Last night I also began looking at the installation of the lifter girdles, the passenger side will be quite easy as it fits perfectly, there is an oil galley that lines up perfectly with the mounting holes as seen in the pics below, there are some plugs in the galley that I removed and there is over 3/8 of an inch of material to be drilled, tapped and threaded with out the bolt interfering with the oil flow I will need to fabricate some half moon spacers to provide level mounting of the girdle (this should be easy but a little time consuming)
The drivers side of the block will be as easy if not easier as the girdles have two mounting holes and one hole lines up on an oil galley like the passenger side and the other mounting hole lines up almost exactly with a large plug and boss on the same oil galley that I can reduce and place a stud in. The only question I have at this point is how far above the lifter boss these girdles ride or if they mount flush to the boss, I will make a trip to the local bone yard this week end to measure this and hopefully acquire a windage tray for the pan project.

A perfect fit


Lined up on the galley


Oil galley boss and plug location

quote Originally posted by Scoobysruvenge: I am curios about the windage tray from the 3400, the 60D website shows this conversion but it lists the main caps as part of the parts needed when doing this conversion, now I have always been taught that the block and main caps should never be mixed up, that is if the cap came off journal 1 it should always stay on journal 1 and not used on another journal, in short the block journals and caps are a matched set and using caps from another block without line boring them is a cardinal sin. It seems that I could use studs instead of the bolts for my caps and mount the tray without the 3400 caps. Any thoughts on this are welcomed.

Whats the differance in caps?
I would never mix caps either.
Can you just cut the tray?

I would say grab 2 trays while you are there. one to hack apart and one for the final product.

------------------
"DRIVE IT LIKE A FIERO"
'84 Fiero, engine to be determined
'87Blue GT 3.4L Swap Completed!!!!!!!! Boosted!!!!!!!
Las Vegas Fiero Club
Fiero Road Club Of Northern Nevada

I *think* if you use the 3400 caps you are going to have to use the 3400 oil pan... The caps and oil pan are bolted together...

quote Originally posted by Scoobysruvenge: I am curios about the windage tray from the 3400, the 60D website shows this conversion but it lists the main caps as part of the parts needed when doing this conversion, now I have always been taught that the block and main caps should never be mixed up, that is if the cap came off journal 1 it should always stay on journal 1 and not used on another journal, in short the block journals and caps are a matched set and using caps from another block without line boring them is a cardinal sin. It seems that I could use studs instead of the bolts for my caps and mount the tray without the 3400 caps.

I'm not sure how the windage tray bolts on, but the Gen III/IV main caps are cross bolted through the cast aluminum oil pan.

quote Originally posted by Scoobysruvenge: Pistons – 28cc dish hypereutectic pieces that make for that sweet 8.8 compression. Cam - Roller cam. Rods – Forged and quenched rods and caps.

The TGP comp ratio is only .1 lower than the standard 3.1 comp ration

What have you been reading about the rods? All I've heard is that they're weight matched standard V6 rods. They fold up just like standard V6 rods...

Not sure what you're getting at with the head/intake comments... Those are just stock mass-produced parts. Saying that the intake is flow matched to the heads is like saying that a nut is specifically designed for a certain kind of bolt... while true the fact is trivial.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 05-02-2009).]

Got any pics of the bottom of the engine block?
I wonder if it is a beefed up 2.8 and if it even as strong as a 3.4 block.
2.8s are just about tin foil in comparsion.

------------------
"DRIVE IT LIKE A FIERO"
'84 Fiero, engine to be determined
'87Blue GT 3.4L Swap Completed!!!!!!!! Boosted!!!!!!!
Las Vegas Fiero Club
Fiero Road Club Of Northern Nevada

quote Originally posted by sardonyx247: Whats the differance in caps? I would never mix caps either. Can you just cut the tray? I would say grab 2 trays while you are there. one to hack apart and one for the final product.

Don,

I some more info resourced from the 60D site http://www.60degreev6.com/c...3_Windage_Tray_Gen_2
What I have found discredits my notion for the need of main caps in this swap (article misread by me in haste) Only the studs and tray are needed for this swap. I like the two trays idea. Things sometimes don’t go the way you want the first time around.

LOL... junkyard epic...

Will,

The compression ratio is actually 8.75 or 8.78 and while yes it is a small reduction, it is a turbo friendly reduction further reducing detonation, it is just one more addition to the long list of well thought out modifications made to this engine.

