A chap in WikiAnswers is asking the following question. I'm going to post a link to this path for him to see any answers anyone may add. Thanks.

Can buick 215 v8 fit fiero 1988 auto or 5 spd?

Don't know if they will mate to the transmission but the 215 was a bullet proof engine. They seemed to run forever IF taken care of.
(IE not overheated).

Maybe it was due to the small displacement but I knew a couple different people that had them and they ran for 200K which I thought was crazy being carb'd engines. Some of the 215 engines that GM built would do 200hp from the factory.

I had a chance to buy a rolled car with one and thought it would be fun to make a small T bucket roadster with one. Didn't buy it, wish I had.

The 215 was a nice engine if properly cared for, and since it was all aluminum it was really light. These engines were among the first American V8s to be used successfully in international sports car competition. One "prepared" 215 (Buick variant) that I built up in 1965 was reportedly still running several years ago. Sadly, the engine and the car it was installed in had been separated as part of a divorce settlement (not mine).

I don't remember what bell housing bolt pattern the 215 used, but an adapter plate would be required for use with any GM transverse-mount (i.e. FWD) transmission. The length of the 215 would likely be the only other problem with such an installation in a Fiero. I think that the 215 was only slightly shorter than a SBC, but It's been a long time and I just don't remember all the details. The distributor is at the front end of the 215, right above the water pump, and that does add to its overall length.

Edit: Concerning bell housing bolt pattern.

[This message has been edited by Marvin McInnis (edited 12-07-2009).]

If I remember correctly, the 215 is the same block that Rover bought for the 3.5-3.9-4.0 series engines. If you look at them, they are pretty long. The water pumps and other front-of-engine parts are not condusive to FWD mounting. I think that's why so many just do the caddy swaps. Came designed for FWD applications. Just look how compact the water pump is, alternator integrated onto the intake etc. Plus the the 4.x series are FI.

I'm sure it could be done, might have to mod the engine bay a little. Seems like a chunk of work though?

This isn't the first time I've talked to someone about this. Initially I thought the ends didn't justify the means, and the sbc has a bigger aftermarket, so it is the answer if you want a v8. But upon more research, I would certainly consider this option. Its very light and made very good power. The 200hp version is the same power as the 3800n/a but it is lighter. There is an aftermarket for the 215, and Rover versions came in up to 307ci. Does anyone know if the Rover V8 retained the 90* bellhousing? TVR used these motors and in the early 90s they rated their version of the 5.0L at 340hp. They claimed 240 out of the 4.0L, and 280hp out of the 4.3L. My research leads me to believe the TVR head and blocks were slightly different, but clearly based off the rover V8. The later 4.0L Rover motors used in things like the Land Rover made 188hp on less than the 11:1 the performance 215s of the 60s used.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rover_V8

Link to the TVR Chimera, scroll down, you'll get performance figures
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TVR_Chimaera

The engine appears to be narrower than a SBC, the heads tilt in more. Room for better headers?


From wikipedia

"The 215 had a 4.24 in (107.7 mm) bore spacing, a bore of 3.5 in (88.9 mm), and a stroke of 2.8 in (71.1 mm), for an actual displacement of 3,533 cc (215.6 cu in).[citation needed] The engine was the lightest mass-production V8 in the world, with a dry weight of only 318 lb (144 kg). It was standard equipment in the 1961 Buick Special."

"At introduction, Buick's 215 was rated 150 hp (112 kW) at 4400 rpm. This was raised soon after introduction to 155 hp (116 kW) at 4600 rpm. 220 ft·lb (298 N·m) of torque was produced at 2400 rpm with a Rochester 2GC two-barrel carburetor and 8.8:1 compression ratio. A mid-year introduction was the Buick Special Skylark version, which had 10.25:1 compression and a four-barrel carburetor, raising output to 185 hp (138 kW) at 4800 rpm and 230 ft·lb (312 N·m) at 2800 rpm.

For 1962, the four-barrel engine increased the compression ratio to 10.25:1, raising it to 190 hp (142 kW) at 4800 rpm and 235 ft·lb (319 N·m) at 3000 rpm. The two-barrel engine was unchanged. For 1963, the four-barrel was bumped to 11:1 compression and an even 200 hp (149 kW) at 5000 rpm and 240 ft·lb (325 N·m) at 3200 rpm, a respectable 0.93 hp/cu in (56.6 hp/L)."

