I already have a engine harness from a gtp but I cannot find anyone to do the connections where i can use it with my fiero. So if anyone knows anyone that is selling a harness that is already converted please let me know. Thanks
It takes so little time to make a harness, especially with how I route the wires
I'd feel like a crook if I charged any more than that
Not to be insulting but your rating bar shows more red than green. This raises some questions. If you will really rewire and return a harness for $75.00 be prepared to do many of them but you will need to proove that you'll deliver. It takes me 12 hours to build a harness; probably a few hours longer than it would take someone who does it all the time. Are you telling all of us that you are that skilled that you can mate the Fiero and GTP harness in an hour or two? Something here doesn't sound quite right.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, 3.4" Pulley, N* TB, LS1 MAF, Flotech Exhaust Autolite 104's Custom CAI 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
Not to be insulting but your rating bar shows more red than green. This raises some questions. If you will really rewire and return a harness for $75.00 be prepared to do many of them but you will need to proove that you'll deliver. It takes me 12 hours to build a harness; probably a few hours longer than it would take someone who does it all the time. Are you telling all of us that you are that skilled that you can mate the Fiero and GTP harness in an hour or two? Something here doesn't sound quite right.
For $75 it's worth a shot to anybody interested as it's not that much to lose. Even a shoddy looking harness would be worth that. However, a harness that would require troubleshooting is a different story (not to say that that's what he produces as I honestly have no idea). You never know, he might even produce an excellent product for that.
[This message has been edited by GraterFang (edited 08-05-2009).]
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12:06 AM
Sir Ken Member
Posts: 74 From: Cocoa, Florida Registered: Jun 2009
I have exchanged a few PMs with Dallas and I am hopefull he is an honest man. Trust is something you can't win back once it is lost but I believe I'll have to judge him by my future dealings with him.
Damn good price and communication though: + for you.
(Hijack over)
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12:54 AM
87antuzzi Member
Posts: 11151 From: Surrounded by corn. Registered: Feb 2009
$75 is about what i charge when I do them for locals. It is really not a complex job, and just because you work smart does not mean that the work is "shoddy". The only harnesses I have had to troubleshoot for people are ones that came from texas... The work required is very simple and for Dallas and I it only takes about 3-4 hours to do one.
I suggest that Dallas requests that any harnesses sent to him has the tape and plastic wrap removed in specific areas. It makes things a bit easier for me and would save about 2 hours of dealing with crap.
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07:38 AM
Dennis LaGrua Member
Posts: 15442 From: Hillsborough, NJ U.S.A. Registered: May 2000
Ok a couple of questions for everyones reference. On your harnesses do you retain the GTP fuse box or do you wire in the fuel pump and A/C relays separately. If you wire in the A/C relay do you follow the GTP method where the PCM energizes the A/C relay and the refrigerent pressure sensor is used for contol or do you do keep it like the Fiero had it wired? What do you do for the oil pressure sender? You need a new connector here. Likewise for the ETS as some GTP harnessses don't use the three wire sensor. Also there is a VSS signal converter that is needed for the auto swap. Without it the PCM runs blind. What about the cruise control. How is this wired?. Point is that some harnesses will need these things and this will add cost. If you are talking about a harness that will just start the engine, power, ground, inj power, fuel pump relay and cooling fan relay connections will do it. However, if you want everything to work properly ( gauges, accesories, cruise, PCM control) all the little things need to be added and addressed. I can't see how these can be done for $75 so some further explanation is needed.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, 3.4" Pulley, N* TB, LS1 MAF, Flotech Exhaust Autolite 104's Custom CAI 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
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08:51 AM
PFF
System Bot
bmwguru Member
Posts: 4692 From: Howell, NJ USA Registered: Sep 2006
I average about 40 hours a harness too. But I do a lot of soldering at the connector ends, I de-pin individual connectors and solder the terminals back onto the (usually) shortened wire. Not as good as crimping, but I have never had an issue. I couldn't spare the effort of doing harness for people. it's pretty rare that I need a longer wire.
Now if I had NEW connector ends, terminals, a crimper, assortments of wire and wire loom... I could make a business out of it.
