Talking with the guy from renegade about the porsche transaxles he told me that with the poor balancing of the gm v6s they make an anoying vibration and severly compramises the longevity of the transmission... My question is what makes the 3800 work with the getrag and any other fwd manual?

And my last questions is would the 3800 work with the audi 5000 transmission?

I just would love to have a twincharged longitudinal 3800 in the back of my fiero...

Chris

quote Originally posted by eph_kay: Talking with the guy from renegade about the porsche transaxles he told me that with the poor balancing of the gm v6s they make an anoying vibration and severly compramises the longevity of the transmission... My question is what makes the 3800 work with the getrag and any other fwd manual?

That sounds like an overly broad generalization to make about 3 very different v6 engine architectures and decades of development and refinement. I sincerely doubt a 3800 would experience this problem. Maybe the dude's talking about the older generation 4.3 90* v6? IIRC, the first version was a rough runner and I think they changed the crank design to smooth it out a little. The 4.3 also uses the bolt pattern that they would most commonly sell adapters for (small block chevy)

quote And my last questions is would the 3800 work with the audi 5000 transmission? I just would love to have a twincharged longitudinal 3800 in the back of my fiero... Chris

You'll need to make sure that they sell adapters for the 3800's bolt pattern. I'm not certain who does and who only has small block bolt pattern adapters.

nice idea I suppose, the whole "vibration" thing is purely false. The 4t65e-hd is proven to be reliable for 200k+ miles on MANY MANY occasions behind 3800s....

As far as the longitudnal, go for it, it wont be easy... and the gains are fairly small unless you can beef that trans for cheap. Might be cheaper to build a 65e and just do that, they readily handle 1000HP if you have the mooolah

I have thought quite a bit about insane hp, but when it comes down to i personally don't see the nessesity, don't get me wrong it would be awsome to build a car that can get to 150 mph in a quater mile, but I want to drive my car places, and drive it all the time, i have no problem with high octane pump gas but I don't want to have to run race gas, that is my only stipulation.

Here are my true thoughts, you can buy the audi transmission at junk yards for $200 or $300 I already have a series 3 3800, set up as a series 2(in wiring and fuel) so I can find another series III with pretty low miles for around $1k, do all the work my self and have a longitudinal fiero for less up front then the cost of an ls1, and I have grown to like the v6, what can I say?

The audi can handle, from what I have read, about 450 hp, not the hardest in a 3800 and why would I need more?

If I can have my dream car(of today) in stages might as well have the first and biggest stage not cost too much, hehe if all goes as planned my wheels will cost way more than everything I have in the engine


Chris

quote Originally posted by eph_kay: oh and the guy at renegade said that gm uses the fluid of the automatic transmission to dampen the vibration of the v6.

What? Transmission... equals... vibration dampener?

GM almost exclusively used automatic transmissions with 3800s because most 3800s (including the supercharged ones) went into granny and grandpa cars, not vehicles in which drivers cared to have a manual transmission. During much of the 3800's lifespan, GM essentially only offered manual transmissions with econo cars and sporty vehicles.

Anyway, I've ridden in a manual 3800 camaro and several automatic 3800 vehicles. I've never noticed any engine vibration in them, in spite of the fact that the camaro was dogged until everything other than the powertrain was falling off and/or apart.

Maybe I'm wrong, though, and there's something going on that I don't comprehend at all. Maybe someone more educated (or less self-educated) will chime in.

Like it or not GM has never been great at putting well balanced cranks in any of their engines except maybe those for real performance applications. If you take your engine apart that is always the first thing you should do.

To expand on what Fiero Brick was eluding to...

Short history of the 3.8/3800.

The 3.8 was at one time an "Odd fire" engine, which meant that the firing of the cylenders was not at a regular interval. This made it an extreemly rough engine. Then they modified the design to be a split throw crank, where they took the cylenders off of common crank pins, and split them off by 15 degrees each, this allowed the engine to now fire the cylenders at an exact regular interval. So the engine would run smoother. However, this crank was not naturally balanced by any means, so it had given up rough running for somewhat unbalanced running. This is where the 3.8 was untill the late 80's (Grand national years). Then the balance shaft was added. Spinning opposite the crank, weighted to shake the engine the exact opposite way that the crank shook the engine. The engine was now even fire (smooth running) and totally balanced (no shaking). This was introduced with the 3800 series 1. The 4.3 chevy engine went through a few of the same phases as the 3.8.

