delicioso, It is my plan to tune the engine on the dyno then do a run with a factory stock plenum and throttle body. It really depends on how much time (spelled money) I spend getting this thing tuned. The 4800rpm door I refered to is well documented on many threads by reputable Fiero folks. A stock 3.4 with stock Fiero intake system simply runs out of air at approximately 4800rpm. That is why Fancis developed the Truelo intake. The stock Fiero intake will flow 318cfm of air. Barely enough for a 2.8.
Chuck
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12:29 AM
Saber49 Member
Posts: 937 From: Ontario, Canada Registered: May 2004
Wow... very clean work... i like the final result... everything looks stock and nothing is hacked up to look out of place! if i had a 2.8 and was looking to increase air flow id have what your doing done for sure.
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08:16 AM
Mister Member
Posts: 1975 From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada Registered: Aug 2004
Well Chuck, I Have to hand to you - the upper plenum does look great For a 'non Fiero guy' it will look stock. And as we said B4 it reminds me a lot like the PPG intake (and that’s probably a good thing)
As for the dyno, if you can afford a full comparison with the stock plenum that would definitely make your mod a valid one. I know people on PFF are not easily impressed or convinced and "the seat of the pants" meter will put a smile on your face but won't "Sell" if you get my point.
I said it once, and I'm starting to hear it from other people, if you prove this mod on a the V6's and you make it right, you can produce one of these every two weeks and have people lined up with cash in their hands LOL. If not, you can always try "selling" Darrel Morse on it. He's got the tools and some cores to work on and his 57mm bored TB will make a perfect match
Please keep us posted! Thanks for all the info, and good luck.
quote
Originally posted by fierochild: As for power I can only say that the seat- of- the- pants meter pegged the wow on the scale. The engine pulled strong through 6000rpm, and it did not exibit the 4800rpm flat spot most people report on the 3.4. Chuck
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[This message has been edited by Mister (edited 04-07-2006).]
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08:41 AM
82-T/A [At Work] Member
Posts: 24350 From: Florida USA Registered: Aug 2002
Todd, I rummaged through the trash bin, and only found a piece of the neck where the vacuum port is. It measured .213 in or 5.41mm thick. The bottom of the plenum was fairly uniform. Hope this helps.
Not to mention the fact that it doesn't fit without serious modification. Put it on like its supposed to be and it doesn't clear the thermostat, and its pointed at the wrong side of the engine. Turn it around like the Fiero's, and it won't clear the distributor.
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04:27 AM
82-T/A [At Work] Member
Posts: 24350 From: Florida USA Registered: Aug 2002
The only thing that concerns me would be the ability to keep the EGR tube. I wouldn't be against installing one of the new flexible replacement tubes.
Although, looking back at some of the earlier pictures taken in this thread, it seems to me that the biggest restriction is in the neck.
I would have to do some serious grinding there...
I'm seriously considering perhaps trying to open up the bottom of the intake RIGHT around the bottom of the neck (just AFT of the EGR connection). I think that with that much space, I could probably do some major cleanup work.
After doing all of that, I'm thinking about then sending it in to Extrude Hone and having them send their material through all three pieces to clean up the intake.
I'm really trying to build the most powerful stock looking 3.2 motor that I can... while at the same time have it still be reliable.
Honestly, when I'm done, I could have been able to drop in a used LS1 with an Archie kit...
But at least my car will LOOK stock, which is important to me.
------------------ Todd, 2006 Pontiac Solstice 2004 Volkswagen Beetle Convertible (Wife's Car) 2002 Ford Crown Victoria LX 1987 Pontiac Fiero SE / V6 5-Speed 1987 Pontiac Fiero SE / V6 (3.2L) Auto 1984 Pontiac Fiero 2m4 SE 1981 Pontiac TransAm (Olds 455BB) 1973 Volkswagen Type-2 Transporter
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10:39 AM
Alex4mula Member
Posts: 7405 From: Canton, MI US Registered: Dec 1999
Not to mention the fact that it doesn't fit without serious modification. Put it on like its supposed to be and it doesn't clear the thermostat, and its pointed at the wrong side of the engine. Turn it around like the Fiero's, and it won't clear the distributor.
