is it possible to swap a 3.8 supercharger setup to a non s/c motor saf bley i have a 39k mile mint buick lesabre custom my gmom bought new and left to me when she died. there isnt much they make for this car but its good cause im broke but is it possible to take the whole supercharger set up to an n/a 3800 that runs fine but the main thing is can i do it without pulling the motor because if i have to do that id just put the s/c motor in. i know know the buick is a big car and it is fairly quick as it is but it would be nice to have something unique and have a little more pep to it. im hoping to pull 300fwhp+ in this car. is this possible?

quote Originally posted by 86fakegt: is it possible to swap a 3.8 supercharger setup to a non s/c motor saf bley i have a 39k mile mint buick lesabre custom my gmom bought new and left to me when she died. there isnt much they make for this car but its good cause im broke but is it possible to take the whole supercharger set up to an n/a 3800 that runs fine but the main thing is can i do it without pulling the motor because if i have to do that id just put the s/c motor in. i know know the buick is a big car and it is fairly quick as it is but it would be nice to have something unique and have a little more pep to it. im hoping to pull 300fwhp+ in this car. is this possible?

Yes--Top swap it and call it a day

Keep in mind that the NA rods,pistons and wrist pins are more durable in the SC block than the NA block to tolerate the extra stress that the supercharger puts on the engine but it will work, just not as long.

Also, if you need to buy the top end of a SC engine, it can be a bit expensive compared to just buying the whole engine. Looking on www.carpart.com , I have seen the supercharger selling for almost the same as a whole SC engine.

Just an opinion,

Steve

thanks guy please keep the opinions and everything coming. the only reason i wouldnt do the whole swap in the future is because its my daily and even when i do get another fiero hopfully this summer untill i get the new wheelchair that actually folds enough to fit in the trunk i need to haave a car that fits the chair to able to ship out the packages of the company im starting which is buying used hobby grade r/c cars and trucks cheap(sup 75$ range) and restoring them and then reselling them and keeping them right around 200 bucks since the economy is bad and people still wanna have a hobby.

I buy 3800 parts everyweek just to add to my ever-growing surplus.
if you need the top swap done let me know, I'll give you a good deal.
typically for the parts needed to do the swap, if they all have between 85k-110k I'd sell it all for around $385 shipping would be about $40-$80 depending on where you live.

- Heads (complete with valves, rockers, pushrods, seats, springs, retainers, bolts, etc)
- LIM (Lower Intake Manifold_
- M90 Supercharger with 3.8 stock pulley
- 3800SC series 2 PCM (Stock Tune)

(I don't have any fuels rails as of now, but I can keep my eyes open if you'd like)

only down side is if the car has a series 1 3800, then you'll need to do modifying to vacume lines, and electronics
because I only deal with series 2 cars when it comes to the Supercharged set-up.

[This message has been edited by gtxbullet (edited 05-09-2009).]

the S2 n/a blocks are still VERY strong, and commonly make more horsepower than the "stronger" SC blocks.

my main concern is the higher compression on this motor, how is that going to affect it? the car is MINT never beatin on it was owned by my grandparents since new and i havent even had the chance to drive it yet. id love to be able to bolt on an itake mani,blower,and computer and call it a day and have a unique car with a little extra power ya kno?

quote Originally posted by JumpStart: Keep in mind that the NA rods,pistons and wrist pins are more durable in the SC block than the NA block to tolerate the extra stress that the supercharger puts on the engine but it will work, just not as long. Also, if you need to buy the top end of a SC engine, it can be a bit expensive compared to just buying the whole engine. Looking on www.carpart.com , I have seen the supercharger selling for almost the same as a whole SC engine. Just an opinion, Steve

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: the S2 n/a blocks are still VERY strong, and commonly make more horsepower than the "stronger" SC blocks.

