Thanks Craig, my timing cover didnt come with an oil pan gasket. I found the right one piece gasket and new oil pan for my engine from Summit.
Looking forward to the rest of your build.

quote Originally posted by Tiny: any update on thie build? sorry trying to avoid a flame war here cause there is some very good information on this thred

Tiny,
I hope everybody will bear with me about posting updates. This is not my only build. I have 4 builds going on right now and 2 of them are for other forum members, and soon it is going to be 5 builds once we aquire this other fiero for my wife. This engine is going in hers and she wants it to look like a IMSA widebody, but that will be another build.

Most of the pictures and updates will be on weekends, but I do check on the threads and post replies and comments during the week.

If anybody has any feedback or helpful advice, I am open to suggestions. I may know alot, but I do not know everything and I am always open to learning new things.

Craig

quote Originally posted by prostreet505: I don't care if someone wanted to put in a 1.0 metro engine and mod it up. Craig

I am working on that but sprint parts are so hard to find. I just need a chevy sprint carb and a vacum advance distributor and I am there 50+ MPG

Actually, I had a Geo Metro 3 cylinder for a year. It had a single fuel injector throttle body, and it was a great little car. To be fair, although it got 50 mpg the Geo is quite a bit lighter than the Fiero, and I think the little 3 cylinder would have its hands full, especially with a Fiero driver

I'll be looking in on this thread because the 305 build is just unique enough to get my interest. Please keep us posted.

Arn

test

[This message has been edited by ducattiman (edited 11-22-2007).]

quote Originally posted by Jake_Dragon: Mine is on the firewall side, 1970 block. I can install a flexable dipstick and make it easier to reach but it would be nice to just reach in and pull it out without having to dig for it.

My dipstick is on the firewall side, and I have no complaints.....It's not like I check the oil anyway....First weekend of every month I change it. Otherwise, it doesn't leak or burn any.
I'm not a fan of the 305, but to each their own. Good luck with the swap.
Dave

------------------

1987 GT (my toy-see above), 1987 GT (wife's toy), 1986 SE soon to be VR6, certified master technician/shop owner
www.njautobahn.com

quote Originally posted by bmwguru: My dipstick is on the firewall side

It just doesn't look like it belongs there
Plus I have a leak finally got the valve covers to stop leaking and now the front cover and oil pan is leaking.

I had a 305 in a Camaro and it would roast the tires anytime I wanted, I don't know what was done to it.

quote Originally posted by Tiny: any update on thie build? sorry trying to avoid a flame war here cause there is some very good information on this thred

agreed.. i personally would not chose the 305, BUT, the poster of this thread picked that engien for a reason, to do a whole 300HP buildup for less than 2 grand, and i think he will EASILY achieve it. I am interested to see the end result..

quote Originally posted by aaronrus: agreed.. i personally would not chose the 305, BUT, the poster of this thread picked that engien for a reason, to do a whole 300HP buildup for less than 2 grand, and i think he will EASILY achieve it. I am interested to see the end result..

Thanks for the support. I knew I was going to get alot of static from this build because it is a 305.

This question is for everybody,
Does anybody know the difference between the 305 and the 350? I know that the cubic inches are different. I would like to know your opinions about the major differences in the 2 engines. This is not a smart a** question. I want to know why everybody thinks a 350 is better than a 305. All you muscle car fans from the 50s and 60s should get why I am going to use a 305. I am going to see what answers I get on this question. Then I will tell you the exact reason why the 305 can be a strong powerplant.

Here is the specs on the cam I am using:

Operating Range 1500-6500 RPM
Duration Advertised 308° Intake/318° Exhaust
Duration @ .050'' 234° Intake/244° Exhaust
Lift @ Valve .488'' Intake/.510'' Exhaust
Lift @ Cam .325'' Intake/.340'' Exhaust
Lobe Separation Angle 112°
Intake Centerline 107°
Intake Timing @ .050" Open 10° BTDC
Close 44° ABDC
Exhaust Timing @ .050" Open 59° BBDC
Close 5° ATDC

Craig

quote Originally posted by prostreet505: All you muscle car fans from the 50s and 60s should get why I am going to use a 305. I am going to see what answers I get on this question. Then I will tell you the exact reason why the 305 can be a strong powerplant. Craig

I'm thinking something along the lines of a 327 with a 283 crank.

A bit less torque than a 350 & quick to a higher RPM like the old 302 engines.

