Thanks, Dark but I can get a set locally for that price. I appreciate you looking.

quote Originally posted by Scoobysruvenge: Small Blocks are the quintessential expression of fast for cheap and easy.

Do you know what quintessential means?

To save you time,

–noun
1. the pure and concentrated essence of a substance.
2. the most perfect embodiment of something.
3. (in ancient and medieval philosophy) the fifth essence or element, ether, supposed to be the constituent matter of the heavenly bodies, the others being air, fire, earth, and water.

quin·tes·sen·tial (kwĭn'tə-sěn'shəl)
adj. Of, relating to, or having the nature of a quintessence; being the most typical:

Do you know what the definition of cheap is Ill save you some time


Available at a low price

Of little value

Petty

Dishonorable


How about Easy????

Not difficult

Comfortable

Tranquil

Not oppressive

Do these words aptly describe a TPI 350 ??????

I will use it in a sentence…

I’m sure All Turbo’s build was neither cheap nor easy.

Wow....You may have a problem

Edit... Seriously, I don't understand you...what are you trying to prove with all the preaching? plenty of people are using the 6/60 platform...Hell, I am using one.

[This message has been edited by Coinage (edited 05-20-2009).]

quote Originally posted by Coinage: Wow....You may have a problem Edit... Seriously, I don't understand you...what are you trying to prove with all the preaching? plenty of people are using the 6/60 platform...Hell, I am using one.

That was my point on the first page of this thread... I bet he laughs to himself a lot.

Coin,

No points to prove here, only intellectual discussion. I don’t know about you, but I was unaware of how well the 60D parts performed, until I researched them because of the discussions I have had in this very thread.
And as a hot rod enthusiast I like to know all about my vehicle, down to the last nut and bolt. I also enjoy debating the merits of said hotrod and its associated parts with friend and foe alike.

Dark,
Yes, I laugh allot when I am enjoying myself and this blog has had some good laughs and been allot of fun as well.

Thanks for all the input into this thread, it has made my project that much more enjoyable.

“A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject”

quote Originally posted by Scoobysruvenge: Thanks, Dark but I can get a set locally for that price. I appreciate you looking.

I said THE SAME thing to my friend when he told me that price... I suggested $50-60 as a reasonable price, he may consider taking it if you are willing to pay it.

Dark,

That sounds more like, I am interested so let me know.

Forget all these V8 rants, and get back to building a REAL engine, a 60D V6 Turbo
Boost = Replacement for displacment :P

quote Originally posted by Scoobysruvenge: 87 My guess is you are a short fella, and the whole mine is bigger than your thing is comming off a bit phallic, but I appreciate your input anyway. Thanks for your help

Wow. So I offer up good sound advice and you try and belittle me with childish insults? WTF dude? BTW I'm not short (6ft tall) and I've never left a woman unsatisfied.

Maybe you should pull your own head out of you're own ass and wake the **** up. You are giving us 660 guys a bad rap. Just because your tgp junk is "oh so cool" in your opinion, doesnt make it the best or better. The 660 engines have their own merits along with just about any other engine swapped into a fiero.

Have fun spending all that money on your tgp junk just to make a little hp over a stock gen2 engine with a turbo added.

I will continue to watch this thread, but I will offer no more friendly advice.

"...and Joe said, "wake the **** up" to the the tgp fan-boy."
(see I can make up stupid quotes also)

------------------

1987 Fiero SE/Fastback - 3100HO (Ported LIM, Ported Heads, Competion Valve Job, LS6 Springs, 3500 UIM, LX5 65mm TB) / 4t60e full manual / ZZP shift kit / 7730 ecm Emulated w/Ostrich - Boost coming soon!

quote Originally posted by 87_special: "...and Joe said, "wake the **** up" to the the tgp fan-boy." (see I can make up stupid quotes also)

He doesn't make them up, he just fails to add the attribution.

I had a little time to spend over the long week end to work on the spray bars for the pistons…..

I began working on the cross over tube by bending a piece of tubing into a 90 cutting it close to what I thought it should be, with a little extra of course and set in it in the pan.



I measured the bottom of the pan clearance and my tube was to long as expected so I trimmed it to fit.



I had to place it almost right up against the oil pump so it would clear the front of the pan as well.



