Actually this idea is pretty complex in a way and depends on actual rather than assumed characteristics of the materials involved. For instance for the nubs to work they must be snaped into place and this requires the metal of the vane to stretch and then go back as if it were rubber or plastic but at these tolerences that is just the way aluminum acts and also steel if I make the vanes steel which might mean higher compression.....mmmm such a sensitive meeting the wall of the compresser and the vanes......hmmmm Well any way it will be way fun to make this and test for PSI prior to hooking it up proper. I mean what if I get positive pressure?!!!! Were talking horse power gains out of a Duke....?!
------------------ 84 2.5L Holley TBI Manual Trans White
[This message has been edited by White 84 SE (edited 01-07-2009).]
Actually this idea is pretty complex in a way and depends on actual rather than assumed characteristics of the materials involved. For instance for the nubs to work they must be snaped into place and this requires the metal of the vane to stretch and then go back as if it were rubber or plastic but at these tolerences that is just the way aluminum acts and also steel if I make the vanes steel which might mean higher compression.....mmmm such a sensitive meeting the wall of the compresser and the vanes......hmmmm Well any way it will be way fun to make this and test for PSI prior to hooking it up proper. I mean what if I get positive pressure?!!!! Were talking horse power gains out of a Duke....?!
Yes indeed I can't wait to see a proof of concept. Make sure you take plenty of pictures during the actual production. And, even if the first one explodes, keep at it.
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11:53 PM
Jan 8th, 2009
Scopedin92 Member
Posts: 23 From: Tinley Park, Il, U.S.A. Registered: Dec 2008
I'm not sure I followed what you said about the grease/lubricant on the vanes sealing against the slides, but any lubricant will also experience the centrifugal forces the vanes are feeling. Usually for parts such as this, seals are obtained by really tight tolerances, which only come from machining. May I ask, what sorts of tools do you have at your disposal?
You need your intake at the bottom of the picture you posted and your exhaust at the top.
Good luck! I'm glad to see that the materials are already ordered!
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02:20 AM
White 84 SE Member
Posts: 812 From: Chicago, Illinois USA Registered: Nov 2008
Well Ive tweeked the design a bit more this time adding magnets to the vanes to keep the roller pins. Since the lower 1/2 will be vacuum only the oil will gather there and less toward the engine. Perhaps this will prolong maintenence and oil re-up. Was considering graphite lube.....might bunch up..? tuesday the aluminum is to get here. I will answer some of the questions tonight, late. As for now I gotta tune the Fiero and head out to my painting studio to tend to a painting I have been neglecting. I removed the EGR and broke a bolt. Now I gotta get it out...yep PBR overnight, fingers crossed. Oh and I also lowered the intake further in a drawing I have yet to scan....later.
------------------ 84 2.5L Holley TBI Manual Trans White
[This message has been edited by White 84 SE (edited 01-09-2009).]
Well Ive tweeked the design a bit more this time adding magnets to the vanes to keep the roller pins. Since the lower 1/2 will be vacuum only the oil will gather there and less toward the engine. Perhaps this will prolong maintenence and oil re-up. Was considering graphite lube.....might bunch up..? tuesday the aluminum is to get here. I will answer some of the questions tonight, late. As for now I gotta tune the Fiero and head out to my painting studio to tend to a painting I have been neglecting. I removed the EGR and broke a bolt. Now I gotta get it out...yep PBR overnight, fingers crossed. Oh and I also lowered the intake further in a drawing I have yet to scan....later.
Hey! Magnets, why didn't I think of that... You'd want some pretty strong ones if possible... the best and strongest magnets readily available come from computer harddrives, if you know a place you can get broken HD's, just pull them appart and steel the magnets. They're very thin, but have alot of strength to them.
The drawing looks much more functional now, very nice work.
[This message has been edited by Twilight Fenrir (edited 01-09-2009).]
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10:44 PM
Jan 10th, 2009
Dennis LaGrua Member
Posts: 15725 From: Hillsborough, NJ U.S.A. Registered: May 2000
Hey! Magnets, why didn't I think of that... You'd want some pretty strong ones if possible... the best and strongest magnets readily available come from computer harddrives, if you know a place you can get broken HD's, just pull them appart and steel the magnets. They're very thin, but have alot of strength to them.
The drawing looks much more functional now, very nice work.
If you do some research, you will find that in the 1960's there was a company by the name of Judson Inc. of Conshocken, PA. that manufactured small supercharger kits for VW' s Volvos, Corvairs and other small displacement engines. Their design was almost exactly like this one. It looks like Judson may be getting back into the market: http://www.judsoncompany.com/index.htm
The vintage VW collectors apparently report that these axial flow superchargers apparently work well but because of the rotor vanes being in contact with the housing, an oil injector has to be run with in in order to mimimize wear. I am told that about 1 Qt of Marvel Mystery oil is injected every 1000 miles and the gasoline/oil mix ends up in the combustion chamber. This is the downside of using a supercharger with a vane or rotor that contacts the superchanger housing. ------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, 3.4" Pulley, N* TB, LS1 MAF, Flotech Exhaust Autolite 104's Custom CAI 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. 87GT - 3.4L Turbocharged engine, modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
[This message has been edited by Dennis LaGrua (edited 01-10-2009).]