So whats the problem again?

Or maybe he was just refering to the loose tolerances of balancing GM uses when assembling any normal car engine.

What Fierobsessed said.

Pick an engine made in the last 15 years, don't fool with the internals or screw anything up, and you pretty much won't have problems shaking anything apart, much less a supposedly rugged transmission.

I think the fellow might have thought you intend to use one of the older 3.8s or 4.3s. IIRC, the older 3.8s and all 4.3s share the small block bolt pattern, which is the most common adapter bought by longitudinal swap people. I still don't quite see how the vibration from one of the older engines would shake a transmission apart without self-destructing other stuff... but maybe it could.

Ok, when I have been doing more thinking on this, and some measuring and this could quite possibly be done with a really small frame stretch...

Lets see if you guys can follow me, or let me know that I am wrong and I will shut up...
when talking with the guy from renegade he told me about when using an electric water pump you can get rid of the cumbersome water pump from the front of the block, and said that with doing this you can get the length issue of the ls1 closer to a v6, grant it he was trying to sell me one of the custom blocks, but he did make a good point that stuck in my head... anyway here is a picture of the custom blocks, hope he doesn't mind me using it... oh and I am sorry it is pretty big...



Now here is where my mind starts to wonder... suppose you use one of the remote electric water pumps on a twin turbo 3800( no super mostly to get rid of the length of it, and 2 tubos because I like things being symmetrical) If all works out right you would only have the crank running the alternator, and which this would be the hard part with the crank sensor and such, shorten things down to where you only protruded an inch or 2 infront of the block for belts...

Now after doing some measuring...

from close to the top of the firewall to the center of the axles you have about 21.5" the 3800 from block face to block face is about 16.5" assuming at most 2 inches for the pulley set up the engine will end before the original wheel line. Here is when I get excited about this build, assuming the adapter for the transmission is 1/2" thick and it is 4" to the axle line, you are now only needing to stretch the car about 1.5-2" I could live with that... but wait, after reading just about everything on renegades website they make a good point about axles, since CV joints are ment to work at just about any angle( in a 3d sense not 2d) they are said to actually performe better when they are at... I can't remember if it is 10 degrees or 15, but still at a slight angle. Now assume at stock ride height the axle is parallel with the ground that means you should be able to have the axle tilted towards the front of the car upwards of 10 degrees, or 1.5-2" just to be safe....

I am going to go and read renegades sight again about the axles to make sure this should work, but please people give me input I often see things the way I want to see them and just disregard something, but a twin turbo 3800 pushing around 700 crank through the 930 transmission with a stock wheelbase would be beyond sick.... oh and also if all I do is shorten the block by taking off the supercharger a 1-2" stretch for however trivial it would be, would be a very small price to pay for a monster like this...

Chris

electric water pumps are longer than regular ones. A CV preforms best at a 0 degree angle.

[This message has been edited by darkhorizon (edited 10-03-2007).]

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: electric water pumps are longer than regular ones. A CV preforms best at a 0 degree angle.

I believe he is talking about renegades electric water pump being shorter. From the looks of it, it is a remote waterpump with adapters that are bolted to the block. Meaning that you would have more clearance up front and you can mount the actual pump anywhere.

I could be wrong, but that is what I got out of it.

I was talking about remote mounting the water pump, oh and on the cv's what is said on renegades site that makes sense is, that when you have your cv at an angle it is moving through more of the grease, not just letting some of it sit there, and disipating more of the heat, effectivly lengthening the life of the grease and the joint its self.

Like I said I could be wrong, but they made a good point which does make alot of sense.

Chris

Universal joints (slightly different beast than CV joints) NEED to have a slight angle or they will wear out very quickly.

A CV joint perfectly level will act like a perfectly solid axle, with no moving parts.

