Any Updates?
My bad, I took page two!

[This message has been edited by RumbleB (edited 10-31-2008).]

The one question I have is how much cut away to the car is needed? The cradle is a easy swap to not harm a orignal car but I have been mulling around the thought of doing something with the orignal DGP and hate to change anything so I can put the orignal engine back in if wanted. Thanks,,Rick B

I'm halfway through sticking a rear wheel drive LS into my '84, and so far the fit is very good, just a tuny bit of trimming to the passenger side hinge box to clear the valve cover. The coils and their bracket clears very well. Other than that, I have not had to do any other clearancing to my Fiero.

quote Originally posted by SuperchargedV6: The one question I have is how much cut away to the car is needed? The cradle is a easy swap to not harm a orignal car but I have been mulling around the thought of doing something with the orignal DGP and hate to change anything so I can put the orignal engine back in if wanted. Thanks,,Rick B

The LS4 is 1" shorter overall than the old SBC. It was designed for FWD applications and has the FWD bolt pattern so any Fiero or 4T65aeHD, 4T65e or 4T60 will bolt up to it. As such it should fit the Fiero engine compartment without cutting or frame notching. The LS4 appears to e a tight fit on the cradle though so lets turn this back to Jon for his comment.
Jon is known for his super neat work and meticulous attention to detail. You can bet that the finished install will be picture perfect. This Fiero should be quite fast but I just wonder what the net effect on gas mileage will be with the AFM (VVT) feature removed.

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87GT - 3800SC Series III engine, 3.4" Pulley, N* TB, LS1 MAF, Flotech Exhaust Autolite 104's Custom CAI 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
87GT - 3.4L Turbocharged engine, modified TH125H
" I'M ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

It's a tight fit on the cradle, but it doesn't require a huge amount of cradle modification to fit. It's a better fit to the cradle than a Northstar. The crank pulley and water pump have plenty of clearance at the passenger side frame rail. The tensioner pulley if left in it's stock location will require a small notch or dent in the frame, it just touches. The front idler pulley (on the water pump housing) touches the firewall behind the passenger seat. The alternator is well into the strut tower. The serpentine belt on the LS4 is the longest belt ever used on any GM vehicle, and it required the specially designed hydraulic tensioner.

I'm going to try something different than what I'd normally do. Since this car will have power steering I'm going to keep the P/S pump, and I'd like to keep the OE accessory belt routing and tensioner for reliability. This would mean a rather large modification to the right strut tower for alternator clearance. It looks like it can be done without changing the location of the top of the strut, but it will require a 2.5" coil-over spring (which was planned anyway). I've done the mock-up on an '84-87 chassis and it's no problem, but the '88 chassis has much less room between the struts. If I cannot fit the alternator in the stock position without changing the position of the strut on the '88, I will need to relocate the alternator down near the axle and notch the frame.

Jon

quote Originally posted by FieroAddiction: It's a tight fit on the cradle, but it doesn't require a huge amount of cradle modification to fit. It's a better fit to the cradle than a Northstar. The crank pulley and water pump have plenty of clearance at the passenger side frame rail. The tensioner pulley if left in it's stock location will require a small notch or dent in the frame, it just touches. The front idler pulley (on the water pump housing) touches the firewall behind the passenger seat. The alternator is well into the strut tower. The serpentine belt on the LS4 is the longest belt ever used on any GM vehicle, and it required the specially designed hydraulic tensioner. I'm going to try something different than what I'd normally do. Since this car will have power steering I'm going to keep the P/S pump, and I'd like to keep the OE accessory belt routing and tensioner for reliability. This would mean a rather large modification to the right strut tower for alternator clearance. It looks like it can be done without changing the location of the top of the strut, but it will require a 2.5" coil-over spring (which was planned anyway). I've done the mock-up on an '84-87 chassis and it's no problem, but the '88 chassis has much less room between the struts. If I cannot fit the alternator in the stock position without changing the position of the strut on the '88, I will need to relocate the alternator down near the axle and notch the frame. Jon

Woooow. You've just scared me away from attempting an LS4 swap. Sounds like a ton of re-engineering there. I do not doubt that you will get it done but this appears to be a project that will require 200-300 hours of labor. There are a few LS4 swaps going on right now but this one sounds like you've got your work cut out for you. Power steering ?????????? and then you'll need to tackle the A/C too! Sounds like a Fiero meant for an older rich guy.

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87GT - 3800SC Series III engine, 3.4" Pulley, N* TB, LS1 MAF, Flotech Exhaust Autolite 104's Custom CAI 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
87GT - 3.4L Turbocharged engine, modified TH125H
" I'M ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

[This message has been edited by Dennis LaGrua (edited 11-02-2008).]

