Had a meeting of cars earlier today https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/079052.html that resulted in gougesin my hood. Hood already needed refinishing (whole car really) as clearcoat is gone and it has lots of scratches thru the surface but not it really needs doing!

What's the best stuff to use to fill in gouges (through to the fibre) in the hood and will it cure in these temperatures?

------------------
Dave

www.ltlfrari.com

SMC Panel Adhesive

I'd just use some tiger hair and them follow it up with a little body filler, Primer, paint and your good to go.

Only use SMC panel filler/adhesive. Other fillers will not stick as well.
You need to grind out the gouges with a 24 grit disc, use the SMC shtuff to fill as you would any filler.
~ Paul
aka "Tha Driver"

Fear of heights is illogical. Fear of falling, on the other hand, is prudent & evolutionary.

I used the stuff recommended, and the body work showed through my paint. I used the same paint and primer on every panel, but the hood is where I can see the body work, and I used the SMC filler in a lot of places. Not sure what happened. I'll probably just get a different hood that doesn't need any work at all and repaint it.

Here's what I used:
3M Rigid Parts Repair

------------------

What you likely did was to not use Auto Glaze. It comes in a tube and goes on like toothpaste. It masks the line between the new and oldmaterial. I had no issue with the SMC Adhesive.

Hope this helps

Arn

a good filler/glue is 3m automix 8115 adhesive/panel bonding it is the replacment for smc glue i have been using it for a few years now w all the corvette resto's i do it is super strong stuff and sands nice too then use a high building filler primer over the whole hood and sand it w 220 grit paper on a random orbital palm sander it will give ya a really nice smooth finish and plenty of tooth for your paint to stick too! the glue is easy to use and u can use it to bond a bunch of other stuff too it sticks to just about anything!

quote Originally posted by Arns85GT: What you likely did was to not use Auto Glaze. It comes in a tube and goes on like toothpaste. It masks the line between the new and oldmaterial. I had no issue with the SMC Adhesive. Hope this helps Arn

So are you saying that I should use this as well as the SMC adhesive?

------------------
Dave

www.ltlfrari.com

quote Originally posted by Arns85GT: What you likely did was to not use Auto Glaze. It comes in a tube and goes on like toothpaste. It masks the line between the new and oldmaterial. I had no issue with the SMC Adhesive. Hope this helps Arn

Do NOT use this shtuff on ANYTHING! It's 60 year old technology: all it really is, is lacquer primer in a very thick medium. It WILL shrink & show up later at best.
After filling an area with filler (be it SMC adhesive/filler on SMC or bondo on metal), You have to, of course, sand it smooth with a block of some sort to get the original shape. Start with 40 grit dry then final with 80 grit. Then I prime with PPG epoxy primer (for maximum adhesion) & then with a catalyst-hardened high-build primer. Block that primer down with 180 wet using a paint paddle or dense sponge pad (for curved areas). Use a flat black spray paint dusted on as a guide coat to make the imperfections easy to see. If you have imperfections, scratch them out with 80 grit (again for maximum adhesion) & fill them with a catalyst-hardened putty - I use Fiberglass Evercoat part number 416. Block that again starting with 80 grit dry & final sand with 180 wet or dry. Final prime with the PPG epoxy primer. You can paint right over the epoxy, but for best results sand with 400 wet before painting with base/clear. Again use a flat black spray paint dusted on as a guide coat to make any imperfections easy to see - sand untill they are gone.
If you want to skip sanding the epoxy final sand the high-build & putty down with 320 wet or 180 dry.
HTH,
~ Paul
aka "Tha Driver"

"Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end." - R. J. Wiedemann LtCol. USMC Ret

There is absolutely nothing wrong with Auto Glaze when used as it is intended and not as quick filler. My seams look completely professional and I use it. The key is to get your SMC joint smooth with sanding. You then spread Auto Glaze thinly over the joint area. This is just a whole lot quicker and better than multiple sanding techniques. You can smooth it out and then do a wet 220 grit lightly and then a wet 400 grit sanding and you are done.