I assume the grease idea would be valid if you had a axle at a very small angle.

They might of been talking about the universal joints, but then we ignore that we are talking about an 1 or 2" stretch that isn't bad for a longitudinal engine....

Chris

My dream would be to put the 252hp 3.6L with 251 lbs-ft from an 08 Ponticac G6 in a reverse longitudinal position using a 90s Elderado/Toronado transmission with the differential upside down.
This should provide adequate power, keep the center of gravity where it is and have minimal impact on the weight or the trunk. It would also make access to the engine accessories and belts a breeze.
I don’t know for sure, but I’d bet that there is an off the shelf bell housing that would do the trick.
You could do the same conversion with a 3800, but the transmission would be over kill as far as power handling capability.

instead of a stretch, you can move the rear firewall around the engine forward. Some interior space would be sacrificed, but from my experience, I've never needed the extra 2 inches behind my seat for anything major anyways.

I like the idea of changing the firewall, I never use behind the seat for anything, and to be honest all you would have to move the firewall forward for would be the belts and with an alt and crank you are really just talking about the bottom of the fire wall and more just working with the gas tank... I am going to work more on this idea, but I hope to get some more input on why it might not work...


Chris

You could always look at it like this, if you mount it so that your cv axles are perfectly straight. The only time those axles will be straight is when you are sitting still. The suspension will travel up and down while you are driving changing the angle of the axles anyway. I don't see where a couple degrees is going to hurt anything.

KEP makes an adapter kit for 60* V6 to Audi "016" Getrag. I bugged them for years to make it, then when they finally released it I didn't want it anymore. Guys are blowing the Audis apart with 300 hp and they are harder to find than Fiero transmissions. They are also most common with 4.11 final drive which is probably not great with a 3800.

Jon

Not to mention how long they are in the rear. It would probably stick out from under the rear fascia.

I had debated starting a new thread on going back to the porsche transmission, they are just expensive, but still think of a 700 hp longitudinal 5 sp 3800 on a close to stock wheel base...

If you look at bubba joe's car he has the stock length from wheel to bumper and with his mufflers behind the tail of the tranny it fits, I say relocate the mufflers move the wheels 2" back and keep the stock body length... but that is just hopeing until I can actually get some of the parts...

Chris

quote Originally posted by rockcrawl: KEP makes an adapter kit for 60* V6 to Audi "016" Getrag. I bugged them for years to make it, then when they finally released it I didn't want it anymore. Guys are blowing the Audis apart with 300 hp and they are harder to find than Fiero transmissions. They are also most common with 4.11 final drive which is probably not great with a 3800. Jon

Rockcrawl, You wouldnt happen to know what the stock gear ratios and final drive of the non turbo Audi 5000s is would you?. I can't seem to find out the specs

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: A CV joint perfectly level will act like a perfectly solid axle, with no moving parts. I assume the grease idea would be valid if you had a axle at a very small angle.

So does a perfectly straight U-joint, but it wears out fast. The races get brinelled and the needles get flattened by the continuous loading. If the needls move around a little bit, they avoid that (and pick up some grease like the Renegade Hybrids guy said).

hey I know this is an old thread, but anyone made progress toward a longitudinal 3800? This idea has been running through my head a lot over the last few days since I've come to believe there's no transaxle to bolt to a 3800SC and still have peace of mind when you get to the 400-450 ft lbs of torque region.

Not that I'm anywhere near that... I often lose traction in 1st just toying around and I'm only around 300 ft lbs... I'm afraid to get nice wide tires and/or mod the engine further because I just don't think any manual Fiero tranny will take it. I started reading about the Audi 5000 unit (Porsche is just out of my price range) and got my head thinking again. Turn my 3800 longitudinal, heads, cam, etc, audi tranny, frame stretch... something to plan out over the next 3 years.

I know all could be solved with the auto originally from the 3800sc... but I prefer manual.