Jon, On my 88, i built a box for the front idler pulley and recessed it into the fire wall . It only needed to be about an inch deep. I then insulated the interior side of it and it worked out fine. I also had to mod the hood hinge mount on that side and cut down the filler neck on the water manifold. I welded a cap on the top and installed an air bleed to bleed the air that would get trapped there.
Hope this helps a little, Ron

quote Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua: Power steering ?????????? and then you'll need to tackle the A/C too! Sounds like a Fiero meant for an older rich guy.

I don't want to change the subject, but what is this supposed to mean? My power steering was a HUGE step in the CORRECT direction. It handles more like a go kart now than a Fiero. And why not A/C?
I am not old or rich and I refuse to build a Fiero with out them. But I will admit the power steering I have done is for faster ratio not ease of effort.

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Yes, I forgot to mention the coolant fill at the hood hinge. I've already cut it off and welded it shut with a bleeder, and added an alternate fill point. And for the pulley at the firewall I was planning the same thing you did (RONT4.9). It won't need to be more than about 1/2" deep on this one. Do you have any pictures of your alternator mount? I have two options already figured out, but sometimes it's nice to see what someone else has come up with. With A/C delete it could go where the compressor was, but this car will have A/C.

Jon

[This message has been edited by FieroAddiction (edited 11-02-2008).]

For my swap:

--Used a smaller pulley on the water pump housing for clearance and removed the hinge completely. The pulley came off a Ford Focus timing tensioner that I found on E-bay for cheap. The pulley measures like 2.75 inched if I remember right.

--Flipped the stock Alt braket upside down and used it for a low mount Alt setup. Doing this made it impossible to use a tensioner like Darth did on his swap. I am going to use a mechanical adjuster for the belt for now. Once the Alt. was mounted low, the frame rail had to be moved in just a hair but not much at all.

--I tried everyway possible to use the stock tensioner once the Alt was low mounted but could not come up with a soultion. I wanted to be able to use it to tension the belt but I could't make it happen.

Besides that little bit everything else fits nice and tight. It is nothing difficult to do be I am making it happne and I have far less skill/tools then FieroAddition and Darth.

[This message has been edited by MstangsBware (edited 11-02-2008).]

quote Originally posted by FieroAddiction: Yes, I forgot to mention the coolant fill at the hood hinge. I've already cut it off and welded it shut with a bleeder, and added an alternate fill point. And for the pulley at the firewall I was planning the same thing you did (RONT4.9). It won't need to be more than about 1/2" deep on this one. Do you have any pictures of your alternator mount? I have two options already figured out, but sometimes it's nice to see what someone else has come up with. With A/C delete it could go where the compressor was, but this car will have A/C. Jon

Jon, Can't help you with the alt mount. My car is an a/c delete car so i mounted it where the compressor goes. I also used a tensioner similar to what Garth done, because i didn't want to cut into the strut tower and without a/c or p/s the belt could be much shorter.
Ron

I've decided not to try to fit the LS4 alternator in it's stock location. On the '88 chassis it would require the top of the strut to be moved out at least one inch, and I don't want to compromise the handling of the car. I've decided not to use the LS4 alternator at all. Since I'm going to relocate the alternator anyway I decided to use the smaller CS130 Fiero alternator. I've come up with an alternator mount and tensioner that looks like it will work pretty well, and take 19" off the belt. I don't have pictures yet, I just wanted to post an update for those who were waiting to see a hacked-up strut tower. It's not gonna happen.

Jon

Jon
When I was looking for an alternator for my 3800SC swap the one that I chose was from a 99 Astro w 4.3L engine. I was able to mount it right to the block ( so it hugs it) and then we fabricated two simple brackets to hold it in place. I am just wondering if this alternator might work as well on the LS4 swap.

Notice how short the mounting ear is on this unit.
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87GT - 3800SC Series III engine, 3.4" Pulley, N* TB, LS1 MAF, Flotech Exhaust Autolite 104's Custom CAI 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
87GT - 3.4L Turbocharged engine, modified TH125H
" I'M ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

[This message has been edited by Dennis LaGrua (edited 11-04-2008).]

quote Originally posted by FieroAddiction: I've decided not to try to fit the LS4 alternator in it's stock location. On the '88 chassis it would require the top of the strut to be moved out at least one inch, and I don't want to compromise the handling of the car. I've decided not to use the LS4 alternator at all. Since I'm going to relocate the alternator anyway I decided to use the smaller CS130 Fiero alternator. I've come up with an alternator mount and tensioner that looks like it will work pretty well, and take 19" off the belt. I don't have pictures yet, I just wanted to post an update for those who were waiting to see a hacked-up strut tower. It's not gonna happen. Jon

I took my alternator from a ford taurus its 130 amp and the actual size is smaller then a fiero and looks more modern with internal cooling fans... got mine for 20 bucks a junkyard works great. Also it has similar mount locations as a fiero. Knowing ford alternators last forever.. cant go wrong.