The cross over tube will need to fish mouthed and holes drilled in the bar so that this piece can be welded. This will have to wait until I have the bars tacked to the windage tray as they will need to be rolled to their final mounting location and tacked into place before I can drill the holes for the cross over tube.
On to the spray bar fab.

I purchased two sizes of bits from the Chesterfield Trading Company # 80 and #70, the 80 being the smaller size to be used to drill a pilot hole and the 70 for the final 28 thousandths hole. The cost per bit was 1.50 $ I bought 3 of each.
I tried to take a photo of these bits but they were wicked small. The micro phenomenon also created the first problem I would run into…. The drill bits were so tiny that I had no chuck small enough to hold the bit.
A quick call to the trading company revealed that they did indeed sell a hand tool with a screwdriver handle and a chuck for jetting carburetors. I was off, 12 miles there and 12 back. The damage for the tool was a reasonable 15.42 $ An hour or so later I arrived back at the shop and faced my next problem…..



I had planned to place the bar in the drill press vice and use the roller table to make sure each hole would be at exactly the same angle. A hand drill would absolutely not do for this job.
In order for the oil to hit each piston in just the right spot using a bar instead of individual spray nozzles meant that each of the three holes needed to be in a perfectly strait line. When I lay the bar in the tray and pressurize it for testing, I will simply roll the bar as it pumps oil to ensure that it is hitting the first piston at BDC on the crown of the piston. The other pistons fall in line with the first and will line up perfectly after the first piston has been aligned. Then tack it into place once every thing is set (That’s the plan anyway)
I took the hand tool, cut the plastic handle off with a portaban so that only the chuck was left and then took that chuck and chucked it up into the ¾ drill press chuck.
Problem solved back to business.
I then placed the bar in the vice, leveled it and took a hand file and flattened off the welds so I would have a nice flat surface to start my drill bit.
I then laid the bar back in the pan and used the laser level to mark it once more for the exact location of the jet holes.



With the chuck ready I reached into the tiny Ziploc bag and tried to grasp a bit, but was unsuccessful, so I tried to push one of these babies through the plastic and snapped it in half right off the bat. One down two to go.
I finally got one chucked up in the press, placed the bar in the roller table, leveled it and locked it into place. I was finally ready to get this party started.



I chucked up a #80 bit and went to work, within 30 seconds SNAP went the second 80 bit. I was extremely careful not to overload the bit with to much pressure, but I was unsuccessful. I used only the weight of the drill head and still snapped the thing.
I chucked up my last # 80 bit and went to work even more carefully than before and two minutes in SNAP all gone.
I looked at the pitifully shallow hole I had created and decided that I would take my chances without the pilot hole and would go strait to the # 70 rather than continue in this exercise of futility.
I chucked up a spanky new # 70 bit put a drop of cutting oil on the bar and went to work, 5 minutes in SNAP! Fortunately I was able to remove the broken bit fragment from the tiny hole. It looked to be halfway through the weld and I was getting a little greedy right before it snapped. Take your time I told my self and chucked up another # 70 and went to work gently, one minute in SNAP! I got lucky again and got the fragment out with out difficulty.
One bit left and frustrated I called the local machine shop and asked if they could do this for me, he said yes and asked if I had used cutting oil before I started and I smugly said “of course I used oil” he then informed me that I should not use oil as it clogs the threads on these tiny little bits, binds them up and then breaks them. With all the humility I could muster I apologized and thanked him for the advice.
Armed with my new found knowledge I chucked up my final # 70 bit and went to work. I finished the first hole, the second hole and on the third hole on the first spray bar just as I began to break through the wall of the tube SNAP! went the last bit f$^@ s%#$ g%$ d@*&...
Back 12 miles to the trading company to acquire more bits. I purchased the last 5 he had at a 1.50 $ a piece.
As I sat at a stop light on the way home SNAP! something cut loose under the hood of my truck. I then heard a low ticking noise, not a mechanical one and it was following the idle. I got out raised the hood and determined that the timing belt was broken, although not completely. It sounded like part of the belt whacking around in the cover or maybe a tensioner problem. The idle was a little rough so I shut it down immediately and called for a tow to prevent bent valves and the like as this is an interference engine.
My day was done.

