If I recall correctly, I think the near-chrome look is the one we're going with, though red was running a close second. Anyway, we will most likely do speical color request at a reasonable extra cost. We got the custom mandril pipes thursday and when my son gets back into the country this week, we'll start on the finial prototype. Whereas it will get the first one, I think I saw my car smile when the truck with the pipes came yesterday.
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07:13 PM
Dan010 Member
Posts: 776 From: Katy, Texas USA Registered: Oct 2001
so... since you have all the parts you need now, and you know how much it cost you to order them etc. whats the word on price? Looking forward to hearing and seeing some results. Thanks for helping the 60degree breath better.
------------------ 1986 Pontiac Fiero GT Auto, soon to be 5 spd Getrag from 88 z24, Best 1/4 = 16.1 at 83mph, mods, wires, CRX intake, and power pulley. Planning Turbo 2.8 swap for a little more umph!!!!
Bought for 2500$ Canadian.
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10:33 PM
Dec 7th, 2004
BioDeathWalker Member
Posts: 127 From: Olathe, KS, USA Registered: Jul 2003
Question; how many of you need to retain the water lines to the TB? I did away with mine 2 years ago without any problems and it gets cold here too. I've heard from people way up north that have done the same without any problems. Without them, it's also eaiser to change distributor caps and makes for a cleaner looking engine. Now I didn't say that you would to dump them, I was just asking.
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11:31 AM
Scythe Member
Posts: 1055 From: Burke, Virginia Registered: Apr 2003
It is the "coolant bypass." What it does is direct engine coolant(hot) up and it circles around the throttle body. This wamrs the air going into the engine, allowing it to wamr up faster, and it improves your emissions slightly until the engine is warm.
Bypassing it will not add any horsepower.
But by bypassing it, you make a lot of things easier/simpler on the motor. The return, after the coolant passes around the TB, is a popular place for water leaks on the 60*V6. Also, having that hose go up to the TB makes it a big PITA to remove the TB and/or plenum. I'd say remove it, it is easier than **** to bypass and will make building, installing, and maintenance of the manifold a lot better a around.
------------------ 1992 Lumina Z34 5-speed For Sale 14.78 @ 92.68 1992 Lumina Z34 5-speed For Sale Offered to donated its organs to Fiero
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12:15 PM
Raydar Member
Posts: 40925 From: Carrollton GA. Out in the... country. Registered: Oct 1999
Question; how many of you need to retain the water lines to the TB? I did away with mine 2 years ago without any problems and it gets cold here too. I've heard from people way up north that have done the same without any problems. Without them, it's also eaiser to change distributor caps and makes for a cleaner looking engine. Now I didn't say that you would to dump them, I was just asking.
I would say make the prvisions to add them but also include, or suggest a proper block off (ex. stainless bolt that can bought at any hardware store). This way the installer would be able to do as they please and you still keep with one design.
It is the "coolant bypass." What it does is direct engine coolant(hot) up and it circles around the throttle body. This wamrs the air going into the engine, allowing it to wamr up faster, and it improves your emissions slightly until the engine is warm.
Bypassing it will not add any horsepower.
But by bypassing it, you make a lot of things easier/simpler on the motor. The return, after the coolant passes around the TB, is a popular place for water leaks on the 60*V6. Also, having that hose go up to the TB makes it a big PITA to remove the TB and/or plenum. I'd say remove it, it is easier than **** to bypass and will make building, installing, and maintenance of the manifold a lot better a around.
Actually, the coolant travels straight through the bottom of the throttle body, it's a straight shot. As a result it only warms the small bit of the throttle bore that is directly below the throttle blade itself, and has no effect on the rest of the throttle body. The only purpose of this small amount of heating is to prevent a buildup of ice that could stick the throttle blade open causing a runaway throttle incident. The likelyhood of this icing actually ocurring is really quite small, but apparently GM thought it was important enough to spend engineering and manufacturing dollars to add the system.