So you don't call what is being done here serious modifications? Je je! Just change the thermostat housing and relocate the battery. I don't know if it may be worthwhile in terms of power gains but as you can see it is doable. And a welded plenum doesn't look stock either to me. Just more Fieroish
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10:44 AM
PFF
System Bot
82-T/A [At Work] Member
Posts: 24350 From: Florida USA Registered: Aug 2002
So you don't call what is being done here serious modifications? Je je! Just change the thermostat housing and relocate the battery. I don't know if it may be worthwhile in terms of power gains but as you can see it is doable. And a welded plenum doesn't look stock either to me. Just more Fieroish
Hey Alex,
I probably speak for most of the people here in terms of why they want to keep their cars stock looking. I can't say for sure (but correct me if I'm wrong). The Fiero is no longer a competitive car. It was built during the worst time in the automotive industry (or perhaps at the beginning of the turn-around). That said, it's an awesome car... easily my most favorite car I've ever owned and I'll never get rid of it. I have other cars that are much faster than my Fiero, but... I still like my Fiero. I want to keep the car somewhat competitive, but I want to keep it looking representative of what it was and is. And that is (to me) one of the most innovative and performance oriented cars of the time. During the 80s, Pontiac had very little room to do anything on their own. The Firebird and the 6000 STE was their baby, and they shared those platforms with other companies. The Fiero was THEIRS. They poured lots of effort into that car despite the extremely limited budget they had. Everywhere they COULD, their attention to detail in distinguishing the model was apparent. There are no other V6/60 motors out there (gen-1) that have full-height aluminum valve covers. 3rd gen F-body people with the 2.8 and 3.1 motors are always scrounging for our valve covers. They assembled this motor as part of the complete presentation. I really like the look of the 2.8 (87 and 88 specifically) and I don't want to lose that.
But, that said, I do still want more power... but keeping in the theme of what is the branding.
------------------ Todd, 2006 Pontiac Solstice 2004 Volkswagen Beetle Convertible (Wife's Car) 2002 Ford Crown Victoria LX 1987 Pontiac Fiero SE / V6 5-Speed 1987 Pontiac Fiero SE / V6 (3.2L) Auto 1984 Pontiac Fiero 2m4 SE 1981 Pontiac TransAm (Olds 455BB) 1973 Volkswagen Type-2 Transporter
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11:07 AM
Alex4mula Member
Posts: 7405 From: Canton, MI US Registered: Dec 1999
For stock looking then I would go extrude hining from top to bottom and port match to heads. Of course plus the mod shown here to open the bottleneck. With enough $$ everything is possible
I found this on 60V6.com from a member named racerX11.
I would have done this instead of trying to change the t-stat housing or go DIS. I don't see anyone gaining anything from using the stock upper plenum/intake.
I went back and did some searching on what others did to the stock stuff to get more power. I cam across a thread by Alex4mula where he purchased a upper intake that was modified in the neck area, as well as the plenum volume was increased all dynoed on a 3.4 motor. Gains were minimal. So it seems to me the neck is not the problem. Don't know why everyone keeps thinking that. I am surprised Alex hasn't brought up that dyno test that he did in this thread showing minimal improvement.
Yeah I did that (test). You need to address the whole runner from top to bottom. In my opinion for a stock look just do the bottom neck mod (not visible) and extrude hone/port match the whole thing. Skip the ugly welds joining the plenum runners. Then get a good tune.
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12:32 PM
82-T/A [At Work] Member
Posts: 24350 From: Florida USA Registered: Aug 2002
Yeah I did that (test). You need to address the whole runner from top to bottom. In my opinion for a stock look just do the bottom neck mod (not visible) and extrude hone/port match the whole thing. Skip the ugly welds joining the plenum runners. Then get a good tune.
That's what I'm thinking...
The setup that I have already has everything port-matched, especially the middle and lower intake pieces. But I'm thinking about possibly doing an extrude hone throughout the ENTIRE process which would INCLUDE the cyl heads. I haven't heard back from the people I asked a quote from... but there's a couple of other distributors too...