"Surplus engine blocks of the Oldsmobile (6 bolt per cylinder) version of this engine formed the basis of the Formula One Repco V8 used by Brabham to win the 1966 and 1967 Formula One world championship. No other American stock-block engine has won a Formula One championship."

The engine on ebay looks like it has a buick olds pattern.

quote Originally posted by Mr.PBody: Wikipedia says the (215 Buick) bellhousing ... is NOT the same as the SBC pattern. ... are you sure they are the same? Sounds like you know your 215s.

Sorry. That was more than 40 years ago and I don't remember the details. I do know that I removed a Chevy 305 from the project car and replaced it with the aluminum Buick 215, retaining the same Chevy transmission. In retrospect, I probably swapped in the Buick bell housing at the same time. It is still safe to say that an adapter would be required to use the 215 V8 with any GM transverse (FWD) transmission.

[This message has been edited by Marvin McInnis (edited 12-07-2009).]

Oldsmobile offered the "Jetfire" with a turbocharged 215 that ran a factory water/alcohol injection set up. Years ago, I built an 11 to 1 Buick 215 with a Kenne Bell Stage 2 Cam, Offenhauser intake, and Thermo Quad carburetor. It was attached to a 4-speed transmission with an electrically actuated overdrive. As I recall, the bellhousing was BOP pattern. I installed it in a 73 Vega GT Wagon. It would easily rev to 6500 (2.8 in stroke), got great gas mileage, and suprised quite a few Vettes and other muscle cars. Also it only weighed 20 lbs. more than the aluminum 4 cyl. Vega engine I took out. It was a great motor, but I don't think it will be an easy fit for a Fiero.

Do a search for D&D Fabrications. They are everything 215 here in the US. The also build complete engines. Back in the day they offered a swap kit for the Vega. That is where I got mine. It fit great, and looked even better in bare aluminum. I has a lot of people scratching their heads as to what kind of engine it was. Valve covers and intake were "Offenhauser" pieces so it had a racy look.

From what I've found online dimensions wise it appears to be an easier fit than the SBC. I called a friend tonight and he thinks he may be able to find me one. If so I'll pick it up when I go home for the holidays.

The way to go would probably be a Range Rover 4.2L longblock converted to carbeureted, the Rover EFI system would be hard to graft into a fiero, very little support is out there for the ecms.

Marvin, I assumed it took an adapter, I just was curious if it was the same as the SBC, because I've already got one of those.

I looked at the 215 several years ago. I did a lot of figuring to see what it would take to put it into a Fiero.

In fact I still have a block sitting around.

The bolt pattern on the back of the engine is not the SBC pattern.

The crank bolt pattern for the F/W is not SBC either.

Note that the engine block extends down below the crankshaft. This will mean that, if you're going to get the starter close enough to the flywheel to be able to engage the pinion gear to the ring gear, you're going to have to cut away part of the engine block or mount the starter to the transmission.



On the original application they had the starter mounted on the right side of the engine thru this hole cast into the engine block. To make clearance for the axle shaft assembly this part of the engine block will have to be cut away.

Also note the oil filter will have to be relocated. Remote oil filter parts are easy to find for the SBC but when I was looking into it, I couldn't find one for the 215.



The overall length of the 215 is 25". The SBC is only 23.5". In this picture, you'll notice that the distributor sets out in front of the cylinder heads in the engine block casting that is the back of the waterpump. The SBC (& most other engines)have the distributor nestled between the heads.





With the exhaust manifolds bolted onto the engine the 215 is 23" wide. The SBC with the ram horn exhaust manifolds is also 23" wide. Without the manifolds the SBC is 18.25" wide. Without manifolds the 215 is about 20" wide.



Archie

[This message has been edited by Archie (edited 12-07-2009).]

Hrm, well if my friend ends up finding his 215 I am going to play with it. I've got a spare cradle, 4speed, and a whole spare car. I only know of one fiero running a 215 and it is longitudinal (no I don't have ANY info). It is lighter than the SBC, and obviously much less common. My local pull and pay had a 3.9L Rover a couple months ago, didn't give it a second look.

Interesting reading, Thanks Archie for the info. I'll follow this as I have a 3.9 sat in an 89 Range Rover classic that I'm stripping for parts. I was going for a Northstar swap but have been looking for a cheaper alternative and as I already have the lump this would be the cheapest. Parts over hear are plentyful unlike the N*.