I will post progress on this as it happens, thanks for looking.

quote Originally posted by Scoobysruvenge: I thought some of you under dogs out there might like to see the Crower link lifter pics (www.Crower.com)….

I just looked at these. You do realize that these are solid roller lifters and not hydraulic, right? Are you planning on using a solid-roller cam and lifters? Should be interesting, except the need to adjust them alot due to being a solid lifter.

Notice the bottom of the pic "*Item shown may not represent exact product." I spoke with the rep and they are hydraulic lifters.

Thanks for the interest.

quote Originally posted by Scoobysruvenge: Notice the bottom of the pic "*Item shown may not represent exact product." I spoke with the rep and they are hydraulic lifters. Thanks for the interest.

That's interesting. As I looked through the Crower PDF catalog, the part number you listed (66208-12) is listed under their solid roller lifter section and there is no part # listed for the 60* V6 under their hydraulic roller section of the catalog. Maybe one of those retrofit lifters for another engine will work in the V6. I was so amped about the possibility that I called the Crower rep and he said that they do not make a hydraulic roller lifter / cam to retrofit our engines. It sucks when you get two different people giving two different points of information. Further investigation is required. Good luck on your build....interesting stuff.......I love the "Doing it my way" attitude. Build what YOU want to build.

quote Originally posted by Scoobysruvenge: rb

How much research have you performed regarding the oil spray on the bottom of the pistons? The current system on the newer engines is pressure sensitive via the nozzles in that apparently the pistons are not hit with oil spray until a certain pressure is reached. With 6 ports and no minimum opening pressure you may run into lubrication problems as the oil temp rises and the resistance against oil flow drops. If you have already addressed this potential problem and I missed it disregard, otherwise you may need to locate individual pressure sensitive nozzles to tap into your feed rail allowing large enough drill bits to be used and no longer having to deal with the trouble you are having now with them breaking.

Blaze,

I spoke with the rep about a month ago on these lifters and as you I was stoked, but you got me wondering, so I called back today and spoke with Jerry in tech support and these are indeed solid lifters and Jerry said that there was a hydraulic lifter offered but it has been discontinued for some time and is no longer available.
This changes things, but not by much in my book.

There some pros and cons to using a solid lifter set up.
Any thoughts you guys may have on this subject are welcome.

Joe,

I am aware that there will need to be a check valve system in place, my plan is to install one check valve in the center of the crossover tube.
I looked at the individual jet route and I could get ones small enough to work without a check valve for about 8 $ or much larger jets with a ball valve for 25 $ a piece.
After looking at the room I have and talking with the owner at BLP I went the route he suggested. Simply drilling 6 28 thousandth holes (pointed at the hot side of the piston) in the bar and using a check valve on each bar or using a single valve on the crossover tube to regulate the oil at idle and high torque. I choose the single valve.
Now drilling and tapping the bar to accept the jets was my first choice but after talking with BLP I decided against it. This is what they said…
Jets that get screwed into a tapped hole will almost always rotate and eventually begin to back them selves out of the hole, even when lock-tite is used. The cause of this is there is 50 or 60 lbs of pressure trying to push the jet out of its socket, this coupled with the huge fluctuation in heat an cool cycles leads to the jet eventually working its self loose (not a good thing to have rolling around in the crankcase).
The BLP method drills a hole from the back side, leaves a little material at the end and the jet is then screwed in from the back. This means that the oil pressure is pushing the jet up against the stop material and will prevent the jet from ever backing out.
This option is not available with the bar method due to the lack of material.
When I hook up the temporary oil feed with a regulator and shop air I will test several check valves at multiple pressures for the best performance. These little valves can be had for 5 $ or less at the local parts store. If you have some other ideas I am open to suggestion.

Thanks for your interest.