I'm probably looking at around $700 bucks for the entire process... :\
------------------ Todd, 2006 Pontiac Solstice 2004 Volkswagen Beetle Convertible (Wife's Car) 2002 Ford Crown Victoria LX 1987 Pontiac Fiero SE / V6 5-Speed 1987 Pontiac Fiero SE / V6 (3.2L) Auto 1984 Pontiac Fiero 2m4 SE 1981 Pontiac TransAm (Olds 455BB) 1973 Volkswagen Type-2 Transporter
You guys are funny....why don't you just admit that the stock intake sucks and no matter what you do you cannot keep the intake looking stock and have performance gains that are worth the effort.
You guys are funny....why don't you just admit that the stock intake sucks and no matter what you do you cannot keep the intake looking stock and have performance gains that are worth the effort.
Worth it to who, dude? For people who want a stock look plus performance, they KNOW they don't have much wiggle room, so they'll take what they can get and almost anything they can get is worth the effort to them.
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02:08 PM
PFF
System Bot
82-T/A [At Work] Member
Posts: 24350 From: Florida USA Registered: Aug 2002
You guys are funny....why don't you just admit that the stock intake sucks and no matter what you do you cannot keep the intake looking stock and have performance gains that are worth the effort.
Look, I have a 7.5 liter motor in a 1981 TransAm that weighs barely 3,000 pounds. I don't NEED testicle bursting performance in my Fiero.
We have a SPECIFIC reason for wanting improved performance on stock components. I've expressed the reason now about 10 times in this thread. All of those aftermarket intakes are FINE, but they aren't going for the look that I (or several other people) am going for.
I should be asking YOU why you're even bothering to go with an aftermarket intake on the 2.8. All the money you're going to spend on it, you could just drop a 4.9 in there and be done with it.
------------------ Todd, 2006 Pontiac Solstice 2004 Volkswagen Beetle Convertible (Wife's Car) 2002 Ford Crown Victoria LX 1987 Pontiac Fiero SE / V6 5-Speed 1987 Pontiac Fiero SE / V6 (3.2L) Auto 1984 Pontiac Fiero 2m4 SE 1981 Pontiac TransAm (Olds 455BB) 1973 Volkswagen Type-2 Transporter
The setup that I have already has everything port-matched, especially the middle and lower intake pieces. But I'm thinking about possibly doing an extrude hone throughout the ENTIRE process which would INCLUDE the cyl heads. I haven't heard back from the people I asked a quote from... but there's a couple of other distributors too...
I'm probably looking at around $700 bucks for the entire process... :\
So you want to spend $700 to gain 10 hp just so you can keep it looking stock? All that money and not even making a noticeable difference in power or acceleration. Doesn't seem like a wise decision to me. But I guess it will look stock, and have near like stock acceleration. So I guess if thats what you are going for knock yourself out.
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03:24 PM
Apr 13th, 2006
fierochild Member
Posts: 346 From: Woodstock, Ga. USA Registered: Mar 2001
Guys, Everyone has his or her personal goals. Keep it stock, Make all the power you can with a 60*V6, and everything in between. John's expierement referenced above was not to make power, but to see if the Fiero intake could be made to flow more air. His expierement was a success. The engine did flow more air. John did NOT however persue maximum power gain. While the engine did flow more air no attempt to tune the engine for the extra air flow was made. His one horsepower gain reported was without any changes to fuel or timing. Frances and Orief on the other hand made every attempt possible to squeeze every last horse power out of their mods. Before you make assumptions get all the facts, and get them straight. My attempt is to ring out all the power I can get using the Fiero intake. The secondary goal is to keep it looking as stock as possible. The two goals are not fully obtainable. The stock Fiero intake is very restrictive, and will not allow suffcient air flow to make large power increases. Large power increases dictate more air flow which requires intake modification. There is no way you can have your cake and eat it too.