Evidently both of u need to do some more research into 3.8s From everything i have read and that is a considerable amount over the last few months i have not found one thing that says that any of the blocks Series I II or III where different between the SC and n/a models. In fact almost everyone agrees that block crank and rods are all the same and that the differences where in the pistons and heads. and obviously the lower intake manifold. heres a link you all should read.

http://www.enginebuildermag...8l_buick_engine.aspx

yes it is very possible, but easier said than done. this motor will make more power because of the compression ratio is high than that of a s/c engine. you will need to do some computer tuning though. im not 100% but i dont think they have the same fuel injectors and i know that the fuel rails are not the same. it is going to be a little tricky to do this. the vacuum system are slightly differant and have a differant hormonic balancer to run the s/c belt. the belt routing will be a task also. the lower intake is going to be a problem too. this will be a bigger swap than you might think. good luck and if you do go ahead and do this post some picks id like to know how it goes.

its prob going to be mid to end of the summer. im working on an ebay store and website called speed r/c that will sell budget r/c cars,custom builds for people and new kit builds for people since im very good with the hobby and recently the hobby shop where i had a part time job closed due to the economy and i have done the buy cheap r/cs,restore and resell on and off but since there isnt many jobs in my area im going to give it a fulltime shot and see what i can do and that will determine when this will be done. i have a few questions now im curious why do the heads have to be changed? is it a diffrent port design or just a matter of the compression. also am i able to run the higher compression with the stock boost or even possible to run another psi or 2 and i would assume it would make more power with the upped compression right? how much of a gain would i see from a cam,porting of the heads, and lower intake mani at the time of the blower install enough to make it worth doing? the main thing i want is a quick(not fast since this car is heavy) and reliable daily driver thats unique. its not a car thats commonly modded and not something i would pick but it was left to me and at this time its the best pick since it has plenty of room for the wheelchair and i can only have one car at the house so untill i get done school which i start in september(one year program) and my social security income(not starting till dec) i cant afford to store a car anywhere. but as i think of more questions ill post. realistcly how much power will an n/a motor with the blower setup and other mods hold in a daily driver situation before i need aftermarket bottom end.

quote Originally posted by Fallman: Evidently both of u need to do some more research into 3.8s From everything i have read and that is a considerable amount over the last few months i have not found one thing that says that any of the blocks Series I II or III where different between the SC and n/a models. In fact almost everyone agrees that block crank and rods are all the same and that the differences where in the pistons and heads. and obviously the lower intake manifold. heres a link you all should read. http://www.enginebuildermag...8l_buick_engine.aspx

•1995-’03 VIN K (NATURALLY-ASPIRATED)
The rods in the Series II motors were quite a bit shorter because the deck was quite a bit lower. They measure 4.130˝ bore-to-bore compared to 4.750˝ for the earlier rods and they weigh about 630 grams. They’re all bushed and they have a 669 casting number.

•1996-’03 VIN 1 (SUPERCHARGED)
The supercharged Series II engine that came out in ’96 had a shorter rod that was considerably stronger and heavier. Our sample rod weighed 692 grams. It has a bushing and it measures 4.0˝ from bore-to-bore. We’ve seen them with either a “46” or an “868” casting number on them.

Yes, you are right, I see no mention of stronger and heaver parts in a SC engine.

Been running gobs of s/c'd power on my non-s/c block for years (you can come up and visit the shop someday, if you want). With proper setup, it's a great option. Since you'll probably do it without an intercooler, I'd suggest a mild cam to help move the extra air some. I've built multiple "top-swapped" 3800 S2's like this for W-body's that just use a stock s/c pulley or one step down, and the owners love the power without rushing to go further.

- Dave

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'98 Daytona GTP - MP112 & ZZP I/C (warming up before a RWD 3800SC build)
back in '06 - 333.5whpSAE - 12.73 @ 111mph (street tires) GenV, XP, 9.4:1, stock heads, non-I/C
Admin of CNY3800
http://geocities.com/dezldave961/

from http://dtcc.cz28.com/gminfo.htm

Special notes considering the 3800 Series II N/A and SC engines:
The series II 3800 is a redesigned version of the 3800 (Series 1) V6.
The Series II and III blocks have a shorter deck height, symmetrical design cylinder heads & cross-bolted main bearing caps among most of the major differences they have with their predecessor.

