Thanks for the info darth. I already used high temp rtv on the snout so should I take it back apart and use the other stuff? I also use thread sealer on the upper and lower intake bolts. Should I redo them too?
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07:23 PM
Darth Fiero Member
Posts: 5921 From: Waterloo, Indiana Registered: Oct 2002
Thanks for the info darth. I already used high temp rtv on the snout so should I take it back apart and use the other stuff? I also use thread sealer on the upper and lower intake bolts. Should I redo them too?
Well if it was my car I would take that SC snout back off and use the approved sealant (anerobic). Make sure you clean out all of the RTV upon disassembly because you don't want any pieces of RTV floating around in the SC lubricant.
If you used teflon thread sealant on the intake bolts; you can porbably leave them be. Teflon or PTFE thread sealant will act as a low-strengh thread locker to some degree. The reason why GM specifies using blue loctite is because of the low torque application of the lower intake bolts (11 ft/lbs) and the blue loctite also acts as a thread sealant (the lower intake bolt holes extend thru to the lifter valley thus the threads must be sealed).
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07:33 PM
ohio86se Member
Posts: 1308 From: akron, ohio, summit Registered: Mar 2002
Fair enough. But I ask you this: How do you know what you were taught was actually correct?
Like I said thats what I was taught and have been using the method for many years with no issues. How do you know what the books teach you are RIGHT? I mean look at all the things they said in the past where good for you and now they did more studies and now all of a sudden its bad for you. People do things differant on many things and no one is wrong if thats the way they wanna do it and have no issues doing it that way. My Fiero has been a daily driver for the last 9 years or so and my 3800SC Fiero for the past 2 years. I drive my modded 3800SC Fiero to work 130 miles round trip 4-5 times a week and it even has red RTV on it. And I have had no issues that where caused by using red RTV on the gakets that I have replaced and have had no leaks either. Like I said everyone does things there own way, I use red RTV on my motor you use GMs sealant.
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09:58 AM
Feb 5th, 2007
Darth Fiero Member
Posts: 5921 From: Waterloo, Indiana Registered: Oct 2002
Like I said thats what I was taught and have been using the method for many years with no issues. How do you know what the books teach you are RIGHT? I mean look at all the things they said in the past where good for you and now they did more studies and now all of a sudden its bad for you. People do things differant on many things and no one is wrong if thats the way they wanna do it and have no issues doing it that way. My Fiero has been a daily driver for the last 9 years or so and my 3800SC Fiero for the past 2 years. I drive my modded 3800SC Fiero to work 130 miles round trip 4-5 times a week and it even has red RTV on it. And I have had no issues that where caused by using red RTV on the gakets that I have replaced and have had no leaks either. Like I said everyone does things there own way, I use red RTV on my motor you use GMs sealant.
I don't care how many issues you haven't had. Your advice about using RTV on the gaskets in this engine is plain WRONG. I have worked at many GM dealerships and independent garages for years; PLUS I have many certifications under my belt; PLUS I possess a highly specialized college education in automotive. So lets just say I have looked at more than one "book" if that's the way you want to put it. So I guess you could say I know WHY you should NOT use RTV smeared on all of your gaskets. I am glad to hear you have had good luck and haven't had any problems. I am sure lots of other shadetree mechanics have also had good luck as you have. But sooner or later that luck is going to run out and it is going to cost someone their engine or worse.
I'm not going to get into a pissing contest with you, mstangs. I have delt with many people before that had the same attitude towards my education, training, and knowledge that you seem to have. So I am not going to waste my time arguing with someone who isn't going to believe anything I say just because I don't have 50+ years of experience working on cars. But what I am going to say is this....
I don't care who told you to smear RTV on your gaskets. I don't care how long they have been working on cars. Because if they gave you this kind of advice, then they obviously have never been properly trained on how to work on anything modern like this that uses a low torque sealing gasket design in many places. The point is you DON'T NEED RTV smeared on the gaskets used in this engine to get them to seal. They sealed just fine from the factory and lasted for 100,000 miles or more in the field without any issues (except for the plastic lower intake gaskets, but the reason why they leaked is another issue which has been corrected by the introduction of metal shim gaskets from GM).
Furthermore, the reason why you are NEVER supposed to seal the supercharger housing parts with RTV; but instead seal those parts using ANEROBIC sealant is really quite simple. RTV can squish out inside of the supercharger parts and it will cure after it is assembled. If a piece of that cured RTV breaks off and becomes lodged in one of the roller bearings used in the supercharger, it can wipe the roller bearing or race clean of oil during operation which can lead to bearing damage and eventual failure. Anerobic sealant, on the other hand, will only cure in the absence of air. Any part of that sealant that gets exposed to air or oil will remain in a gel form which won't be able to get lodged in any moving parts of the supercharger and cause damage. How do I know this? Simple: Proper Education and Training.
