I agree with Rodney that the box in the air intake system may be a muffler and not a water separator. Consider that the air intake is horizontal not verticle and that even if you pull in some water it will need to travel up to the air filter box, through the filter element and into the engine; certainly possible but I doubt of the air flow is sufficient to pull in any large amount of water. As for Rodneys CAI system; its top notch for a 2.8L/3.1L/3.4L but on my 3800SC , just to be safe, I used 3 1/2" pipe all the way through.

------------------
" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, 3.4" Pulley, N* TB, LS1 MAF, Flotech Exhaust Autolite 104's Custom CAI 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
"THE COLUSSUS"
87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

There won't be any problems with Rodney's intake system. Consider Airaid, K&N, and others make air intakes for pickup trucks and other cars that sit wide open behind the front grill and headlights. I haven't heard of water being sucked in those systems. I would think they would be more susceptible to water intake than the Fiero side intake would be, and these are products marketed for the modern mass produced vehicles. I know there are 1000's more of these out there than people have "cold air intakes" on the Fiero.

[This message has been edited by cjgable (edited 09-09-2009).]

Im def not knocking RDs stuff, he makes excellent products. My only points are that the baffle in the stock system does restrict water getting up to the filter. A scoop in the side like in the Ferrari does injest water and force it up by direct ram effect pressure...enough to drown out an engine. A stock flat Fiero will prob not get nearly the same amount. Some obviously does get up into the canister because the rust and soaked paper filters proves it. A small amount is of some actual benefit, not harm. As said it does break up carbon deposits and can add some power by cooling the air/ fuel mixture. Some piston engine fighter planes used water injection using a water tank and actual injectors to boost horsepower. My only arguement is that water does go into the air filter and a waterproof K&N filter is an improvement over the stock one just for that reason. Most of the good aftermarket CAI systems locate the actual filter out of a direct flow of incoming air and water like behind the side of the core support or above the radiator core. Id never use a paper filter where its in a direct line to be hit by incoming water. I know of one instance of a guy with his aftermarket CAI that placed the filter right under the edge of the hood opening and after a very heavy rain and a soaked/flooded filter had hydro lockup on his engine destroying it when he tried starting it.

I bought my car from a friend with the kit on it, and I've had no problems. Consider that I live in central Florida, rain is a daily occurrence. The only downside I guess (If you dont like it.. my friend says it sounds like a supercharger when I start it and play at the throttle) is that it sounds like a Boeing warming the jets before takeoff until the car warms up.

Not sure about performance gains, I doubt there is much involved. But thats how the small upgrades go. It definitely lets the engine breath better than the stock airbox though! That thing is a maze of plastic.

If you like it, thats what its all about. Many people including factory found the factory air system was as effiecient as any aftermarket. You cant breath any better without intake and exhaust modifications to go with it. ie/ you cant put more of anything thru a given opening without boosting it with pressure (turbo or supercharger). You would get a power gain if you opened up the throttle body, intake ports, exhaust ports and bigger tube headers....then added a less restrictive filter system.

I just got done installing a Dickman intake in my '86 GT. I had planned on installign one anyway, but I found out that my air box had a big crack in it and the 90* elbow that connects to the air box in the engine bay wasn't connected either. So yeah, thats probably why the car has a hard time starting sometimes...

Anyway, I have a cracked air box that I can cut up IN THE NAME OF SCIENCE! I think a pair of tin snips will lop it in two easily enough

I'll post pics tomorrow evening!

quote Originally posted by Rodney: Everyone likes to call that thingy a water separator. I think it is a muffler. Anyone have any proof it is a water separator? Considering how low the air intake is compared to the air cleaner it would seem very hard for water to get that high up to contact the air cleaner element. I tend to think it is a muffler and has nothing to do with water going up into the air cleaner housing. There is also no hole at the bottom of this plastic housing to drain any water that would get into this canister. This is another reason I tend to think no (or very little) water gets into this canister.

The GM parts book lists it as a "duct, air int (water seperation)", part number 10044264 so I guess everyone is right. Proof enough?


This is a pointless mod, dynos have shown that the factory one is more than enough. Completely removed and no change at all. GM didn't spend millions on research for nothing.

Why spend money on something that does not do any thing?

[This message has been edited by sardonyx247 (edited 09-12-2009).]

quote Originally posted by sardonyx247: Why spend money on something that does not do any thing?

Because it sounds really cool.