The Supercharged version of the Series II and III engines share the same crankshaft and heads as the naturally aspirated versions but the heads on the SC versions have bosses machined for injectors, and the crank is balanced differently because the SC versions have beefier connecting rods and pistons.

The SC pistons are also of a special casting and have a thermal coating on their tops designed to reflect heat back into the combustion process. The pistons, connecting rods, and piston pins used in the naturally aspirated versions of this engine are NOT designed for use with boost and are significantly weaker than their supercharged counterparts.

Other differences between the N/A and SC engines are the amount of counter-balance of the harmonic balancer, flexplate/flywheel, and balance shaft. All 3800 Series II and III engines are considered to be "externally balanced".

thanks for all the help guys but im still a little confused, is it a must to swap the heads if so how come? where are the injectors on the non s/c. i just got the car and am finishing up the hand controls this weekend weather permitting so that was the main thing i have to do before i even think about going further. my biz is two weeks old and so far so good as long as it keeps going the same way this will be done at the mid to end of summer. now do i have to yank the motor to put the supercharger set up on or can i swap it all out in the car since the engine bay on the buicks are huge. im hoping to take it to a shop with someone who knows these motors and cars in general im still learning so when the time comes im looking for someone semi local nj,pa,ny and start on a saturday stay at a hotel sat night then knock the rest out sun and drive it home sun night) id like to use this engine since i know its mint never been beatin on and the miles are way down. id like to do these mods all at once(since its gonna be torn apart) supercharger,cam,headers and possibly true duals but that might get done by my local shop. but in terms of headers what are the choices will any of the fiero stuff fit it or even the s/c buick gs's? with the s/c cam and headers what power level should i be looking for with this on the non s/c motor with the higher compression

quote Originally posted by 86fakegt: thanks for all the help guys but im still a little confused, is it a must to swap the heads if so how come? where are the injectors on the non s/c. i just got the car and am finishing up the hand controls this weekend weather permitting so that was the main thing i have to do before i even think about going further. my biz is two weeks old and so far so good as long as it keeps going the same way this will be done at the mid to end of summer. now do i have to yank the motor to put the supercharger set up on or can i swap it all out in the car since the engine bay on the buicks are huge. im hoping to take it to a shop with someone who knows these motors and cars in general im still learning so when the time comes im looking for someone semi local nj,pa,ny and start on a saturday stay at a hotel sat night then knock the rest out sun and drive it home sun night) id like to use this engine since i know its mint never been beatin on and the miles are way down. id like to do these mods all at once(since its gonna be torn apart) supercharger,cam,headers and possibly true duals but that might get done by my local shop. but in terms of headers what are the choices will any of the fiero stuff fit it or even the s/c buick gs's? with the s/c cam and headers what power level should i be looking for with this on the non s/c motor with the higher compression

Yes the heads have to be swapped as the injectors for the L-67 are in the heads and not the intake.

blah just dump the sc and make it a turbo hehe, You wont have to change to the l 67 heads or intake.


Just a thought

quote Originally posted by 86fieroEarl: blah just dump the sc and make it a turbo hehe, You wont have to change to the l 67 heads or intake. Just a thought

That was the other option I was thinking but didnt mention it.

Steve

quote Originally posted by 86fieroEarl: blah just dump the sc and make it a turbo hehe, You wont have to change to the l 67 heads or intake. Just a thought

for sure!!! turbo in this situation would be easier.

we have to remember he is on a bugdet! i agree with Fallman , JumpStart and 30+MPG; but everyone needs to be asking wat year engine he has. maybe i didnt read it right but he hasnt said anything about the series. that is the first thing we nee to know. N/A engines do have more compression because they do not see boost. thats the whole reason why the GTP had lower compression, and to be able to use pump gas efficaintly. aslo keep in mind he said "but the main thing is can i do it without pulling the motor because if i have to do that id just put the s/c motor in."