The epoxy building primers I have used and they create alot of work for no better result. It is ok for the supplier to sell you the epoxy primers and putty but he is also selling you more product to sand it out. It is way more expensive than using standard SMC and Auto Glaze. It is also way more work. Don't get me wrong, to each his own, but I have epoxy primer sitting on my shelf and it will continue to sit there until my executor has a garage sale.

Arn

I agree to using SMC filler. You must grind off all the paint underneath it. This is prob why you got the repair outline. Never put any kind of filler over paint.... **exception....

I dont think he was referring to the old nick n chip tube putty. You can use ** Glazing Filler (aka as Pirana, Finishing Glaze/ blending putty). This is in a can or tube and you must add hardener. The surface being repaired does NOT need ground to get all the paint off, it only needs surface sanded with #180 sandpaper to stick. Its great for filling minor damage such as scrapes, door dings, hail dents, etc. You just sand, apply, sand smooth and primer. It doesnt leave a ring around the repair. Its very easy to sand. I personally use Evercoat Metal Glaze pt # 100416. Why its named that I have no idea, it has no metal and does not need to be applied on metal. I use it on any car surface, fiberglass, SMC, metal, aluminum. I even use it for a topcoat over places repaired with regular body filler because it does not pinhole or show thru paint. I use it extensively on Corvettes here in my shop. Body shops generally refer to it as ' icing '.

------------------

Owner / Operator Custom Paint and Body...
specializing in Corvette & Higher End Autos for 40+ years
Ferrari, Mercedes and Porsche Body Repair Approved
____________________________________________

toys: '66 custom Dodge 'Super Bee'
'92 rare Firebird T/A conv of 1325..FOR SALE

[This message has been edited by rogergarrison (edited 01-08-2010).]

quote Originally posted by Fiero_Adam: I used the stuff recommended, and the body work showed through my paint. I used the same paint and primer on every panel, but the hood is where I can see the body work, and I used the SMC filler in a lot of places. Not sure what happened. I'll probably just get a different hood that doesn't need any work at all and repaint it. Here's what I used: 3M Rigid Parts Repair

did you wet sand between primer and paint

Always a good practice to wet sand before paint. The wet sanding will identify any irregularities in the primer coat so you can deal with them before the base coat. I wet sand before glazing, before primer, and before base coat. I use 400 grit on the primer if the finish has no obvious flaws.

Arn

quote Originally posted by Arns85GT: It comes in a tube and goes on like toothpast.

This sounds like non-catalyst laquer putty to me.

quote Originally posted by Arns85GT: There is absolutely nothing wrong with Auto Glaze when used as it is intended and not as quick filler. My seams look completely professional and I use it. The key is to get your SMC joint smooth with sanding. You then spread Auto Glaze thinly over the joint area. This is just a whole lot quicker and better than multiple sanding techniques. You can smooth it out and then do a wet 220 grit lightly and then a wet 400 grit sanding and you are done.

It was OK to use 50 years ago. It'll work fine if used as intended - for VERY SMALL scratches. One coat of primer will do the same thing. Anything thicker & it will NEVER DRY, & shrink/swell after you've painted. Edit: If you get the SMC filler "smooth with sanding", you won't need any putty...

quote Originally posted by Arns85GT: The epoxy building primers I have used and they create alot of work for no better result. It is ok for the supplier to sell you the epoxy primers and putty but he is also selling you more product to sand it out. It is way more expensive than using standard SMC and Auto Glaze. It is also way more work. Don't get me wrong, to each his own, but I have epoxy primer sitting on my shelf and it will continue to sit there until my executor has a garage sale. Arn

A lot of work to do it RIGHT. Something that will last DECADES & not shrink or swell with age. Your choice.
~ Paul
aka "Tha Driver"

NBA player in an interview (real) talking about how he can dribble with either hand: "Yeah, I be amphibious all my life".

[This message has been edited by Tha Driver (edited 01-08-2010).]

Paul, maybe you haven't used Auto Glaze. Maybe your shop teacher didn't have it when you went through school. The auto paint suppliers still sell it and it is commonly used.