Chuck
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02:33 PM
Fastback 86 Member
Posts: 7849 From: Los Angeles, CA Registered: Sep 2003
So you don't call what is being done here serious modifications? Je je! Just change the thermostat housing and relocate the battery. I don't know if it may be worthwhile in terms of power gains but as you can see it is doable. And a welded plenum doesn't look stock either to me. Just more Fieroish
While you certainly have a point, you're arguing against your own case. If you use the 3.4 manifold, it will not look stock. By that I mean it will not look like a stock Fiero, which, if I'm not mistaken, was the entire point here. If you want it to look like a stock V6 Camarobird, by all means.
I'd also like to point out that there is a bit more to it that changing the thermostat and the battery. Aside from the fact that relocating the battery is more than a simple procedure, there are a lot of other little things that get in the way. All the EGR controls are located right where your throttle body will now be, they will have to be relocated, which is always fun with plastic vacuum tubes. Additionally, a simple SBC style thermostat housing leaves you with a problem, and that is that the stock Fiero 2.8 has not one but 2 hoses running to it, one of which, IIRC, may come in below the thermostat. Figure all that out, then you need to find an EGR tube (assuming you keep it) that will reach across the engine. Soon as you've got that figured, its time to work out how to get the fuel lines and rail to fit, since the fuel lines come into the rail from the opposite side on the Fiero. Get those squared away, and its time to figure out rerouting the wiring, throttle cable, cruise control cable, and Auto Trans Kick Down cable if you have one. Then run the air intake, since theres no preexisting hole on that side.
Of course, if you can weld aluminum (not easy), you can save yourself a lot of trouble and cut and extend the Y part of the Camarobird intake so that it clears the distributor. I'd have a machine shop do it, it would save a lot of time and effort. But then, you have those evil welds on your plenum.
And all this is just to use the Camarobird intake with the stock Fiero MPFI. If you want to upgrade to SFI, you need to rip out the entire wiring harness and make a new one that can utilize the SFI sensors so the SFI computer will work, and you'll probably need that reprogrammed to work with in a Fiero, since its different than a Camarobird.
Regardless, you'll still probably need the chip reprogrammed, as the different intake will change the parameters of the airflow and fuel mixture from the stock specs.
At the end of the day, you'll have a lot of time, money, and effort put into another poorly made GM intake manifold that neither looks stock nor saved you any trouble. And on top of that, you'll be running with a set up that, if it were the complete original SFI configuration, will only be making 20 more horsepower than your 2.8. The 3.4 intake may look cooler and sleeker than the stock 2.8 spider, but I very much doubt that its any better performance-wise. If you look inside of it, it has only a slightly larger cross-sectional area than the 2.8 in the plenum leading to the runners. The runners are no better than those of the 2.8, as they're the same size to fit the almost identical lower plenum. So more than likely it does not flow any better. Additionally, it would appear to have less volume than the Fiero upper and middle intakes, which will cost you torque, but will add a little more flow on the top end. My final gripe with the Camarobird intake is that the split plenum is bad for the cylinders farthest from the throttle body. At least with the Fiero intakes there was a common plenum to draw from, and while the farthest cylinders were getting less air, it wasn't too bad. The Camarobirds puts the inlets for the farthest cylinders at the end of long tubes. Air has to get past 2 other cyliners' inlets before it can get to the back ones. With the vacuum being created, thats making life a lot harder for the cylinders in the back.
I'm sorry to rain on anyones parade, but I really don't think the effort of the 3.4 intake is worth it. Do whats being done in this thread and modify the stock intakes. You'll keep your stock look and likely have the same performance with a lot less work.
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03:56 PM
lou_dias Member
Posts: 5350 From: Warwick, RI Registered: Jun 2000
It's the law of diminishing returns... You have to reduce exhaust restrictions at the same time or you'll eventually hit a horsepower wall without forced induction. Orief's carb'd 3.4 and his friend's Trueleo'd 3.4 both had the stock crossover modified to remove the HUGE restrictions there. Hence - they made alot more power than even me (150 rwhp, 200 ft*lbs). Dyno @ http://www.geocities.com/lou_dias/Fiero.html
Until I find someone that can build me a custom 2.5" exhaust + headers, I also will be "porting the cross-over" in my next motor. The results will be published in late June...