[This message has been edited by Fiero-117A (edited 05-12-2009).]

i thought it was a series two but after doing a little digging and rollin out to the car it is a series one 3800 but it does have low milage so im not worryed about it not being able to handle forced induction and would really like to keep this foundation. how much does this change things? i thought there was a series one s/c engine in the bonniville ssei's and others. what about finding the grand prix turbo parts the manifold and supporting things and source the tubo myself since where im at there is mostly turbo imports,srt-4,a buddy as a turbo merkur which runs 12.00 and is always swapping turbos,eclipses etc. im not looking for a huge output on this just something reliable i would love to lay down 350fwhp but is that a stretch on this motor? for a turbo setup what am i looking to spend on a used mani etc i can get the piping cheap,the turbo cheap,same with the intercooler. whats the best way to go but also the cheapest route for right now? im hoping to have this completed by the end of summer

Again, from http://dtcc.cz28.com/gminfo.htm (Just read the info on Darth's website)

Special notes considering the differences between the Series 1 L & C 3800 engines: The vin L 3800's cylinder heads were the first to feature an integral PCV ventilation system that was found in all subsequent 3800 and 3800 Series II engines. This means that the earlier vin C 3800 heads will not work on a vin L 3800 engine. Also, there are differences between the Supercharged (vin 1) and TPI (vin L) versions of the 3800 besides the intake and assy belt drive system. The SC engine uses stronger connecting rods and pistons which also makes the balance different concerning the crankshaft/rotating assy; compared to the Vin L engines.

k kinda confused the car is a 93 series 1(thought it was a 94 i had to look at the title) now what problems will i run into with the swap with the series one instead of 2.? also say i do want to just take the plunge and just swap the motor am i able to just pull it out and drop everything back into such as the new ecu etc how far off is the wiring? are all mounts the same?

Series 1,2 or 3 are all about the same as far as swapping into a Fiero. The wiring may be a little different for a series 1 but you still need to make a wiring harness, make or buy an engine mount and get an ECM programed for it.

Another note is at 300+ rwhp, any transmission auto or manual that came in a Fiero will not be in there too long. It will end up on the ground in itsy bitsy pieces (well,good possibility. They have been known to hold for awhile). I would suggest an auto that comes with a 3800 ( cant remember the ID for it off hand) or if a manual, go with a FWD 5 spd from a early to mid Chevy or the newer 6 spds.

Steve

Doesnt really matter what Series it is. as long as u swap parts from same series/year.

BTW heads ARE NOT the SAME on the S/C and N/A cars. The domes are completely different to begin with along with other differences mostly external.

quote Originally posted by Fallman: Doesnt really matter what Series it is. as long as u swap parts from same series/year. BTW heads ARE NOT the SAME on the S/C and N/A cars. The domes are completely different to begin with along with other differences mostly external.

I am fairly sure that they are identical aside from injector bung locations.

quote Originally posted by Fallman: Doesnt really matter what Series it is. as long as u swap parts from same series/year. BTW heads ARE NOT the SAME on the S/C and N/A cars. The domes are completely different to begin with along with other differences mostly external.

kinda confused here. i dont know all that much about series1 heads but all series2 heads are the same casting, then they machine a bung for the injector for the s/c engine. the reason the n/a series2 have high compression is because the rods and wrist pin locations are differant. he should be able to swap all the series2 heads, s2 lower, s2 upper intake, and s2 s/c. to make it work. but like i said im no pro on the series1 engine.

quote Originally posted by Fiero-117A: kinda confused here. i dont know all that much about series1 heads but all series2 heads are the same casting, then they machine a bung for the injector for the s/c engine. the reason the n/a series2 have high compression is because the rods and wrist pin locations are differant. he should be able to swap all the series2 heads, s2 lower, s2 upper intake, and s2 s/c. to make it work. but like i said im no pro on the series1 engine.