------------------
Rodney Dickman

Fiero Parts And Acc's Web Page:
www.rodneydickman.com
Rodney Dickman's Fiero accessories
7604 Treeview Drive
Caledonia, WI 53108
Phone/Fax (262) 835-9575

quote Originally posted by rogergarrison: Im def not knocking RDs stuff, he makes excellent products. My only points are that the baffle in the stock system does restrict water getting up to the filter. A scoop in the side like in the Ferrari does injest water and force it up by direct ram effect pressure...enough to drown out an engine. A stock flat Fiero will prob not get nearly the same amount. Some obviously does get up into the canister because the rust and soaked paper filters proves it. A small amount is of some actual benefit, not harm. As said it does break up carbon deposits and can add some power by cooling the air/ fuel mixture. Some piston engine fighter planes used water injection using a water tank and actual injectors to boost horsepower. My only arguement is that water does go into the air filter and a waterproof K&N filter is an improvement over the stock one just for that reason. Most of the good aftermarket CAI systems locate the actual filter out of a direct flow of incoming air and water like behind the side of the core support or above the radiator core. Id never use a paper filter where its in a direct line to be hit by incoming water. I know of one instance of a guy with his aftermarket CAI that placed the filter right under the edge of the hood opening and after a very heavy rain and a soaked/flooded filter had hydro lockup on his engine destroying it when he tried starting it.

In your friends application the air filter was probably soaked and waterlogged before allowing too much water into the engine. In the Fiero system the intake in horizontal and water would have to travel up and over the air filter box to the engine. It may be possible to get an excessive amount of water in the engine but I believe that its highly unlikely that this will happen. It appears that we have two schools of thought here so let us agree to disagee and in doing so we continue to keep the post cordial.

------------------
" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, 3.4" Pulley, N* TB, LS1 MAF, Flotech Exhaust Autolite 104's Custom CAI 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
"THE COLUSSUS"
87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

There have been dyno test on the stock air cleaner VS open and other units ,,stock was best by test..HOW ever it does not hurt any thing to clean up the stock system to IMPROVE it.. these modifications will only give a very slight boost to a heavily modified engine...AVOID cone fiters in the engine bay,, they hurt performance because they draw hot air !!
there can be a slight (very slight) horsepower increase if the mods bring the fuel / air ratio to better place with an older 02 sensor (sensor is lazy)
there is always the danger of access water entering the engine,,I never had a problem with my dailey driver duke..ocassionally we do have frog choker monsoon type rain here in tinker bell land.....
a great sounding "different" engine is a gear head delight ,,and as desirable as a compliant wife with healthy looking cantalopes hidden under her shirt..
I know this because my car sounds like crap (muffler baffled) while I await final modification to my exhaust ..
On the fiero 2.8 V6 intake the factory did a good job on the intake ..the expensive research comments,, just comes from old Fiero dyno test where the factory system was complimented

quote Originally posted by Alibi: ...I have a cracked air box that I can cut up IN THE NAME OF SCIENCE! I think a pair of tin snips will lop it in two easily enough I'll post pics tomorrow evening!

Posting those pics here would be excellent! Thank you.

After switching to a Rodney Dickman "True Cold Air Intake" myself, I've also one of those original GM, so-called "water separators" sitting around as well. After inspecting it this morning, it almost looks to me like one could pry apart its two halves at the lengthwise outside seam where the two halves are bonded together, but I've serious doubts that actually would work, because that bond appears to be quite strong.


However, assuming that there are several curved baffles and bends inside of it, I'm thinking you might have better luck cutting all that plastic in half with a hacksaw, or with some kind of rotary saw, rather than with tin snips.

In either event, Alibi, regardless of what you decide to do, I'll look forward to the pics you promised you'll be posting this evening.

I just got back in from being busy so I'll probably get to work on the box in a bit. I was thinking earlier that snips may not work too well but I have a dremel and a hacksaw handy so I'll just try 'em both and see what happens. I don't really care if the cuts are pretty since its just getting tossed afterwards but I am curious to see what the baffle on the inside looks like. I also found a pretty huge wasp nest on the inside too.... blech....

Wouldn't dirty water leave the dirt behind after it dried out?
I agree, though, I think it's primarily a muffler. Most GM cars have silencers in the intake. My 99 Grand Am and 00 Trans Am both have baffles designed to quiet the intake noise.

If it did leave the dirt when it drained, it would be left as lines as the water dripped out

Its pretty common for folks w/ GM cars to pull their stock air boxes apart and cut out the factory baffles. Sure they reduce the hissing sound but they also reduce the amount of air coming in overall. I don't think the Fiero baffle is as restrictive as some I've seen but it certainly doesn't seem to hurt anything to remove it. I think if the engine is pulling in mist from rain, its going to go around that baffle anyway.