This is what I have on the rods the stock part numbers are 10078995 and 12515767 the turbo GTP rods carry a special part number 10070113 and are listed in the Chevy power manual as C-1037 heat treated rods with 1050 air quenched caps, the evidence removal of material on 5 of the rods and 4 of the caps an obvious sign of a thorough balance job as you stated above. I will shot peen these rods for xtra insurance as well.

The heads and intakes are most definitely matched to each other and were designed to provide the maximum flow they are the result of a lot research by GM over 3 generations of development with these engines, however not what you would call custom heads due to the massive numbers produced, they are however, extremely potent with large valves and awesome flow numbers from the strait from factory, as witnessed on the 60D site from the modest flow numbers increase they list on a worked set of heads, in fact the numbers are so good that they have to open up the combustion chambers to get more flow from the stock heads. If you get a chance to look at a set of these heads you will see how incredibly smooth they are from the factory and I’m not just blowing smoke here.

Again I think a lot of you guys are hating on this little engine that could, wake up and smell the coffee guys the list of factory parts I have assembled for less than 700 dollars is a who’s who list of engine mods and characteristics you would pay in excess of 4000 thousand dollars or more to buy comparable components and services from the parts store and machine shop. You guys may have your doubts that this little engine is the real McCoy but the proof is in the pudding and there’s plenty to go around with this little engine. I have included a link for some of you below.

http://www.stophating.html

“I think I can, I think I can, I think I can”

Actually you posted up a hosed up link... here is the link I think you ment...

Detailed technical and general specs

Which one Carbon??????

Last night I was taking some measurements for the holes that need to be drilled for the lifter girdle when my brother mentioned using a link type lifter (two lifters connected by a bar) and custom length push rods.
I liked the idea of not having to machine any new holes in the galley by going with the link type lifter. Now this solution is not with out its own problems, for example they only show the stock lifter available for these engines, now comp cams sells billet custom grind cams for these engines I would be shocked if the did not sell matching lifters which can have a link bar added or modify the stock lifter with a bar this could be a possible solution to the problem.
Another method for overcoming this problem is finding a lifter from another engine, any engine that carries the desired bore size with a link type lifter with the correct bore spacing. This may not be an option due to the 60Ds tight bore spacing but, I feel there is a Japanese engine with the correct spacing out there.
I will post what I find here as I find it. In the end this will be a better option over machining the block. Anything you guys can come up with in the way of help would be welcomed….

quote Originally posted by Scoobysruvenge: Again I think a lot of you guys are hating on this little engine that could,

I'm not hating on the engine, dude. I'm just commenting that you're gushing about how well matched heads and intakes are that were designed for each other... Of course they're well matched. Don't throw out your shoulder patting yourself on the back.

GM still screwed the pooch in developing the Gen III parts, though, as the designers were wedded to the idea of crossing the runners to the opposite bank for "more torque". If they'd brought the runners straight down from the plenum into the ports they would have had a much better port entry angle and gotten higher output from the V6's. A 3400 with the same specific output of an LS6/405 would make 250 HP.

quote Originally posted by Scoobysruvenge: Last night I was taking some measurements for the holes that need to be drilled for the lifter girdle when my brother mentioned using a link type lifter (two lifters connected by a bar) and custom length push rods.

That sounds familiar... oh yeah...

quote Originally posted by Will: Roller cam retrofits are accomplished in SBC's via link bar lifter pairs. I don't think those are available in the right configuration for the V6. Do you have the "headroom" between the lifter boss and cylinder head for the link bar, even if you have to make (and heat treat) your own link bars?

So what's the lifter bore spec for a V6/60 vice SBC?
Also, check this thread out: https://www.fiero.nl/forum/A...090219-2-079184.html

quote Originally posted by Scoobysruvenge: I feel there is a Japanese engine with the correct spacing out there.

A Japanese roller lifter pushrod engine... do tell.

I *am* helping... I'm just not a nice guy. Deal with it.

Good luck with your build! Its always exciting to see a new 60*v6 swapper.

Although I admire your dedication and hard work you are kinda working backwards. The TGP short block is not that much different than regular gen2 short blocks, they are not that great. They may have all these fancy add-ons that you adore but, IMO the weaknesses out-weigh the advantages. YOu would be much better off starting with the entire gen3 engine and adding turbo. The 3100/3400/3500(non-vvt) engines take very well to boost and are very dependable @ 10psi. The factory roller cam & cross-bolted mains along with better oiling are just a few of the benefits of starting with a gen3 engine.

Good luck with you'r build. I know you arent trying for max power, just thought I'd add my $.02. Btw, I'm in the proccess of my 3500 Turbo build. I'll probably be faster and have less $$$$ into it than a stock L67 swap! haha!