It doesn't shrink, it doesn't crack. I even use it on custom guitars, when finishing them with metallic paints to cover any pitting in the wood or to take out irregularities from repairs. I think you don't know the product, or else you simply don't know how to use it. We can spend alot on body work, or we can spend a little less. But, you need your facts straight. Either system works, the Auto Glaze is just less expensive and quicker. Sorry to disagree.

Arn

I too have no use for epoxy or 2 part primers. They have always gotten me in huge problems. Everyone knows how I feel about them so no need to go over it all again. Ive used laquer primer for 40 years and have had very few problems. My paint jobs lasted for 20 years and more looking brand new. Cars I painted locally in late 80s are still winning car shows. I wish EPA would have minded their own business and I would still be using laquer if it was up to me. You still have to wet sand afterward and buff to get a nice job so you dont gain a thing except your not polluting trees. There are so many things you can do with laquer that wont work with newer paint.

I prefer to ALWAYs dry sand myself, I can see what Im doing, where water just hides it and makes a mess. No matter how much you dry it out afterward, you will always have a bead of water come out of hiding while your putting your last coat of clear on, lol. On primer, I use a spray can of contrasting paint to dust on the top of it so I can tell if there are any flaws in the primer you wouldnt see with water on it. The only reall benefit of wet sanding is it cuts down on dust in the shop and makes your sandpaper last longer. Dry sandpaper is dirt cheap. I buy a sleeve of 100 sheets of #400 for $12.00. Wet paper cost that for a dozen sheets. Ive gotten now to where I dry sand the final clearcoat to prep for buffing. I do that with 1200 on a DA, and it buffs right up to glass.

quote Originally posted by Arns85GT: Paul, maybe you haven't used Auto Glaze. Maybe your shop teacher didn't have it when you went through school. The auto paint suppliers still sell it and it is commonly used. It doesn't shrink, it doesn't crack. I even use it on custom guitars, when finishing them with metallic paints to cover any pitting in the wood or to take out irregularities from repairs. I think you don't know the product, or else you simply don't know how to use it. We can spend alot on body work, or we can spend a little less. But, you need your facts straight. Either system works, the Auto Glaze is just less expensive and quicker. Sorry to disagree. Arn

I'm still not sure if you're talking about a catalyst-hardened putty or not. But if it's not, you shouldn't use it. There are much better products.
~ Paul
aka "Tha Driver"

Curiosity killed the cat but for a while I was the suspect.

No, it is not putty. It is glaze.

Arn

quote Originally posted by Arns85GT: No, it is not putty. It is glaze. Arn

Putty, glaze, - they're all generic terms. The question is whether or not it's catalyst-hardened.
~ Paul
aka "Tha Driver"

Glaze is formulated to go with your standard primer. It comes in primer red or green. It is the consistancy of toothpaste. It goes on very thin and relatively smooth.

Technically you can paint right over it because it gives full adhesion. It sands out easily though and you are well advised to put some primer over it to check for evenness. When using regular primer it is a very good touch up media. A lot of guys sand and prime and then go around the car with Auto Glaze and use it for a final smoothing, then re-prime. Good stuff.

BTW when I repaint Arns85GT it will be with Duplicolor which is a lacquer. For home paint jobs, laquer is hard to beat. It is easy to amend if you make a mistake, and comes up a rich color. No fancy chemicals.

I use laquer for my custom guitars too. Both clear and color. Hope this explains it better.

Arn

[This message has been edited by Arns85GT (edited 01-09-2010).]

quote Originally posted by Arns85GT: Paul, maybe you haven't used Auto Glaze. Maybe your shop teacher didn't have it when you went through school. The auto paint suppliers still sell it and it is commonly used.