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03:59 PM
82-T/A [At Work] Member
Posts: 24350 From: Florida USA Registered: Aug 2002
It's the law of diminishing returns... You have to reduce exhaust restrictions at the same time or you'll eventually hit a horsepower wall without forced induction. Orief's carb'd 3.4 and his friend's Trueleo'd 3.4 both had the stock crossover modified to remove the HUGE restrictions there. Hence - they made alot more power than even me (150 rwhp, 200 ft*lbs). Dyno @ http://www.geocities.com/lou_dias/Fiero.html
Until I find someone that can build me a custom 2.5" exhaust + headers, I also will be "porting the cross-over" in my next motor. The results will be published in late June...
Hey Louis, when you say cross-over, do you mean the Y-pipe? The Fiero Store is actually selling a ceramic coated "OEM" y-pipe. I can't remember why I bought it, I don't think I NEEDED it, I think it was just one of those things...
I do remember though that while it WAS a factory y-pipe that had been ceramic coated, they did in fact grind down all of the restrictions. The "Y" portion of the inside of the crossover was ground down flush (from what I could see by looking inside). It was ceramic coated inside and out. I think I paid about $100 something bucks for it. I also have the restrictions removed in my exhuast manifolds (OEM), but I think I'm going to have them ceramic coated as well.
After all, that IS what they looked like when the car was REALLY REALLY new. (before the stainless steel stained!)
------------------ Todd, 2006 Pontiac Solstice 2004 Volkswagen Beetle Convertible (Wife's Car) 2002 Ford Crown Victoria LX 1987 Pontiac Fiero SE / V6 5-Speed 1987 Pontiac Fiero SE / V6 (3.2L) Auto 1984 Pontiac Fiero 2m4 SE 1981 Pontiac TransAm (Olds 455BB) 1973 Volkswagen Type-2 Transporter
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09:08 PM
lou_dias Member
Posts: 5350 From: Warwick, RI Registered: Jun 2000
I should be asking YOU why you're even bothering to go with an aftermarket intake on the 2.8. All the money you're going to spend on it, you could just drop a 4.9 in there and be done with it.
The intake design that I have posted in other threads is very cheap to have made. It will cost $250-300 for the welding, chip and materials. I have a 3.2 and show me a 4.9 that can be swapped in for less than 1k and/or without MAJOR modifications. 300 for trueleo like results is awesome. Your T/A sounds fun, BUT it's not a fiero and I want balls out performance in my car but I just can't afford it right now so I will mod the piss out of my 3.2.
[This message has been edited by goatnipples2002 (edited 04-15-2006).]
Don't go saying that as you have no idea if it compares to the truleo at all. Get it dynoed first with a before and after back to back test, then if its true, then you can make that statement. But don't go preaching like that when you yourself have no idea if its true. I mean why would you say something like that with no evidence to support it?
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09:36 AM
82-T/A [At Work] Member
Posts: 24350 From: Florida USA Registered: Aug 2002
So you want to spend $700 to gain 10 hp just so you can keep it looking stock? All that money and not even making a noticeable difference in power or acceleration. Doesn't seem like a wise decision to me. But I guess it will look stock, and have near like stock acceleration. So I guess if thats what you are going for knock yourself out.
Answer something for me. Why DO YOU care what I or anyone else on here does? Is it because you really truly care about my projects? Or you just feel like arguing for some reason?
I really really like my Fiero. It's by far, my favorite car that I've ever owned, and probably will ever own. I would get rid of every other car I own before I get rid of my Fiero. I want to keep it representative of how it was when I bought it. I LIKE things to look OEM. But, I want to get as much power as I can while sticking to that goal. The intake is a significant restriction, so no matter what I do to the motor, it'll still be restrictive. That's why I must improve the flow of the stock intake. But... that's 2nd. First issue of importance to me is that it looks original.
Fortunately, I have a fairly decent budget that I can spend on cars right now at this point in my life. I think what my plan is for the intake, is to cut out the bottom, and grind the inside out as best as I can. My primary concern will be to enlarge the opening in the neck as much as I can. I hope / plan to build up the metal underneath the neck SLIGHTLY. I want to keep the EGR, so I'll probably just build up the area around the egr passage on the outside. I'll then weld the plate back on.
