Does swapping out the 4"x10" speakers in the dash up front for a pair of 4" round speakers really make that big of a difference in sound quality? What are the trade offs of using a smaller speaker that is round as opposed to a larger 4"x10" speaker.

Also, has anyone installed a Sub woofer plate for the center console from Top Line Group Automotive? Are they easy to install and how is the build quality of them?
[http://www.tlg-auto.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage-ask.tpl&product_id=19&category_id=1&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=11]

Lastly, I've never hooked up a sub woofer before, the radio I installed has a port on the back labeled "sub woofer". Do I still need and amp for it? If so how many watts should the amp be and what do you need to install one?

I'm sure most of these questions are simple for most of you to answer and I would appreciate the help. Thanks!

well what I actually plan on is switching out the 4x10's for a pair of 5 1/4 in components for the better sound quality. and I am adding a sub behind the passenger seat with a custom enclosure so I can also put a pair of 4x6's behind each headrest firing up.

I have resisted the comments on the shape of speakers. a good set of 4x10's will sound as good as any component speaker.
It all comes down to personal preference.
a piano has no round sound producing device. nor does a guitar, cello, violin, etc.
Most of the clarity you hear is from mid to upper ranges, and all the drivers that cover that are usually round, even in a 4x10, as it is the coxial element.
a decent set of 4x10's, a decent set of 4x6's in the pillars and a properly tuned bass enclosure will supply enjoyable sound within the limits of the car. you simply do not have the room to have a real audiophile quality in any car. it is always a compromise to the acoustics and size of the room, which is the size of the cab of the car.

Now that I thoroughly pissed of the """""audio car experts"""""""
good 4x10's in the front. pioneer 2 ways are pretty decent there.
good 4x6's in the pillars, again the pioneer 2 ways sound pretty good.
guage the sub woofer amp size to the sub you install, as you will need an amp on that line.
your link shows an 8" woofer in the console, I would say no more than a 250watt amp, run at about 1/2 gain to minimize distortion should be sufficient. based on the 120 w nominal rating of the shown speaker.
I have found due to the useless ratings of car amps, take their rms rating and cut it in half for a reliable long life with minimal distortion.
(just basing that on amps I have taken from car to car for 20 years now vs modern amps rated 4x the power that I have replaced multiple times in other people's cars.)

A lot depends how and what kind of music you listen to. I think most people wouldn't hear anything wrong running 4"x10"s at mediocre power volumes and will be totally fine with that.

But you will hear a difference once you start pushing some real power through them. Because the cone of round speakers is more rigid, will not be as likely to distort at high levels when compared to speakers with oval shaped cones. The further the oval is from being round, the more flex and distortion you will get. A 4"x10" is the most extreme oval you can get compared to a say a 5"x7".

Years ago when I didn't know any better, I started out with 4"x10" Pioneers and the distortion at high power levels (Denon amp 50 watts/channel) was noticeable. The same power running through round MB Quart components gave the car award winning sound quality.

More recently, in my Indy I first installed Eclipse 4"x10" and ran them off deck power because I wanted to keep things simple. Hated them. Replaced them with Infinity components - still running deck power - and was MUCH happier with the quality of the sound. People hearing it CANNOT believe I'm only running deck power and 100 watts through a 5.25" subwoofer.

Indy stereo https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum3/HTML/000031.html

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World of Wheels Winners
My 3.4L S/C 87 GT
& My SD4 Indy

[This message has been edited by fierosound (edited 06-08-2009).]

quote Originally posted by Katman81: well what I actually plan on is switching out the 4x10's for a pair of 5 1/4 in components for the better sound quality. and I am adding a sub behind the passenger seat with a custom enclosure so I can also put a pair of 4x6's behind each headrest firing up.

Are you going to make, or buy a box for the 4"x6" speakers? I have the same problem. My speakers are so big, I would need to cut the sheet metal to make them fit, first I want to know what they sound like though, before I go through the hassle of cutting up the car.

the basic idea behind speakers is round always gives better quality sound. The reason being is because oval speakers don't flex as well as round. Any oval speaker has an uneven bass reflex that flexes more in the center and less at the ends. If you notice in speaker competitions, they don't use any oval speakers. Now, that's assuming you are going for a decent sound system, aftermarket deck and maybe an amp. If you're just looking at normal every day music without any mods to anything but the speakers themselves, you'd be fine with oval speakers. Then, the other thing to consider is price, cheap speakers are just that. Even oval speakers can sound better the more you spend on them. I went with some cheapy 4x10's, paid $20 for the pair just to get me by until I redo the front with a pair of 5 1/4's with tweaters... and they truly do sound like $20 speakers. Even with the bass reflex completely gone, my stock speakers sounded better... until I turned it too high and they began to scratch :P

*edit*

oops, sorry fierosound, I didn't see you posted most of this already :P

[This message has been edited by cujoe_da_man (edited 06-08-2009).]