If you do some research, you will find that in the 1960's there was a company by the name of Judson Inc. of Conshocken, PA. that manufactured small supercharger kits for VW' s Volvos, Corvairs and other small displacement engines. Their design was almost exactly like this one. It looks like Judson may be getting back into the market: http://www.judsoncompany.com/index.htm
The vintage VW collectors apparently report that these axial flow superchargers apparently work well but because of the rotor vanes being in contact with the housing, an oil injector has to be run with in in order to mimimize wear. I am told that about 1 Qt of Marvel Mystery oil is injected every 1000 miles and the gasoline/oil mix ends up in the combustion chamber. This is the downside of using a supercharger with a vane or rotor that contacts the superchanger housing.
Well, there is certainly an interesting tidbit... The bearings on the end of White's design should help with keeping things running smooth, so probably need less oil, but still, there's going to have to be some.
That image reminds me of something though... If we want to get more air into this thing, reducing the diameter of the center wheel would allow for a greater volume of air. But, for a prototype, on this particular engine, keeping the airflow down is probably a good idea. It's just something that can be done to make it have more of a kick when the time comes.
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12:10 PM
fieroboom Member
Posts: 2132 From: Hayden, AL (BFE) Registered: Oct 2008
Hey! Magnets, why didn't I think of that... You'd want some pretty strong ones if possible... the best and strongest magnets readily available come from computer harddrives, if you know a place you can get broken HD's, just pull them appart and steel the magnets. They're very thin, but have alot of strength to them.
The drawing looks much more functional now, very nice work.
I'm programmer and a packrat... Guess what I have?? Pay shipping, and I know of at least two 3.5" drives I can send you.
But... I have some concerns to express... You know I've been behind you the whole way on this, but the more components you add, the higher you increase your risk of failure, and possible risk of injury, especially when you're adding things at the ends of the vanes, where the centrifugal force is very high. All it would take is one roller flying off one of those vanes and being sucked into the intake, or worse, propelled into your head, then your assembly is severely off balance, and will eat itself, feeding more parts into the intake, and possibly your head. All you'd get is one test run, and you'd have two cracked heads... (pun intended)
However, my suggestion would be to do something simpler like Dennis mentioned that the Judson company did, but instead of using so much lubricant, check into some coatings, like maybe something similar to the Teflon no-stick coating that's on cooking pans... I haven't done any research on it lately, but I do know that Teflon technology has advanced a lot in the last few years, and is being used in many places, and can provide a pretty slick surface for your charger without having to feed it much (if any) lubricant at the vane's ends. According to wikipedia's properties of Teflon, "The coefficient of friction of plastics is usually measured against polished steel.[8] PTFE's coefficient of friction is 0.1 or less[7], which is the second lowest of any known solid material (Diamond-like carbon being the first). PTFE's resistance to van der Waals forces means that it is the only known surface to which a gecko cannot stick.[9]"
Also pay close attention to it's elastomer properties... It will most likely give you a better seal than even your bearings, and it if happens to burn or break off, it's basically just plastic, which won't do nearly as much damage.
As far as your design, I love it! Looks like you're actually getting deep into research and knowledge hoarding... welcome to my world! You sound much more informed and confident now; excellent work, and trudge on!
I'm programmer and a packrat... Guess what I have?? Pay shipping, and I know of at least two 3.5" drives I can send you.
But... I have some concerns to express... You know I've been behind you the whole way on this, but the more components you add, the higher you increase your risk of failure, and possible risk of injury, especially when you're adding things at the ends of the vanes, where the centrifugal force is very high. All it would take is one roller flying off one of those vanes and being sucked into the intake, or worse, propelled into your head, then your assembly is severely off balance, and will eat itself, feeding more parts into the intake, and possibly your head. All you'd get is one test run, and you'd have two cracked heads... (pun intended)
However, my suggestion would be to do something simpler like Dennis mentioned that the Judson company did, but instead of using so much lubricant, check into some coatings, like maybe something similar to the Teflon no-stick coating that's on cooking pans... I haven't done any research on it lately, but I do know that Teflon technology has advanced a lot in the last few years, and is being used in many places, and can provide a pretty slick surface for your charger without having to feed it much (if any) lubricant at the vane's ends. According to wikipedia's properties of Teflon, "The coefficient of friction of plastics is usually measured against polished steel.[8] PTFE's coefficient of friction is 0.1 or less[7], which is the second lowest of any known solid material (Diamond-like carbon being the first). PTFE's resistance to van der Waals forces means that it is the only known surface to which a gecko cannot stick.[9]"
Also pay close attention to it's elastomer properties... It will most likely give you a better seal than even your bearings, and it if happens to burn or break off, it's basically just plastic, which won't do nearly as much damage.