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10:28 AM
darkhorizon Member
Posts: 12279 From: Flint Michigan Registered: Jan 2006
Ok a couple of questions for everyones reference. On your harnesses do you retain the GTP fuse box or do you wire in the fuel pump and A/C relays separately.
No reason to, the fiero stuff works just fine and you do not have to touch it at all.
If you wire in the A/C relay do you follow the GTP method where the PCM energizes the A/C relay and the refrigerent pressure sensor is used for contol or do you do keep it like the Fiero had it wired?
The PCM triggers the stock fiero relay system
What do you do for the oil pressure sender? You need a new connector here.
No, just steal it all from the fiero, wire in ONE wire to the stock place on the c203
Likewise for the ETS as some GTP harnessses don't use the three wire sensor.
Most all do use the 3 wire, if not it is not hard to wire it for one.
Also there is a VSS signal converter that is needed for the auto swap. Without it the PCM runs blind.
I still have been to lazy to make my converter, I just have no speedo, pcm sees everything it needs. manuals are no different no converter required
What about the cruise control. How is this wired?.
I dont think anything was said about offering cruise in the $75 harness, and most if not all of the cruise install is done external to the pcm harness.
Point is that some harnesses will need these things and this will add cost.
Cost as in a few cents.. I know that Dallas and I have piles of spare connectors, and many connectors are shared between sensors
If you are talking about a harness that will just start the engine, power, ground, inj power, fuel pump relay and cooling fan relay connections will do it. However, if you want everything to work properly ( gauges, accesories, cruise, PCM control) all the little things need to be added and addressed. I can't see how these can be done for $75 so some further explanation is needed.
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10:57 AM
bmwguru Member
Posts: 4692 From: Howell, NJ USA Registered: Sep 2006
I average about 40 hours a harness too. But I do a lot of soldering at the connector ends, I de-pin individual connectors and solder the terminals back onto the (usually) shortened wire. Not as good as crimping, but I have never had an issue. I couldn't spare the effort of doing harness for people. it's pretty rare that I need a longer wire.
Now if I had NEW connector ends, terminals, a crimper, assortments of wire and wire loom... I could make a business out of it.
I have all the terminals and everything needed. I still have no clue how people are able to produce a "mail order' harness. There are a few variables that I take into concideration when Joey and I make the harness. It is much better when it is done on the car. This enables the wiring to be cleaner and without a few extra inches at each connector for variables. I have no interest in making this a full time business, but I have no problem fabricating a harness if the car is at my shop. Dave
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11:33 AM
darkhorizon Member
Posts: 12279 From: Flint Michigan Registered: Jan 2006
I have access to brand new connectors, terminals, pins, etc as well... it just is much more expensive than it is worth to just go and get them used by the bucket load from the junkyards.
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11:36 AM
Dennis LaGrua Member
Posts: 15442 From: Hillsborough, NJ U.S.A. Registered: May 2000
Originally posted by bmwguru: I have all the terminals and everything needed. I still have no clue how people are able to produce a "mail order' harness. There are a few variables that I take into concideration when Joey and I make the harness. It is much better when it is done on the car. This enables the wiring to be cleaner and without a few extra inches at each connector for variables. I have no interest in making this a full time business, but I have no problem fabricating a harness if the car is at my shop. Dave
I am of the opinion that it is certainly possible to make harnesses off the car, once the first one is completed, removed and used to make a jig board setup.. This is the way the car manufacturers make them. Fuel Injection Technolgy and Painless wiring make harnesses the same way. I was involved in a swap where the owner purchased a mail order harness from Fieroflyer. While I had to modify a couple of leads to get around the headers, it fit and worked fine. Perhaps the neatest harness is one made while the engine is in the car but that goes for all wiring. If it takes you 40 hours to make a wiring harness that tells me that you are working "wire by wire". Great way to do it but costly.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, 3.4" Pulley, N* TB, LS1 MAF, Flotech Exhaust Autolite 104's Custom CAI 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
40 hrs is longer than it should take even your first time, no matter how you do it
That is 4 consistent hours a day for ten days
That is one shop guy, using half his work day, for 2 weeks