I have my own welder and although I've never welded aluminum, I might as well give it a shot.
My next plan is to finish the job by having it extrude honed. I plan to have the ENTIRE intake from the TB opening all the way to the intake valve extrude honed.
FYI, I already have everything port-matched, including the lower and middle intake pieces. I also have the bored throttle body as well.
If I gain 10 horsepower JUST by doing this, then it's worth it to me. Although, considering all the other things I've done, I suspect that I'll probably gain more than that.
However, I am swapping in a Getrag 5-Speed that I have from my parts car. The 5-Speed will allow me to keep the car in it's power band. I plan to swap out the cam I have in the motor now and go with something that improves the horsepower in my available power band (which I have determined is from 1,000 to 5,200 rpms.
Aftermarket parts are great, but you have to make sure that everything you put on it fits the overall picture. Since with this stock intake... my motor will NEVER be a high-rpm screamer... I have to focus on low to upper mid-rpm power gains. There is no reason why I should not be able to get a good reliable 200hp from this motor.
------------------ Todd, 2006 Pontiac Solstice 2004 Volkswagen Beetle Convertible (Wife's Car) 2002 Ford Crown Victoria LX 1987 Pontiac Fiero SE / V6 5-Speed 1987 Pontiac Fiero SE / V6 (3.2L) Auto 1984 Pontiac Fiero 2m4 SE 1981 Pontiac TransAm (Olds 455BB) 1973 Volkswagen Type-2 Transporter
[This message has been edited by 82-T/A [At Work] (edited 04-15-2006).]
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06:32 PM
PFF
System Bot
tjm4fun Member
Posts: 3781 From: Long Island, NY USA Registered: Feb 2006
Been watching this with a bit of interest. I completely understand what you want, and why you are doing what you are doing. Personally I like the look of the stock motor, but I realize that there are some shortcomings to it's configuration. I did ditch the exhaust logs, there really isn;t much hope for them, opted for the sprint style headers. the heads are as ported and set as they will ever be. the intake is matched and smoothed. I left the middle and upper plenums stock for now, as I had to get the car on the road, and they are nothing to remove, rework and re-install in a day or 2. I also have to work the y pipe. removing the restriction on the neck and opening up the plenum should easily give you some gains, depending on how good your heads, cam , valves, etc are. if you are planning on doing this yourself, a few words of advice on your welding, if you are using a mig welder, be sure you get the teflon tube and aluminum feed kit. it makes a big difference, like from almost impossible to practically easy. aluminum wire does not feed well thru the coiled regular tube, and picks up contaminants from the steel flux wire that was run thru it. Practice on some scrap, it takes some getting used to. I am actually thinking more along the lines of using the stock top plenum as a cover to a more conservatively designed intake and plenum. when I;m ready I'll have to get an old middle and upper to work on first to mock up the changes.
in the meantime, it's YOUR car, YOUR motor, and YOUR vision. do what makes it right for you, and let the complainers roll off. (If I listened to all the people who told me back in 1980, that a 231 buick motor would never perform, I would have missed out on one of the best cars I;ve ever run on the street. made me alot of money.)
I dont really understand why this is such a big argument because you have clearly stated your reasons but whatever. Defidently keep me posted because Ive been wanting and thinking about the same things your doing. Keep us posted!
Answer something for me. Why DO YOU care what I or anyone else on here does? Is it because you really truly care about my projects? Or you just feel like arguing for some reason?
There is no reason why I should not be able to get a good reliable 200hp from this motor.
I dont' care to be honest. Like I said its your money. if thats what you want to do for 10 hp then knock yourself out. I also highly doubt you will get 200 hp from your 2.8. YOu will prob need around 170 whp to have 200 crank hp. You won't do that with your rewelded upper intake. Sorry but the truth hurts. Stock dynos what 115 whp? So that means you will need to gain like 55 hp. Not going to happen. But prove me wrong. Dyno results would be great.
Also can't wait to see before and after dyno results of this modified intake youmade. I however doubt you will see any significant gains just like Alex4mula did with that modified plenum he dynoed.
good luck and post results when you dyno.
