quote Originally posted by RideZiLightning: I read something about fabricating stuff, molds, and bearings I assumed he meant exhaust and mounts or something for his sc and bearings etc for his motor Sorry I didn't follow the whole homemade supercharger thing... I'm so much more confident now. A home built gravity cast supercharger, sickkk

Dude, come on now, you have no idea what skills this guy possesses, and we have all seen some really amazing custom stuff come out of the members here at Pennock's. We've also seen a lot of stuff that is 100% pointless, but it still gets done.
Even you are thinking of building an '88 tubular cradle. There's really no point in that either, unless you're going to build an entire tubular frame... And yes, I've been reading that whole thread, and I think your idea is sweet too. There's even a guy thinking about building a sheet metal 4.9 intake... Why? Because he feels he can.

But the point is, you really shouldn't just bash it right from the start. White 84 SE may completely and utterly go down in flames, literally, but he's already stated that he's not that concerned about the engine. Whether he fails or succeeds, he'll learn something, but if he listens to the nay-sayers and backs out, then he'll never know, and will probably shy away from tossing more new ideas around in the future, which we don't want.

All I'm saying is negative input is perfectly fine, but that kind of negative input is senseless and creates flame wars.

Ok, I'm done with that...
http://backyardmetalcasting.com is a great place to get started for aluminum casting. The guy is very knowledgeable, and he's very helpful when he answers your email. Check out the lathe he built from scrap aluminum... it's awesome! Just be careful the alloy you use when casting your charger... I would suggest finding some old weed-eater heads and crankcases. The heads on them are usually pretty good alloy, and on that site, he shows you a good way to get them all melted down and usable... But ask him if he thinks those are a good idea for what you're doing first, cuz I've never built a supercharger, so I'm not 100% sure.

EDIT: doin' teh page pwnin dance...

[This message has been edited by fieroboom (edited 12-12-2008).]

If you had even read that you would know that it was because '88 cradles are in very short supply, and for all those that want an '88 rear end, they could have one ready to go

quote Originally posted by wftb: the super duty and the duke are not the same motors .some parts interchange and they have the same bore centres so gm could call it a stock block for racing , but the super duty is a purpose built race motor .

Not completely true. ALL parts interchange. And the only real difference between the SD-4 block and the street block are this. If comparing it to a Fiero block the webbing for the mains is thinker but it is ver much like an S-10 block with the side mount water pump on the SD-4 block and the SD-4 is a different alloy. The design is essentially the same.

quote White 84 SE:Yea that's right. I am developing a supercharger for my Duke. ...

So how long is this going to take,

or is this just a typing exercise?

[This message has been edited by 30+mpg (edited 12-16-2008).]

He didn't say he was going to build the motor, he's gunna slap his homemade supercharger on his duke

If I was asked to build the internals, I would have, but it wasn't up to me ya know lol

quote Originally posted by RideZiLightning: He didn't say he was going to build the motor, he's gunna slap his homemade supercharger on his duke If I was asked to build the internals, I would have, but it wasn't up to me ya know lol

Then don't blame the Duke blame the customer for not wanting to do it right. It's just like a computer. Junk in junk out.

white, don't back down. If memory serves, the stock internals can take up to 150 reliably, and '87 dukes and on are rated for 180. Like I said, a lot of duke mods have failed because no thought was put into the design. The unbalanced cranks cant take high revs, so what ever mods you do should take that into consideration. Pistons are a weak point, so ensure you aren't running lean and risk blowing a hole in them. Check compression and do a general look over. If its a worn engine, modding will kill it. If it seem pretty tight, you are in good shape. I think supercharging would work just fine if you keep it mild. Supercharging with a new cam could help a lot. Porting intake and exhaust on top and I could see 150+ out of the engine at safe revs. It would take a lot of time and probably a good amount of money (I'm not sure what making your own supercharger cost...)

i cant do a search on it at work , but there was a thread that someone tried a sd4 crank in a duke block and some of the counterweights hit the block .i can see a stock crank in a sd4 block though ,but that still does not change the fact that sd4 motors were not available in new fieros as previously stated .the duke was the worst thing that ever happened to the fiero.the broken connecting rods ,the fires and resulting bad publicity and the GM denials that anything was wrong drove consumer confidence in the fiero to the low levels that caused its cancelation .i want to see this motor with a supercharger though .i like watching adventures like this .if you want to see a real duke adventure , look up a thread called "big bad duke ".have fun .

quote Originally posted by wftb: i cant do a search on it at work , but there was a thread that someone tried a sd4 crank in a duke block and some of the counterweights hit the block .i can see a stock crank in a sd4 block though ,but that still does not change the fact that sd4 motors were not available in new fieros as previously stated .the duke was the worst thing that ever happened to the fiero.the broken connecting rods ,the fires and resulting bad publicity and the GM denials that anything was wrong drove consumer confidence in the fiero to the low levels that caused its cancelation .i want to see this motor with a supercharger though .i like watching adventures like this .if you want to see a real duke adventure , look up a thread called "big bad duke ".have fun .