-Joseph

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1987 Fiero SE/Fastback - 3100HO (Ported LIM, Ported Heads, Competion Valve Job, LS6 Springs, 3500 UIM, LX5 65mm TB) / 4t60e full manual / ZZP shift kit / 7730 ecm Emulated w/Ostrich - Boost coming soon!

This is why I post here, you guys can be very helpful, even though a guy like Will is curt and abrupt at times he often has good points make, in my haste to post my latest piece of interesting 60D info I mentioned maybe getting the lifters from a Japanese engine, then Will brought me back to earth with his stinger missile (rocket scientist pun) Japanese engines are almost all over head cam designs and he also sent a link to a thread where someone had performed this swap with a reasonable amount of trouble. Now many of us would have been discouraged with this disconcerting information, but you guys ought to know Scoob never lays down and only paddles upstream against the tide of forum members who have tried to convince me to lay down my 60D TGP block and fall in line with the 3400 and 3800 guys like a lamb to the slaughter. I say it again those who think outside of the box are to be rewarded and with a little home work and the help of my local machine shop I found that Crower sells a set of link style lifters specifically for the 60D v6 application Crower part # 66208-12 for 372 $ and the local machine shop owner gave me his price of 330 $ for the set, how awesome is that no machine work no notching to make things work and no fabrication of custom link bars.
I would like to thank those responsible for pushing me in the right direction even though it may have not been in the direction they may have envisioned (ABANDONING THE LITTLE ENGINE THAT COULD), so here it goes… Will if wasn’t for your hard nose observations and willingness to step on the little guy I probably would have missed this one.

“Sampson rose up and slew the Philistines with the jaw bone of an ass”

If us "haters" didnt like what you were doing, we wouldnt post in this thread. I am a stickler for proper information, and keeping forum rumors to a minimum, and I catch a whole load of crud for it here.

quote Originally posted by 87_special: Good luck with you'r build. I know you arent trying for max power, just thought I'd add my $.02. Btw, I'm in the proccess of my 3500 Turbo build. I'll probably be faster and have less $$$$ into it than a stock L67 swap! haha! -Joseph

87

My guess is you are a short fella, and the whole mine is bigger than your thing is comming off a bit phallic, but I appreciate your input anyway. Thanks for your help

I thought some of you under dogs out there might like to see the Crower link lifter pics (www.Crower.com)….

Awesome... never would have thought those existed. Now, are they still made and can you get a set?

I was shocked to find them myself, apparently there is a large following of these engines in the sand rail circlers in Cally and the mid-west, Speaking with the Crower rep. I found out they sell custom grind cams, springs and roller rockers that fit with out modification to these engines. This makes things a lot simpler as I was going to spend 4-500 dollars on a cam and lifters so for 5-600 I don’t have to machine the block. I’m stoked and will order a set a soon as I can spare the scratch to buy them.

I have started on phase one of the engine (the bottom end) this will encompass a windage tray, crank scraper and piston oil system. The windage tray I sourced from the local junkyard for 10 $ including the main bolts and stud nuts. I researched 60 D crank scrapers and found a single source that was not a custom order piece. I found the scraper on the 60D website http://wot-tech.com/shop/al...scraper/prod_19.html it is a Ishihara-Johnson piece, I thought I might try to get a better price so I called Ishihara direct finding the number at their website http://www.crank-scrapers.com/prod01.html but their price was the exact same as the 60D website 58 $ so I ordered it from the 60D site since I have sourced so much info from their site.
I did get to speak to the proprietor about weather or not he thought I should use the Teflon scraper he sold, and he said that I would get no advantage unless I was exceeding 6500 RPM and suggested I use the metal scraper, install a screen and some extra drain holes to really increase value of the stock 60D windage tray. I have listed the current status of the oiling project below…..


The organ donor has been wheeled into the shop and is ready for the oil pan to be harvested.



The cannibalized oil pan was cut leaving several inches of material to mount the bars for testing. The pan was cut with a wide cut port-a-ban and saw-zawl, this should allow for visual testing and manual adjustment of the oiling system, once tested it will be transferred to the good pan and mounted with a template to ensure that the exact same mounting location of the bar in the real pan.



I used a piece of ¼ inch I.D. thick walled tubing for the bar material and cut it as long as the pan would permit, I’m sure it will be shortened before I am finished, you know what they say better t have too much than too little.



As you can see placing the bar along the edge of the pan gives a nice strait shot right on to the crown of the piston.



The next step was to see how close to the con rods I could place this bar and in the pic you can see I can slam the bar right up to where the block meets the pan.