I don't care how many issues you haven't had. Your advice about using RTV on the gaskets in this engine is plain WRONG. I have worked at many GM dealerships and independent garages for years; PLUS I have many certifications under my belt; PLUS I possess a highly specialized college education in automotive. So lets just say I have looked at more than one "book" if that's the way you want to put it. So I guess you could say I know WHY you should NOT use RTV smeared on all of your gaskets. I am glad to hear you have had good luck and haven't had any problems. I am sure lots of other shadetree mechanics have also had good luck as you have. But sooner or later that luck is going to run out and it is going to cost someone their engine or worse.
I'm not going to get into a pissing contest with you, mstangs. I have delt with many people before that had the same attitude towards my education, training, and knowledge that you seem to have. So I am not going to waste my time arguing with someone who isn't going to believe anything I say just because I don't have 50+ years of experience working on cars. But what I am going to say is this....
I don't care who told you to smear RTV on your gaskets. I don't care how long they have been working on cars. Because if they gave you this kind of advice, then they obviously have never been properly trained on how to work on anything modern like this that uses a low torque sealing gasket design in many places. The point is you DON'T NEED RTV smeared on the gaskets used in this engine to get them to seal. They sealed just fine from the factory and lasted for 100,000 miles or more in the field without any issues (except for the plastic lower intake gaskets, but the reason why they leaked is another issue which has been corrected by the introduction of metal shim gaskets from GM).
Furthermore, the reason why you are NEVER supposed to seal the supercharger housing parts with RTV; but instead seal those parts using ANEROBIC sealant is really quite simple. RTV can squish out inside of the supercharger parts and it will cure after it is assembled. If a piece of that cured RTV breaks off and becomes lodged in one of the roller bearings used in the supercharger, it can wipe the roller bearing or race clean of oil during operation which can lead to bearing damage and eventual failure. Anerobic sealant, on the other hand, will only cure in the absence of air. Any part of that sealant that gets exposed to air or oil will remain in a gel form which won't be able to get lodged in any moving parts of the supercharger and cause damage. How do I know this? Simple: Proper Education and Training.
I am not going to go on with this is a build THREAD that is not mine. I didnt even read your long drawn out responce because I could really care less about what you have done, how many books you have read and where you have worked. You do it your way and I will do it my way and we can leave it at that.
I just caught the last thing you said about using RTV on the SC snout. I said use a very thin coat, that means thin as in there will be nothing there to break loose and get logded in the muffler bearings. BLAH BLAH BLAH
I can tell you from experiance at work that just because you have read some books, passed a few test, went to school for a degree doesnt mean sqaut. We hire dumbshitz at work all the time with 4 year Technical degrees and they are usually gone within 6 months becuase they lack mechanical skills. I am not saying this is you but just because you have read some books and BLAH BLAH BLAH doesnt mean sqaut to me and doesnt make you any better.
The funny thing is my reply wasnt even geared torward putting you down but you sure took it that way. Why the chip on the shoulder? I was just giving you my responce back to your reply. But hey what do I know, I only have a associates degrees(thats right I an only 2 year educated) in the line of work I do and have fun with Fieros on the side. If you want to continue this disscussion then feel free to start a Thread on it and we can.
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09:40 AM
Darth Fiero Member
Posts: 5921 From: Waterloo, Indiana Registered: Oct 2002
The funny thing is my reply wasnt even geared torward putting you down but you sure took it that way.
Oh yes it was. It is no secret that you have always had a personal problem with me for one reason or another. So don't sit there and try to bait me into an argument by insulting my intelligence and then turn around and say that wasn't your intention.
As far as I am concerned you can go on thinking that you know more about this than the people who designed, engineered, and built the very gaskets and hardware we are talking about. But that still doesn't change the fact you are wrong. If you want to work on your car your way, fine. Nobody is asking you to change. What I am asking you is to NOT present your assumptions on here as facts. There is enough misinformation floating around on the internet, we don't need any more.
I used RTV on my TB gasket. No matter what paper gasket with the rubber seal I used it kept soaking into the TB gasket above the coolant channel/port and pressuring through and pumping coolant into the SC. The RTV did not last long either, it also started leaking. Fortunetly it didn't seem to get to my bearings as I'm still using the motor. I ended up pulling the SC and tapping/plugging the coolant passages.
Back on topic nice work you're doing jimmy I like all the nice paint/detailing.
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12:48 PM
scooz14 Member
Posts: 86 From: W. Bloomfield, MI, USA Registered: May 2006
I like to cake on the RTV ! it makes me feel secure, and I like the way it feels in between my fingers. Have you ever gotten a big blob of that blue stuff and just "played around" with it?...MAN !fun stuff!!!
I like to cake on the RTV ! it makes me feel secure, and I like the way it feels in between my fingers. Have you ever gotten a big blob of that blue stuff and just "played around" with it?...MAN !fun stuff!!!
I like the way the black RTV taste on a ham sandwich with sardines-ITs GREAT!!!!!
3.5 pulley is a good size to start with if not many supporting MODs. Have you bought a scanner yet? If not then invest in one for your next MOD, it is the best MOD money can buy. Go with the LS1M scanner, its cheap and does many things.
OK.. SO I know I am behind a little on here...But THe scoring on the SC walls has had me perplexed since I saw it last wekk. Anyway I went to visit a friend this weekend and she is a S/C engineer with Catapillar in Peoria. Anyway she used to work at Eaton and even worken on the GM S/C for the 3.8. She tells me that the scoring is a result of wear. They all gain it after time and the seal between the impeller walls and impeller coatings is where the "boost" is made. Therefore...the scoring is normal but decreases performance...The worse they get the worse you run.
OK.. SO I know I am behind a little on here...But THe scoring on the SC walls has had me perplexed since I saw it last wekk. Anyway I went to visit a friend this weekend and she is a S/C engineer with Catapillar in Peoria. Anyway she used to work at Eaton and even worken on the GM S/C for the 3.8. She tells me that the scoring is a result of wear. They all gain it after time and the seal between the impeller walls and impeller coatings is where the "boost" is made. Therefore...the scoring is normal but decreases performance...The worse they get the worse you run.
Nice follow up. So now I have a question?? Can the normal wear be overcome with a different size pulley (produceing the same boost as new) Thanks Gary
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06:53 PM
GKDINC Member
Posts: 1812 From: East Tawas MI Registered: Dec 2001
My exhaust manifolds and crossover pipe were sent out yesterday to a place in Seminole FL. called A1 Ceramic Coat to be ceramic coated. The rep (George) there told me I should have them back in a week. I checked the tracking and they were delived there today at 12:15pm. Cost you ask? $145.00 + return shipping.
Nice follow up. So now I have a question?? Can the normal wear be overcome with a different size pulley (produceing the same boost as new) Thanks Gary
It will only be a band-aid and you still wont get as much top end power. One of the reasons these types of superchargers suck on high RPM engines (which is what it sees with a smaller pulley) is that the friction in the internal parts is so high, it eats up tons of your hp. Add that huge drag to barely any additional boost or even stock boost and yu can see that you will never get that power back.
I dunno, maybe slap it on for a while and save for a SeriesIII supercharger that puts out more boostthan SeriesII?
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08:40 PM
darkhorizon Member
Posts: 12279 From: Flint Michigan Registered: Jan 2006
Well first of in responce to the previous post, no roots blower has ever "put out boost" and the pulley is not his problem. He has a good exhaust, a clean intake, and the proper plugs, along with being "Custom Tuned" per say, but I dont know how that was done. The motor does not "wear" from high boost levels, if the motor cant handle the boost, it will knock, and hopefully the computer will catch it and turn down the timing to kill the knocking. I was running a 3.4 on my gtp for a few days, with no modifications, and it was knocking severly, and did not do any damage. I reverted it back to a 3.8 and still has never given me any problems.
In responce to the whole "warn blower" debate, there is no extra friction created by increased scoring on the walls, nor does an older blower mean in any normal circumstances say that the internal bearings of the blower create extra friction. Even if there was signivicantly increased friction in the casing walls, and in the bearings, it would still only rob a maximum of 1 horsepower, anything greater than that would mean
Unless you wanna tap it and run your brake booster off it. I did this on both my swaps so I didnt have to run it on top of the SC or the TB.
Got any pics of that? That sound like a good clean way to go. Also if you have any info as to what I need to buy and what I need to change to make that happen it would be appreciated.
As far as I know Lloyd at fastfieros is the only one in the US that does OBD II programming. Dan
There are at least 500 people that are quite capable of doing 3800 programming in the US, I know about 10 off the top of my head. Any 3800 vendor, wbodystore, zzp, intense, will do programming to your specification. Also there are an extensive amount of people that will do tuning for you using a DHP, but it is not considered legal in the DHP user agreement.
I am fairly sure that the motor was running decent, scooz, he was not doing anything that would suggest that knocking killed anything. There was an extensive amount of bearing material in the oil, that suggests a serious oiling failure. The strange fuild on the intake gasket, the lack of orings and gaskets in patiular places, and a completely fraudulent motor suggest that there are more things going on than a 3.5 pulley causing serious engine failure.
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04:22 PM
scooz14 Member
Posts: 86 From: W. Bloomfield, MI, USA Registered: May 2006