Heating intake air only matters on engines where the fuel is mixed with the air somewhere other than at the valve. The Duke, for instance, mixes the fuel at the top of the intake so the intake charge is "wet" with fuel. Heating this air helps atomize the fuel better so that the car will get more power, better gas mileage, and produce less emissions. The intake charge on the Fiero V6 is "dry" because the fuel is added at the valve. In fact, the injector fires multiple times against the back of the closed valve where it sits and evaporates. Because the air charge is dry, it is best to keep the intake charge as cold as possible to increase power, efficiency, gas mileage, yadda yadda.
Originally posted by JazzMan: Actually, the coolant travels straight through the bottom of the throttle body, it's a straight shot. As a result it only warms the small bit of the throttle bore that is directly below the throttle blade itself, and has no effect on the rest of the throttle body. The only purpose of this small amount of heating is to prevent a buildup of ice that could stick the throttle blade open causing a runaway throttle incident. The likelyhood of this icing actually ocurring is really quite small, but apparently GM thought it was important enough to spend engineering and manufacturing dollars to add the system.
Heating intake air only matters on engines where the fuel is mixed with the air somewhere other than at the valve. The Duke, for instance, mixes the fuel at the top of the intake so the intake charge is "wet" with fuel. Heating this air helps atomize the fuel better so that the car will get more power, better gas mileage, and produce less emissions. The intake charge on the Fiero V6 is "dry" because the fuel is added at the valve. In fact, the injector fires multiple times against the back of the closed valve where it sits and evaporates. Because the air charge is dry, it is best to keep the intake charge as cold as possible to increase power, efficiency, gas mileage, yadda yadda.
JazzMan
Let me furthermore add that my Escort doesn't have any stuff like this, and the throttle body is nowhere near anything that gets really hot, either.
The only reason I've retained them on my '85 is that my '85 is meant to be 100% totally stock and original. When I put my '86 back together, the TB coolant lines will be on somewhere in the pile of parts I left out...
Your Escort has a nice radiator up front that dumps its hot air into the engine bay. The heat from the Fiero radiator is diluted with cold air under the car before it gets to the Fiero's engine bay, and the Fiero intake air is from cold outside air anyway via the quarter panel intake.
JazzMan
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11:27 PM
Dec 20th, 2004
MarkJPana Member
Posts: 1926 From: Marlboro, MA, USA Registered: Mar 2003
Your Escort has a nice radiator up front that dumps its hot air into the engine bay. The heat from the Fiero radiator is diluted with cold air under the car before it gets to the Fiero's engine bay, and the Fiero intake air is from cold outside air anyway via the quarter panel intake.
JazzMan
My Z34s have coolant lines to the throttle body, and we have front mount/cooled motors...
Looking at the TB closer, you are correct, it doesn't circulate around the entire blade like I thought it did.
------------------ 1992 Lumina Z34 5-speed For Sale 14.78 @ 92.68 1992 Lumina Z34 5-speed For Sale Offered to donated its organs to Fiero
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10:59 AM
PFF
System Bot
Francis T Member
Posts: 6620 From: spotsylvania va. usa Registered: Oct 2003
On the throttle body discussions, both reasons are correct. The throttle body coolant passage warms up the throttle body to prevent freezing up and to reduce emissions. I read an internet article (oh boy) that put the minumum gains from bypassing the throttle body coolant at .26 hp (on a Mazda 3.0L). The writer of that article used every mathematical formula in the book in the worst case scenario to prove that it wasn't worth the risk of bypassing the throttle body coolant. However I have seen with my own eyes, on a dyno, hp improvements from bypassing the throttle body coolant passage on a 3800 SC Grand Prix. Even on the Corvette, Camaro, and Firebird forums, it has resulted in dyno proven increases of up to 10hp. I believe our cars are closer to the worst case scenario than the best case scenario, because of our engine bays being away from the radiator, and more open to the elements, as well as the inefficiencies of our intake system that further obscures any intake improvements that other engines can achieve. Despite this, it should be easy to realize that the car must be running for the throttle body coolant to discourage icing, but if your ambient engine temp can't keep that from happening you either live in a very cold area or have other problems in the engine bay to solve. If you are like me, and only drive your fiero in warm months, there is no risk of icing up - do the bypass mod and get free horsepower (even if it is only .26hp ). Of course, the more efficient your intake is, the better results you will get...
