quote Originally posted by Scoobysruvenge: here are figures to back up my claims of the excellent design and flow of the stock head.

Don't know why you think you need to do this... nobody's disputing that the aluminum heads are better than the iron ones.

quote Originally posted by Scoobysruvenge: long runners are for the real world applications as where power is needed from 1500 RPMs and above so corners can be carved up.

If you're trying to carve a corner at 1500 RPM, you're either in a wrong enough gear to have your license suspended or bouncing your Peterbuilt off the governor.

Check out the fantastic powerband of a TPI 350 for an example of a classic long runner design... Above 5000 RPM it's just making noise. Compare that to the powerband that the SAME long block will make with a Holley Stealth Ram and you might start to get the big picture.

quote Originally posted by Scoobysruvenge: The LS1 springs are only 80 $ I don’t mind spending the money if I have to, but if there is a cheaper option for the same effect I will take that route every time (no pre-Madonna here) now here is what I want to know is any one running the LS1 springs and how do they perform? The turbo engine for street use loves a stock cam shaft now I will juice the cam to match the flow numbers on the heads and I’m sure it will end up as something close to a stock cam profile. I am just looking for a quality spring I don’t mind buying the Comp Cam springs if I really need them, but my suspicion is I don’t. Some of the members have mentioned 3500 springs are used on the 3800 engines and should work on my 3400 heads. Any help or info on the LS1 springs or the 3500 spring swap would be appreciated. Sorry about the multiple posts I was having trouble getting this question to post and had to put it in 2 parts

The best springs out there now are the crow cam or the SI 105 springs, they have a tame open pressure, and a high closed pressure making for a good boost spring, and moderate RPM operation. They are also very tame on the stock timing set. You can get the springs from zzperformance.com , intense-racing.com , or send an email to the guy at PRJperofrmance.com. PRJ would bend over backwards helping you find the perfect spring for your setup as well.

The LS1 springs have a lower closed pressure, but a higher open pressure than the 105's. The 3500 springs are about the same open pressure and slightly less closed pressure than a 105.

Obviously you are going to need to machine the seats for the LS1 springs, and not at all for the 3500 or 105 aftermarket springs.

Edit to add....

PRJ offered a set of springs to me at $130 a set, I think zzp has some of the crow cams for $125

http://www.zzperformance.co...hp?id=1008&catid=104

Make sure that with any of these you verify the spring seat size.

And if you gave me a few days, i more than likely could get my hands on some LS1 yellow springs for next to nothing... like 40 bucks.

[This message has been edited by darkhorizon (edited 05-14-2009).]

I got a little time to play last night. I looked at the tabs on the windage tray and feel confident will not have to modify them as you can see in the pic they clear the pan by a 1/8 of an inch.



The dipstick will need no modification, it lines up perfectly in the factory hole.



I began fitting the bar with the offset and ran into a problem immediately, the windage tray was slammed right up to the narrow side of the pan and the spay bar when laid over the top of the tray the bar rides too high for it to fit in the shallow end of the pan and when the bar rides below the tray it contacts the rod caps. I am now left with two options modify the tray or modify the spray bar, I plan to do both.





I already have to fab the bars and I don’t want to screw up a perfectly good tray, so I revised my plan to mount the spray bars to the windage tray.
This is not without problems of its own. This means that I will need to come up with a creative way to tie in the oiling system to the tray. This is of small consequence as the using the tray to mount the bars eliminates the a lot of problems that would have to solved transferring the bar from the cut pan to TGP pan accurately.
The oil feed to the spray bars can be solved by tapping an oil galley (not going to happen) or welding a coupling to through the pan and tying in the bar in with a braided hose and the other to the brass T as planned.

28" Of Water Depression, 3.700" bore used. Clay shaped entrance for intake, round tube on the exhaust.

WOT-Tech/60DegreeV6.com
________________________________________________________________________________

FLOW QUIK Compare Data Report
________________________________________________________________________________

No. Date Test Name Manufacturer Model
--- ---------- -------------------- ------------------------- --------------------
1 10/12/2006 3.4 DOHC stock ex Chevy
2 10/3/2006 3.4 DOHC stock In Chevy
________________________________________________________________________________

CFM
Lift No. 1 No. 2
-------- ------- -------
0.0500 52.2 51.6
0.1000 99.5 101.2
0.1500 137.7 150.1
0.2000 163.7 190.1
0.2500 183.7 220.1
0.3000 195.9 245.9
0.3500 203.2 265.7
0.4000 210.0 277.6

Where are you going with this Coin???