You might be thinking of Kurt putting a marine crank into a stock duke block. It was close but nothing that wouldn't fit with a bit of grinding and shaping. Here is my SD-4 crank. I have a hard time believing it won't fit.

quote Originally posted by wftb: i cant do a search on it at work , but there was a thread that someone tried a sd4 crank in a duke block and some of the counterweights hit the block .i can see a stock crank in a sd4 block though ,but that still does not change the fact that sd4 motors were not available in new fieros as previously stated .the duke was the worst thing that ever happened to the fiero.the broken connecting rods ,the fires and resulting bad publicity and the GM denials that anything was wrong drove consumer confidence in the fiero to the low levels that caused its cancelation .i want to see this motor with a supercharger though .i like watching adventures like this .if you want to see a real duke adventure , look up a thread called "big bad duke ".have fun .

Left: Duke Crank
Right: SD4 Crank



EDIT:
Had to download & post the image on my server cuz Tripod sux!

[This message has been edited by fieroboom (edited 12-13-2008).]

Sorry about my harshness in this thread you guys

I've been spending alot of time on here last couple days due to lots of family related issues, I've been having a rough time and I apologize for being rude

Go for it, plan it out well, do everything and anything you can think of. If you are really set on something, don't let the naysayers ( me lol ) sway you

here's some help via the wayback machine(if the link doesn't work); i'll be back in the morning, sorry about the no pics, he had an interesting custom intake attached to an m90

http://web.archive.org/web/.../toniwryan/fiero.htm

[This message has been edited by baldlobo (edited 12-13-2008).]

quote Originally posted by RideZiLightning: Sorry about my harshness in this thread you guys I've been spending alot of time on here last couple days due to lots of family related issues, I've been having a rough time and I apologize for being rude Go for it, plan it out well, do everything and anything you can think of. If you are really set on something, don't let the naysayers ( me lol ) sway you

Wow man, that was a really nice thing to say!

Hope everything pans out with your family, and we're here for ya if you need moral support!

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Journal of a concept: http://southeastfieros.com >>> Build Thread >>> Parts thread (for project funding)

quote Originally posted by RideZiLightning: Sorry about my harshness in this thread you guys I've been spending alot of time on here last couple days due to lots of family related issues, I've been having a rough time and I apologize for being rude Go for it, plan it out well, do everything and anything you can think of. If you are really set on something, don't let the naysayers ( me lol ) sway you

respect

there seems to be a gear on the duke crank that is missing from the sd4 crank .is there a way around that to make the sd4 crank work in a duke ?does that gear drive the oil pump? i was on the KRP web site looking at (drooling over actually) new sd motors .the price is now over 12000.00 for a new one .they are completely custom though ,get it any way you want with gm ,ford or chrysler heads .wet sump extra .some assembly required .

Fieroboom, dude so you wanna see some fab ay? Ok then I will get that project going and see what happens. I will take pics and show them here and if the Duke blows up....good riddins but if it's way better than hey...there are a lot of guys who will be thankful. The way I see it a Super Charger is EXACTLY what the Duke needs to be better but the trend in SC has always been max power. The Duke dont need that so I gotta build my own from scratch. I wont be on this thread until I atleast can show a mold or something, PEACE!

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may i ask why the duke "needs" a supercharger?
im cunfuzed. i dont see the point. is there a piont? blah im so lost.
someone help me out!

quote Originally posted by White 84 SE: Hey guy, about those highly designed blowers... yea they are awesome but the Duke dont need awesome, it needs mild or it will stress the innerds to much. Still, its got about 100hp and I think it can take say 140 without busting. See this is all Im talking. That kind of power is not worthy for many but would feel good to me. About wasting my time.....I cant even help it. Cant stop drawing and calculating, it's crazy. About those pulleys and mounting.... I was thinking aluminum pulleys....anybody doing this? Porting the intake this weekend likely.

You sir, have just earned a place in my heart.