I agree if you bring the engine into the fire wall a little bit you shouldnt have to strech the frame any. i guess the real question is what tranny could handle a twin turbo 3800. Im going to do this so lets get some more ideas going.

quote Originally posted by zi_gravedigger: hey I know this is an old thread, but anyone made progress toward a longitudinal 3800? This idea has been running through my head a lot over the last few days since I've come to believe there's no transaxle to bolt to a 3800SC and still have peace of mind when you get to the 400-450 ft lbs of torque region. Not that I'm anywhere near that... I often lose traction in 1st just toying around and I'm only around 300 ft lbs... I'm afraid to get nice wide tires and/or mod the engine further because I just don't think any manual Fiero tranny will take it. I started reading about the Audi 5000 unit (Porsche is just out of my price range) and got my head thinking again. Turn my 3800 longitudinal, heads, cam, etc, audi tranny, frame stretch... something to plan out over the next 3 years. I know all could be solved with the auto originally from the 3800sc... but I prefer manual.

I havent broke my trans yet, and the part that broke in Ryan's trans was weaker than stock. So auto means win.

If you really wanted to not break a GM trans, just put in a 287/F23. Most 282's driven with some form of sanity hold up fine as well... Holding in the range of 500whp fairly easily.

The only issue you are going to ever run into making turbo power is the clutch... There is pretty much no hope for a clutch that holds the power out there right now.

quote Originally posted by neonraffi: I agree if you bring the engine into the fire wall a little bit you shouldnt have to strech the frame any. i guess the real question is what tranny could handle a twin turbo 3800. Im going to do this so lets get some more ideas going.

Twin what?

[This message has been edited by darkhorizon (edited 11-10-2009).]

lol a twin turbo. i guess one would do it but i dont want a bunch of lag so two smaller turbos for faster response.

If I were to run a twin turbo setup, I'd mimic the design BMW uses on their luxury diesels.

You have a small turbo that spools up very quickly, but doesn't make much boost

Once that reaches full power, a large turbo takes over to handle the top end power. Remember, this system is used on large diesel sedans (and some American trucks).

I doubt you'd have to put much boost on the top end to make it scream.

that does sound like a good idea and pretty efficient too. so is any of this possible with a porche or audi, modified subby tranny? im looking to do this with no strech.

quote Originally posted by neonraffi: lol a twin turbo. i guess one would do it but i dont want a bunch of lag so two smaller turbos for faster response.

Well, duh, what turbos? It is pretty hard to make a twin turbo setup as effective as a single.

well i know alot of people with tt supra's that change them to a single set up. i really just want a good looking setup (symetrical) that gives the car a nice clean look. my fiero is sitting in a dusty storage unit just waiting to come back to life. it hasnt had a motor in it for atleast three years, so quit giving me a hard time about the small details and help me give this thing a second life.
i really like the look of the 3.4 tdc with a better intake but the 3800 is alot stronger. i just dont want what everyone else has got. i want something unique. a longitudinal swap with no strech is just what i need. i would like around 500 whp. so whats the verdict?

The 930 trans will handle the 700 hp and torque. The 3800 is possible too. Check out my CarDomain page in my signature for the 930 application.

------------------
Paul

My IMSA Build: http://www.cardomain.com/ride/789315
HHP Adjustable Sway Bars: https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum4/HTML/036556.html

well the reason i was interested in the audi is it will save on the budget some and ive sourced the adapter and clutch/flywheel. i still need info on axles, any insight on that?

bump.... come on, someone give me info on some axles. found my tranny today. getting an adapter from KEP.

I am pretty sure you can get custom axle shafts splined to fit the fiero and the audi, you can also get a fiero inner tripot and get a flange that bolts to the Audi axle flange, if they have the bolt on kind.

Here is my approach, I used this on my 3800 auto swap, if the axles are similar diameters, you can cut them both at a 45* angle, plasma cutter helps, and then weld the two axles together at the correct length, then I would suggest a multi piece bracing system welded over the weld for rigidity, then rust protect it! My uncle did a great job welding my axle, and then it got surface rust and looks pretty sad now.

Chris

ok, is that capable of holding 500hp tho? i want a good strong axle that i wont have to worry about failing. it doesnt sound like a bad plan, i might try it so thanks for the help. i got another thought that i have yet to research..... how do most run the shift cables with a longitudinal swap?