They do a remote oil filter kit

http://www.realsteel.co.uk/section1.pdf

Unfortunately they are not very powerful engines but they are very light, approx 375lb TVR were notorious for exaggerating their power outputs however they made one of the best sounding V8s ever here is one Ive installed in an early 2 door Range Rover and converted it to carbs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phzXcJi6NdQ

I think you would be very lucky to get hold of a TVR engine over in the states but the 4.6 from a P38 would produce 225bhp and 277 lb ft

Do any breakers there have TVRs? Or are they all on ebay and over valued? I am trying to find a 215 so I can play with the idea, if it were something I'd ultimately like to make run, I would probably opt for a TVR motor or RR motor.

there are plenty of breakers with Range Rover engines however TVR breakers are rare, just found this on Ebay.co.uk

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eB...em&item=220516996723

Interestingly they advertise Cerbera parts...... mmm a 4.5 AJP flat plane crank engine with 420hp 380lbft carried the 1178kg Cerbera to 60 in 4.2 sec and on to 185mph Now we're talking

Was the 4.5L Cerbera still Rover based?

Well my friend went and looked for the 215, turns out his friend who also stores cars and parts there gave it away lol. So... I won't be getting a 215 as soon as I hoped. There are a few on craigslist and ebay, but as archie showed, this isn't going to be easy, so I don't really want to pay like $500 for a total long shot. I'm looking for a blown or cracked motor to mock up with.

Check our www.aluminumv8.com for 215 info and performance parts.

Nope the AJP V8 was a completely new engine that TVR designed in house. After that they went with their own designed Speed 6 engine that is in the Tuscan. Not a bad effort for a small engineering firm based in Blackpool. However that didn't save them from going into liquidation even after getting bought out by the Russians.

Thats a shame, $500 is a lot to pay. lets hope there is someone out there who would donate their old engine. There must be plenty around as lack of oil changes gunked the things up. Best bet it to contact the Land Rover forums over there

When I was in high school my dad had a midget race car with a 215 Olds in it. We had a spare stock motor sitting around so we put it in a Chevy Luv pickup we had with a bad motor...talk about a sleeper!

My gf had huge urge for a Discovery last year, so I tried to buy one for her. Pretty much all the stuff I found that was in my price range had a cracked block. So I went an spent more money on an F250 haha. People don't change the oil and don't take care of them, run them hot, and blow them apart. I was hoping I'd be able to find some, I've got a craigslist WTB ad, but that isn't getting me anywhere.

Bummer the flat plane crank wasn't in the Rover motor.

Hmmm..a little retro seventies stuff anyone? A stroked 215 would go easy into one of these I bet. IF you can find one. Quick search yielded little. Most Unbirds are probably contained within your washing machine by now.

BTW, the TR8 had a 3.5 in it, if it wasn't mentioned previous.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wik..._Sunbird_Formula.jpg

Mark

quote Originally posted by MarkS: Most Unbirds are probably contained within your washing machine by now.

Translation please.

quote Originally posted by Patrick: Translation please.

Sorry; the Sunbirds are now scrap steel recycled into well...washing machines.....and other things of course.

Mark

I was under the impression the Sunbird Formula used a Buick 231 (3.8, V6, cast iron).

quote Originally posted by Mr.PBody: I was under the impression the Sunbird Formula used a Buick 231 (3.8, V6, cast iron).

Yeah they did, my point was that it would be an easy swap. But, as you mention, the thing is set up for the 3.8 so the Turbo GN might be easier and faster I guess. Wouldn't be a high revving V8 though.

The whole idea behind the original post, a light weight aluminium high revving V8 in the Fiero is attractive for certain. I would be very interested but don't have the time to do a prototype like that. If adapters & a proceedure would be made available, that would be another story.