I went to body school when I was 18. I dropped out 'cause I knew more than the instructors! (that was 1971) So I'm a body school dropout.
I HAVE used Laquer putty/glaze 40 years ago. Even then people had no idea how to use it. If you put it on more than paper thin it WILL NOT DRY.

quote Originally posted by Arns85GT: Glaze is formulated to go with your standard primer. It comes in primer red or green. It is the consistancy of toothpaste. It goes on very thin and relatively smooth. Technically you can paint right over it because it gives full adhesion. It sands out easily though and you are well advised to put some primer over it to check for evenness. When using regular primer it is a very good touch up media. A lot of guys sand and prime and then go around the car with Auto Glaze and use it for a final smoothing, then re-prime. Good stuff. BTW when I repaint Arns85GT it will be with Duplicolor which is a lacquer. For home paint jobs, laquer is hard to beat. It is easy to amend if you make a mistake, and comes up a rich color. No fancy chemicals. I use laquer for my custom guitars too. Both clear and color. Hope this explains it better. Arn

Nothing wrong with using laquer. Back when I first started painting - in the late '60s/early '70s - I used it on all the show cars I did. That was long before they came out with urethanes & base/clear.
Still you have not said if the putty you're using is catalyst-hardened. With all the talk about laquer, I'm assuming it's not, so I'll stand by my original statement & say do NOT use that putty/glaze on ANYTHING - especially for the beginer. Even if I did a laquer job today, I would prep it right using modern technology: PPG epoxy primer & only catalyst-hardened products up to the point I sprayed the laquer color. The paintjob will last much longer that way.
Base/clear is just as easy to shoot as laquer. It IS harder to buff out, as you have to use much finer sandpaper before buffing (I used 600 wet before buffing out laquer back in the day). But it WILL last longer than laquer, so it's worth the extra effort.
Later,
~ Paul
aka "Tha Driver"

If you haven't seen the future, you're not going fast enough! - Christian Von Coenigsegg

I just completed painting an electric guitar body in metallic gun metal grey. Primer, glaze, primer, color in lacquer, clear coat in laquer. Looking good. Same as doing a car but more finicky. I guess to each his own.

Arn

quote Originally posted by Arns85GT: I just completed painting an electric guitar body in metallic gun metal grey. Primer, glaze, primer, color in lacquer, clear coat in laquer. Looking good. Same as doing a car but more finicky. I guess to each his own. Arn

Yeah, except you don't leave a guitar out in the weather.

I can find car bodies in the junkyard from the 50s in laquer that if the sun hasnt baked it off or panel hasnt rusted away, the paint will polish right back up. While newer basecoats are better, older ones dont last 10 years. How many 80s cars (even Fieros) have even decent original paint. Oriental furniture done in laquer is usually still in good condition 500 years later (granted not outdoors...but still). And basecoats, even today, are primarily laquer if you compare the labels. The only ones not are basecoats that use catylast. Its only the clearcoat that is catylized urathane enamel. I dont even know offhand any basecoat systems that use catylast in the basecolor. Thats the reason you see so many delaminations where the clear is peeling off the color coat...the clear urathane they used to use didnt bond to the laquer based basecoat colors. On smaller repair jobs, I even use laquer clearcoat over the basecoat color instead of urathane. Works just fine. I have a lot of Corvette customers that want laquer finishes like they had. You have to use basecoat colors, since laquer generally is not available, followed by laquer clear. A few I know of are still perfect after many years.

------------------

Owner / Operator Custom Paint and Body...
specializing in Corvette & Higher End Autos for 40+ years
Ferrari, Mercedes and Porsche Body Repair Approved
____________________________________________

toys: '66 custom Dodge 'Super Bee'
'92 rare Firebird T/A conv of 1325..FOR SALE

u can use catalyst in chroma base it helps w the clear stickin to it, 1 ounce of Chroma Premier 12305S activtor to quart mixture w basemaker thinner ive done this w it and works pretty nice i also use the reccomended chroma premier clear coat to go over it i like the stuff but is really picky w the primers u put under the base

[This message has been edited by jetsnvettes2000 (edited 01-10-2010).]

I used to use the red 'toothpaste' SPOT PUTTY many years ago really spread thin over areas with very minor imperfections and pinholes. Yes it did bleed back up thru the finish later on in some cases. The very first car I ever owned that I did a paint job on was a 50 Plymouth. I took off all the chrome side moldings and had no clue how to do anything. I used the spot putty to fill in the mounting holes, lol. It actually stayed in for the few years I had the car.