Beat down again and the pestilence of converting the block to roller accessories has become a heavy burden to bear. Yesterday on a furrowed brow I sat and contemplated the abandonment of the TGP block and using a modern block with the lifter girdle bosses to make life easy, but then something washed over me… Pride and it was stinging my a$$, no way I was going to accept failure and suffer at the hands of my enemies and besides I’ve been stubborn my whole life why give up now.
As I stewed with a bitter taste in my mouth, I looked for a linked lifter set up for my TGP block exhaustively only to be met by the sayers of not and turned away.
So I decided that if I could not buy what I wanted I could make it. My first instinct was to drill a set of hydraulic lifters and buy or make some link bars, so I called and spoke with Jerry at Crower Cams. Jerry said they did indeed sell the link bars at 5 $ a piece, but that they would not drill the lifters. His reasoning was that the lifter will crack 50% of the time and no telling how many lifters they might go through trying to get a complete set.
Back to the drawing board.
Next I cross referenced a 3400 lifter looking for a match in another engine. They listed the 3.1, 3.4 and 3.8 all as the same lifter. I surmised that some one must sell a linked lifter for the 3.8 and began to search.
I found some manufactured by Comp Cams 366.00 for a set, I called them and asked if I sent the link bars from Crower would they swap the bars out, he said no. I called Crower and asked if they would swap the bars and they said no as well.
Jerry at Crower said they would he would sell me a set of pins as you cannot reuse the old ones once you grind the swage off. Crower sells screw in pins that are swaged. I’m not sure what type of pin Comp uses, but I’m hoping that all these companies use a similar product. I will confirm my suspicions when they open today. I will let you guys know what I find.

“Many of the great achievements of the world were accomplished by tired and discouraged men who kept on working.”
Unknown Author

There's no long term need for concern about the jets taking oil away from the mains. If you find that your main oil pressure is lower than it ought to be, you can swap in a high volume oil pump (I don't think the TGP uses it stock), or the REALLY high volume oil pump from a 3.4 TDC. You have an upgrade path multiple points deep.

I'm surprised that you're being told that solid roller lifters need so much maintenance. My dad's said that he used to lash his solid flat tappet 327 daily driver about every 6 months.

With the car on the ground, you can run a very low jack under the rear cradle crossmember, remove the rear cradle bolts and drop the rear of the cradle 4-5 inches, while not disconnecting anything else. This greatly improves access to the forward bank of a V engine. If you need more, you can put the car up on ramps, blocks or stands before dropping the rear of the cradle.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 05-31-2009).]

Will,

I have read piston spray instructions both ways, Corky Bell makes no mention of a check valve in his book when incorporating a piston oiling system, he only recommends a stiffer oil spring or a higher volume pump to compensate for the loss. The BLP system also uses jets that have no check valve to control the oiling.
However if you do a search on oiling systems, you will find a lot of patents for oiling systems with check valves. I spoke with the rep at BLP about this and he said that he could only speak for the drilled main method BLP uses where no valve is used. He suggested that if I used a valve or valves that 20 psi would be a good place to have the valve open.

The Facts For - many aftermarket oiling systems use check valves, many OEM systems use check valves.

The Facts Against - two well respected racing sources BLP and Corky Bell use no oiling system. Jets are sold with and without check valves.

This had me very confused as when or when not to employ a check valve in the system. I made lots of calls trying to get a definitive answer to this question and was left hanging. So I weighed pros and cons of using the check valve.

Pro - The oiling system on earlier blocks is suspect, so you’re sure you’re not starving the engine for oil at idle using a check valve.

Con – The valve is another potential place trash could clog the oiling system.

Even though the TGP uses a Mellings M-95HV high volume cast iron pump and should handle the extra duty, I chose to use the valve because the oiling in the earlier blocks is at times suspect.

I talked with the local machine shop owner this weekend on the solid cam shaft and he also felt that if I was running something close to a stock profile the adjustment of the lifters would be a once or twice a year thing if it was my daily driver and less for a weekend warrior. He has a Nissan shop truck with a twin sparkplug 4 cyl Z engine that he runs a solid camshaft in and has over 30,000 miles on the rebuild and it has yet to need adjustment.
If adjustments can truly be held to a couple times a year I could live with that. I am leaning heavily at this point toward running a solid cam shaft, but the jury is still out while I research this as I have no solid cam experience.

“Education is when you read the fine print. Experience is what you get if you don't.”
Pete Seeger

If you're talking about using pop-off valves for oil jets (I think 6 bolt DSM's do this), it's probably to make sure that the engine has enough oil pressure at idle to not wear itself out. That's not a concern for race cars, so the racing teams who do it can be expected to not care.

this might help with your cam problem http://www.thirdgen.org/tec...cam-conversions.html

any progress

Thanks for the link, I’ll send them an email and see what they have.