Now, as a water catcher I would expect for there to be a drain hole right between those two baffles, but it doesn't look there is one in the pictures. Is there one there that I just can't easily see?

Or am I viewing it upside down? Does the hump point upwards or downwards inside the car?

[This message has been edited by Xanth (edited 09-12-2009).]

Hump points up and there isn't a drain hole anywhere.

I love this thread!

------------------
~Stan
http://www.StanHinesleyPickups.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fiero: It's not just a car, It's a HOBBY!

quote Originally posted by Rodney: Because it sounds really cool.

Then call it what it is "a cool sounding intake" not a "true cold air intake"

LOL

Since the stock system is all sealed up between the quarter outside intake and the air filter canister, how would you explain soaked paper air filters and rusted out canister bottoms if no water enters ? Both of my V6s had evidence of water soaking the elements (swollen, discolored) and rusted out bottoms in the canisters. My Ferrari kit just was straight ducted from the side scoop (ferrari) into the stock canister system with K&N filter. I had several times engine drowned out and quit in heavy rain. I didnt have any trouble with the carbed V8 one that was not ducted at all.

quote Originally posted by rogergarrison: LOL Since the stock system is all sealed up between the quarter outside intake and the air filter canister, how would you explain soaked paper air filters and rusted out canister bottoms if no water enters ? Both of my V6s had evidence of water soaking the elements (swollen, discolored) and rusted out bottoms in the canisters. My Ferrari kit just was straight ducted from the side scoop (ferrari) into the stock canister system with K&N filter. I had several times engine drowned out and quit in heavy rain. I didnt have any trouble with the carbed V8 one that was not ducted at all.

The stock V6 air cleaner is under the engine vent. I've had my air filter get soaked during a downpour when the car isn't even being driven from water coming in around the wingnut that holds the lid on. I put a washer and a wingnut with a flat base on it and that's cut down on the water a lot.

I take it your carbed V8 air cleaner is under the decklid - not the engine vent?

Yeup, my thoughts are also that the air cleaner gets wet from sitting under the vent. My stock air cleaner base is covered in surface rust and up till yesterday it was ran with a stock airbox. I imagine that water vapor is going to get pulled into the filter when it rains just because the air is saturated with it anyway as well as any other possible water sources coming in from the top side (bad lid gasket, loose wingnut, etc).

The dust buildup on the baffles of the stock box sells me on the muffler theory. However, if someone were to take their stock box out just after running the car though a heavy rain and then cutting it in half, I'd love to see it

quote Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua: It appears that we have two schools of thought here so let us agree to disagee and in doing so we continue to keep the post cordial.

Better yet let's just go back to the poor guys question. Some one just wanted to know who was using this and what results came of it. He didn't say if you're not using it what do you think might happen. He didn't ask what happened to a friend of a friend of a friend. He didn't ask about Honda's (used for a boat or otherwise). With all these experts predicting doom and gloom we still have a huge number of cars using this set up or others like it and yet not a single Fiero down.

quote Originally posted by sardonyx247: Then call it what it is "a cool sounding intake" not a "true cold air intake"

I believe that when Rodney named it a "True Cold Air Intake" he was referring to the difference between his and a CAI that is essentially a tube with a cone filter on the end that mounts in the engine bay. I don't think that he is disputing that the stock system is not a cold air intake. All you have to do is read his description.
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~Stan
http://www.StanHinesleyPickups.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fiero: It's not just a car, It's a HOBBY!

[This message has been edited by shinesley (edited 09-13-2009).]

Cold air intake = air entering intake system is supplied from a source outside the engine compartment (by defination) Stock system is a cold air intake. Not disagreeing that Rodneys is good quality and has a different sound if thats what you like. A cone on a tube in the engine compartment is not a CAI....it is actually a hot air intake system

You guys crack me up!

Your taking this way toooooo serious. Toooooo much thought going into this. Do what I did when I built my "True" cold air intake. I used this when I built my Supras

http://www.speedzonemotorsp.../P/image.php-859.jpg

This will solve all problems and worries for sucking up water! If your cone filter hits water, this will start sucking in air until the water is gone.

[This message has been edited by TEXASGT (edited 09-13-2009).]

quote Originally posted by KN16: ...let's just go back to the poor guys question. Some one just wanted to know who was using this and what results came of it. He didn't say if you're not using it what do you think might happen. He didn't ask what happened to a friend of a friend of a friend. He didn't ask about Honda's (used for a boat or otherwise). With all these experts predicting doom and gloom we still have a huge number of cars using this set up or others like it and yet not a single Fiero down.