I primarily use BASF/R&M and Glasurit basecoats with Limco urathane clear and get usually excellent matches. For those not so critical like a used car dealers, I use SW Dimension 4 basecoat and their clear. For a job like a company work truck, I use uncatylized Dimension 2 single stage AE. I wont ever use overpriced stuff like PPG or Dupont unless a customer specifies it. To me thats like paying a Cadillac price for a Cobalt. I use laquer thinner to reduce basecoats because it dries dustfree faster and bites the primer better. The clears I use are only clear and hardener and use no reducer. Fooses shop also uses the same products I do, but I beat him by 20 years, lol.

------------------

Owner / Operator Custom Paint and Body...
specializing in Corvette & Higher End Autos for 40+ years
Ferrari, Mercedes and Porsche Body Repair Approved
____________________________________________

toys: '66 custom Dodge 'Super Bee'
'92 rare Firebird T/A conv of 1325..FOR SALE

Just for the record (not any kind of argument), I use:
Dupont Nason base & clear for everyday street cars like my BMW (on top of the PPG epoxy primer). http://angelonearth.net/BMW.html
On my really nice cars, & the ones I paint for other folks, I use either top-of-the-line PPG base/clear or Sikkens. I've found them both to be much more durable than anything else: the Sikkens a little more so than the PPG (but it costs $450 just for the clear).
As for Foose, I don't get how he ever got so much press. All he does is bolt on a bunch of aftermarket parts (Speed parts, suspension, big wheels, stereos), & paint them in two-tones (with very little imagination). I'd hardly consider him a great customizer (or car builder).
Roger: using laquer primer I'm not surprised base color w/laquer thinner will bite in better for you. I'd bet you still get nowhere near the adhesion as the folks using PPG epoxy primer. Not saying it doesn't adhere adequately enough...
~ Paul
aka "Tha Driver"

Hey look! My alphabet soup spelled out "ooooooo".
You idiot: you're eating Cheerios!

Adheres good enough... Ive never had anything peel even if its many years old any better is just overkill. I guarantee my jobs to original owners as long as he owns the car except for rust. My primer is polyester Acrylic Laquer Primer/ Surfacer... so polyester basecoat sticks to it just fine. Ive even done boat hulls the same way. Its really not important what its thinned with if it dont attack the surface or curdle. The thinner or reducer is just a way to thin out the paint for spraying and evaporates anyway leaving only the paint.

There is another trick you can do with lacquer paint jobs. If a lacquer base/clear coat gets weathered due to neglect, you can clean it thoroughly, do a light sand to get atmospheric contaminents out of it. Then apply clear lacquer right over it. Even years later, the new lacquer will bond with the old lacquer. If fact, on a plain lacquer paint job, you can do a color change by just sanding it out and painting right over with new color laquer.

I used to ride motorcycle and there are alot of lacquer gas tanks. It can be damaged with gas so you need a rag to fill your tank, however, if it needs touch up, it is a snap. You can't do this with urethane finishes.

My Fiero has Nason on it right now. I found that paint was relatively unforgiving to put on the car. It is almost impossible to do a perfect "patch" on it without painting the whole panel. I am definitely going back to my tried and true lacquer. I am still considering a color change but I just can't make up my mind.

Arn

man you three guys NEED to combine this knowledge into a "body work" thread!
PLEASE!! This is very good stuff for the Fiero community and with the three of ya'll it should be a very heavy topic for everyone to learn from, to get more educated about the componets of our cars.
no flames just knowledge...

What do you three ( Roger, Arns, Tha Driver) think about that??

Yes, Ive seen many cleared laquer jobs crack around the gas filler....cold, gasoline and laquer do not play friendly with each other.

I agree that one of the best qualities of laquer is the ability to easily blend in new paint to old, even if its 50 years old. I never even try to blend basecoat/ clearcoats. I ALWAYS scuff a whole panel and tape it off. Then I WILL blend on the basecoat color followed by clearing the whole panel. Its done and you have a perfect job every time. I heard quite a few people here and in person say they can blend in urathane clears. Since its calylized and rock hard, I dont see how you can possibly 'soften' it back up to blend in where its impossible to see. I have seen jobs other shops have blended and I can spot it 100' away. Its created a new term in the body and paint shop industry.....' its good enough to get by with '. It looks fine for a few weeks after they pick up the car, but quickly dulls out around the edges and poolishing it just starts cutting off the blend leaving an actual ring around the repair. I dont do work like that, it has to be as good or better than original if thats what you pay for. If that means I have to clear 2 quarter panels and a roof to repair a quarter panel because there are no break lines, so be it. It will always look right. You can even take a 40 year old can of rock hard laquer, let it set with thinner for a while and mix it right back up to spray.