BR's,

Mark

Hi everyone.I'm a newbe(registered a few days ago),but have visited for a few months since learning about the
forum.
The thread about fitting a 215 in a Fiero made me come out of the closet,so to speak.I have been driving a
turbo'd 215 Fiero since 1999. Does it fit?-YES;easy?-no. A little background;I became fond of the little engine
in the 70's when I put one in a Fiberfab Avenger with a Kelmark adapter and a Corvair transaxle.I have collected 5 motors(all Olds versions)over the years and have put them in a variety of vehicles.
Don't remember for sure if Fieros were still in production when I got the idea to put one in(if not,shortly thereafter).Bear in mind ,that at the time all the newer lightweight compact engines were either non exsistent or not affordable(at least,not by me).Since I own a repair shop(mostly trans repair),I get to see a lot of cars to get ideas from and junk parts to mess with and see what fits. Since I'm a project freak,and it's a help with my work,I own a milling machine and two lathes.
My goals were to try to keep the weight close, so as not to upset the balance of the car,good milage,the power of a small block(hense the turbos),and clean(closed loop EFI). I bought a rolled 86 for $100 for parts and a template to get started and began mearsuring. Working before and after work,I built an alignment fixture and hacked up a bad block where the starter goes(ck Archies post) to allow fitting the trans and building the adaptor,mounts,ect.
Since I'm not an engineer,my build specs for parts are mostly hand drawings with dimensions that I understand. Too bad-so sad,because it makes it hard to duplicate by others. Who knew?
The engine is large for the displacement and as long as a SBC. The good news is GM kept many things the same
for years(even after they sold the 215 rights to Rover,they retained the same bolt pattern/alignment for the
timing cover&front crank dimensions as the subsequent v-6's(3.0,3.3,3.8). Now comes the oppertunity to shorten the engine by nearly 4 inches. A few custom build problems here;1-one of the crank driven oil pump timing cover oil passages doesn't macth the block,2-now no distributor.
The oil passage could be addressed in two ways;weld a boss on the block(about a 1/4") or build a plate between block and cover. I chose to build a plate because my miller doesn't have enough Knee depth to mill the block after welding. Welding is probably the best way-just simpler if someone can machine it off(less gaskets,less chance of leaks,although mine has been leak free).
Cams are availible and fit many Buick engines as well as Rovers(Olds 215's are the same,but not always listed as such).The drive end of the cam has to be modified(shortened,drilled and threaded deeper,keyway cut back
to journal more,crossdrilled to feed custom sprocket bolt that houses a 125 governor thrust bearing that mates
to the thrust boss on the timing cover). Sounds complicated,but not much more than an hours worth of machine work on the cam. The bolt,about 1/2 hour. The scary part was turning a brand new cam into something that only
fits this application and not knowing if it will work! I'm on my second cam(a Crane turbo grind that works
great). The v6 crank sprocket(also drives oil pump)uses same chain as 215(need 215 cam sprocket)and timing marks are the same.
Now I have a powertrain that fits between the body rails. I chose to use a Z28 TPI ecm because it was popular
and had the most tuning info at the time. I built my own DIS(two different ones-first a hybrid using two 4 cyl. modules and my own to make it work,and 2nd-one stand alone microcontroller based unit progammable for dwell,coil current control and trouble codes).
Sorry,this is turning into a novel. I'll just mention some of the components used and reply to questions,if
any.
1;Intake manifold is EFI Rover,TR8 with handbuilt plenum useing dual inlet Ford 300 6 efi throttle body for
the two turbos.
2;turbos are T3 .48 ar ex,50 trim compressors,fabricated manifolds
3;trans is modified 4T60,1-1 sprockets,3.33 final
4;fuel pump-LT1,injectors-22 lbs/hr 5.7 TPI
5;boost control-home built module with driver adjustable 10-15 psi limit(originally just wastegates set at
10 psi).
It has been an ongoing project,but rewarding. Good millage-27 on Interstate,24 up and down hill on county roads,good power,sounds cool(nothin sounds like a V8-that's the wow factor-most don't even ask how big the engine is).

I would post some pics if I knew how-tried and failed-any help?
Thanks,Marc

Hi Marc,

Great read, was very interested in your post.

Try this site to download your photos, http://www.myfiero.com/imagehost.php

the motors people put in fieros continue to amaze .most people dont even know that GM made an all aluminum small block in the early 60's and here one is in a fiero .with twin turbos no less .i am more than impressed .great job .

Welcome to the forum OldsFiero! Can't wait to see the pics. What tranny? How did you adapt it to the block?

------------------
1986 SE 350 V8

Wow, great read.

Can't wait to see more.

Welcome to the Forum.