That, IMO, was said very well, KN16.
***

quote Originally posted by Alibi: Hump points up and there isn't a drain hole anywhere.

I don't see a drain hole anywhere on mine, either. Thank you for posting your pics on this, Alibi.

***

quote Originally posted by sardonyx247: ...call it what it is "a cool sounding intake" not a "true cold air intake"

But it IS a "true cold air intake."

It just happens to sound cool as well, and I suspect Rodney Dickman understandably might reject "Cool-Sounding True Cold Air Intake" as a bit too wordy a description for his product.
***
In summary, because the original GM piece of plastic holds water, I think that "water separator" theory many may have assigned to it --- doesn't.

No problem on posting pics

I had fun cutting up the box and it was destined for the dumpster anyway since it was cracked.

I think I drive with the sunroof off and windows down in Tulsa 100 degree weather to hear that sound of the Borla exhaust and Rodney's intake on mly 3.4 with Trueleo intake, big cam and headers at 6,000 rpm on a regular basis. When it's 30 I do the same with heat on and windows down. I love that sound! John BTW my ac works fine.

So I assume we can all agree that whether you use stock, or Rodney's air intake, the only true difference is the sound. More or less, it's a side-grade. Also, the amount of water needed to seriously deter the performance of a Fiero is dictated solely on whether you drive it through a river or not. Humidity probably plays a larger role, imo.

...just poking fun at what this thread has turned into.

quote Originally posted by shinesley: I love this thread!

That's all well and good. shinesley, but before this thread starts to become acerbic, turning brother against brother, would you be kind enough to get it over with and just BUY Rodney Dickman's "True Cold Air Intake," and post that you've done that?

Besides, at this point, you already know all the key points you need to know that are even remotely related to this simple modification that several of us already successfully have run on our Fieros. Those key points, however even remotely related to this simple modification appear to be two:

1. Don't drive Hondas.
   
2. Don't drive Hondas through rivers.
   

Also, don't argue with your "significant other" about the lack of wisdom that is evidenced clearly by one driving Hondas through rivers. Such arguments only will end badly, and your significant other only will continue to assert vociferously that driving Hondas through rivers is a perfectly sensible, logical, and time-proven idea whose benefits are well-known to all of mankind as such --- except, of course, to you.

Accordingly, my advice to you, sir, simply is to buy Rodney Dickman's "True Cold Air Intake," install it on your Fiero if you think you'd like the sinister sound of "Darth Vader stuck on intake" (KN16's apt description, IMO) as much as I do, and then, just so that you potentially don't leave yourself vulnerable to all manner of irrelevant criticisms about it later, NEVER drive through a river with your Fiero --- even though it's apparently only the spouses of people in Hondas who regard that as a worthwhile, and perfectly sensible pastime.

quote Originally posted by project34: That's all well and good. shinesley, but before this thread starts to become acerbic, turning brother against brother, would you be kind enough to get it over with and just BUY Rodney Dickman's "True Cold Air Intake," and post that you've done that? Besides, at this point, you already know all the key points you need to know that are even remotely related to this simple modification that several of us already successfully have run on our Fieros. Those key points, however even remotely related to this simple modification appear to be two: Don't drive Hondas. Don't drive Hondas through rivers. Also, don't argue with your "significant other" about the lack of wisdom that is evidenced clearly by one driving Hondas through rivers. Such arguments only will end badly, and your significant other only will continue to assert vociferously that driving Hondas through rivers is a perfectly sensible, logical, and time-proven idea whose benefits are well-known to all of mankind as such --- except, of course, to you. Accordingly, my advice to you, sir, simply is to buy Rodney Dickman's "True Cold Air Intake," install it on your Fiero if you think you'd like the sinister sound of "Darth Vader stuck on intake" (KN16's apt description, IMO) as much as I do, and then, just so that you potentially don't leave yourself vulnerable to all manner of irrelevant criticisms about it later, NEVER drive through a river with your Fiero --- even though it's apparently only the spouses of people in Hondas who regard that as a worthwhile, and perfectly sensible pastime.

Very well said

Going to to fjord a river in my Fiero while my spouse sinks with the vapor-locked Honda

[This message has been edited by Rallaster (edited 09-16-2009).]

Whatever you think about the stock Fiero intake, it is a true cold air intake. I don't know anything about those over the top scoops.