Check it out 98 12 valve taurus.

Thanks for the tips on the small alternators. I went with the Fiero CS130 for a couple reasons. It's simple, it doesn't require any computer to turn it on or regulate it. It's actually quite small and lightweight. Almost every part I design for an in-house turnkey swap ends up later being available for sale at FieroAddiction.com. This car will be getting a shiny new alternator, but it seems sensible to use the Fiero alternator since many people who might be doing the swap already have a working one.

I think I'm going to get the bracket powder coated, so I didn't paint it. This new setup saves almost 12 pounds over the LS4 bracket, tensioner, and alternator.








And just for fun, a few pictures of another little project I'm working on. It's got a BMW 5 liter V12.




Jon

[This message has been edited by FieroAddiction (edited 11-09-2008).]

VARY NICE!!!! Great fab work!!

quote Originally posted by FieroAddiction: On the '88 chassis it would require the top of the strut to be moved out at least one inch, Jon

Is the strut tower the only problem or is the hight also a problem?

The height was also a problem. It wouldn't be through the top of the hood, but it would require some reworking of the bottom of the hood. It looks like I'll have to do some cutting for the power steering pump anyway, so I was not too worried about it, though it will be much less now. With the low alternator mount and tensioner completed, it does seem like a better solution. I'm still a little bit concerned about the amount of tension on the belt, I hope it's enough to keep the belt from squealing. It seems like it will work well.

Jon

Very nice fabrication work on that alternator mount. Really looks like it belongs there.

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87GT - 3800SC Series III engine, 3.4" Pulley, N* TB, LS1 MAF, Flotech Exhaust Autolite 104's Custom CAI 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
87GT - 3.4L Turbocharged engine, modified TH125H
" I'M ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

It looks like you've got a good wrap on the pulley, that should help stop squealing,

Any chance of you doing a duplicate of that bracket? Price?

your making me drool all over myself

quote Originally posted by Isolde: Any chance of you doing a duplicate of that bracket? Price?

I've made a few changes to the bracket. I've added an idler to gain some clearance at the back of the tensioner and to put more wrap on the power steering pump. I also got one more mounting bolt into the head. I will make them available, but I haven't determined the price yet. I should have some more pictures by this afternoon.

Jon

[This message has been edited by FieroAddiction (edited 11-09-2008).]

quote Originally posted by FieroAddiction: I've made a few changes to the bracket. I've added an idler to gain some clearance at the back of the tensioner and to put more wrap on the power steering pump. I also got one more mounting bolt into the head. I will make them available, but I haven't determined the price yet. I should have some more pictures by this afternoon. Jon

Wow, I was just looking at the pic of your belt routing and thought that the belt looked like it was too close to the tensioner. keep up the good work.

Cheers Beers n Gearz. Joe

The problem with the belt clearance was caused by the next idler pulley up on the water pump housing. When I designed the bracket I had the stock smooth idler in place and there was minimal clearance, but enough. When I changed it to a grooved pulley of the same diameter, the belt sat lower on the pulley and it became too close. There isn't much room to go to a larger idler. An AC Delco or Gates brand tensioner would give it the extra clearance it needed, but OEM GM or Dayco brand tensioners would not fit. I really wanted the extra idler for more wrap on the P/S pump, so I just redesigned the whole bracket.

Here it is, the final product. It uses all the LS4 idlers in their stock locations, except for the small grooved tensioner pulley which is relocated to the new bracket. It mounts with three bolts into the block and two bolts into the head.










I cut the coolant fill neck off and welded a 3/8" thick plug in the resulting hole. I drilled and tapped the plug for a small bleeder to let trapped air escape. I welded a 3/4 NPT bung lower on the same water passage. This will be routed to a remote fill/purge tank, along with the purge tube that comes off the heads.



Jon

[This message has been edited by FieroAddiction (edited 11-09-2008).]

Man things I have been working on for month to get working right, you get done in a few weeks. Put me in line for the Alt mount as your design it what I was trying to accomplish but fell short of. Will the Alt mount also come with the tensioner?