I have an '82 El Camino with a 305 in it, it pumps out about 190HP, which is enough to be fun for me. That sucker weighs over 2 tons, giving me about 23 lbs to the HP. If you can get the Duke up to 140 HP, that's pusthing 17 lbs to the HP, way faster, and alot more fun. Sure, it's not gonna break any track records any time soon, but damn, if I could get that kind of power out of my little 4 cyl I'd be thrilled. It may not be "Alot", but it would be ENOUGH! If you get this working well, let me know, because I want to buy one :P

quote Originally posted by fieroboom: Ye naysayers, might I direct your attention to the 68th Indy 500 Pace Car. Twas a Duke bored to 2.7L with increased compression, outputting 232hp... Also, direct thine eyes to the Jim Ford Dyno Service page and feast upon the second engine. "4 cyl. Iron Duke Super Duty Pontiac with Nickens/Chevy splayed valve head on the dyno. 183 cubic inch, 390HP, 285 ft./lbs. Used in a NHRA Competition Eliminator rail that runs 8's at over 150MPH! Launches at 7,200 RPM and goes through the traps at 9,400 RPM." In short, with the right setup, the Duke is extremely respectable. On with the show man, I wanna see some fabricatin' !! Just be sure you tear into it a little and replace the head bolts, etc, which I'm sure you plan to do anyway, right?

Okay, that's just plain insane You'd have to have snow tires on in the summer to keep from pealing out with that kind of power on such a lightweight car. Would be hilarious to leave Mustangs and Chevelle's in the dust with a 4 cyl though.

quote Originally posted by White 84 SE: Fieroboom, dude so you wanna see some fab ay? Ok then I will get that project going and see what happens. I will take pics and show them here and if the Duke blows up....good riddins but if it's way better than hey...there are a lot of guys who will be thankful. The way I see it a Super Charger is EXACTLY what the Duke needs to be better but the trend in SC has always been max power. The Duke dont need that so I gotta build my own from scratch. I wont be on this thread until I atleast can show a mold or something, PEACE!

Naw man, you gotta show somethin.... Don't just leave and come back months from now with something. Some people need the initiative of people like us that just jump in, and showing us what you're doing is priceless... Perfect example:

quote Originally posted by Twilight Fenrir: If you get this working well, let me know, because I want to buy one :P

So keep us posted. No matter how ridiculous it may seem or look, or how many failures/roadblocks you encounter, you gotta keep us in the loop... Cuz we're rootin' for ya!

Hmmm. well I guess I can post some drawings...... Check back in a day or so

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anything new? on fire etc?

Heres the design I am tinkering with.... To go where the AC compressor is. It's hot down there so heat shields and fins needed. To have the inlet vents on the Belt side rather than the traditional side because of the heat issues.

quote Originally posted by RideZiLightning: What sc are you gunna use then? Unless you get a killer deal, that right there will cost too much Just budget well and spend $1500 total on a 3800, 4.9, or 3.4dohc swap I have myself for a customer who would not take no for an answer. Tried a t3 and a t25, got to 5 psi and !pow! rod through the block. This was a crate motor too. The crank is big and weak and off balance a bit at higher rpms and the rods are longgg plus EVERYTHING is just way way way too weak I guarantee you'll will never be able to tell the handling difference with a 4.9 back there, it's only about 30lbs more than the v6

with all the accessories, my 4.9 setup weighed 15 pounds LESS than my v6. i think accessories ad more weight then most people realize

Let the guy go. He's clearly stated he's doing this because he WANTS to. I can respect the hell out of that. It's HIS car, HIS engine, and HIS money. I say rock on, dude, and keep us informed. Nobody ever dveloped something without saying, "Hey, look at this!". Good luck, man, I look forward to following your progress.

quote Originally posted by White 84 SE: Heres the design I am tinkering with.... To go where the AC compressor is. It's hot down there so heat shields and fins needed. To have the inlet vents on the Belt side rather than the traditional side because of the heat issues.

quote Originally posted by White 84 SE: Phooey, I gotta get the link to work right....

Here, I fixed it for ya:

looks cool!

woah i can't get past anything more complicated than 'plug and play' LOL

how is the air filtered? does that happen before air gets into the sc or after?

Woah cool err howdedoodat?

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84 2.5L Holley TBI Manual Trans White

quote Originally posted by White 84 SE: Woah cool err howdedoodat?

I can do it because I'm sneaky....

Once I saw it was hosted on snapfish, I knew why it wasn't working. They use a proprietary system that doesn't like hot-linking because they want you to register and pay for prints... ugh... (I happened to already know that... )
All I did was check the image properties of the broken image icon (right click -> image properties) to see where it was supposed to be, copied the url, pasted it in the address bar, and it brought me to your image at snapfish. Then I just saved it to my computer (right click -> save image as), then pushed it to one of my webservers (southeastfieros.com), which gave me my own new, simpler url to the image: http://southeastfieros.com/...ger/duke-charge1.jpg
Hehe, I even gave you your own folder...

I'm an systems admin at my work. I'm in charge of both winblows and Linux servers, programming, and network security. It takes a hacker to catch one, and so I are one...

Anyway, nice job on the drawing; can't wait to see it start coming together! If you need any more image help and don't/can't use PIP, let me know. I sent you a PM about it also.