Series 1 3800 heads ARE DIFFERENT than Series 2 3800 heads. Valve arrangement being one of the biggest differences. You cannot directly use Series 2 heads on a Series 1 engine and vice-versa.

Series 1 3800 SC heads are identical to Series 1 3800 vin L (n/a) heads as far as I have been able to determine. The injectors in both engines install into the intake manifold UNLIKE the 3800 Series 2 SC engine.

Series 2 3800 N/A and SC cylinder heads are the SAME CASTING. The only difference is there are injector bosses machined in the SC versions of these heads so they can accept the injectors. Compression ratio differences between the 3800 Series 2 SC and N/A engines are a factor of piston dish size (IE: the N/A pistons have less of a dish vs. SC pistons).

Series 2 3800 N/A and SC bare engine blocks ARE IDENTICAL. There is no strength difference between the two; at least none that anyone has been able to show. The difference in strength is in the pistons, piston pins, and connecting rods. As far as I can tell the crankshafts between the two versions of this engine are of the same casting as well; with the only difference being in the amount of counterweight balance to account for the the difference in weight of the pistons, pins, and connecting rods. SC versions of these parts are heavier duty (and also heavier in weight). These engines are also externally balanced, and the amount of counter-balance built into the flexplate/flywheel and balancer pulley ARE DIFFERENT between SC and N/A versions.

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5+ years on this same swap -- NO engine or transmission failures...

Custom GM OBD1 & OBD2 Tuning | Engine Conversions & more | www.gmtuners.com

Alright 86fakegt, Darth fiero just said it. your best bet is to swap the whole L67 (series2 s/c) into your car. if your L67 is a '98 or newer you will need to put the electrics off of the series1 on to the series2. '98 and newer are digitally controlled and no longer use any analog equipment (knock sensors, ect...) their will be alot of differances in this aspect. possibly alot of deleted parts. you might need to do some more homework on the whole wiring set up, sounds like Darth Fiero knows wats. you will need some help tuning this computer, it is OBD1. i know this seems like alot and i dont know if you have two cars. this swap will not happen in a weekend. if you have a good running car you might want to wait till you get a fiero to put that L67 in (i reccomend '88 formula and coupe). this will give you time to save some money for a real go gitter fiero, instead of wasting time and money now. just a suggestion though, i know wat its like to want more power. i think 99.9 percent of the people on this forum have the "bug" for being speed junkies.

[This message has been edited by Fiero-117A (edited 05-13-2009).]

Retraction

I thought i had read somewhere that the domes where differnt on the N/A heads vs the S/C heads. I went back and looked again and cannot find that. so evidently they are the same other then the machining for the injectors.

Sorry my bad.

quote Originally posted by Fiero-117A: i think 99.9 percent of the people on this forum have the "bug" for being speed junkies.

I think your 99.9 % correct on that. I do believe that if someone was after durability more than speed, using a SC bottom end and a NA top end would be a really good choice.

Steve

thanks for all the info and although im just dreaming for now as im trying to get my ebay biz off the ground(restoreing r/c cars and selling for 200$ and under which is a good idea with the economy and also doing custom builds) but there is going to come a time where i will be s/c the lesabre and the fact that from what im reading is the series 1 n/a 3800 doesnt need the heads swapped(correct me if im wrong) it makes it more of a reality. when time and space allows(hopefully the biz takes off) i will be building an 87 gt and it will be getting a tunnel rammed or cross rammed small block with 2 4 barrels and a gear drive since its a unique path and would be bad ass but i want to have the buick for a long time to come since it was my grand parents who both have passed and it has all the room i need and while it does move good as is for everyday power but i would love to surprise a few people and do something diffrent. i am going to start a goverment school(job corps) in sept for my ged and to get certified in auto body or a drug counsler but i will walk out with 3k instead of oweing money and i am pretty sure thats when i will become a fiero owner again for the 3rd time and i plan to start with a very nice black and silver car. but if anyone has anymore to add to this and diffrent paths to go with this 3.8 on a budget id love to hear it

thanks alex