Are you at least considering putting this motor on an engine Dyno just to satisfy peoples curiosity on what power the motor really makes.

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85GT 5spd MSD Everything,4.9 With Nitrous. www.captfiero.com

[This message has been edited by Capt Fiero (edited 09-23-2005).]

Looks killer, should run the same...

But I can't believe you didn't drop a few more bux and get the block polished as well!!!!!!

Cap'n - Yes, I will be putting it on the dyno at Carlisle next May.

Watts- LOL! I think the guy at the polishers almost had a stroke after he did the upper half of the engine! If it's any consolation to ya, I'm having the exhaust manifolds ceramic coated in a chrome like finish, and I'm really debating whether or not to cover the engine bay in aluminum sheeting.

So here's an updated picture with the valve covers and upper plenum sitting on top. It all needs to be cleaned up before I install it but it sort of gives a look at what it will look like:

[This message has been edited by GT (edited 09-26-2005).]

DAAAAMMMnnN...that is sick

UPDATE please. shine on GT, were going to need our sunglasses to look at the pics.

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87 notchback 4.9L
Custom LED Notchback Tail Lights

Well, it's kinda funny. Tonight is the first chance I've had in a couple of weeks to work on it. I was thinking about the valve covers. The 4.9 valve covers are made of magnesium and they tarnish like crazy, I'm talking about one week after I use Blue Magic they look like this:

The aluminum holds it's polish and is just fine but the magnesium is proving to be a hassle. So in the meantime while I decide how to go about clear coating them and finding a clearcoat that doesn't yellow I've decided to just paint the Allante valve covers red to match the engine block and car body. I think it'll hold me over till next year and give me some time to figure out what to do about the fast tarnishing problem.

So wuddya think? Opinions?

officially the sweetest 4.9(well, its about a 5.0 huh) caddy!!!!!

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Soon to be custom port fuel injected with Megasquirt! 4.5l and th-440 And Im only 18. think about when Im 30!!

I like the red better... there's some contrast between colour and high polish finishes so it doesn't look so boring. Variety is good!

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Yea I like the red covers on it a bit better as well.

Tim

[This message has been edited by Mickey_Moose (edited 10-22-2005).]

Yeah, the red is definitely growing on me. The pictures don't do it justice... thought they do hide a multitude of blemishes.

Powder coat these red.

Couldn't you powdercoat the covers say - silver. Might look good.

Only problem is that I think I read somewhere that you can't powder coat the magnesium valve covers - something to do with the heat?

If you can anodize magnesium you could do that in clear. That would keep them nice and shiny

I like the red personnaly.
More importantly than that, when is the engine going to go into the car?
I have also been wondering if you checked to see if the valve clear the piston tops.
I just bought a 92 Deville as a winter beater and will be pulling the motor in the spring to rebuild for one of my cars and am waiting to see how your engine runs.
Rich

The shop that did my heads says the valves should clear. Other people that have used the N* pistons and cams with higher lift say it will clear. I'll find out for sure when I start it up.

I'm hoping to get it mounted on the cradle and at least bolted into the car before this winter hits, that's the goal anyway. Then I'll have a lot of time for other things like starting it, moving the battery, changing the fuel pump, etc next spring before Carlisle.

Right now I'm looking for an Allante TPS sensor connector so I can wire up my harness. Anyone have one to spare or know where I can get one?

-Rick

quote Originally posted by GT: The shop that did my heads says the valves should clear. Other people that have used the N* pistons and cams with higher lift say it will clear. I'll find out for sure when I start it up. -Rick

I have followed this thread from the begining and appluad your efforts. I am guessing the larger valves are real similar to what ASG does.
I am surprised though with the attention to detail that you have shown all along, that you did not check the valve clearance.
I really hope it works out, as the mods you have made are prety much what I want to do with my engine. I like the idea of a compression bump from the N* pistons instead of milling the heads as it should help prevent unwanted changes in valvetrain geometry and lining up of the intake manifold.
Again I don't want to sound pessimistic because I really hope your combo makes lots of power and has good driveability. I would just hate to see the whole thing crash from a valve hitting piston. It would be easier and cheaper to fix it now if there is a problem.
Rich

quote I would just hate to see the whole thing crash from a valve hitting piston.