Archie

Off the top of my head, the main difference is bore. As I recall from the 50's and 60's is that the 283 thru to the 327 got progressively higher rev potential because they were increasing the bore progressively. The engines got more "square" in their strokes. I think the 305 has often gotten a bad rap because of the '70's smog heads that went on. I don't believe the engine actually got a good opportunity due to the emission era and the fact that the 350 came along. Of course there is no replacement for displacement. However, anybody who has raced against a 302 or a 327 will tell you that the smaller displacement engines in a light care can really haul.

I think the word "screamer" might well apply on this build.

Arn

BTW that looks like a pretty lumpy cam. What model is it?

[This message has been edited by Arns85GT (edited 11-23-2007).]

quote Originally posted by Arns85GT: I think the word "screamer" might well apply on this build. BTW that looks like a pretty lumpy cam. What model is it?

The word screamer does apply on this build.

The cam is an edelbrock 7102

I would like to hear several more responses on my question about the difference between the 350 and the 305 before I give you the answer.

Everybody is so quick to knock the 305, but where is everybodys expert opinions on the differences between the 2.
Only 2 people responded to the question.

Craig

displacement doesn't always make power. Look at the Euro engines....low displacement....high revving power. The 305 is not that, though. It has a small bore and the stroke of a 350. If I were to try to build a screamer, I would take a 350 or 327 block....both 4" bore and destroke it with a 3" crank stroke. That will make for a high revving engine.
JMO
Dave
ps. I've seen a 305 built to the balls with a 400 crank in it.

------------------

1987 GT (my toy-see above), 1987 GT (wife's toy), 1986 SE soon to be VR6, certified master technician/shop owner
www.njautobahn.com

Yes, 3.736 in. bore and 3.48 in stroke vs. the venerable 265 ci. which was 3.75 in. bore and 3 in. stroke, and the classic 283 which got the 3.87 bore, so the 305 was proportionally a longer stroke. I stand corrected. Longer stroke should mean better torque. Right?

Arn

I looked up that cam and you should really have some impressive torque figures when it is built.

[This message has been edited by Arns85GT (edited 11-24-2007).]

quote Originally posted by prostreet505: Here is the specs on the cam I am using: Operating Range 1500-6500 RPM Duration Advertised 308° Intake/318° Exhaust Duration @ .050'' 234° Intake/244° Exhaust Lift @ Valve .488'' Intake/.510'' Exhaust Lift @ Cam .325'' Intake/.340'' Exhaust Lobe Separation Angle 112° Intake Centerline 107° Intake Timing @ .050" Open 10° BTDC Close 44° ABDC Exhaust Timing @ .050" Open 59° BBDC Close 5° ATDC Craig

wow, thats a nitrous cam! you planning on running juice? if not, I'm curious why you chose those numbers?

------------------
1986 Silver 5 speed Fiero 3.4 DOHC
Bored .30, Fully balanced and blueprinted
13.93@101mph as it is on the street. PFF's fastest N/A 3.4dohc!!!!
FOR SALE - MAKE OFFER!
... ... !
355cid 400hp/tq N/A SBC, 4 bolt main
Nitrous Oxide: 1st stage - 125shot direct port. 2nd stage - 75shot plate.
87 GT, Cryo Treated 5-speed Getrag, Gr8grip LSD, Spec Stage 3 clutch.

Normally, with naturally aspirated engines, a longer stroke will increase torque...hence the 383 stroker which is a 350 bored .030 over with a 400 crank in it. The 302 Chevy which is a 4" bore and 3" stroke, is Chevy's high revving engine and very rare.
The Ferrari's and Porsche's use large bores and very small strokes. That is why they rev quick and with correct cam selection can make some serious hp. Driving a Porsche 911 is not a drag car....it builds it's power after 3000rpms, but it is a screamer.
I am a fan of torque. I just like the "pinned in the seat" feeling.
Dave

quote Originally posted by bmwguru: ... I am a fan of torque. I just like the "pinned in the seat" feeling. Dave

Me too. For street give me torque. Move me quick in any gear. For a circuit race track then the high rev engine may be more fun.

------------------

Red: TPI V8 + 6-Speed Yellow: Nitrous 3.4 + 4 speed Auto
304rwHP/366rwTQ

Ok alittle confused here,i think u guys r confusing the terms or mixing them up..


Now when u guys say screamer ? what rpm r u starting it from to end......


Torquer.again what rpm???