I have Rodney's kit and I love it. Rodney doesn't make any claims about measurable horsepower gains but it's just such a great simple little design, and it certainly could improve airflow a bit. I don't have any scoops or anything (I have a few of those little Holley side scoops lying around but they don't do anything and I think they look silly).

With Rodney's kit, you will get a slight hissing sound from the side cold air intake at idle. It's not loud though, not nearly as loud as having one of those cone filters in the engine bay (those things just suck hot air). With Rodney's kit you get a cool but subtle (not loud) intake sound, which I like.

The way the stock airbox setup is designed, water will have to make an uphill trip to get in, even without the GM water separator, i.e., you won't be sucking water (water doesn't run uphill). I am talking normal driving conditions here.

I do like getting rid of unnecessary junk, which I think the "water separator" is.

quote Originally posted by Rodney: Everyone likes to call that thingy a water separator. I think it is a muffler. Anyone have any proof it is a water separator? Considering how low the air intake is compared to the air cleaner it would seem very hard for water to get that high up to contact the air cleaner element. I tend to think it is a muffler and has nothing to do with water going up into the air cleaner housing.

I was just going to say, until I read this... that was always my thought too. I just assumedly refer to it as a water seperator since that's the forum "name" for it, but I've always thought it was a sound baffle. Most air intakes that do have a water seperator of sorts, usually have somewhere for the water to drain out of... (otherwise what is it exactly it's seperating the water from?).

quote Originally posted by carbon: The real question is how anyone could possibly think that they are going to suck any significant amount of water from the side of the car, short of driving through a puddle as deep as the belt line? How many times have you guys powered through 2 feet of water in your Fiero?

Many years ago... when I was LESS mature...

I remember that a hurricane and come through here in South Florida... not dangerous, but it dumped tons and tons of rain. It flooded the parking lot that you South Florida guys will know... it's where they have that massive 400+ car show every Friday.

Anyway... I hauled ass through a huge intersection (in the parking lot, there was no one there) and created a massive title-wave on each side of my car... almost like I was surfing.

So... I was 19, maybe... and that's when I first learned that your brakes stop working when your wheels are submerged...

There were massive sheets of water that were probably about 10 feet high, and the water was definitely 2-feet deep...

I had the Holley side-scoop on it at the time, and had already done the "hammer handle in the water seperator upgrade" and didn't get any water in my engine...


That was 12-13 years ago... if it rains, I don't even take my Fiero out of the garage.
Oh, I have this kit too, but just haven't installed it yet.

------------------
Todd,
2008 Jeep Patriot Limited 4x2
2002 Ford Explorer Sport 2dr 4x2
2002 Ford Crown Victoria LX
1987 Pontiac Fiero SE / V6
1981 EZ-GO Xi875-A "Miami Dolphins" Medical Cart
1973 Volkswagen Type-2 Transporter

quote Originally posted by project34: That's all well and good. shinesley, but before this thread starts to become acerbic, turning brother against brother, would you be kind enough to get it over with and just BUY Rodney Dickman's "True Cold Air Intake," and post that you've done that?

Acerbic? Turning brother against brother? LOL. I don't see that at all. Everybody has an opinion and is happy to offer it...along with some great Honda stories. That IS the definition of "forum" isn't it?

BTW, I do plan to get Rodney's intake and will be posting my opinion...and maybe a funny story or two as well.

------------------
~Stan
http://www.StanHinesleyPickups.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No, it's NOT an MR2.........

What you people didn't see was the little square cut out in the baffle. It is the size of a screwdriver tip and lets water bypass the whole assembly right into the stock air canister. Look at this picture and imagine the opposite half having the same cutout.

It would take about 3/4 of an inch in the inlet before the water could get out past the second short baffle. If it was a water separator, I would think there would be a small hole between the two baffles but I don't see any. Dunno...

This is an interesting thread, but I'm not sure that we've quite solved the question of whether the baffle is a water separator or an air hiss muffler

quote Originally posted by shinesley: BTW, I do plan to get Rodney's intake and will be posting my opinion...and maybe a funny story or two as well.

I believe the operative exclamation here is "Yay!"
I'll look forward to your post --- and hopefully, your funny story --- but I think it will be difficult to top the ones already posted by those driving through rivers, including the amusing story 82-T/A [At Work] posted just five threads above.


When some of us (not you) gripe about other parts not working in Hondas driven through two feet of water, some of our better, more reputable Fiero vendors around here, who help us keep our beloved Fieros on the road, like Rodney Dickman, for example, IMO must think, "Oh, great...here we go again!"

[This message has been edited by project34 (edited 09-17-2009).]