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02:20 AM
lou_dias Member
Posts: 5350 From: Warwick, RI Registered: Jun 2000
A 2.8 dynos at 115. I beleive he said he was going the 3.4 route and the intake only becomes a restriction when you go the 3.4 route. I got 150rwhp without a Trueleo and without porting the cross-over and a H260 cam. I think once he opens up the neck and the cross-over, 170rwhp should be easy...I will be doing the same thing and shortening the intake as well. I hope to have it done in 2 months time. I will post a dyno but I'm not going to waste time dynoing my beat up stock 2.8, I've already done that once on another 2.8 and got 112 whp. I've seen enough 2.8 dynoes to know they make anywhere between 110-120 hp at the wheels stock. I've also dynoed 2 of my 3.4 conversions (146.3/201 and 149.8/199.8 hp/tq) if you look at my second dyno chart (http://www.geocities.com/lou_dias/Fiero.html) you will notice a ~10 hp gain from the first run to the second on the same graph, that was achieved by opening up the EGR port on the cross-over. That just goes to show you how big a restriction a 2" exhaust (and lousy cross-over pipe) the stock exhaust is for a 3.4...
everybody is so focused on the intake side...the exhaust is EQUALLY important you can fix the cross-over restriction and still look stock
it's great that everyone wants the motor to swallow more air, but it's just making it more constipated
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12:58 PM
82-T/A [At Work] Member
Posts: 24350 From: Florida USA Registered: Aug 2002
A 2.8 dynos at 115. I beleive he said he was going the 3.4 route and the intake only becomes a restriction when you go the 3.4 route. I got 150rwhp without a Trueleo and without porting the cross-over and a H260 cam. I think once he opens up the neck and the cross-over, 170rwhp should be easy...I will be doing the same thing and shortening the intake as well. I hope to have it done in 2 months time. I will post a dyno but I'm not going to waste time dynoing my beat up stock 2.8, I've already done that once on another 2.8 and got 112 whp. I've seen enough 2.8 dynoes to know they make anywhere between 110-120 hp at the wheels stock. I've also dynoed 2 of my 3.4 conversions (146.3/201 and 149.8/199.8 hp/tq) if you look at my second dyno chart (http://www.geocities.com/lou_dias/Fiero.html) you will notice a ~10 hp gain from the first run to the second on the same graph, that was achieved by opening up the EGR port on the cross-over. That just goes to show you how big a restriction a 2" exhaust (and lousy cross-over pipe) the stock exhaust is for a 3.4...
everybody is so focused on the intake side...the exhaust is EQUALLY important you can fix the cross-over restriction and still look stock
it's great that everyone wants the motor to swallow more air, but it's just making it more constipated
I've actually gone the 3.2 route. Although, I intend to increase the compression of the motor by slightly decking the spare intake and cyl heads I have. I'm going to deck them enough that I get a 9.2:1 compression, but not enough that anyone could even tell the difference or have an affect on the accessories that I'm bolting up to them.
I alread have a mild 3.2 with a low-rpm cam, 17lb injectors and all the usual stuff.
I have the restrictions removed from the stock manifolds, and I have a ceramic coated OEM Y-pipe with the restrictions removed. I also have the full 2" exhuast starting from the Y-pipe all the way back to the stock exhuast tips. The catalytic converter is an Ocelot free-flow converter. Actually, I just remembered... I have a straight pipe, but I intend to install a new Ocelot free-flow cat (which I have).
When the Fiero Store offered a 15% discount a few months back, I spent about $1,400 bucks on everything I could possibly need. All new clutch lines, brake lines, everything. I bought anything that was FIERO specific and that I KNEW I could never get from a dealership.
I've got to finish up my 73 Bus... but the Fiero is next in line once it's done.
It RUNS and drives right now, so I'm not THAT eager to tear it apart.
I had to edit this because I forgot to post what my original point was.
The Fiero's STOCK exhuast is actually quite a bit better than the intake is. The intake is much more restrictive than the exhuast is. Hogging out the exhaust manifolds, and going with a free-flow cat on an otherwise totally stock exhaust (if there was a Fiero that actually still HAD the original exhaust), would be more than enough for even a 3.4.