[This message has been edited by fierogt88 (edited 12-20-2004).]
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02:17 PM
Will Member
Posts: 14250 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
The problem with TB icing isn't really in cold climates... it's more in cool humid climates. In those atmospheric conditions, the pressure (and corresponding temperature) drop across the throttle plate can cause water vapor to condense and freeze on the throttle plate, even when the ambient temp is in the high 30's to low 40's. We've had this happen a handful of times on a Cadillac 500 powered Suburban with a phenolic carb spacer.
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04:14 PM
Raydar Member
Posts: 40925 From: Carrollton GA. Out in the... country. Registered: Oct 1999
Since we're all still patiently waiting, shall we wander off on a little side discussion? I'm sure that none of us are going anywhere.
quote
Originally posted by Will:
The problem with TB icing isn't really in cold climates... it's more in cool humid climates. In those atmospheric conditions, the pressure (and corresponding temperature) drop across the throttle plate can cause water vapor to condense and freeze on the throttle plate, even when the ambient temp is in the high 30's to low 40's. We've had this happen a handful of times on a Cadillac 500 powered Suburban with a phenolic carb spacer.
Is the 500 Caddy FI'd or carbed?
The reason I'm asking is because I always heard that the atomization/evaporation of the fuel played a major part in causing the intake air temp to drop enough to form ice crystals. If you buy into that explanation, only a carb or TBI should be susceptible to icing. Since our FI is "dry", it seems like the problem would be greatly reduced, if not eliminated altogether.
Just out of curiosity, has anyone ever had a PFI or MPI throttle body to ice up? Anybody even heard of it happening? Even to their girlfriend's roommate's cousin's hairdresser's stepson? I have never heard of even one instance.
(After that rant, just watch Will's 500 Caddy be PFI. That would be my luck. )
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08:41 PM
Dec 21st, 2004
Will Member
Posts: 14250 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
Well... NOW it's PFI and we haven't had the same problem since. When we had the icing issue, it was carbeureted... which is why it had a phenolic carb spacer
Continuing on this tangent, the temperature drop is two parts... latent heat from fuel atomization/vaporization and temperature drop due to expansion across the throttle plate With a dry manifold, the latent heat of the fuel is not present; the potential for throttle icing is greatly reduced, but still present.
The 500 now has a fuel injection manifold from a 70's Caddy. Instead of the original peak/hold injectors and analog ECM, we have modified the HEI distributor to package an LT1 optical distributor pickup and are running '94/5 LT1 electronics, along with LT1 Edit for tuning. With the MAF in place, all that was necessary to get it to start up and run reasonably well was changing the cylinder size constant from 0.717 to 1.025 (Litres per cylinder!) and setting the injector size constant appropriately (using modern injectors, not the original peak/holds).
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10:32 AM
AaronZ34 Member
Posts: 2322 From: Colorado Springs, CO Registered: Oct 2004
I live in CO, and I start my Z34 up every morning at 6 am, and have never had a problem. My shift cables stick, and it won't idle, but no icing. I have also never heard of it happening. But GM probly did it to be safe, they do a lot of things like that. Like adding an entire AIR injection system becuz of a half popint of extra compression...lol
------------------ 1992 Lumina Z34 5-speed For Sale 14.78 @ 92.68 1992 Lumina Z34 5-speed For Sale Offered to donated its organs to Fiero
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12:02 PM
Dec 22nd, 2004
MarkJPana Member
Posts: 1926 From: Marlboro, MA, USA Registered: Mar 2003