I am in agreeance with the round vs. oval type speakers. But, I am using Alpine Type R's in 5"x7" size in my dash. I came up through the bottom of the dash to mount them. They fit great, and with my Rockford Fosgate amp pushing power, they sound awesome. I placed 3" grey foam underneath them to isolate the sound from the rest of the dash. I am using Infinity plate speakers in the rear. I then have a Memphis Audio shallow mount sub behind the passenger seat. My music and bass are clear throught the full range of the system. There is no distortion. And with the small space of the Fiero, it may be a bit much. but, then again, I am nearing 40.

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quote Originally posted by fierosound: A lot depends how and what kind of music you listen to. I think most people wouldn't hear anything wrong running 4"x10"s at mediocre power volumes and will be totally fine with that. But you will hear a difference once you start pushing some real power through them. Because the cone of round speakers is more rigid, will not be as likely to distort at high levels when compared to speakers with oval shaped cones. The further the oval is from being round, the more flex and distortion you will get. A 4"x10" is the most extreme oval you can get compared to a say a 5"x7".

What he said.

The only thing I will add is that between a 4" and a 4"x10" the 4"x10" will probably produce more bass from increased cone mass and surface area. That is assuming you don't push them into distorting. As in running 10 watts to each speaker side by side type comparison. I personally went with a coaxial 5-1/4" in my dash, I'm thinking inspired by Fierosound. At least if I remember right it was his thread that linked to a template to make a adapter plate to mount a 5-1/4" component set in the dash opening.

quote Originally posted by tjm4fun: your link shows an 8" woofer in the console, I would say no more than a 250watt amp, run at about 1/2 gain to minimize distortion should be sufficient. based on the 120 w nominal rating of the shown speaker. I have found due to the useless ratings of car amps, take their rms rating and cut it in half for a reliable long life with minimal distortion. (just basing that on amps I have taken from car to car for 20 years now vs modern amps rated 4x the power that I have replaced multiple times in other people's cars.)

I have to agree with that also. I remember back in the early 90's having a Soundstream D60 and a Orion 280GX amplifier in my truck. I pushed 30 watts to each door and 80 watts into each of my woofers. I had a total of 220 watts RMS and I could easily drive through the mall parking lot and set off car alarms... Sit out in front of 7-11 and make the aluminum panels in the awning ceiling vibrate... etc. You figure a woofer is typically rated at 90ish decibels with 1 watt at 1 meter. You don't need alot of power to sound good. I don't think I've ever ran more then 400 watts in my vehicles and suprised many people when they find out that I'm not running thousands of watts.
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[This message has been edited by Khw (edited 06-09-2009).]

Fierosound:

In that thread you had about your sound system, when you talk about the "2 woofers" that came with the Infinity sound system, are those speakers? Or are they just sub woofers? I guess what I'm asking is what do they sound like?

A 2-way are usually consist of a tweeter (highs) and woofer (mid-range/some bass). A 3-way set will have a tweeter (highs), woofer (mid-range) and mid-bass woofer. Both will come with the appropriate cross-over to split the signal.

It's the crossover that help make component sets sound better than a full range (stock) speaker. http://www.ehow.com/facts_4...eaker-crossover.html

For most people, either system will sound just fine with the bass they can provide. But for DEEP BASS you need a sub-woofer which is a woofer designed for the very low end of the sound spectrum.

Tips http://www.crutchfield.com/...er/car/speakers.html

[This message has been edited by fierosound (edited 06-12-2009).]

quote Originally posted by Austrian Import: Are you going to make, or buy a box for the 4"x6" speakers? I have the same problem. My speakers are so big, I would need to cut the sheet metal to make them fit, first I want to know what they sound like though, before I go through the hassle of cutting up the car.

I am going to make a box. On the passenger side I will have the sub below and at the top of the sub box will be another small enclosure for the 4x6. on the drivers side i will have the amp semi enclosed and the same thing up top for that 4x6.

It's a question of quantity vs quality. For better quality, get the 4" round speakers with 1" dome tweeters and *real* crossovers. For more noise, go with the 4x10" coaxials.

While the 4x10" has a bigger cone that can produce more sound, the oval cone shape causes funky distortion effects at high volume. And the cheapo tweeters built into coaxial speakers are nothing to brag about. And their idea of a crossover is usually a single capacitor in-line with the tweeter.

I'm also a firm believer in separate subwoofers. It's not a good idea to try to push bass through your dash speakers. While your head unit has a subwoofer output, you'll still need an amplifier to power the subwoofer. The required power will depend on the power handling of the woofer, and how loud you want it to be. Also, powered subwoofer systems are pretty common nowadays.

oval speakers loose sound quality at higher volumes because of the distance from the coil to the "hinged" edge.
on the narrow side, the slope is steep, and the coil can easily push
on the wide side, the slope is slight, and creates a long slope, which is easily distorted
this creates the need for extra material in the speaker cone, which in turn creates extra mass to move.

what essentially happens, is you get up/down bend on the long slope, and in/out bend on the short slope - and - the higher the volume - the more it happens

and, while it is true that some instruments do no create sound "roundly" - ALL microphones pick up sound "roundly" - with a round diaphram. and that vibrating diaphram is what speakers are re-creating.

and - it is absolutely possible to create a FINE oval speaker. you absolutely can get more out of a 4x10 than a 4 round. as long as the variables are compensated for - they work just fine. extra stiffness & ribbing to keep shape, and its all great. but, a cheap corrugated paper cone will not do the job.