Don't know where you're coming from, man, but I've driven and autocrossed Fieros for years. I took my Northstar car to Deal's Gap and had a blast... I kept it on the boil and never had any issues controlling power delivery. The only time it was at 1500 RPM was in the hotel parking lot.

A) The Fiero has fantastic traction, which enables tremendous off-corner acceleration. If you're trying to accelerate out of a corner at 1500 RPM, you're throwing away perfectly good seconds. I don't care how flat an engine's torque curve is, that engine will make more power at 3000 or 4000 RPM than at 1500 (unless it's a diesel or something else assinine). Since the Fiero (even the '88's) has terrible brakes and only moderately good suspension, you have to push the chassis natural advantages for everything they're worth... which means you need to be in the engine's proper powerband--RPM between peak torque RPM and peak power RPM--when coming off a corner. An engine that makes peak torque off idle belongs in a truck, not a sports car.

B) Since the engine's airflow is low at low RPM, the MAP climbs to ambient at a very low throttle opening. This essentially turns the throttle into a switch, throwing away most of your ability to modulate power delivery. The throttle can not an must not be used as a switch. Keeping the engine RPM up expands the range of available engine power to fill the entire travel of the throttle pedal and allows power delivery to be modulated. I've never had a problem dialing up *just* the right amount of power to push my tires for everything they're worth, but I've been driving a variety of V8 powered cars with prodigious torque my whole life. Maybe your right foot just needs to be recalibrated. Pretend there's an egg between your foot and the throttle...

I'm a fan of anything fast. Small Blocks are the quintessential expression of fast for cheap and easy. I like the Northstar because it's a fantastic world class engine (at least it was in its day). As I get deeper into this Bimmer I just bought, I'm appreciating BMW drivelines more and more as well.

I have no idea where you got the idea that I was comparing anything about a SBC and a V6/60 other than the runner configuration that I used as an example.
Yes, I do have TPI experience. I worked with ALLTRBO to build his boosted TPI 350. I've worked with my Dad on the TPI 400 in his '75 Jaguar. I know that TPI sucks because the party's over just as soon as it starts. TPI has fantastic midrange punch and moves the 4000# Jaguar quite well; on the 400 it's done by 4500 RPM; 5000 with on a 350. That's not a sports car engine. The Northstar has a significantly shorter runner, still makes enough torque to accelerate a Fiero from 1000 RPM in 5th gear, yet can pull to and beyond 6500 RPM. It does NOT have a flat torque curve, as it gains about 75 ftlbs from 1000 RPM to peak torque, but it is a fantastic engine for a tight course, as it has a lot of punch within an accessible powerband. You just can't stick it in one gear and go like you would a truck.

4.9? Them's fightin' words.

quote Originally posted by Scoobysruvenge: Dark, I put a call in this morning to ZZ and they will have a tech call me back, thanks for the info on the springs. The LS1 springs are they used on new? Where can you get seats for the LS1 springs, and how much are they? What type of machine work has to be done to the head to accept the LS1 springs? Any help on these questions would be appreciated. “Continuous effort - not strength or intelligence - is the key to unlocking our potential”

I wouldnt be able to offer much more than just the springs per what I am used to in the 3800 world. I just know I can get some used LS6 springs for next to nothing.

The Ishihara crank scraper arrived and I was highly disappointed in the product that was sent, now before I bash it, it is well machined at all of the contact surfaces, good templates look to be used for the two plates and it fit well. Now the bad, it looks like it was welded together by kindergartener late to the snack table, or more likely some poor underpaid and undertrained employee with two left thumbs and fisted fabed it up.



The clearance for the scraper was almost 90 thousands of an inch, the gauge in the pic is an 80. I will need to be sent back as there is no way to adjust it. Now Ishihara-Johnson has an excellent reputation and over 20 years of experience in the race world and I plan to call them today and see what can be done. My brother pointed out that there are no casing marks on the weights and lobes of the crank, this means that some material was removed from the crank, I am assuming that this is another step in the TGP cranks treatment, maybe to lighten it or balance it possibly???? This maybe why there is too much gap.

quote Originally posted by Scoobysruvenge: Will, Wow a road racer, rocket scientist, master engine builder and quarter mile racer, this is starting to sound like a Forest Gump movie, were you a shrimping boat captain as well??? Your analogy of road racing sounds like you really have never been on a road course, tight track or even between a set of cones. You can church it up all you want, but you obviously have no real experience on the subject road racing or ever tried to tune an on off throttle problem out of a car that races around corners. The very fact that on off throttle problems are researched so widely by all walks of road racers from the local dirt track to the professional ranks, means that these guys are off the throttle at near idle and back on at near idle in a racing situation, if the engine never fell below 3-4000 RPM during the race on/off throttle wouldn’t even be talked about, but it seems that there is a huge amount of technical material on the subject in every racing circle. If it were anyone else I would have expected “ wow those heads really are bad a$$ “ but from you I expected this type of response…. So let’s compare your boat anchor 4.9 heads to the 60D heads and compare flow vs. cubic inch for these stock heads and see who wins. “and Lancelot threw his gauntlet to the ground”

quote Originally posted by carbon:

LOL

I figured someone was bored.....

I gotta save that smiley....

Cheers

You got a prescription for that?

Will,

Never bring a knife (especially a dull one) to a gun fight….

Your Caddy motor has 1.5 liters more displacement than the lowly 3.4 and only manages 20 more HP, if we figure HP per liter…..

60D OHV 3.4 engine = 180 HP

4.9 Caddy Engine = 200 HP

180 HP / 3.4 = 52.94 HP per liter

200 HP / 4.9 = 40.81 HP per liter

You need to put some ice on the big red hand print on your cheek it’s beginning to swell, and as big as your head is we don’t want any more of that……

All in fun Will, All in fun.

“First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win”

WTF is going on in here?

LOLOLOLOLOL.

Last I checked Wills motor is the 4.6L Northstar, which in the higher of the two tunes does 300 as installed. 4.9? What?

quote Originally posted by Blue Shift: LOLOLOLOLOL. Last I checked Wills motor is the 4.6L Northstar, which in the higher of the two tunes does 300 as installed. 4.9? What?

And he has also ran faster in the 1/4 than this build could only dream of running.

quote Originally posted by Scoobysruvenge: [morecompletelyabsurdrants]blahblahblah[/morecompletelyabsurdrants]

You sir, are an idiot.

All in fun!

"What did the five fingers say to the face?... SLAP!"

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 05-19-2009).]

Earlier in this blog I stated that the Gen 3 60D heads were an awsome set of heads, and that heads like these with splayed valves, heart shaped combustion chambers, 1.76/1.42 valves, D shaped exhaust ports….. would be a small block owners wet dream for 2500 $ much less 140 dollars at the junk yard.
Most of you were receptive to the style of build, more for less using as many factory parts as possible. The optimist gave me great advice, the pessimist pointed out the things I hadn’t contemplated and some of you have added salt and pepper to the language of the build.
Now some of you questioned, some of the statements made in this blog, but I unlike most of the people throwing stones here have provided evidence to back up my claims, only to have some other slander of the information I have provided cast and made to look sheepish without sand, character or fact, the heads are a good example of this.
I enjoy this type of banter and fun, so take my embellishments as strike against the hypocrisy that exists here, but don’t take it personal

So if I have stepped over some line here, let me know.

“Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfils the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things”

Dude... seriously? No one needs to back up a 300 HP Northstar claim... thats what they came from the factory with in the high output tune in the Caddy STS and som others... the other was 275 HP that came in the lower trim Caddys

It all depends on what VIN motor you start with...

I said that Will had a 4.6 on the first page...

quote Originally posted by ALLTRBO: Will knows his stuff, and has a 32-valve DOHC 4.6L V8 in his Fiero...

First page as well, 13th post. It seems you ignore everything I say. No problem, good luck with your build and more absurd ranting.

You can read all about the 300hp claim all over the internet... its a factory number, and most consider it to be underrated, as many people have dynoed nearly 300 (as you linked) which would suggest 320-340 crank hp in comparative situations. It also has a fairly flat power curve compared to the TDC 3.4.

I am willing to bet that there are nearly double the northstars out there in junkyards, with decent mileage or not blown up, as they are typically a stronger motor than the TDC 3.4s.

Anyway, I found some LS6 yellow springs for you, he said $80 shipped for 16 of them.

quote Originally posted by Scoobysruvenge: Your analogy of road racing sounds like you really have never been on a road course, tight track or even between a set of cones.

quote Originally posted by Scoobysruvenge: Will, There is no reason to call ALLTURBO and his ride "cheap and easy" and say that his engine "sucks" and I thought you liked ALLTURBO?????

I don't know what you're smoking but I WANT SOME!

Seriously, dude, do you even read what you're trying to reply to?

test