impossible feat. I'm maxed out on my stock 2.8 with a D-Morse TB, Balanced and blue-printed bottom end, tweaked heads/ports, hi-flow SS valves, Isky cam, ported and jet-hot coated exhaust manifolds, and 2-1/2 to 2-2" exhaust with a flowmaster......and still squeek past California Emissions!! If I can stay within the emission laws with this bad puppy,....I'll spend it! (Providing what the Dyno says of course) I'm really wondering how much HP this puppy will help produce! Get busy, the suspense is killin' me!#
IP: Logged
02:04 AM
Fastback 86 Member
Posts: 7849 From: Los Angeles, CA Registered: Sep 2003
Sheeeeeeit, I'm still a-waitin to see this new-fangeled manifold! I think Frank is trying to perform an impossible feat. I'm maxed out on my stock 2.8 with a D-Morse TB, Balanced and blue-printed bottom end, tweaked heads/ports, hi-flow SS valves, Isky cam, ported and jet-hot coated exhaust manifolds, and 2-1/2 to 2-2" exhaust with a flowmaster......and still squeek past California Emissions!! If I can stay within the emission laws with this bad puppy,....I'll spend it! (Providing what the Dyno says of course) I'm really wondering how much HP this puppy will help produce! Get busy, the suspense is killin' me!#
You squeked past CA emissions with an aftermarket Cam? Hmm, maybe I'll have to do that some day.
Keep up the good work Frank!
IP: Logged
02:12 AM
Aug 26th, 2004
m0sh_man Member
Posts: 8460 From: south charleston WV 25309 Registered: Feb 2002
We're still working on it, or should I say them, since we are now looking at two designs. It's one of those deals where we think we have it 'A' ok and then when we put it on the mule, we look at it and say, "Hey why don't we change this and make it even better." We have enough to do 25 units once we settle on the optium way to go with respect to cost and proformance. One of the hardest things is to keep it idiot-prof-simple to install while retaining everything that would allow it to be used on stock engines (not that any of you are idiots). Since we expect to do a lot of them, what-with all the other cars that can also use it, we want to get it perfect the first time repeated tooling up is exspense. I know everyone can't wait, but it takes time. I spent near a week just perfecting one very special jig.
IP: Logged
08:13 PM
alienfiero Member
Posts: 638 From: auburn, wa., usa Registered: Aug 2004
Why would you say this? What proof do you have to back your statement up? He doesn't have to prove anything to you or us for that matter. It appears that there is no personal gain for him to decieve us so whay would he "pull our legs"?. Just be patient like the rest of us and wait for the finished product. My . 02
if he was playing a big prank on PFF i doubt he would have drove the 6-8 hours up to my home to pick up a fiero motor to use as the design spec motor, then drive back to his place with it.....
hopefully ill have two 3.4L powered fieros and a 2.8L fiero road legal by the time its finished, you can try both designs if you want frank. we can choose which fiero to bring when the time comes.
matthew
IP: Logged
10:59 PM
alienfiero Member
Posts: 638 From: auburn, wa., usa Registered: Aug 2004
Alien stop acting like an a$$. Try to develop a little patience. If you don't believe it then don't read the thread. Nobody has asked you for any money or anything. The only people out of pocket so far are the developers. If it doesn't come through have you lost anything?
Sour
[This message has been edited by Sourmug (edited 08-27-2004).]
I'm try not to complain, because I do that too much, but that is some serious coin. I'm sure the intake will be great, but if your saying it will cost more than 500US, like for instance, 650US, that's 849.50 canadian not including shipping. For a thousand CAN dollars I could have a low milage 3800 Serious II supercharged and tranny sitting in my garage (obviously not installed).