Could always just get a photobucket account... QUick, easy, hotlinking able

paul I'm becoming more and more impressed as I chase you around pennocks is there anything you don't do?


As always the only limits to what you can do is your imagination, that and the size of your wallet

I'm not entirely sure how that's going to compress the air....

You'll want the walls to hug the fins closer than that, at the very least...

Thats nowhere near a working design. A sketch like that tells me that from an engineering perspective you don't currently possess the skills to successfully design a supercharger at this point in time.

Why not just get yourself an Eaton M62 (the correct size) and cast an intake manifold to accept it? If you get one from something like a Bonneville SSEI then you'll just have to use an 87+ iron duke crank pulley to convert to serpentine.

If you pull out a belt reference from Gates, Goodyear, or your trusty Bosch Automotive Handbook, you'll see that a single V-belt of the cross-sectional profile used by the Duke won't transmite enough power/torque to run a supercharger.

quote Originally posted by Four_hundred_86: paul I'm becoming more and more impressed as I chase you around pennocks is there anything you don't do? As always the only limits to what you can do is your imagination, that and the size of your wallet

Actually, the size of your wallet is irrelevant. Your imagination is boundless.
I just scored an '88 Formula by trading some computer services and a couple of items I don't use anymore, like gas powered RC trucks, and a set of subs with an amp, and NO money out of pocket. You never know what you can or can't do until you try, and every time you try, you learn. This is the reason I want White 84 SE to continue. He may not have the skills needed, but there are some people here that are willing to help him. The drawing he presented is only a rough sketch, and a first idea. When I started drawing my concepts, I wasted a lot of hours drawing the first 14 concept cars that I didn't totally like. Then I found it. Thomas Edison failed more than he succeeded, but he saw every failure as a test result, therefore, failure was not an option.
Dream big, plan big, build big, and fail big. Then, do it all over, but bigger. Never stop learning, because when you do, you're only a roadblock in my way. My point of view is don't tell me how I can't, tell me where to learn so I can, because if you tell me I can't, you'll be ignored, and you'll drive me harder to prove you wrong.
Whether the Duke needs a SC or not is irrelevant. He's using his brain instead of wasting it away. I have tons of crazy ideas, and if you search Pennock's you'll see a few of them: Radiator-less design, Full front trunk.
I say there's always a better mousetrap waiting to be built, and you can always re-invent the wheel.
Who the hell needs a USB Toothbrush?
Why do we need air conditioned T-shirts?
We don't. But they are made, nonetheless. America made a feeble attempt at getting the public in a more inventive state of mind with American Inventor, and most of the inventions were very laughable. Yet some of those still made into the second round...

I'm usually broke, like right now, but I need to separate my engine from my transmission, and I don't have an engine hoist. So, I started building my own. I have a 3 ton floor jack, so I welded up a frame from some steel I had, with a cradle at the bottom for the jack to sit in, and an arm from the jack to the lifting arm of the hoist. Will it work? I have no idea, but if it does, all it's costing me is $10 for a pack of welding rods, the electricity to run the welder & grinder, and most importantly, my time and patience. And if it doesn't work, I can go borrow someone's hoist, but I'm still learning, and practicing.

White 84 SE, I've got a friend that's good with CAD, so if you want a more detailed layout, let me know, and we can get it done. There are probably some other people on here that are even better with CAD than my friend is, so check around.

[This message has been edited by fieroboom (edited 12-17-2008).]

Wow i'm not exactly sure what to say to that its a huge inspiration thanks

quote Originally posted by wftb: there seems to be a gear on the duke crank that is missing from the sd4 crank .is there a way around that to make the sd4 crank work in a duke ?does that gear drive the oil pump? i was on the KRP web site looking at (drooling over actually) new sd motors .the price is now over 12000.00 for a new one .they are completely custom though ,get it any way you want with gm ,ford or chrysler heads .wet sump extra .some assembly required .

That's an 88 duke crank. The previous years don't have the gear, which is used to drive the counter-balance shafts they added that year. And that gear also makes the crank stronger than previous years, so it's the crank to use if you're beefing up any year duke, and you can't get a SD4 crank.

AH I say it will work, actually I want a mixture control because the compression will likely be more than my desired 5 psi. The impeller would be 7" or so here and the transfer tubes 2". The thing I am worried about is slowing the "fast" air enough. The design is centrifugal here so there is the directional change which would slow the speed and increase the pressure. There is also the length of tubing. It's a very small amount of pressure I want here. I am looking for 5 psi at 3000 rpm to start. Tolerances should be tighter no doubt. The sketch is not a schematic for certain. As for taxing the engine I figure the impeller should be light and not push too much air. It ought to be far less than the AC which will have to be given up.

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[This message has been edited by White 84 SE (edited 12-17-2008).]