Theres no point in creating a painting thread, because no two painters will ever totally agree to anything. You can see that just by reading books on painting. I only pass on what has or has not worked specificly for me. You can take it or leave it. Ive been doing this since 1962. About the only one ive run into here that follows my same methods almost completely, is Mark (firefox). While others may have great success doing something differently their way, I does not mean either one is the RIGHT or WRONG way in most cases. Some will say some things are way outdated or not the latest tech. I just answer that with 'were still driving around in basicly 100 year old technology ' every day .........arent we.

[This message has been edited by rogergarrison (edited 01-12-2010).]

quote Originally posted by rogergarrison: ........Theres no point in creating a painting thread, because no two painters will ever totally agree to anything. You can see that just by reading books on painting. I only pass on what has or has not worked specificly for me. You can take it or leave it. Ive been doing this since 1962. About the only one ive run into here that follows my same methods almost completely, is Mark (firefox). While others may have great success doing something differently their way, I does not mean either one is the RIGHT or WRONG way in most cases. Some will say some things are way outdated or not the latest tech. I just answer that with 'were still driving around in basicly 100 year old technology ' every day .........arent we.

I stopped posting advice about painting because I had individuals with little or no experience post after me and offer what I felt was very poor and completely wrong advice. I'm not going to get into a pissing match with someone about methods and opinions so I gave up. Roger and I are pretty much in agreement and have complemented each other for a number of years on here but even we have different thoughts on a couple of things. We come from different backgrounds but have pretty much the same experience. Our goal has always been to help our fellow members by offering the best methods we can for those that don't know how to do anything to paint their cars. We know what works and what is a dangerous ( for the pocketbook ) choice for someone that has never touched a spray gun. We want all you guys and gals to have the best looking cars on the road and offering bad advice does not help that goal. In some cases it's better to suggest that you go ahead and prep the car but take it to a local MAACO or somewhere else for paint. In some cases it's better to start over with a new set of body panels. In some cases the project owner is more than able to do the job himself and use the advice as it's offered and end up with a really nice outcome. In some cases the project comes out really bad and needs to be redone. That's where the problems really cost the owner. Paint isn't cheap, even if you get the cheapest stuff around you're still spending a couple of hundred dollars for materials and after a botched paint job that paint needs to come off so you can start over. That gets expensive and time consuming. That's also a failure in my book if I offered advice for that work. What's really bad is when someone posts ' I'm not a painter but this is what I heard '...............

There are differences of opinion. There are different methods. There are different products. There are different results. There are different goals. Balance them out and do what's best for the customer. Some of the products out there are 100 year old technology but they still work. I still want to help but I'm not going to get into any pissing matches. My advice is free and freely offered but I'm not going to fight to get my advice out there. I've got enough to worry about.

Mark the paint guy

I understand what you two are saying and I do agree with you both about the pissing match that seems to go on in every thread.
I also understand that everyone does it differently. good and bad should be in the same thread as well , just with the maturity of grownups as some of us are.
What about a list of " things I use when painting", with part # or a web site to find said "good products"? Can we ask Cliff to make it like a "sticky" and lock it out<?

The real problem I have( and it may only be ME) is that I can do the body work to a point to where no cracks show up or I get things smooth. It is the paint, the mixing and spraying the different types of paint. Not only the base coat/clear coat or laquer or urathane but the house of colors or pinstripping yourself.

Let's make it simple. ONLY the adhesives, NO sandpaper!( they can figure that out OR make another seperate list for that and paints as well.

You guys have done a very good job trying to explain you take on all of the paint and bodyworking. + to you all !!