I marked my rail using a laser level as my guide and it worked extremely well, on the low tech side I used duct tape to mark the tube and the ran a black sharpie around the edge of the tape to mark the centerline of the oil jet.



The tube then received a spot weld on each of the marked lines using the tube seam to keep them in a perfectly strait line. This was done to add some extra material to the tube even though it probably did not need it. I will use a 28 thousands bit in the end mill to drill these holes and a slightly bigger bit to orface the opening of the hole (no 7 dollar jet needed) however I do feel that I could do this by hand if I did not have access to the mill.



Here is the tube with the spot welds and rolled into approximately the right angle. I now need to put the rods and pistons back so I can mount the windage tray and crank scraper, so as to ascertain whether or not I will mount the bars to the pan or to the windage tray I prefer to use the tray but we will see how making it all fit in a neat and workman like manner will go.



Here I have the second tube installed this on will be a little trickier as it has a bend in it for the offset of the pan I plan to run a cross over tube between the two rails over the front main cap and tie it to the pump directly, provided the pump has enough material to drill and tap for a braided line to feed the bar, if this is feasible I well plumit out of the pan by welding a stub through the pan.



This is what I have so far I will keep you guys posted as I work to complete this phase of the build.

Good stuff, keep the updates coming!

Cheers

Here is the total cost and source of the parts so far:

1988 Fiero Formula 2.8 V6/W Automatic – 1100 $ Personal sale Greenbelt Maryland

1990 Mclaren TGP 3.1 engine – 500 $ Cosner Auto Parts Charlottesville Virginia

1987 Fiero GT 5 speed donor car – 400 $ Personal sale Elkton Maryland

2001 Malibu 3100 top end – 140 $ Circle Auto Parts Petersburg Virginia

Windage tray, main cap bolts and nuts – 10 $ Chesterfield Auto Parts Richmond Virginia

Ishihara-Johnson crank scraper – 62.99 $ 60Degreev6.com

2 ft ¼ inch I.D. heavy wall tubing – 2.72 $ The Shop Charles City Virginia

Total 2215.71 $

test....

a

I am still waiting on the crank scraper from 60D so I figured I could still make some progress fitting the windage tray in to the pan. I removed the main bolts and replaced them with the junkyard pieces that have the studs on top for mounting the tray.
My ego sais to replace the bolts with new ones and my wallet sais to use them, I will need the egg nuts replaced for sure, I could probably reuse these nuts but one of these babies flying around the in the low end would be catastrophic. When I order the nuts I will see how much they are asking for these bolts.
The next step was to try and fit the windage tray, now I knew I was going to have to modify the tray from the windage tray article found on the 60D site. http://www.60degreev6.com/c...3_Windage_Tray_Gen_2
The red lines in the pic below are where I had to remove a very small amount of material around an 1/8 to 3/16 from the edges of the tray. I simply to the tray to the grinding wheel and shaved off the desired amount. I the soft filed the edges and hit them with some 100 grit paper and cleaned it with some WD.



There was mention of the two front tabs on the tray hanging over the block in the 60D thread and the pic they show has a considerable amount of the tray hanging over the block. The tray I have will need little or no modification on these tabs, I may need to touch them with a file to make sure they don’t rub a hole in the tray as they are close.



I need to find the dipstick tube and clearance the tray for the dipstick if needed. I will post the info when I locate my dipstick and tube. The dipstick boss and tube from the TGP are different from the Fiero, I will try both and see which one fits the application best, if the Fiero tube is used I will need to weld a new mounting ear as the stock one will not mount to the aluminum head.

I thought I would include some pics of the latest addition an end mill and a lathe, hopefully my brother and I will get the table set and wire these up this week end, they should prove useful friends of the program.





Thanks for looking

code:

---

           Stock/Street   Stock/Street
Lift(in.)| 3400  Intake | 3400 Exhaust
  0.050     31.6/ 32.6     27.1/ 25.4
  0.100     55.4/ 55.9     53.0/ 55.3
  0.150     78.1/ 79.9     78.4/ 84.8
  0.200    101.3/105.0     98.4/106.1
  0.250    125.4/130.8    116.8/124.2
  0.300    148.1/155.1    133.8/138.9
  0.350    170.0/177.3    144.4/148.8
  0.400    187.8/197.2    151.5/155.8
  0.450    201.1/212.3    155.1/161.6
  0.500    210.1/224.1    157.0/168.1

---

Sorry ugly tables bother me

[This message has been edited by carbon (edited 05-14-2009).]

Thanks for covering my back again Carbon you are a real pal in this den of vipers.