My point is u can have a 383 sbc that makes it max ft lb's and hp over 6000rpm,,,

So then in what side does it belong to Screamer or Torquer

I believe that a screamer is an engine that lives over 3000rpms. A torquer is one that can pull trees down.
Dave

you can make horsepower with cubic inches or with RPMs. the 305 is somewhat lacking in both departments, but 300 HP at the crank sould be possible, even with a low cost build, if you chose your parts right. I think I recognise the cam you chose as a Summit branded Crane cam. right? if so, I had one in a mild 350 and I was quite happy with it.

Russ544

I think the screamer term applies to an engine you can rev high, however, no reason it can't have decent torque too. The cam he's showing will certainly do both. If you look on the Edelbrock website they have the torque/hp chart for that cam/intake combo and it is impressive.

Arn

The 305 shares the same stroke as the 350, but has a smaller bore. One of the benefits of using the 305, is that the couterweights on the cranks are lighter as well as the pistons, so the engine will have less rotating mass and rev faster/higher as compared to a conventional 350. The other benefit is that the 305 will have less torque through the entire powerband and will be more tranny friendly.

quote Originally posted by fieroguru: so the engine will have less rotating mass and rev faster/higher as compared to a conventional 350. The other benefit is that the 305 will have less torque through the entire powerband and will be more tranny friendly.

Hmmmm sorry guru,but i have to disagree with that,,,i know i read something about bore and stroke impacts on design,,hmm


PLS some one that has POWER SECRETS by smokey i think i read it in there in bore and stroke combinations...or i will try to find it to back my claim

quote Originally posted by fieroguru: The 305 shares the same stroke as the 350, but has a smaller bore. One of the benefits of using the 305, is that the couterweights on the cranks are lighter as well as the pistons, so the engine will have less rotating mass and rev faster/higher as compared to a conventional 350. The other benefit is that the 305 will have less torque through the entire powerband and will be more tranny friendly.

I think your thinking of the 307... the all time worst sbc ever made by GM.

------------------
1986 Silver 5 speed Fiero 3.4 DOHC
Bored .30, Fully balanced and blueprinted
13.93@101mph as it is on the street. PFF's fastest N/A 3.4dohc!!!!
FOR SALE - MAKE OFFER!
... ... !
355cid 400hp/tq N/A SBC, 4 bolt main
Nitrous Oxide: 1st stage - 125shot direct port. 2nd stage - 75shot plate.
87 GT, Cryo Treated 5-speed Getrag, Gr8grip LSD, Spec Stage 3 clutch.

quote Originally posted by ducattiman: Hmmmm sorry guru,but i have to disagree with that,,,i know i read something about bore and stroke impacts on design,,hmm

All I said was that the rotating assembly weighs less, and thus will accelerate faster. Same deal with running a ligher flywheel, less rotating weight accelerates faster.

A shorter stoke, moves the moment of inertia of the crank closer to the center (easier to rotate) as well as reduces the piston speed/momentum at any given RPM. So without question shorter strokes normally rev faster, but the 305 and the 350 have the same stroke.... so the ligher assembly will rev faster if the same force was applied to both.

One of the many benefits of the mid 90's LT1 design was the use of a significantly lighter rotating assembly (crank/pistons) to allow the engines to rev faster (and yeild more HP). The fun fact is that if you can not find a true LT1 350 crank, you should use a 305 crank because its counter balance weights are closer the LT1 than the traditional 350.

quote Originally posted by flames4me: I think your thinking of the 307... the all time worst sbc ever made by GM.

Sorry, but no. Here are the bore/stroke specs:

350 is 4.000 bore with 3.480 stroke
305 is 3.735 bore with 3.480 stroke
307 is 3.875 bore with 3.250 stroke

BTW
283 is 3.875 bore with 3.000 stroke
302 is 4.000 bore with 3.000 stroke
327 is 4.000 bore with 3.250 stroke


Don't take this as I am a fan of the 305, I typically just throw them away (after taking the roller cam goodies)... someday I will build a late model 302. I am curious to see what prostreet505 does with this build.

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 11-24-2007).]

quote Originally posted by flames4me: I think your thinking of the 307... the all time worst sbc ever made by GM.

If the 307 is the worst, the 265 in my Caprice is a close second. Whoever thought putting a 4.3 liter v8 in a 4500 pound car was a good idea needs to be kicked in the nuts.

quote Originally posted by prostreet505: Thanks for the support. I knew I was going to get alot of static from this build because it is a 305. This question is for everybody, Does anybody know the difference between the 305 and the 350? . . . I am going to see what answers I get on this question. Then I will tell you the exact reason why the 305 can be a strong powerplant. Craig

Hey Craig. I'm on your side. Although I've been a huge fan of BBC's, Big Block Olds Engines and a little run of 4 Buick Grand National 3.8 SFI turbo V6's, I've put together about 4 or 5 SBC's including 2 305 TPI's for some friends back in the early 90's.