Me too. What I plan on doing is priming the oil pump with a drill and turning the crank when the lifters are pumped up to see if the valves hit. Not sure how accurate that is. Does anyone have a method other than this that will work with hydraulic lifters?

quote I like the idea of a compression bump from the N* pistons instead of milling the heads as it should help prevent unwanted changes in valvetrain geometry and lining up of the intake manifold.

I like the idea but in practice it sure ain't cheap! And I'm not really sure how much power can be gained from a .040" bore and a 1 point bump in compression. Won't be much, but it's everything combined that makes a powerful engine.

The hydraulic lifters do pose a problem but it seems to me you should be able to use a dial indictator, degree wheel and some checking springs to get a measurement.
Using the degree wheel set the #1 piston to TDC then back it off to 20 deg. before TDC. Swap the valve springs out for some light weight checking springs and set a dial indicator on top of the valve stem without the rocker arm in place. Set up the dial indicator so that it is compressed slightly more than your valve lift. Zero the indicator. Slowly push the valve down until you feel it contact the piston top and write down the measurement. Rotate the crank 2 deg. and take another measurement. Do this every 2 deg. until you are about 20 deg. past TDC.
Now look at the measurements and if your minimum on the intake side is greater than 0.080 for the intake side and 0.100 for the exhaust side you should be ok.

This is usually done with the rockers, lifters and pushrods installed but I see no reason the rockers would need to be on.

Rich

quote Originally posted by GT: Well, it's kinda funny. Tonight is the first chance I've had in a couple of weeks to work on it. I was thinking about the valve covers. The 4.9 valve covers are made of magnesium and they tarnish like crazy, I'm talking about one week after I use Blue Magic they look like this: The aluminum holds it's polish and is just fine but the magnesium is proving to be a hassle. So in the meantime while I decide how to go about clear coating them and finding a clearcoat that doesn't yellow I've decided to just paint the Allante valve covers red to match the engine block and car body. I think it'll hold me over till next year and give me some time to figure out what to do about the fast tarnishing problem. So wuddya think? Opinions?

OK that is it you hit the jack pot that looks better to me, great job.

quote Originally posted by 86fieroEarl: ahhh So one can use 4.9 liners with N star pistons, Ppl have told me you need the nstar liners as well. Oh well I learn something everyday BTW were can I get the cad files for the header flanges? I will check out your site tonight and find more info.

the northstar does not use removable liners they are cast directly into the block

definately dont start the engine till you know the valves will clear the bloody pistons.. that would just be bad dude.. you can ruin the pistons AND the valves

OK, here's the deal so far. I called Bud's and talked to Greg Duncan and I called my local head porting shop that machined my heads. From the head shop what I learned was that it's possible to look at my stock Allante head on the floor in the garage and use dial calipers to measure the distance from the highest point of the face of the intake valve to the deck of the head. Add that number to the thickness of the head gasket and get an approximate number for how much lift I can tolerate before the valve hits the piston. I had approximately .262 from the valve to the deck and the head gasket is about .040. That gives me .302". I have no idea how far the N* piston comes up in the sleeve before the crank pulls it back down again. And that doesn't take into account the larger valve.

Greg Duncan actually gave me a good reason to pull the head and do the ole clay on the piston face test. Apparrently the rubber intake gaskets that go on the water pump and distributor ends of the block will leak eventually and it's better to use a bead of RTV INSTEAD OF the factory rubber gaskets. So I might just pull a head to do the test so I can replace the rubber end gaskets and so that Aaron can sleep better.

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-Rick Stewart
85GT 5.0CaddyV8/Getrag 5-spd in progress...
www.V8Fiero.com

I just called Delta...yet again...

The guy I spoke to verified that yes, it would be .480" lift with 1.6 rockers and the lobe hieght IS .300".
I don't have to worry about the valves hitting the piston even with 1.94 valves and flat top pistons because the valve is at max lift when the piston is down in the bore. He said you only have to worry about valve to piston clearance when you change the duration of the cam. So that's not an issue here at all.

Really if you think about it, the valve has to be closed for ignition under full compression. So the intake valve is closed, the piston is up, and the gas is compressed at whatever, 10*BTDC-ish, for example. As the piston goes back down the exhaust valve opens. As the piston comes back up the intake begins to open and the exhaust valve closes, etc. I can't picture in my head any point along the line where the piston would be up and the intake valve would be at full lift. I read this article that brought it all home for me:

http://www.tprmag.com/issue/2/2_camshafts.shtml

[This message has been edited by GT (edited 10-26-2005).]

Tensioner pulley.