The endless debate of oval versus round. At Pioneer school many years ago, the instructor went off on a tangent about doppler and how it affects oval speakers. Basically for the purists, the sound wave created by an oval speaker at some point is what amounts to, out of phase since the wave reflects different lengths of the driver.
Having said that, in many cases, you don't really have a choice and are not seeking some kind of audiophile sound.

My dash as JL 5 1/4 seperates and with a clean 40 RMS watts per channel, they blow away the Pioneer 4103 4x10 speakers in clarity, imaging and the crispness in the higher frequencies. My 4x6 speakers are some Alpines and are on the edge of getting removed all together.

Now what has gotten interesting are my attempts to upgrade my aftermarket subwoofer. I had a nice Infinity 8" in a generic wedge box that barely fits behind the passenger seat. That sounds pretty nice, at least that is what I thought. It is powered by a clean 200 watt RMS. Other than the fact that my seat is fully forward on the passenger side, that has been a decent combination all winter.

Well about a month ago I purchased last year's Pioneer TS-SW301 flat piston 12" sub and on my second time I got a .65 cu sealed box in there 19x17x5.55 Not as thin as I would like, but the difference is night and day. My first tweaking of the amp got my bass in a place where I thought it would be fine, but this morning, the first cruise, I found myself turning the base control on the amp all they way down and it is still booming my brains out. So my next box is going to build it even thinner, inside depth from
4.25 inches to 3.75, which should give the 3/3/8 inch speaker sufficent clearance. Then I will make the back out of thicker masonite, covered inside with dynamat to save an additional 1/2. The idea is to make the box even thinner, but bigger since I have up to 26x19 for that side. The sides and front will remain MDF with hopes that the dynamat/masonite and maybe fiberglass back combined with the read firewall will provide decent performance.

As it is the current box is overpowering and will get turned down the amp in a few...

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FieroDriver--Multimedia by J "Wudman" Wood--Explore Southern Illinois

Wudman, could you post some pics?

Also, have you considered the underdash 8" speaker in the factory location? Since you still have the speaker, i assume, it might be a cool experiment.

Balancing subs to the rest of the Audio seems to be a difficult challenge I'm not looking forward to myself. I listen to lots of music where an overpowering bass is detrimental to the enjoyment, and I prefer crisp highs. (at least I think I'm using the correct term.)

I have to agree with austian import you should try to go with the underdash 8" subwoofer. I just did one and it was the first time I ever hooked up an amp sub or speakers in a car. Also the first time I used fiberglass (used to make the box). And i thought you asked about hooking an amp up? It is pretty simple the amp you buy should come with a wiring diagram. I have a Poiner 8" under the dash on a 300 watt amp. then I have 4x10 in the dash and I have poiner ?x? in the back and I think it all sound pretty good.

Here is some of the most popular underdash subs:

Tang Brand: (uses the stock subwoofer enclosure)
https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum3/HTML/000079.html

8" styles: (there are several designs, but it's hard to search for since the ' " ' symbol can't be used as a search term.)
https://www.fiero.nl/forum/A...060811-1-051244.html

https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum4/HTML/044388.html

https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum4/HTML/043410.html

There was at least 1 guy that sells a "turnkey" version of that subwoofer. All you had to do is provide the speaker and you're ready to go.

If anybody can get this link to work, it might show good info. Doesn't work on my PC:
http://www.fierofocus.com/D...tems_files/frame.htm

[This message has been edited by Austrian Import (edited 06-22-2009).]

The round vs. oval has been covered.

In my car I went with a smaller system that sounds great. I used 4" rounds with 1" seperate tweeters in all four locations (2 in the dash and 2 in the sailpanels) then installed an 8" subwoofer in the passenger footwell. It all runs thru 500W of power between 2 amplifiers and a surround sound processor. While it won't rattle the neighbors windows or win any SPL contests, It is loud and clear.

You can see pics here:
http://www.polkaudio.com/ca...talls/view.php?id=13

As for this comment:

quote Originally posted by tjm4fun: You simply do not have the room to have a real audiophile quality in any car. it is always a compromise to the acoustics and size of the room, which is the size of the cab of the car.

I would disagree. If you understand the acoustics and size of your vehicles interior you can plan and install a system that can get you real audiophile quality.
While very few set up their vehicles for true real audiophile quality, It can be done. I have done many installs on many different vehicles. Granted 98% were more interested in clear and very loud but I have done a couple of vehicles for audiophile quality as well.

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Happiness isn't around the corner...
Happiness IS the corner.
ZZ4 Powered !!

I guess even a 10" Sub will fit. I knew it..

quote Originally posted by Fiero2m8: The other sub is now mounted under passenger side dashboard: You can see that it is relatively well hidden considering it is a 600W 10" sub: