Hi, I'm considering getting the True Cold Air Intake tube from Rodney Dickman. I also have the ram-air scoop from TFS. Anybody else have this setup? I'm a little concerned with sucking up water into my K&N when it rains.

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~Stan
http://www.StanHinesleyPickups.com
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Fiero: It's not just a car, It's a HOBBY!

You definately will suck up water. My understanding is that in reality, with a stock motor, the factory intake is just as good as the aftermarket ones. The only difference is that you will get the intake "noise" when you are at idle or accelerating.

I have a DOHC 3.4 with the stock air intake including the water seperator connected to a set of Fiero Warehouse side scoops that stick out in the air stream on both sides. I kept the seperator due to the fact engineers did a hell of a lot of testing in all types of conditions when they designed the car and in fact had scoops similar to what these are but ditched them as they filled up full of dirt, mud and debri after miles and miles of testing in all types of conditions. My car is a garage queen now in inclimate weather but when it is out on the road it gets driven for fun......lots of fun! I notice no issues with lack of performance when I put my foot in it. I also use the stock air filter and not the K & N that I started with.

Let's see.... no lack of performace.....stock setup for the most part and no injestion of water into my new crate motor.... works for me.

quote Originally posted by shinesley: Hi, I'm considering getting the True Cold Air Intake tube from Rodney Dickman. I also have the ram-air scoop from TFS. Anybody else have this setup? I'm a little concerned with sucking up water into my K&N when it rains.

My set-up is a cross between the set-up you're thinking of, versus what Mike Murphy has.

More specifically, my `86 GT, which is a year-round daily driver, has:

• A Fiero Warehouse side scoop which has been made functional, following what Mike Murphy described doing with his in this archived thread on Pennock's Fiero Forum: "pictures of side scoops-please post yours" ( https://www.fiero.nl/forum/A...090219-2-085430.html ).
  
  
• No screen on the Fiero Warehouse scoop. (Mike Murphy has a screen on his.)
  
  
• A K&N air filter (the one that fits in the stock air cleaner canister, which presumably is the same tyoe of filter you have).
  
  
• A Rodney Dickman "True Cold Air Intake" (which you're thinking of getting).

I've never had a problem with that set-up sucking up water into the air filter, and my year-round, daily driver sees plenty of ratty weather.

The only precaution I take with that set-up is turning off the engine when, during the winter, I take my `86 through high-pressure, automatic car washes (gasp!) because it's way too cold here to wash it by hand then.

I'm not sure that precaution is even necessary, but as is the case with some of the practices and beliefs of superstitious people, I turn off the engine then because it makes me feel better.

I have the Fiero store side scoop and a home-made setup identical to RD's on my nearly bone stock '86 coupe with no complaints at all. And like project34 I see all kinds of inclement weather here in central Indiana as I'm sure Mike Murphy can attest to.

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4,500 RPM in 5th gear is bad?

The Duke will NEVER DIE
]

[This message has been edited by Rallaster (edited 09-06-2009).]

I run a 3" articulated metal tube straight to my air intake can and have The Fiero Store (Holly) scoop. I do use a K&N air filter which helps with the water vapor. I have never had a problem with this setup. BTW, I chase storms. I have been through some pretty serious rain and puddles. Also, this car is my daily driver and I have been running this type of setup for about 8 + years.

No problems at all.

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Paul

My IMSA Build: http://www.cardomain.com/ride/789315
HHP Adjustable Sway Bars: https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum4/HTML/036556.html

Everyone likes to call that thingy a water separator. I think it is a muffler. Anyone have any proof it is a water separator? Considering how low the air intake is compared to the air cleaner it would seem very hard for water to get that high up to contact the air cleaner element. I tend to think it is a muffler and has nothing to do with water going up into the air cleaner housing.




There is also no hole at the bottom of this plastic housing to drain any water that would get into this canister. This is another reason I tend to think no (or very little) water gets into this canister.

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Rodney Dickman

Fiero Parts And Acc's Web Page:
www.rodneydickman.com
Rodney Dickman's Fiero accessories
7604 Treeview Drive
Caledonia, WI 53108
Phone/Fax (262) 835-9575

I plan to just run a cylindrical or cone shaped filter in there with maybe a splash guard for my 3800 swap. I'd call that good.

The real question is how anyone could possibly think that they are going to suck any significant amount of water from the side of the car, short of driving through a puddle as deep as the belt line? How many times have you guys powered through 2 feet of water in your Fiero?

How does anyone think that water droplets running down the side of the car, then sucked in the intake tube to possibly be misted through an air filter, are going to do damage to anything?



The only function that box has to muffle the high pitched noise associated with sucking air through a small hole... IAC port and part throttle openings. There is no physical way that a plastic box placed above the intake air path could possible separate water from the incoming air... look at it.

[This message has been edited by carbon (edited 09-06-2009).]

I run Rodney's set up on my car W/O scoops (although I have them and will install soon). I run 80 miles every weekday (weekends more or less depending) year round (yes in the snow} and have never had any problem. I agree with pervious statments that this is a muffler and never intended to have anything to do with water. Any body ever seen any 60's ram air set up's. Even with scoops placed under the bumper no one ever included a "water seperator"

This set up is often poo-poo because it "doesn't add anything". The only way to be able to make that statment would be to dyno the car stock, install the kit and dyno again under the exact same conditions (weather temp etc.) As far as I know no one has done that.

The theory is it doesn't matter as the intake/exhaust is too restrictive. There's a good chance that's true but unless some one has the above dyno info it's still an unproven theory.

Will it help a modified engine? Again as far as I know no one has made the dyno comparison and with out that we can only guess.

I can tell you with out a doubt it's preferable to set ups that place the filter in the engine compartment W/O out a cold ait intake.

All that said what it will do is make your car sound like Darth Vader stuck on inhale. (most noticeable at idle} and for my tastes that alone makes it worth it. (disclaimer-your tastes may vary)

On another thread we need to discuss Rodney's "zero lash end links" Rodney ROCKS!

quote Originally posted by Rodney: Everyone likes to call that thingy a water separator. I think it is a muffler. Anyone have any proof it is a water separator? Considering how low the air intake is compared to the air cleaner it would seem very hard for water to get that high up to contact the air cleaner element. I tend to think it is a muffler and has nothing to do with water going up into the air cleaner housing. There is also no hole at the bottom of this plastic housing to drain any water that would get into this canister. This is another reason I tend to think no (or very little) water gets into this canister.

Thanks Rodney, I was hoping you would chime in. Thanks also to all the other replyers.
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~Stan
http://www.StanHinesleyPickups.com
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Fiero: It's not just a car, It's a HOBBY!

[This message has been edited by shinesley (edited 09-07-2009).]

quote Originally posted by KN16: All that said what it will do is make your car sound like Darth Vader stuck on inhale. (most noticeable at idle} and for my tastes that alone makes it worth it. (disclaimer-your tastes may vary)

I did this to my 88 Mera many years ago. Sounds great.

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Rodney Dickman

Fiero Parts And Acc's Web Page:
www.rodneydickman.com
Rodney Dickman's Fiero accessories
7604 Treeview Drive
Caledonia, WI 53108
Phone/Fax (262) 835-9575

Again, I know of 2 local Honda Civic owners who installed a CAI with the opening under the front bumper. Way lower than the throttle body. Both suffered a bent rod due to water being sucked in while driving in the rain.

Picture going down the highway in the rain and a semi passes in the opposite direction. While passing the semi hits a large puddle of water and throws up a sheet of water, part of which gets "scooped" and sucked.

Could happen, that's why I still have a rain baffle.

BTW When I first got my Coupe w/ the 3800, it didn't have the stock Fiero air cleaner setup. After I installed I the stock air cleaner the engine was a lot quieter with no noticeable decrease in performance.

If you want to make your engine's breathing louder, replace the Cat. with a straight pipe.

My son did on his Fiero, then put a glass pac in because he claimed the car sounded like a tank!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by 30+mpg:

Again, I know of 2 local Honda Civic owners who installed a CAI with the opening under the front bumper. Way lower than the throttle body. Both suffered a bent rod due to water being sucked in while driving in the rain.

If you want to make your engine's breathing louder, replace the Cat. with a straight pipe.

QUOTE]

Don't know about Hondas but there is yet to be a Fiero that has reported a problem on this forum. Many have been using that set up a lot longer than I have. I'd have to see the set up that was on the Hondas. I saw one once with a K&N hanging exposed under the front bumper, That's not to bright for a number of reasons and cant be compared to the Fiero/Rodney set up. Like I said how much iron rolled out of Detroit with scoops under the front bumper and no problems there either. The noise this set up makes can't be replaced by moding the exhaust, no mater what mod you choose. Exhaust is exhaust intake is intake,

quote Originally posted by KN16: I run Rodney's set up on my car....what it will do is make your car sound like Darth Vader stuck on inhale. (most noticeable at idle} and for my tastes that alone makes it worth it. (disclaimer-your tastes may vary)

KN16, I found very amusing your description of the sound of a Rodney Dickman "True Cold Air Intake" on a Fiero because it was so apt. I've struggled with how to describe that sound to others, but your characterization of it as "Darth Vader stuck on inhale" hit it right on the head, IMO.


And I agree, the sound is most noticeable at idle in my Fiero as well, and particularly when it's running at a faster, "cold idle."

Also, if you like that somewhat sinister sound now ("Darth Vader stuck on inhale"), I think you may like it even better if you use a Fiero Warehouse scoop with it, and make the scoop functional as Mike Murphy and I have. I've not done any "before-versus-after" testing of this, but I suspect that because of its size, a Fiero Warehouse scoop made functional has a slight "megaphone" effect on the sound of the Rodney Dickman air intake.

I installed the Rodney cold air system a few years ago. I use the K&N filter and I did the Rodney mod to the air filter base to remove yet another restriction.
Never had a problem with water getting in the air cleaner but I've only driven it in the rain maybe 3 times since July 2002 when I bought it.

I have had people comment about the unusual sound.

Spoon

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Two yeast spent their entire life "about 2 days" discussing what the purpose of life could be and not once did they even come close to the fact that they were making champagne. Quoted by: Unknown

quote Originally posted by carbon:.... How many times have you guys powered through 2 feet of water in your Fiero?

Hope your door seals are really good

Im using the wcf intake set up, it places the k+n filter in the wheel well next to the intake scoop, Ive never had a water problem but its LOUD you can hear it sucking air over the muffler noise at idle. But I love it... I want to get a ram air scoop soon..

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2004 yamaha r1
1987 fiero gt

quote Originally posted by 30+mpg: Could happen, that's why I still have a rain baffle.

It doesn't mater if you have the intake thingy in there or not, if you have a wall of water hit the side of you car it will get sucked into your engine just as easily with either setup.

I know of a case were water was sucked through 10 ft of intake tubing and an air filter before reaching a turbo where from there it went through another 12 ft of tubing and an inter-cooler before entering a couple cylinders and bending a couple rods. One solution was a simple water trap before the filter. This water trap looked a lot like the Fiero intake thingy unit except for one big difference in that the water was given an alternate path via an open bottom. There was a ton of testing done on this design and it never made it to production as given enough water the unit could be made to fail.

My point is that the Fiero unit is obviously not designed to be a water separator as it has no alternate path for the water and if 22 ft of tubing a turbo and an inter-cooler can't stop a wall of water then neither can the Fiero intake thingy.

quote Originally posted by KN16: All that said what it will do is make your car sound like Darth Vader stuck on inhale. (most noticeable at idle} and for my tastes that alone makes it worth it. (disclaimer-your tastes may vary)

I have a similar setup, with a FS Fiero side scoop and the sound for me is more noticeable (it absolutely screams) between 3K-3.5K under load on a cool, dry day. It's the only reason I'll ever have the radio off. I love the sound of the intake under hard acceleration.

Our '84 had the kit installed when we got it. Brought it home through the snow, have driven in traffic and on country roads in downpours. So far, no problems, although I don't hear a big difference over stock.

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'84 Sport Coupe (third time's a charm?)

I can speak from experience about bending things in Honda's.

We had a fairly nice 93 Honda Accord at one time with a CAI.
It was a Ractive brand,we had to cut a hole through the inner fender to install.
Put it under the airdam/baffle under the front bumper,about 5/6 inches from the ground.
Didn't have the cash for the valve so we drove commando for awhile.
Wife drove through about 2ft of water and car just died.
Got it home,sucked the water from the intake and cylinders and got it running again.
Drove like a bastard for two weeks till it broke the camshaft in half due to bent valve's.
(ended up being a good thing,bought a new head and p&p'ed with new cam etc...)

I learned to never use a CAI without the baffle,just in case.

There is alot of vacuum the engine is pulling,and it can suck water up.
The valve gives it the heavier water an alternate route other than the intake.
It will bypass the filter and pull air from the valve,the valve must be higher than the water for this to work though.
For $40,it's worth it.

I have since always pretty much made my own intake's now.
Use diesel exhaust tubing,route where you want and watch intake air temps through my pc till I find the sweet spot.
Can cut and splice in the bypass valve easily,along with drill and place IAT sensors.
*though I don't use it except when playing with timing,the PCM's calculated torque could also be used to calculate horsepower while monitoring the IAT's during fabrication.

[This message has been edited by DefEddie (edited 09-08-2009).]

quote Originally posted by Rodney: Everyone likes to call that thingy a water separator. I think it is a muffler. Anyone have any proof it is a water separator? Considering how low the air intake is compared to the air cleaner it would seem very hard for water to get that high up to contact the air cleaner element. I tend to think it is a muffler and has nothing to do with water going up into the air cleaner housing.

i also think its kind of an resonator.
we had this discussion in german forum and we got to the solution thats an "Helmholtz Resonator"
http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/jw/Helmholtz.html

and no waterseperator.
Discussion started because iam running a straight pvc pipe and people told me i will kill my engine that way .......
after 75000km its still alive and running and believe me we have rain here in northern germany .

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1984 Fiero Sport
1987 Fiero
1984 Fiero SE
1999 Chrysler Grand Voyager 3.3 LX LPG
SKYPE: Fieromaniac
*** nuclear winter cures global warming ***

quote Originally posted by DefEddie: I can speak from experience about bending things in Honda's. We had a fairly nice 93 Honda Accord at one time with a CAI. It was a Ractive brand,we had to cut a hole through the inner fender to install. Put it under the airdam/baffle under the front bumper,about 5/6 inches from the ground. Didn't have the cash for the valve so we drove commando for awhile. Wife drove through about 2ft of water and car just died. Got it home,sucked the water from the intake and cylinders and got it running again. Drove like a bastard for two weeks till it broke the camshaft in half due to bent valve's. (ended up being a good thing,bought a new head and p&p'ed with new cam etc...) I learned to never use a CAI without the baffle,just in case. There is alot of vacuum the engine is pulling,and it can suck water up. The valve gives it the heavier water an alternate route other than the intake. It will bypass the filter and pull air from the valve,the valve must be higher than the water for this to work though. For $40,it's worth it.

What you should have learned is to not drive through 2 feet of water with a cold air intake sucking air in from that down low. Like I said... the car is not going to pull in enough water through the side during normal non river crossing driving, even in the rain... If you have to go through 2 feet of water... pull the canister cover or, if you have a full CAI, pull the pipe at the throttle body...

And if you're worried about the semi bearing down on you and the literal tidal wave ( ) of water it will create from the puddles on the road... let of the gas and coast as it goes by, low filter vacuum, high manifold vacuum.

atomized water can travel with the airflow just fine
how much is dangerous?
how much can make it thru your airfilter?

the stock setup has endless water traps. the inlet itself, the "water seperator", the air filter can, the filter itself & the corrogated snorkle

small amounts of H2O getting sucked thru is actually beneficial. water loosens carbon.

most CIA setups, a cone filter is stuck into the "side scoop" area, and the filter is at a higher level than the inlet. just this simple setup will prevent most water from getting thru. as mentioned above - people have been doing this for a long time, and not a single issue

quote Originally posted by carbon: What you should have learned is to not drive through 2 feet of water with a cold air intake sucking air in from that down low. Like I said... the car is not going to pull in enough water through the side during normal non river crossing driving, even in the rain... If you have to go through 2 feet of water... pull the canister cover or, if you have a full CAI, pull the pipe at the throttle body... And if you're worried about the semi bearing down on you and the literal tidal wave ( ) of water it will create from the puddles on the road... let of the gas and coast as it goes by, low filter vacuum, high manifold vacuum.

I won't take credit for the driving through the lake,it was the wife
She knew better,but it was one of those things where everyone was stalling through it and she had nowhere to go but through it.
We went around and around about it,argument didn't stop till we sold the car...

Cars dead because of CAI...... Honda-3 Fiero-0

Moral of the story don't drive a Honda

LOL

man you can get a autozone cone for way cheaper and it does the same thing,if your up north keep it higher in the engine compartment and your golden!

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want a real upgrade?
Lamborghini Kit Cars

quote Originally posted by DefEddie: We had a fairly nice 93 Honda Accord at one time with a CAI....Wife drove through about 2ft of water and car just died.

I don't see how attempting to drive a Honda through 2 feet of water somehow points to a potentially worrisome design limitation of Rodney Dickman's "True Cold Air Intake," which was the focus of shinesley's inquiry when he originated this thread:

quote Originally posted by shinesley: Hi, I'm considering getting the True Cold Air Intake tube from Rodney Dickman. I also have the ram-air scoop from TFS. Anybody else have this setup? I'm a little concerned with sucking up water into my K&N when it rains.

shinesley, you should be fine with Rodney Dickman's "True Cold Air Intake."

I have Rodney's CAI and like the sound. No water issues. Easy to install and plan to add it to my new LS4 swap with the little vane welded into the filter housing that I do not have on the 3.4 swap. John

quote Originally posted by DavePatron: man you can get a autozone cone for way cheaper and it does the same thing,if your up north keep it higher in the engine compartment and your golden!

It does not do the same thing. Any air intake inside the engine compartment draws heated air. The higher you go the hotter the air. The coldest air comes from the factory air intake on the side of the body.

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Rodney Dickman

Fiero Parts And Acc's Web Page:
www.rodneydickman.com
Rodney Dickman's Fiero accessories
7604 Treeview Drive
Caledonia, WI 53108
Phone/Fax (262) 835-9575

quote Originally posted by DavePatron: man you can get a autozone cone for way cheaper and it does the same thing,if your up north keep it higher in the engine compartment and your golden!

Yeah, umm, sorry. You have built yourself a hot air intake. You really want air that is not from the engine bay. You are taking power away. But, I bet you that it looks good.

Tony

quote Originally posted by carbon: The real question is how anyone could possibly think that they are going to suck any significant amount of water from the side of the car, short of driving through a puddle as deep as the belt line? How many times have you guys powered through 2 feet of water in your Fiero? How does anyone think that water droplets running down the side of the car, then sucked in the intake tube to possibly be misted through an air filter, are going to do damage to anything? The only function that box has to muffle the high pitched noise associated with sucking air through a small hole... IAC port and part throttle openings. There is no physical way that a plastic box placed above the intake air path could possible separate water from the incoming air... look at it.

I had a Ferrari 308 kit that has integral scoops in the quarter panel. I fed my left side into a flex duct to my stock air cleaner canister. I did run a K&N filter because they are waterproof whereas the stock paper ones are not. Many Fieros have tons of rust in the airbox indicateing it DOES get wet. Ive seen paper filters swollen up like wet tissue paper rolls. In a hard rain on the freeway, you will ingest a lot of water thru the side scoop. Ive driven in rains that even caused missfires and complete shutoffs going down the highway. Just hold a glass out of your window driving down the road in a heavy rain and see how fast it will fill up. The stock baffle stops most water because it blocks the direct path of water going into the intake. It hits that and gravity makes most of it run out harmlessly at the bottom.

Roger the plastic chamber is above the intake tract not below it, how would gravity have any effect?

Also, I didn't say that no water would get up into the system, I said no significant water, such as hydro-locking amounts. If the filter media can not get wet then obviously it should be replaced if you see that it is deteriorating.

Also, the 308 scoop is hardly the same as stock and wouldn't work with Rodney's kit anyway... The 308 scoop would funnel water to that location, and it is higher up the side of the car. No where near the same situation as a stock Fiero body with the belt line routing water to the wheel arch right above the stock intake scoop.

Anyone ever cut one of those things in half? Pics?

[This message has been edited by carbon (edited 09-09-2009).]

The baffle part in my 86 was below the level of the air filter. If I remember the original had a small hole in the tube/box at the bottom to let the collected water run out. Im remembering from 10 years ago on a part I removed in the first place. I dont remember my air box looking anything like your photo. Again, mine didnt get hydro locked, but it would get in enough water to shut off the engine while I drove. Open the canister on yours and take out the filter. Bet the base of the inside of the canister is full of rust. If not, yours is one of the unusual ones.

[This message has been edited by rogergarrison (edited 09-09-2009).]

quote Originally posted by rogergarrison: The baffle part in my 86 was below the level of the air filter. If I remember the original had a small hole in the tube/box at the bottom to let the collected water run out. Im remembering from 10 years ago on a part I removed in the first place. I dont remember my air box looking anything like your photo. Again, mine didnt get hydro locked, but it would get in enough water to shut off the engine while I drove. Open the canister on yours and take out the filter. Bet the base of the inside of the canister is full of rust. If not, yours is one of the unusual ones.

Dang it... now I have to go look at my car...

quote Originally posted by rogergarrison: I did run a K&N filter because they are waterproof whereas the stock paper ones are not.

??? The cotton fiber of a K&N will not swell and cut off air flow as a paper filter will, however the greater air flow of a K&N means MORE water could pass. That said I run a K&N with Rodney's set up and still have no issues. Rust inside an air filter housing (as any car will) says to me poor maintenence not I've been sucking water. Rodney has sold more than a few of these. WestCoast sells a costlier version if your wallet is too heavy. Many many more have been home brewed. Still no one can point to a single instance where it has harmed a Fiero. We've got 3 Honda's down but sticking a K&N in harms way in no way compares to air flow leading to a Fiero filter housing. When someone asks how it works it would seem to me the people using that set up are the ones best fit to awnser the question. You can come up with all the theorys, second hand stories, or you own story of a diffrent set up but if you can't offer proof that it is harmful to the car or that the seller is making untrue claim why must we go through this???