With replacing the timing belt and the end of the school year, I have been busy and have had no time for any actual work.

I have had some time for planning and research, and came up with some questions…
Has any one replaced the motor mount / shock on the firewall side of the engine with a solid mount and were there any negative side affects?????

Thanks for looking

I have all poly mounts, boost tends to break the firewall side trans mount. The biggest thing is to use a poly dogbone, a bad dogbone will shred the other mounts fast.
I did a bolt through mount, as seen in my swap thread, untill I won some poly mounts.

------------------
"DRIVE IT LIKE A FIERO"
'84 Fiero, engine to be determined
'87Blue GT 3.4L Swap Completed!!!!!!!! Boosted!!!!!!!
^^^^ Now in the Construction Zone^^^^
Las Vegas Fiero Club
Fiero Road Club Of Northern Nevada

With little garage time for my project the past couple of weeks I have been looking into some piston oiling systems and related information. I found several different references to spray on the hot side of the piston and this got me thinking.

Hot side of the piston????????

Is this some kind of hoax??? Is there any merit to spraying one side or the other??? Or are the gains so minimal I shouldn’t worry about it… I was unaware that there was a hot side to the piston and am currently investigating this phenomenon to confirm or deny its existence and effect.

Does any one have any information or experience on this subject???

Is the hot side of the piston the exhaust side or is it the intake side? At first it seems with the cool intake charge entering, the majority of water jacket cooling and the most block material with oil flowing through it would make the intake side the cool side of the piston, and the hot side of the piston would be the side has no oil galleys, very little water jacket contact and vents the hot exhaust gasses among other reasons.
We are however talking about the piston and not the block… The hot side could be the intake side, as the intake charge is compressed heat rises the intake side of the piston receives the majority of the spark from the plug and is the epicenter of the intake charge when it is ignited. Temperature will be hottest at the epicenter and fall as it radiates.

I feel quite comfortable with arguing either side….

The BLP method sprays the intake side of the piston and automobile manufactures use spray nozzles on either side of the piston depending on the engine.

I’ll let you guys know what I find.

I would imagine the hottest point of the piston is where the combustion propagates from, but the point where minimal cooling and oiling takes place, as well as limited intake charge like the exhaust side, would retain heat longer.

The hottest side is the top.

Which side of a dog has the most fur?
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
... The *out*side.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 06-16-2009).]

Here is an excerpt from some of the material I have been reading along with a link if you guys want to see the whole article. The question is, is there a hot side on the 60D piston and if so which side is the hot side on 60D type engines????????

United States Patent 5533472

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5533472.html
Oil jet nozzles have long been used to cool the under side of a piston in a reciprocating piston engine. These nozzles are often mounted into a bore that leads to an oil gallery. The nozzle also incorporates a check valve to prevent siphoning off of needed oil pressure during low oil pressure conditions.
However, several problems are evident with known oil jet piston cooling systems. Firstly, threaded nozzles tend to eventually twist about in its bore to misalign the nozzle from the intended area at the underside of the piston.
Secondly, the jet nozzle effectively sprays only one-half of the piston underside. The piston rod blocks the spray path to the other side of the piston from where the nozzle is located. It is now common to have asymmetrical engine combustion and consequently the piston heats unevenly with one side ending up hotter than another side. This asymmetry can be caused by chambers that are asymmetrically contoured and precombustion chambers that may have entrances leading into the main combustion chamber at side locations.
The oil spray thus is desirably directed toward the hotter side. No problems exist when the oil gallery is also positioned on the hot side because the jet nozzle may be merely tapped into the oil gallery and pointed directly upwardly to the hot side with no obstruction there between. However, in engines designed with the hotter side on an opposite side relative to the oil gallery, problems arise as to how to provide a nozzle that can both have access to the oil supply while simultaneously directing oil spray without intervening obstructions to the hot side of the piston. The previous solution to this problem has been to drill or cast a second oil gallery at the hot side of the engine block at relatively great expense. Other solutions illustrate convoluted tubing that extends from the oil gallery.
What is needed is an expeditiously constructed cooling oil jet nozzle that remains aligned to spray oil at the intended piston area. What is further needed is an oil jet piston cooling system that is expeditiously fashioned to cool the hot side of a piston with an oil jet nozzle when the oil galley is on the other side from the hot side.