On the shift cables, there are multiple approaches, if you look on the BubbaJoe's "New Project" build, he used a cable system to shift the 914 transmission, but since the audi and porsche transmission have both been used in kit cars, I am sure you can buy a cable shift system for the transmission, but that isn't the "cheap" alternative.

On the axle, I see it as a potential week point, but also if you do the 45 cut on each metal, fill it in back to solid, and then do a full wrap multi piece collar around the weld, other than it being bulky, it should be pretty strong. Talk with bmwguru, he had custom high performance axles mad for his vr6 swap, and i think audi and vw use the same style axle flanges, you might be able to get the same pieces made.

Chris

i get what your saying about the cables but what i was refering to is where do they enter the engine bay? you cant quite take them in at the factory location. i believe most of my questions have been answered, im just going to gather some more parts and get to work.

Gotcha, if you are gonna be doing a custom firewall anyway, and have to redo the interior firewall, you can pretty much make in holes in it you want to run the cables, I know in Rrunners car his cables run along the passenger side of the engine bay and come in from that side threw the "arm rest" to the shifter.

But when you are getting that custom, you can make stuff come threw where ever you want, just do a stock size whole, and use a stock gasket.

Chris

alright thanks for the info i want to stay along the lines of factory routing may just have to move them to the right/left some. trial and error. i know the first thing im going to do is make new cross member and get the thing to fit. and share those plans with guys who are tired of the same ol' 3800 swap. im expecting this to be fairly easy. i have alot of help here. i just want to get my baby outta storage.

BUMP!

well i got a tranny. not sure how it will hold up it was relitivly cheap. have fire wall out and im pretty sure its going to work. im using KEP's adapter. im wanting to make a tubular crossmember. i need it to be pretty low profile because my car sits VERY low. any suggestions on what would work well?
pics and build thread coming soon.

When you say "low profile" because your car is low, do you mean you want it to be completely under the hood? or when you say your car is low and you might want a tubular cross cradle, is that for ground clearance? I think with the torque you are going to have you might want to brace the cradle anyway, so cutting and remaking portions should be easier than a whole new cradle.

What kind of transmission did you end up getting?

Chris

ok to answer that, i do want it to be completly under the hood. and yes i want good ground clearance. my car has a lowering suspension all the way around and im going to get drop spindals for the front and figure out something for the rear, maybe coilovers.
anyways im not planning on making a whole new cradle. i hope to just make 2 new cross members for motor and tranny. i know a ton of drag racers and alot of welder/fabricators who can lead me to the right path, just thought id get some suggestions here.
the tranny is from a 86 audi 2wd who knows what. didnt matter junk yard said they had one i took it. i figure ill have to spend a good penny on getting it rebuilt but for now it serves its purpose.
by the way in no shape or form do i plan on drag racing this thing,

Have you bought a 3800 yet? what kind of power you aiming for? You might looking into a better sounding more creative engine if you are going threw this much effort.

And new cross overs would work, I would suggest what some other people have done, leave in your stock crossover while you weld on a new one, then cut it off, so it doesn't warp the cradle.

If the transmission goes into all the gears and spins pretty freely I would look into buying another one and driving that one for as long as it will last, and of course also get to use it for mock up and don't have to wait after you have it "completed" for it to be rebuilt.

Chris

well the whole point behind wanting to do a 3800 is i want it to fit without strech. its going to be close but I think I can pull it off. There are ALOT of motors I like... for instance, the S.H.O. to me is a beautiful looking motor with alot of power and would be very easy to turbo. but i dont really want a ford motor in my stock looking fiero. what do you suggest? im using a 3800 out of my other fiero for mock up. so the door is still open. dont want a big v8.

I wasn't suggesting a v8, because of course the length comes into play, I was thinking since you are using an audi transmission maybe an older 30 valve v6 built for boost, you just have to have a way to tune it. Personally I don't like the way the 3800 sounds, but if you have a 3800 fiero you know what it sounds like, and might have come to terms with it I still haven't.