More great work. Many of us 3800SC guys are watching this swap with great interest. The 3800 has been discontinued but the LS4 is still current manufacture and if a method to an efficient swap can be perfected, the LS4 may become a very popular swap.
If I may express one concern though it would be your choice of using the transmission tailshaft housing as a front motor mount point. It may end up working fine but there will be severe torque on the tailshaft end duiring WOT acceleration with this mount. How well do you feel the tailshaft mount will hold up? Not trying to play the devils advocate but this engineer just wanted to pose the question.

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87GT - 3800SC Series III engine, 3.4" Pulley, N* TB, LS1 MAF, Flotech Exhaust Autolite 104's Custom CAI 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
87GT - 3.4L Turbocharged engine, modified TH125H
" I'M ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

quote Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua: If I may express one concern though it would be your choice of using the transmission tailshaft housing as a front motor mount point. It may end up working fine but there will be severe torque on the tailshaft end duiring WOT acceleration with this mount. How well do you feel the tailshaft mount will hold up? Not trying to play the devils advocate but this engineer just wanted to pose the question.

That's a stock mounting point on the LS4 and mony other OEM 4T60E/4T65E/4T80E applications. The bracket I made looks very similar to the OEM piece I took off. Also notice the brace from the trans to the block.

Jon

Looking good. Not sure that new bracket would work with my setup. My apologies for this post if noone finds it helpful, but my own swap is a truck 5.3 into an '84 2M4, and I have a spare block being bored to 5.7. Anyway, I'm still playing with the truck oilpan, valvecovers, and dipstick, and I gotta say the truck dipstick setup is about perfect. I'll hafta trim it for the '05 vette oilpan I'm going with. But it comes up near the trunk, easier to reach by far, and clears the stock '85 decklid I installed.

quote Originally posted by FieroAddiction: That's a stock mounting point on the LS4 and mony other OEM 4T60E/4T65E/4T80E applications. The bracket I made looks very similar to the OEM piece I took off. Also notice the brace from the trans to the block. Jon

It appears that my concerns are unfounded. Didn't catch the brace from the tailshaft to the block. With that brace I would agree that everything is solid. Should have known better than to ask- its apparent that you've got it all covered. Keep the pics coming.

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87GT - 3800SC Series III engine, 3.4" Pulley, N* TB, LS1 MAF, Flotech Exhaust Autolite 104's Custom CAI 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
87GT - 3.4L Turbocharged engine, modified TH125H
" I'M ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

A whats going on BUMP!!!!

quote Originally posted by BMTFIERO: A whats going on BUMP!!!!

yes what he said.

I'm giving up on the truck 5.3 since I can get an LS4 for $1400, and it comes with the good LS6/LS2 heads. The LS2 didn't get the lighter hollow intake and sodium-filled exhaust valves, but the castings are identical. Buying the heads alone new runs $1400, so it's like getting the aluminum block free, which, by the way, also runs around $1400.

Very interesting Thread , one month bump

Sorry for the lack of updates, not much happening here. I've gotten a lot of little stuff done. Installed a Walbro 255lph fuel pump and Aeromotive regulator and spent some time with the front suspension. I'll post some new pictures shortly.

On a side note, I've purchased a Mustang chassis dyno so I can do in-house dyno tuning and road load simulation. I'm not sure how soon I'll have it up and running, but I'm really excited about it. It will be a big time saver for getting the bugs worked out of engine swaps and a lot safer than trying to tune on the street.

Jon

quote Originally posted by FieroAddiction: Sorry for the lack of updates, not much happening here. I've gotten a lot of little stuff done. Jon

I sent you a PM. Thanks.

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anything new?

quote Originally posted by FieroAddiction: Sorry for the lack of updates, not much happening here. I've gotten a lot of little stuff done. Installed a Walbro 255lph fuel pump and Aeromotive regulator and spent some time with the front suspension. I'll post some new pictures shortly. Jon

Jon: I love the Walbro pumps . I've tested them and they put our a huge volume of fuel but I dislike their loud operation. If you can figure out a way to quiet down that annoying whine, please share the secret. I'm thnking if we can double the thickness of the cushion wrap-around or somehow put some sound insulation at the top of the tank well (cavity) , it may help. Presently I pulled the Walbro on my 3800SC swap and am running a very quiet Corvette pump. Would like to put the Walbro back if a sound deadening solution presents itself. Not to highjack this post about the LS4, I started another post on the Walbro noise problem and possible solutions for deadening the sound.

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" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, 3.4" Pulley, N* TB, LS1 MAF, Flotech Exhaust Autolite 104's Custom CAI 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
"THE COLUSSUS"
87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

[This message has been edited by Dennis LaGrua (edited 05-18-2009).]

I had forgotten about this build. No progress on mine either.