This for me is the most stressful part of the swap because I have never welded and have very limited tool availability for fabrication. So I came up with a really easy and cheap way of attaching the Camaro 3.4 tensioner to the 4.9. I took a spare one of the 4.9's engine lifting brackets and cut it down to size. It seems to work perfectly with no welding and only a small amount of cutting and grinding.

First I took this bracket:

Then cut off the following areas:

To end up with this basic shape:

I used the factory bracket hole for the bottom hole that bolts to the lower intake manifold and drilled one hole in the top to line up with the pulley.

This is basically how it looks:

I still have some final shaping and painting to get it to look nice but it's really sturdy and I think it'll work nicely. Here is a picture of the top to show how I shimmed it with washers to get it to line up perfectly:

[This message has been edited by GT (edited 11-06-2005).]

quote Originally posted by GT: Well, it's kinda funny. Tonight is the first chance I've had in a couple of weeks to work on it. I was thinking about the valve covers. The 4.9 valve covers are made of magnesium and they tarnish like crazy, I'm talking about one week after I use Blue Magic they look like this: The aluminum holds it's polish and is just fine but the magnesium is proving to be a hassle. So in the meantime while I decide how to go about clear coating them and finding a clearcoat that doesn't yellow I've decided to just paint the Allante valve covers red to match the engine block and car body. I think it'll hold me over till next year and give me some time to figure out what to do about the fast tarnishing problem. So wuddya think? Opinions?

Holy crap This majorly wins the best looking 4.9 award. I wish I did that when I installed mine. Keep up the awsome work GT. I never knew they made the custom fuel blocks for these engines.

[This message has been edited by 86fieroEarl (edited 11-07-2005).]

Thanks Earl. Are you talking about the fuel rails? Those are factory Allante rails. The have "Rochester MPFI" "Made in USA" stamped on them.

-Rick

A couple of quick updates:

I decided to use two front Allante/Eldorado style exhaust manifolds for exhausts for now. I took all the different types I had collected to the head shop and they like these the best. They think the headers may be overkill on this engine for street use and these ought to work just fine up to 6,000rpm. I had the mating surfaces decked, the humps inside the ports radiused for better flow, and I had them bead blasted so I can have a nice surface for the Hi-temp Eastwoods manifold coating I bought.

Next is the valve covers. I've done a bit of research and I'm going to clean up my polished covers, prep them with acetone, and use Duplicolor's hi temp clear coat on them to keep them from tarnishing. I talked to some Honda motorcycle guys who have done it and I've seen several ricer forums where people have done it. The guy at the local plating/polishing store said that's what he'd do. So I'll give it a try. The worst that can happen is I'll have them stripped and try something else.

The thing is, I've seen clear powdercoat that yellows. I've called companies that do clear annodizing and they can't anodize magnesium. So I'll try this and see what happens. It doesn't make sense to spend the money powdercoating unless I see that Duplicolor won't work first.

-Rick

[This message has been edited by GT (edited 11-18-2005).]

I called Eastwood and they have a high temp clear for use on bare metal. I'll try that rather than the Duplicolor.

I finished the tensioner bracket:

Next on the list is to mount the A/C compressor so I can get a belt that will fit.

Anyone have pictures of how the A/C brackets go?

how much did the head and cam work cost you?

can you post a price list?

id love to see what this bad boy puts out for power. ill bet it will be very respectable!

id use the lt1 throttle body or an ls1 tb and run it on megasquirt. thats what good ol bubbajoe does!

quote Originally posted by Flyguyeddy: how much did the head and cam work cost you? can you post a price list? id love to see what this bad boy puts out for power. ill bet it will be very respectable! id use the lt1 throttle body or an ls1 tb and run it on megasquirt. thats what good ol bubbajoe does!

I'
I'd also like this info.

Forget the list, can I just give you my engine and you make it look like that? wow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

quote Originally posted by Ambush: Forget the list, can I just give you my engine and you make it look like that? wow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

agreed. and a bump.