As far as your design, I love it! Looks like you're actually getting deep into research and knowledge hoarding... welcome to my world! You sound much more informed and confident now; excellent work, and trudge on!
Oh, and a + for you.
I have some magnets too... but... I'm hoarding them :P I might be able to spare one or two... if you need them :P
Teflon wears out over time though... I had to throw away my teflon kettle just the other day because it all peeled off... granted, it was one of the first in the line, and I'm sure it has come a long way... but, it will still wear off. Everything does eventually I suppose though.
That's one thing I was worried about, would be the parts flying off... BUT, we can't know if that will happen or not untill we try it... All I would say, is before you actually hook it up to an engine, you use a power-drill to articulate the axle and see if there is any problems... if not, well... only one way to find out if it works full-scale :P
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10:38 PM
PFF
System Bot
Jan 11th, 2009
wftb Member
Posts: 3692 From: kincardine,ontario,canada Registered: Jun 2005
Teflon wears out over time though... I had to throw away my teflon kettle just the other day because it all peeled off... granted, it was one of the first in the line, and I'm sure it has come a long way... but, it will still wear off. Everything does eventually I suppose though.
I have some magnets too... but... I'm hoarding them :P I might be able to spare one or two... if you need them :P
Teflon wears out over time though... I had to throw away my teflon kettle just the other day because it all peeled off... granted, it was one of the first in the line, and I'm sure it has come a long way... but, it will still wear off. Everything does eventually I suppose though.
That's one thing I was worried about, would be the parts flying off... BUT, we can't know if that will happen or not untill we try it... All I would say, is before you actually hook it up to an engine, you use a power-drill to articulate the axle and see if there is any problems... if not, well... only one way to find out if it works full-scale :P
Everything wears out... My point was it's better to wear out a Teflon coating than a bearing/wheel that will fly off.
Heh... Didn't plan on him actually using a frying pan coating... That was just to get the idea flowing. And that link is excellent input, precisely the direction he needs to go. I figure if they can make Teflon coated bullets, then there is definitely something out there that will fit his needs...
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01:49 PM
Jan 12th, 2009
Four_hundred_86 Member
Posts: 656 From: West/Central Texas Registered: Oct 2008
Hey Boom Thanks Man! Still I have been waking up to a dream of bullets flying out of the engine compartment killing the driver and passenger and causing a 20 car pile up etc... Gonna keep with the snap in pin idea! The metal got here today but I am making the wax cast tonight. Hopefully I will have the body cast in wax tonight and then it's negative in plaster. Will pic when I do of course!
Oh by the way, this supercharger (Pegasus 3) is to go before the EFI unlike the Judson which was positioned after the carb before the manifold. The Judson needed that heavy oil likely because the fuel was washing away the lubricant! I suspect those cars cant pass emissions... maybe they can? I am designing a self oiling system utilizing the vacuum quadrant prior to the intake and a gravity feed from the bottom up to a resevoir at the top. In theory it would work but not sure of the sizes of openings and tubes and the speeds of transfer etc. I will test the proto type for vacuum when its hooked up.
------------------ 84 2.5L Holley TBI Manual Trans White
[This message has been edited by White 84 SE (edited 01-13-2009).]
Hey Boom Thanks Man! Still I have been waking up to a dream of bullets flying out of the engine compartment killing the driver and passenger and causing a 20 car pile up etc... Gonna keep with the snap in pin idea! The metal got here today but I am making the wax cast tonight. Hopefully I will have the body cast in wax tonight and then it's negative in plaster. Will pic when I do of course!
Oh by the way, this supercharger (Pegasus 3) is to go before the EFI unlike the Judson which was positioned after the carb before the manifold. The Judson needed that heavy oil likely because the fuel was washing away the lubricant! I suspect those cars cant pass emissions... maybe they can? I am designing a self oiling system utilizing the vacuum quadrant prior to the intake and a gravity feed from the bottom up to a resevoir at the top. In theory it would work but not sure of the sizes of openings and tubes and the speeds of transfer etc. I will test the proto type for vacuum when its hooked up.
Awesome, keep us in the loop
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12:05 AM
Chris Hodson Member
Posts: 3099 From: Carpentersville Registered: Aug 2006
When I looked into supercharging my 3.4L GT, I looked at the different styles. The 60-degree V6 is too narrow between the heads to properly fit a top-mounted S/C from a 3800. I looked at the Judson design, but deemed the available designs to small for the engine displacement. In addition, their rarity pushed prices into the stratosphere. i see there's a couple on eBay right now.