I know exactly what you are getting at with your question...

To be 100% Fair:

Is the 305 my first choice? - No, Is it my favorite? - No. Do I think it's better to start with a 350/ 377/ 383 (personally), - Yes.

But with that out of the way . . .

I'm doing my 3rd Fiero V8 Swap now in my replica. I've mentioned it a few times in the past and I'm documenting a thread that I'll post as soon as I'm done (just so it doesn't get junked up with comments in between the pics etc). I'm waiting for my new axles now so I'll have the engine and trans back in the car within the next few weeks.

After having a Fiero with a 400 and a 350, I'm using a 305 (now 310 cubic inches) this time. To be honest....one that I got for free.. (one that I built about 9 years ago for my friend). So I guess you and I are kind of in the same boat.... With 36,000 miles, (and did I mention free) I couldn't pass it up.

I'll let the future post speak for itself but the short story is:

We needed to keep his 1987 Monte SS stock and for some strange reason, I could not convince him to just use a nicely built 350. No matter how hard I tried. He had to keep it "original" and have a 305 in there.. (yes...he was quite a tool back in the day.)

It did not stop us from putting together a nice little engine though. I picked up a wrecked 1987 IROC w/ a 305 TPI so he didn't have to touch his original engine. I removed the TPI and it's original heads and installed a spare set of Modified Monte SS L-69 58CC heads with 1.94 intake valves installed instead of the tiny 1.84's. A slight head shave/cleanup gave us about 9.8:1 compression which was a nice perk. We did a mild port job on the heads as well as quite a bit of seat, spring and guide work. Since we were going carb, I felt that the L-69 heads were a bit better (when tweaked a bit) than the stock TPI heads. I also had some older heads around that we swapped out at one point but then went back to the 305 heads.

We then followed (pretty close but not exact) a Lunati 340HP 305 build that Popular Hot Rodding did many years ago. They also did a 325 HP 305 Build as well. Between the 2 builds we settled on a pretty good combo. While the builds tried various types of heads including DART and Brodix etc, we were ok (at first) with the same Lunati cam w/ 108 centerline, .475 lift at the valves and something like a 275 degree advertised duration. I think it was their 255 or 225 grind at the time. That kind of lift was a bit much for the L-69 heads so we did a cam swap to one from the Voodoo series with .455 int and exh lift. I've still got the specs in my garage. (a 305 is very forgiving when it's SLIGHTLY over cammed to compensate for it's smaller bore size). We did modify and use a stock Chevy hi-perf oil pan with windage tray as well. Ignition was a MSD 6AL.

We (at the time) used a Performer intake with a custom made 1/2" spacer and a Holley 650 (and then a older 670cfm Marine carb), Custom made long tube headers (about as long as you can get in a G-body car.....). I'll post all of the components when I do my thread but we managed to squeak out (and dyno 2 times) a respectable 311 and then 317HP from this "little guy". (with the smaller cam). We didn't have a chance to dyno the first cam but I would estimate that we hit just into the 325HP range or so. (The G-tech pro gave us a 338HP but that thing was always a bit higher than the real thing).

I've never understood why people bash the 305 as a boat anchor. The main reason is because "it's not a 350". Other than some problems with the nickel content / block casting issues from a small group of engines (produced in Brazil or someplace crazy), there have been tons of 305's used since the mid 70's.

A little weak on HP and Torque but they were not really designed as a performance motor. They were designed during some pretty tough times and around stricter emission laws, the gas wars (I think I was 11 years old at the time) etc. I do feel that a 300HP 305 is slightly less "streetable" than a comparable 350 due to a bit more of a lumpy idle when modding the 305 like we did. Our vacuum was around 12hg and that's about my limit when running power brakes on a street car. A comparable 350 would usually run 340-350HP and still have 15-18inches of Vacuum (at least the ones that I've put together). I'd still rather have some more cubes for a performance build. (Which is the reason I've always used big blocks other than the GN engines).

Now that technology has finally "caught up", I'm REALLY Impressed at the new V8's but am equally impressed at engines like the 3800 SC. It's potential is really fantastic. The Buick 3.8 Turbo was the first "non-V8" to do that for me. Technology is great...