quote Originally posted by GT: I just called Delta...yet again... The guy I spoke to verified that yes, it would be .480" lift with 1.6 rockers and the lobe hieght IS .300". I don't have to worry about the valves hitting the piston even with 1.94 valves and flat top pistons because the valve is at max lift when the piston is down in the bore. He said you only have to worry about valve to piston clearance when you change the duration of the cam. So that's not an issue here at all. Really if you think about it, the valve has to be closed for ignition under full compression. So the intake valve is closed, the piston is up, and the gas is compressed at whatever, 10*BTDC-ish, for example. As the piston goes back down the exhaust valve opens. As the piston comes back up the intake begins to open and the exhaust valve closes, etc. I can't picture in my head any point along the line where the piston would be up and the intake valve would be at full lift. I read this article that brought it all home for me: http://www.tprmag.com/issue/2/2_camshafts.shtml

the duration of the delta cams mild cam is muchshorter than the stock 4.9L caM, SO I WOULD DEFINATELY be worried.. measure before you start her up dude..beter safe than sorry

I can't recall at the moment how much is invested into this swap, I think the last total was somewhere around $6000 so far. But the head work was around $1500 and the cam was $125. I put all new lifters in which were somewhere around $8.00 a piece.

I just called Delta *AGAIN* and got the actual numbers for the duration and spoke with "John" this time.

Stock intake duration at .050" is 194* and stock exhaust duration at .050" is 200*.
Delta cam duration on the intake and exhaust at .050" is 203*.

Duration is only slightly more on this cam, not enough to make a real difference in clearance. Now I've spoken to two people at Delta who have confirmed that the intake valve will be nowhere near the piston when it comes up. I'm satisfied. Maybe I'm being lazy, maybe I'm just broke and don't want to buy any more gaskets but if the cam company says there's no problem, I'm willing to take the chance that they know what they're talking about.

Take a look at this graphic: http://auto.howstuffworks.com/engine4.htm

Here's another good one: http://auto.howstuffworks.com/camshaft2.htm

[This message has been edited by GT (edited 11-30-2005).]

hey, its all good, imjust saying, better safethan sorry.. i seriously doubt Delta Cams will pay for the damage done if something should break

quote Originally posted by GT: I can't recall at the moment how much is invested into this swap, I think the last total was somewhere around $6000 so far. But the head work was around $1500 and the cam was $125. I put all new lifters in which were somewhere around $8.00 a piece. I just called Delta *AGAIN* and got the actual numbers for the duration and spoke with "John" this time. Stock intake duration at .050" is 194* and stock exhaust duration at .050" is 200*. Delta cam duration on the intake and exhaust at .050" is 203*. Duration is only slightly more on this cam, not enough to make a real difference in clearance. Now I've spoken to two people at Delta who have confirmed that the intake valve will be nowhere near the piston when it comes up. I'm satisfied. Maybe I'm being lazy, maybe I'm just broke and don't want to buy any more gaskets but if the cam company says there's no problem, I'm willing to take the chance that they know what they're talking about. Take a look at this graphic: http://auto.howstuffworks.com/engine4.htm Here's another good one: http://auto.howstuffworks.com/camshaft2.htm

quote Originally posted by aaronrus: hey, its all good, imjust saying, better safethan sorry.. i seriously doubt Delta Cams will pay for the damage done if something should break

BUMP

OK, here's a shot of what I think may end up being the final 'look' of the engine. The polished 4.9 covers with red accenting. I still have to get another coat of red on there and then a couple more high temp clear coats:

quote Originally posted by GT: OK, here's a shot of what I think may end up being the final 'look' of the engine. The polished 4.9 covers with red accenting. I still have to get another coat of red on there and then a couple more high temp clear coats:

god damnit i want to see this engine in the car and see the dyno results!

Looks good. When are you going to get this thing in the car?

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88 Coupe: Modded 4.9L V8 5 speed
86 GT: Stock 4 speed
86 SE: 3.4 DOHC 4 speed
http://www.geocities.com/fast88fiero

Hey James, I was just looking for your website. How are the headers coming and how's the car running?

I plan on having my car drivable by Carlisle this year (May). I've been making several trips to the parts store over the last two days trying to get a belt but finally it looks like the one I need is out of stock and will be in on Tuesday. I've got the Getrag on my bench all cleaned and ready for new seals and paint. Every night after the kids go to bed I've been spending quality time with my harness so that should be done soon. I'm waiting for the T-stat housing to come back from the chrome plater's and I need to re polish and clear coat the oil filter boss. I need to find a couple of A/C compressor bolts and some new exhaust manifold bolts and the engine will be ready to come off the stand. My cradle is at the paint shop being stripped and repainted so as soon as that comes back next week I can start fitting everything together. I was hoping to prime the oil pump in the next couple of days so I can install the distributor and get the plugs and wires installed.

So yeah, lots to do, but the plan is Carlisle or bust!