Its at the model making stage.... having a bit of a time making what is called a "pattern". Seems like I need a lathe at least. certainly will later so I am making one now..... I will show some pics later tonight of the design... I think it will be awesome but it's being a bit more difficult than I guessed. The Supercharger that is...
[This message has been edited by White 84 SE (edited 02-07-2009).]
Alright Iv'e been trying to get this up here it is the design I am going with this time. Nope I won't change my mind. Still making the pattern.(model) so as to cast in aluminim. Will be using A357 for those interested. It will require some funky pulley action and a new custom TBI "hat" All together I anticipate it will beautify the engine compartment besides. Keep in touch
[This message has been edited by White 84 SE (edited 02-11-2009).]
Alright Iv'e been trying to get this up here it is the design I am going with this time. Nope I won't change my mind. Still making the pattern.(model) so as to cast in aluminim. Will be using A357 for those interested. It will require some funky pulley action and a new custom TBI "hat" All together I anticipate it will beautify the engine compartment besides. Keep in touch
Interesting... and, a much better looking design than the original concept.... I still wonder about the bearings on the end of the vane's, but we'll see. Keep us updated!
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10:29 PM
Feb 12th, 2009
joshh44 Member
Posts: 2166 From: Nanaimo, B.C, Canada Registered: Aug 2007
I don't think that design is going to hold up at all. I think you'd be much better going with a triangular rotor in an epitrochoidal chamber, like in a Wankel engine. There are already compressors that work in this principal.
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01:22 PM
KurtAKX Member
Posts: 4008 From: West Bloomfield, MI Registered: Feb 2002
It'd be much better to cast a manifold that will accomodate an Eaton M62 (either the Bonneville style or the new Cobalt SS style). You could actually sell something like that in quantity.
From a casting standpoint, it should be at the same level of difficulty you're going to face with this project.
Machining for that is going to be quite the undertaking and without any real engineering work behind it, you don't know much about durability/longevity or efficiency.
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04:50 PM
PFF
System Bot
joshh44 Member
Posts: 2166 From: Nanaimo, B.C, Canada Registered: Aug 2007
I don't think that design is going to hold up at all. I think you'd be much better going with a triangular rotor in an epitrochoidal chamber, like in a Wankel engine. There are already compressors that work in this principal.
What? O.o
quote
Originally posted by joshh44:
Oh
Okay, that's one of the weirdest looking things I've ever seen... seems to me though, that thing is HUGE. Judging by the vice-grip handles wiggling around just barely within visibility behind the thing. I like White's idea better myself :P
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11:05 PM
joshh44 Member
Posts: 2166 From: Nanaimo, B.C, Canada Registered: Aug 2007
Yea, the manifold idea is cool but I would just build one with a supercharger built in. I noticed it would be way convienient for the belts. As for not holding up... why not? It doesnt seem weak to me. 1/2" shaft with 1/2" vanes, I got 1/4" general housing thickness. I think it will hold but will it pruduce the desired PSI? I want good low RPM boost such as 0@ 1000 but 5-7@ 4000. Were talking single digits here but I think it is exactly what the Duke needs. As for the Roots/Eaton. It seems like it would be real easy to make a converter plate to marry the SC to the intake. P.S. I am no engineer by the way, more the artistic type but hey, giving it a try ya know?
[This message has been edited by White 84 SE (edited 02-14-2009).]
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11:50 PM
White 84 SE Member
Posts: 812 From: Chicago, Illinois USA Registered: Nov 2008
Hey Josh, I think the Wankel needs a longer expansion section so more of the the fuel can be used before expulsion. He should have used a 4 sided rotor. He mighta had a thing about 3, a lot of people do. The inherent cooling system leak problem might easily be remedied with a seperate from the engine design where it is themally coupled but completely seperate and mounted outside the engine. If the combustion area where larger than the fuel could burn more completely and this actually would keep the heat down....I think....
[This message has been edited by White 84 SE (edited 02-14-2009).]
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11:57 PM
Feb 14th, 2009
White 84 SE Member
Posts: 812 From: Chicago, Illinois USA Registered: Nov 2008
Hey can anyone help with figuring the displacement and compression rate? I dont know how to do that at all. Each chamber is 1" at TDC and 1/4 of a 4"crescent shaped chamber.... It must be possible. Perhaps I will just have to build it and then shoot so many cc's of water to find the displacement? Would that even work? After that the compression will go from 1" to very nearly nothing, say .005....
[This message has been edited by White 84 SE (edited 02-14-2009).]
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03:10 PM
White 84 SE Member
Posts: 812 From: Chicago, Illinois USA Registered: Nov 2008
I can't wait to see a proof of concept. Make sure you take plenty of pictures during the actual production. And, even if the first one explodes, keep at it.