You might get a few more horsepower by going with a mandrel bent Borla exhaust (unavailable now), and sprint manifolds... but you're not going to see THAT much gain over a stock exhaust with an aftermarket cat and the stock manifolds hogged out.
------------------ Todd, 2006 Pontiac Solstice 2004 Volkswagen Beetle Convertible (Wife's Car) 2002 Ford Crown Victoria LX 1987 Pontiac Fiero SE / V6 5-Speed 1987 Pontiac Fiero SE / V6 (3.2L) Auto 1984 Pontiac Fiero 2m4 SE 1981 Pontiac TransAm (Olds 455BB) 1973 Volkswagen Type-2 Transporter
[This message has been edited by 82-T/A [At Work] (edited 04-16-2006).]
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05:31 PM
May 9th, 2006
fierochild Member
Posts: 346 From: Woodstock, Ga. USA Registered: Mar 2001
Just a bump to keep this thread alive. I took the car to the dyno shop last monday, but was unable to tune it due to problems with my laptop. (had the car strapped down and warmed up ready to dyno) I have gotten the problems straightened out, and waiting to be rescheduled for the dyno. Unfortunately I won't be doing a run with a stock plenum. Funds have become too tight at this time. I will post dyno sheets as soon as I can get the car back on the dyno. Hopefully within the next couple of weeks.
Chuck
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04:00 PM
82-T/A [At Work] Member
Posts: 24350 From: Florida USA Registered: Aug 2002
Just a bump to keep this thread alive. I took the car to the dyno shop last monday, but was unable to tune it due to problems with my laptop. (had the car strapped down and warmed up ready to dyno) I have gotten the problems straightened out, and waiting to be rescheduled for the dyno. Unfortunately I won't be doing a run with a stock plenum. Funds have become too tight at this time. I will post dyno sheets as soon as I can get the car back on the dyno. Hopefully within the next couple of weeks.
Chuck
I'd be really interested to see what your gains are.
My ONLY option is to improve the stock intake because my GOAL is to keep the motor looking 100% stock, while trying to squeeze as much power out of it as possible.
Thanks!
------------------ Todd, 2006 Pontiac Solstice 2004 Volkswagen Beetle Convertible (Wife's Car) 2002 Ford Crown Victoria LX 1987 Pontiac Fiero SE / V6 5-Speed 1987 Pontiac Fiero SE / V6 (3.2L) Auto 1984 Pontiac Fiero 2m4 SE 1981 Pontiac TransAm (Olds 455BB) 1973 Volkswagen Type-2 Transporter
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04:08 PM
May 14th, 2006
1MohrFiero Member
Posts: 4363 From: Paducah, Ky Registered: Apr 2003
I found this on 60V6.com from a member named racerX11.
I would have done this instead of trying to change the t-stat housing or go DIS. I don't see anyone gaining anything from using the stock upper plenum/intake.
This set up was at the Fiero Factory Swapmeet. A gentleman named Tom owned it. It is a one-off deal that he made himself. He had just installed it and did not have any hard data to go with it but was happy (very) so far with the way it felt. It looks very similar to the one above but more refined.
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09:38 AM
82-T/A [At Work] Member
Posts: 24350 From: Florida USA Registered: Aug 2002
Well, that's not necessarily my goal, which is to keep it stock looking. But this does certainly prove one thing... this motor really is quite decent, and can really make some very decent power if configured properly.
60 degrees is a nice angle to have the motor at... it seems to me that most 60 degree blocks run smoother and seem to feel more refined.
------------------ Todd, 2006 Pontiac Solstice 2004 Volkswagen Beetle Convertible (Wife's Car) 2002 Ford Crown Victoria LX 1987 Pontiac Fiero SE / V6 5-Speed 1987 Pontiac Fiero SE / V6 (3.2L) Auto 1984 Pontiac Fiero 2m4 SE 1981 Pontiac TransAm (Olds 455BB) 1973 Volkswagen Type-2 Transporter
Just change the thermostat housing and relocate the battery. I don't know if it may be worthwhile in terms of power gains but as you can see it is doable. And a welded plenum doesn't look stock either to me. Just more Fieroish 