There is absolutely no way it should take anyone that long, especially if you done anything electrical before
I guess I am just a little too OCD to not get it right the first time. My main business is repairing high end German (and the occasional Italian) cars. To get them right, you must be meticulous. I guess that attitude just carries over to my Fiero work. Dave
------------------ 1987 GT (my toy-see above), 1987 GT 3800s/c, 1986 SE with a VW VR6, certified master technician/shop owner www.njautobahn.com www.hausofguru.com
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08:00 PM
Dennis LaGrua Member
Posts: 15442 From: Hillsborough, NJ U.S.A. Registered: May 2000
OK so we have the 2 hour, 8 hour and 40 hour wiring people represented here. Quite frankly I can get a 3800SC engine wired in about 2 hours too if the only objective is to get the engine started. You can do that with 6-8 wires being connected. However, when you add gauge support, A/C, cruise, trans select, etc etc, and get everything connected routed and NEAT looking that's where the time comes in. In the case of BMWguru, his (her) wiring is meticulous and neat as a pin. Forty hours does seem like a long time to make a custom harness and even at a reasonable shop rate of $40 an hour that comes out to $1600 labor + the GTP and Fiero harness costs. IMO, very few Fiero owners ( including myself) could afford to pay that much but Dave is apparently catering to a wealthy elite audience with deep pockets. Its funny but on one hand he works on BMW's Mercedes and exotic European cars ( and does a god job at it) but on the other hand he chooses to work on cheap Fieros. Perhaps the Fiero is the car of choice for the Ferrari wannabe!!
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, 3.4" Pulley, N* TB, LS1 MAF, Flotech Exhaust Autolite 104's Custom CAI 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
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08:32 PM
bmwguru Member
Posts: 4692 From: Howell, NJ USA Registered: Sep 2006
Dennis, I charge a flat $800 plus parts to fabricate a harness. This includes gauge support, engine, C500, C203, a/c & FP relays. The length of time is really dedicated to the clean install on the engine and testing the wiring circuits to ensure a flawless startup. Dave
True, I was just kidding, as I'm sure you picked up on. Realistically though, heatshrink isn't very abrasion resistant. If those soldier joints are allowed to rub against each other in a tightly wrapped harness the soldier will eventually 'cut' through the heatshrink and allow the wires to touch. A better idea would have been to stagger them for a bit better protection.
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01:27 AM
Dennis LaGrua Member
Posts: 15442 From: Hillsborough, NJ U.S.A. Registered: May 2000
True, I was just kidding, as I'm sure you picked up on. Realistically though, heatshrink isn't very abrasion resistant. If those soldier joints are allowed to rub against each other in a tightly wrapped harness the soldier will eventually 'cut' through the heatshrink and allow the wires to touch. A better idea would have been to stagger them for a bit better protection.
Thats a good point and I must admit that my harness used heat shrink tubing and some solder joints. We kept the rewiring to a minimum with an unusual approach that adds the GTP fuze box/power center. This method uses the GTP fuel pump and A/C relays and I believe its the only 3800 swap harness of its kind. If the wires are heat shrinked tape wrapped and then put in wire loom it will most likely eliminate the possibility of any future shorts. I've got to give him credit as BMWguru is doing his harnesses using uncut wires all the way from commector to PCM connector. Thats really the best ( and neatest) way to do it but it takes loads of time and requires a good stock of many colors of wire and lots of PCM connector pins. I believe Fuel Injection Technology does them this way also and uses all brand new connectors to boot but his price is $700. Fieroflyer charged $500 and I saw one of his harnesses. It looked good , it was made using the traditional solder/ heat shrink method and it worked on a car that is owned by a guy in my club. The only problem with this harness is that its a stick and the VSS is wired directly to the PCM. The Fiero VSS inputs are not compatible wiith the 3800 PCM and reprogramming and/or a signal converter must be used/added to the circuit for proper operation.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, 3.4" Pulley, N* TB, LS1 MAF, Flotech Exhaust Autolite 104's Custom CAI 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
True, I was just kidding, as I'm sure you picked up on. Realistically though, heatshrink isn't very abrasion resistant. If those soldier joints are allowed to rub against each other in a tightly wrapped harness the soldier will eventually 'cut' through the heatshrink and allow the wires to touch. A better idea would have been to stagger them for a bit better protection.
They are staggered you just can't really tell since the wires aren't straight