A 60* v6 might look small sitting in there but a 3x00 or a tdc would be nice, and sound more exotic, there is a world of engines you can get into, and I consider the 3800 to be a easier more documented swap, and you are going past the realm of that, and might do something a bit cooler. You might even be able to squeeze a small v8, like an older audi 4.0 in there, again tuning permitting.

All depends on what you want and what kind of effort you want to take, and do excuse my opinion towards the 3800, even with great exhaust you can hear those valves just ticking away...

Chris

The 3800 although simple is honestly the most power per dollar motor I know of, period.

It is more than possible to end up with a tuned, turbo 3800 making 500hp at the crankshaft for under 4 digits. Also solves the "sound" issue once and for all.

If a small hp gain is your goal, porting stock parts would be the best value.

Then, pulling numbers out of my ass, say between 200-500 hp a 3800 gives the best hp/dollar.

Above 500 hp, LS series engine...

The most economical engine to achieve your power goals is dependent on what goal you have.

well thanks guys for the responses. this is something ive thought about alot. the 3800 is easy to make power and strong. you mention a tdc well ive said it in previous post the 3.4 is a good looking number to me and i think the sho is similar tdohc right? but the 3.4tdc simply cant make the power and be reliable. if this all works out i guarantee it wont be the last one i build.

i want to add.. the adapter i currently have works with all gm fwd. can get one for 90* v6. or ford motors.

I apologize dark, but I have a very hard time believing you can build a completely reliable 500hp turbo 3800 for less than $1000, I know it is do able, but if that is the case, you can take a stock 3400, and put a similar turbo related parts into it, run 10 psi and get in a similar power range, not quite as high, but you can do pretty good for yourself and sound better, again in my opinion. Also I don't think a turbo cures a noisy valve train, I have been wrong before though. Also I don't know what approach neon is taking, but I have spent quite a bit putting a 3800sc in my car, building different exhausts to try and make it sound good, and different little things that come with an engine swap, quite a ways past the $1000 marker, actually spend $1200 or so on a lower mileage series 3 sc, and when it comes to building a car that you are doing serious modifications to it I would be hard pressed not to find a way to get an engine I want over an engine that is easy.

Please take these as my opinions, neonraffi needs to build what he wants, and since he is building a car, and not just putting an engine in it, he should try to limit him self as little as possible.

Chris

:edit:
neon, have you measured yet to see what kind of length you will have from axle line to proposed firewall? and how much have you moved the firewall?

[This message has been edited by eph_kay (edited 11-18-2009).]

ok, measurement... just so everyone knows i didnt go hacking into a perfectly good fiero. i pick up a lost tittled fiero that had been sitting in damp muddy grass for like the past 6 years with no wheels on it. smart huh? however the interior is perfect and the body panels are in good shape as well. i can use several parts for my car so im happy. any ways what i have done is cut out a large portion of the firewall planning on moving the motor in 2.5 inches. i dont need the extra room. this makes my distance to the axle centerline roughly 24" this is where it gets tight. the adapter is 3/4" thick and the tranny is 7.825" from bell housing to axle centerline. i know i have a little room to play with, with the axles but im starting to doubt if this work. i hope it will. im so close but if i run the 3800 id like to run the supercharger meaning full belt setup. whats the length of a tdc with full pully system anyone know? is it longer, shorter, equal to a 3800? i might have to do what will fit.

Ok, i went down to the garage, 21" for a 3400 bell housing to pulley, and the 3800 was 20" bell to end of pulley 1, and another in for the second pulley. These are all rough measuring, tricky to get too precise with where my engines are placed, and I don't think I did, but I might have mixed up the numbers, all I know, is if you wanted to get creative, spend alittle more money, and have a 3800 alittle more unique, you could get a whipple and have the snout made for use on the first pulley you will get alittle shorter than the 3x00 engines, not much though maybe a half inch.

On a side note I read that an audi 4.2l v8 is <20" pulley to bellhousing on the early series timing belt engine, the timing chain engine is alittle shorter. You will probably have to megasquirt it.

Sorry I don't know if the tdc is the same, but I am sure it is very close to the 3x00 engines.

Chris

yea i dont see it working without a small strech which for my taste im not willing to do. i will try but the math just doesnt come out right. im only willing to sacrifice what room i have in the cabin. are there any more pointers? what can i do?

With given axle length, and a 5* angle set in the axle, you will get an inch or two I would think, then you can't do much else. that is when it comes down to looking at shorter engines, if you didn't have a transmission already you could look into a subbie flat 4 turbo drivetrain. But I think this set up is still do able. you just need a shorter engine, with only 24" to work with, and ~8.75" in transmission with adapter, and you get maybe 2" back with the tilted axles, you end up with 16-18" for your engine length.

This wouldn't work for the 3800sc, but you could move most of the fire wall 2.5" for the block size, then move the firewall, behind the passenger and center console, for the pulleys, allowing your self in theory unlimited space.

Chris

Also, you don't have to stretch the whole car, depending on your fiberglass skills, and if it doesn't have to look exactly stock, you could just move the wheel line back 1-2" and give your self even more room.

Chris

could someone photo shop that for me? ive been researching all night but havent found much info. im going to rethink everything and see what i can come up with.

just a thought....the ls4 is a single belt system. easily modified to get past DOD. its quite a bit shorter than the standard lsx and already comes with a remote water pump system. so how long is this motor compared to a L67. its got to be relatively close right. (now im talking total length.) this motor with a whipple.... NICE.
oh yes from the info i have seen it has the same bolt pattern of fwd v6? should work with the adapter i already have if thats so.

It is the same bolt pattern, and you have the luck of the audi transmission having the starter on the bellhousing, which the ls4 doesn't have the ability to use a block mount starter, unless you modify the oil pan. But even with the ls4 you have 4 cylinders, and the water pump is still in front, and you still have a long engine, not to kill the idea, the north star is gonna be closer to the 3800 size and is still probably too long. American engines just seam to be too long.

Chris

ok i know scott at renegades personally, i was there in his shop 2 wks ago. he is very knowledgable about v8's. i dont know that he has ever installed a v6 in anything. so his knowledge is limited on v6 applications. likely all he knows is what he has been told about the v6 engines. as far as mounting a porsche or audi gearbox longitudal in a fiero... well i have been toying with the idea myself. i build porsche race cars for a living and have the unobtanium of all porsche gearboxes... a g5052 twin turbo transaxle completely rebuilt with new ring and pinion specific for a v8 application, new gear sets, steel synchros, all new bearings, new bushings, all internals are rem coated and balanced, new seals, new gaskets, a side shifter option, and a 7075 t651 hd side plate. i will tell you upfront this is a $25,000.00 transaxle in this form with these parts.... so you shouldnt take the conversion lightly if you plan on using porsche parts. the transaxle however will take about 1000hp and 900ft lbs of torque... give or take a few. the audi trans is much cheaper, i have seen them for 125.00 used. but be careful... used trans are always suspect to problems. anyhow you can take the audi axles and have them cut down as the audi is wider tracked than the fiero. have the fiero splines cut into the outboard sides and go from there. no the audi parts wont hold 500hp though. if you want to hold that kind of hp and relavant torque you need to go the porsche route. happy motoring, mike in oklahoma

wow you guys know how to motivate someone huh? lol j/k. any ways i was looking around and one the fieroaddiction page he shows his lambo replica for sale. i know he doesnt really talk or post now but how far past the firewall do you suppse he went? looks to me about 3 inches. just curious if anyone has looked at that. and eph what are those details on those audi v8s? how would i wire that up?

Couple things to point out, the diablo kit is a stretched chassis car, and the cradle is stretched too, that is why the v12 gets to fit with only that little bit of cutting.

On wiring up the engine, well you have to use Megasquirt or some other engine management system, you might also look into an engine like the 300zx twin turbo v6.

My take on it is, you need to find a nongm v6 from the late 80s to early 90s, and see if Megasquirt already has a harness and computer programed to keep it easier.

Chris

Interesting thread. When I did my engine install, I seriously considered doing a stretch, similar to some of the 355 kit builds. Stretch the cradle, not the chassis. Since you're redoing the cradle anyway, that's no big deal. The strut towers need to be slightly modified, but that's it. Then do the body work to move the wheel wells back. The car will look much better with the longer wheelbase and shorter rear IMO. Check some of Amida's drawings if you want to see what it would look like.

Bob

Eph what i meant was he cut into the fire wall what looks like more than i intended meaning i could go a little further. Anyways I found out that megasquirt does have a kit for the Audi v8. sounding a little more interesting now. If you say its a little shorter than the GM v6 and that will cut out the adapter plate. well sounds like its getting better. I guess for more power alot of guys are turboing them. And on the cradle strech is there a good detailed build up anyone knows about? Never done anything like that and never cared to look it up.

I don't think anybody has done a cradle stretch, Amida does have some drawing that show possibilities of what it could look similar to. Do you have a link for the megasquirt audi v8 system, something I would like to have in my records if I plan a similar route.

Chris

well i havent exactly found a retail site. all i did was put in megasquirt audi v8. and alot of stuff came up. videos titled audi v8 first start with megasquirt. alot of guys are putting these in their v6 a4s. so try that. i will do more looking ive been low on time lately so if you find it send it to me. ill keep you posted tho im looking for the dimensions now tho.

http://www.gt40s.com/forum/...udi-engine-info.html

This is the place I found the abz dimensions, I will look into Megasquirt for the 4.2, I am sure a harness isn't that hard to build, and if somebody has done the 4.2 and got it tuned NA, you atleast have a great starting point to build from, I am not sure if Megasquirt even sells prebuilt harnesses other than for small blocks and lsx's, but I will do some digging too.

Chris

well i feel like an idiot. ive never done a swap of this caliber and thought it would be fun and unique. i fell under the impression that my tranny and hubs had to be inline. i was searching around on an audi forum and found a guy swapping a v6 for a v8 in his b5 i think. anyways he shows alot of pics and the angle of those axles wow. ill post the link but i should be fine doing what i want. his tranny is where the fire wall is and the wheels are in the middle of the engine. am i seeing this wrong? all should work with an angle like that. http://www.nairaland.com/ni.../topic-345843.0.html

They appear to be angled back, but not too terribly much, I would say don't go more than 5* horizontally, or you could get custom half shafts like the pantera uses and use a dual u-joint set up and run angles like the lifted trucks use

But still 5* over the length of the axle is about 9% of the full length of the axle that you can shift the drivetrain back. So 20" axle you get another 1.7"

Chris

i see well ive looked into the audi v8 but also the audi v6 2.8. i dont know the dimensions of it yet. but with a supercharger it makes easy 300 to 320 hp. should be shorter ive seen the v8s are anywhere between 20 and 22'' . the v6 sounds apealing if i could find its total length.

Joe

I think the V6 is a good approach, it will give you even more space, but I would think a twin turbo set up would probably make you more happy than a supercharger, but I am not sure, maybe a custom whipple set up would do better than the m62 kits they offer.

Chris

quote Originally posted by eph_kay: I don't think anybody has done a cradle stretch, Amida does have some drawing that show possibilities of what it could look similar to. Do you have a link for the megasquirt audi v8 system, something I would like to have in my records if I plan a similar route. Chris

The cradle stretch is done by the kitcar guys that do not want to cut the chassis. Dave (Funnywheels) was one of the first I've seen (read about) over at http://www.madmechanics.com
It is typically done by the Ferrari kits because the stretch isn't that long. You can either stretch the cradle mounting ears 3" or move the mounting points back 3". The strut towers have enough room to move them back if using coilovers.

Bob

Well Im just wanting to make this work. I do think the v6 will work great. Im not so sure if megasquirt is available for the v6 yet. I like the whissle of the supercharger though!! yea the turbo has it to but ive always been partial to the blower. yes i will be going with the coilovers and thats what i was thinking at the time was to move the mounting ears. i hope i can get everything together.