Archie

I'm waiting to get an 87 Land? Rover(or Range? Rover) 3.9 pulled. There's a 25 acre junk yard next door to me, I help keep an I on the place, get a discount, I do most of the disconnecting. I have two 215's I've drug to Alaska & back-just can't give 'em up. Have picked
up spare 300 heads/crank, intakes/exhausts,flexplates/flywheels. Also got a pair of Buick 340 Aluminum heads that bolt on the 215's.
I snagged a bellhouseing yrs back & welded a 1/2" al. plate to it so I could adapt the 215 to a 1962 Tempest 4 speed transaxle, and a
custom made input shaft,all of which I still have, plan to use in one of my fieros, NOW.

I applaud Archie,some Kat named "MadCurl", among many other talented people who do amazing work on their fieros!!!
Some 25 yrs ago-a man in Washington(the state) used to rebuild these motors using ford 4 cylinder pistons, & other parts/mods,kept
the article-just can't find it, maybe old stuff now. Man, and to think I was gonna sell a pickup truck load of this stuff for $200.00 a few
months back. The 3.9 runs, smokes, 119k- tried to get this same car yrs back-no sale-$200 for the motor now....

Hi everyone. Thanks for the kind words. For tesmith66;what trans?-it's a 4T60(440T4),ck my first post for the gearing. How did I make the adaptor?-After
removing the starter boss so the transaxle clears the block(I have a spare block that was actually the one I used to make the adaptor,and maybe after
X-mas I can get a few pics of that) ,I started with a 1/4" steel plate 18" square. Then turned a piece of round stock to fit the crank pilot on one end and
the sprocket support in the trans on the other end. I then bored a hole in the center of the plate to the same diamiter as the pilot tool. Next,I turned
out two dowels with center points to put in the block where the alignment dowels go,set the plate on the block,put the alignment tool thru the center hole,
tapped the plate against the dowel/center punches,and bored the alignment dowel holes. With that done,and the original dowels back in the block,I used threaded center finders to mark the bolt holes.I used countersunk allen bolts where needed for clearence. Center punch dowels were made to fit the trans case,the alignment tool installed in trans,case set down against plate,and dowel centers marked along with the trans bolts. After boreing those holes,plate
was threaded for trans bolts(with nuts tacked on for more strengh),trans dowels built/installed. The plate outline was then marked out and sawn to shape. It
then went in the drum lathe and the center was cut out. An aluminum plate was milled and bolted on to mount the starter. A 3/8" thick flywheel to crank
spacer was made to get the correct stab depth for the converter. The flywheel is early 3.1 fwd(crank bolt circle is the same and all but one hole lined up,
just egged it over with a dremel) An adaptor bushing was made to go in the crank pilot to center the flywheel and converter.
Here are some pics
http://myfiero.com/thumb/thumb_19648_.jpg
http://myfiero.com/thumb/thumb_19649_.jpg
http://myfiero.com/thumb/thumb_19655_.jpg
http://myfiero.com/thumb/thumb_19656_.jpg
http://myfiero.com/thumb/thumb_19657_.jpg

quote Originally posted by OldsFiero: Sorry guys, these might be easier to see http://myfiero.com/uploads/19648_.jpg http://myfiero.com/uploads/19658_.jpg http://myfiero.com/uploads/19659_.jpg http://myfiero.com/uploads/19660_.jpg http://myfiero.com/uploads/19661_.jpg

You sir have just installed my "dream swap". Kudos to you!

I loved my Buick 215 in my 73 Vega GT wagon from back in the day. How much boost are you running on the turbos? How does the weight compare to the stock 2.8. I remember a stock 215 weighed only 315 lbs complete. I hoped somone would do this swap. Great job!!

quote Originally posted by Rick 88: I loved my Buick 215 in my 73 Vega GT wagon from back in the day. How much boost are you running on the turbos? How does the weight compare to the stock 2.8. I remember a stock 215 weighed only 315 lbs complete. I hoped somone would do this swap. Great job!!

Hi, I'm baaaack! Now that I've got some time,I thought I'd post some pics of the powertrain in the car before this thread dies.
reguards,Marc

It never ceases to amaze me how some guys who are geniuses when it comes to doing engine swaps can have so much trouble when it comes to simple stuff like posting images!

See if there's anything in the following thread that might help you get those images posted.

Please Help Fight the Red X

I just want to chime in and say that you've done a fine job with your Fiero!