Oh... and on my current 310cid 305,..... I think the slight cam change, installation of a performer RPM, and installation of Corvette Rams Horn's exhaust manifolds in place of the headers, will kick down my HP to exactly the range I was looking for. 265-275HP. After dealing with leaky and cracked headers on the last Fieros as well as a very hot engine bay, I'll sacrifice a little HP for the Rams Horns....

This current project is in a Ferrari 308 replica and since I have other toys / track cars etc, I wanted something "decent on gas", enough power for a 2700 pound car and something that ran pretty cool and reliable for this last build.

So much for my short story I guess.... Good luck with your project. Keep you posted. I'll be starting a thread as well.


------------------
I'm not driving too fast, . . . I'm flying too low.

[This message has been edited by 3084me (edited 11-25-2007).]

quote Originally posted by Cooter: If the 307 is the worst, the 265 in my Caprice is a close second. Whoever thought putting a 4.3 liter v8 in a 4500 pound car was a good idea needs to be kicked in the nuts.

I have a 4.3 V8 in my Mercedes SUV....and it has some balls
....now back on topic
Dave

Okay, Archie, Arns85GT, fieroguru, you guys are on the same page as I am. The reason a 305 can be a nice powerplant is because there is less reciprocating mass to the engine which allows the engine to rev quicker and higher than the traditional 350 with the right parts, and it will be more friendly to the drivetrain components. This edelbrock performer rpm package that I am using is seriously under rated. I have used this package on several 305 builds that I have done for customers along with the edelbrock sure seat valve springs and had that engine pull to 6800 rpm. For the non believers, you do not have to believe it now. I will prove it upon completion of this build with the dyno results. This will be done for under the $2000.00 budget, that you can do on your own, which also will include engine dress up components.

3084me, thanks for your input. I think you know what the engine is capable of.

Here is a picture of the upper half of the components:





Some pictures of the tools that I will use:





Here is the original timing chain and gears:



Here is the new gear drive setup that will take the timing chains place:



The old cam and new cam:



Here are a couple of pictures of the cylinder head before I remove the valve springs and the valves:





I am going to remove the springs and valves this week and start the head work.

More to come...

good luck with that.
Joey (bmwguru's wife)

Looks like it was burning some water. Those smog heads warp easily (I'm sure you know that).

------------------
1986 SE 350 V8

I removed the valve springs and valves today and I am going to start porting the heads tomorrow and start re-doing the valve seats.







This is what was left of the valve seals:



Tomorrow I will show you how I prep the head before the porting, and start the first phase of the porting.

More to come....

Coming alone very nicely im sitting on the edge of my seats waiting to see whats next.

quote Originally posted by anonymity: good luck with that. Joey (bmwguru's wife)

I caught the joke if no one else did.

I like the Avatar too.

prostreet: I'm going to have to come up there some day & shake your hand.

Archie

quote Originally posted by bmwguru: I believe that a screamer is an engine that lives over 3000rpms. A torquer is one that can pull trees down. Dave

Following that line of thought, as I recall the original stock Hemi would about get slaughtered by any thing that pull hard off the line, but once that engine got to 3000 RPM your best bet was to move over before he hit you like a freight train at full speed.

When you port your own heads you want to take your old intake gasket and secure it to the head with a couple of bolts in the center and some tape on the ends.

With the gasket secure you can see how much of the intake port can be opened up for better flow.





Now you want to take some spray paint and give a light coat on the intake ports so when you remove the gasket, the area that has to be opened up can still be seen clearly.





After letting the paint dry for several minutes you can remove the gasket and see what material you are going to have to remove.





Tomorrow I will start grinding away and open up the ports. After they are opened up I will show you how to polish the intake ports. If you look in the picture you can see how rough the inside of the intake port is. After polishing the port it will have a nice smooth finish and allow the air to flow easier into the combustion chamber.

More to come....

I had always, read, heard and seen that leaving a somewhat rough finish on the intake side of a port and polish was desirable to allow a better atomization of the mixture, but I've never ported anything, so yea... maybe not.

quote Originally posted by Archie: prostreet: I'm going to have to come up there some day & shake your hand. Archie

Thanks Archie, but if anybody is going to shake anybodys hand, I would have to extend my hand to you, and give credit where credit is due.

BTW Archie, when this engine is close to being done, I'm going to need a automatic install kit, and if the wife has it her way, a widebody kit also.

Craig