I really don't want to have to go back years and years to gather all the info. right or wrong it is ALL usefull ( I guess it also depends on who's answer YOU trust ) that part is sad.

so here is a start.... THIS IS ONLY AN EXAMPLE!!! ( I may have gotten something wrong on the list)

BODY WORK

SMC Panel adhesive = used for attaching, fixing ALL Fiero panels or adding on aftermarket parts
Fiberglass = for bonding all other fiberglass to fiberglass parts to each other
Tiger hair = ?
3M Automix 8115 = adhesive/ panel bonding
PPG Epoxy Primer = for final prep before paint
Auto Glaze = ?
Spot Putty = ?
Evercoat Metal Glaze putty (#100416) = ?


PAINT

SANDPAPER


So.................?? can this be done with the help of Cliff?? ( and all you guys?)

(believe me Firefox, I did mean to include you and your expertize on this subject, just didn't see ya)

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88 GT, 3800SC, Getrag 5sp. 12" Vette Rotors,Custom stuff done

[This message has been edited by revin (edited 01-12-2010).]

quote Originally posted by Arns85GT: There is another trick you can do with lacquer paint jobs. If a lacquer base/clear coat gets weathered due to neglect, you can clean it thoroughly, do a light sand to get atmospheric contaminents out of it. Then apply clear lacquer right over it. Even years later, the new lacquer will bond with the old lacquer. If fact, on a plain lacquer paint job, you can do a color change by just sanding it out and painting right over with new color laquer.

The reason you can do that is 'cause laquer will melt with just about ANY solvent.
You can do a color change by sanding & repainting ANY paint...

quote Originally posted by Arns85GT: I used to ride motorcycle and there are alot of lacquer gas tanks. It can be damaged with gas so you need a rag to fill your tank, however, if it needs touch up, it is a snap. You can't do this with urethane finishes.

And that proves my above statement. Laquer will melt with GAS.
You CAN touch up & blend in urethanes, if you know what you're doing.

quote Originally posted by Arns85GT: My Fiero has Nason on it right now. I found that paint was relatively unforgiving to put on the car. It is almost impossible to do a perfect "patch" on it without painting the whole panel. I am definitely going back to my tried and true lacquer. I am still considering a color change but I just can't make up my mind. Arn

Base/clear is just as easy as laquer to shoot, if you take your time. Any mistake you make in the base can be sanded & blended back in, in a shorter time than laquer. Any mistake in clear can be sanded & buffed out. Even BAD mistakes if you put enough clear on it.
I repeat: You CAN touch up & blend in urethanes, if you know what you're doing. I've offered the technique here before, but some folks are too scared to try it. Instead they charge the insurance companies to paint 1/2 the car, for a small dent in one 1/4 panel - increasing insurance costs for everyone.

quote Originally posted by rogergarrison: Yes, Ive seen many cleared laquer jobs crack around the gas filler....cold, gasoline and laquer do not play friendly with each other. (snip) I agree that one of the best qualities of laquer is the ability to easily blend in new paint to old, even if its 50 years old. I never even try to blend basecoat/ clearcoats. I ALWAYS scuff a whole panel and tape it off. Then I WILL blend on the basecoat color followed by clearing the whole panel. Its done and you have a perfect job every time. (snip) If that means I have to clear 2 quarter panels and a roof to repair a quarter panel because there are no break lines, so be it. It will always look right. You can even take a 40 year old can of rock hard laquer, let it set with thinner for a while and mix it right back up to spray.

I rest my case.
I too see where other shops have tried to blend in ALL KINDS of paint. They don't care enough to spend the time to get it right.
The manufacturers of urethanes make "blending agent" SPECIFICALLY to blend in their urethanes. In spite of the hardness, there are SOME CHEMICALS that soften it enough to melt in the new clear - especially if you sand it with 1000 as I've outlined in my other posts.
When I say "to do it RIGHT", I'm referring to making a super slick paint job that will LAST the longest possible amount of time, even if left out in the weather with no wax or maintenance. The most chip-resistant, UV resistant, durable paint job you can get. That's the situation with most folk's cars: they don't have garages to keep them in & drive them in all kinds of weather & on all kinds of streets. In order to get that you need the best materials, starting from the first coat of primer to the last coat of clear.
I've done laquer jobs back in the day that lasted years on the street & still won awards in shows - but they were cared for. Ignore a laquer job & leave it out in the weather & it will either/or/and crack, fade, peel, & just generally fall apart after a few years.
Not only that, but urethanes (& PPG epoxy primers), in spite of being harder, are more flexible than laquer - which also adds to their durability & chip resistance. That also reduces the likeliness of cracking on flexible bumpers & plastic parts. Gee I wonder how many panels on a Fiero are made of flexible materials?
Edit:

quote Originally posted by Firefox: There are different goals.

Therein lies the difference. Most shops just want to put out the job quickly as possible & collect the money. Others take more time, but shortcut the cost of materials (for apparently several different reasons). My goal is to PRESERVE the car & have it look the BEST it can for as LONG AS POSSIBLE.
~ Paul
aka "Tha Driver"

Scientists say we only use 20% of our brains. But if they're only using 20%, how would they know?

[This message has been edited by Tha Driver (edited 01-12-2010).]

Because Id guess there are a dozen or fewer professional car painter and body men on here. 2 out of 12 is not bad. As I said everyone has their own way to do things. I didnt say the other 10 were doing it wrong, just that they arrive at same results a bit differently.

Ive tried these expensive blending solvents and even had their manufacturer reps come in and demonstrate how its done on a customer car. I assume a paint manufacturer would have properly trained personnel to demo their products. So far none of them did a blend job to my satisfaction, it didnt take long for the blend to resurface. Of the two factory demos I had done, I followed the car condition since they were regular repeat customers. In both cases I had to redo them by painting the whole panel anyway in the end. I use about mid quality (just for sake of argument) BASF primarily, because its 1/2 of Dupont or PPG prices and lasts extremely well. My Ferrari kit was my sole car and daily driver for over 5 years. I drove it in summer, winter, snow, ice, blizzards, rain, parked under trees full of sap and birds, salt, and even had a car back clear up 1/2 way up the hood. My paint was still show quality when I sold it. I didnt even have to repaint the hood. Sanded and buffed it out with nearly no damage at all. All my cars always got similar treatment and results. My AMG Mercedes was painted 11 years and I put 250,000 miles on it. I sold it at least 10 years ago and it still looks brand new. I would hardly say that was kept out of the weather and pampered. Right now 3 of my collector cars are in the yard buried in snow and ice. They usually only come in the garage when Im doing something to them. So none of my cars are in any way pampered other than I keep them clean. I dont even ever wax any of them. My cars care is soap and water, and an occasional polish. Right now I could go dig one out, wash it off, go to a show and take home a trophy.

One thing I am in total agreement with you on. Laquer is NOT flexible and dont work well on flexible body parts made of urathanes. It works just fine on SMC and ABS flexible panels. Any enamel type of paint will stay more flexible and stay on without cracking with proper prep. Put on too much basecoat/ clearcoat urathane and it WILL crack too. The whole trick to flexible parts is only using enough material to do the job. Its not something you put a 10 coat clearcoat job on. And to repeat myself, you CAN go in a junkyard and find 50s cars done in laquer that will polish up to look brand new if the metal underneath hasnt rotted away. Thats cars that have sat out in the weather for 50 years. You would be very lucky to find an 80s or even a 90s car in the yard with good paint still on it in basecoat/clearcoat. Ask how many of 13000 Fiero owners on here have even nice original paint without any clearcoat issues. Those that do are all extra low miles and/or kept in garages since new. My 70 New Yorker has good original paint, but it has been indoors last few years. Another Dodge friend picked up a 57 Dodge Coronet he found on a farm in Virginia. Hes not even going to paint it. Just needs buffed and polished and a few minor areas worked on....with original paint.

[This message has been edited by rogergarrison (edited 01-12-2010).]

quote Originally posted by Tha Driver: Gee; I wonder why that is on a forum with over 13,000 users?... ~ Paul aka "Tha Driver"

insult accepted.

quote Originally posted by Firefox: insult accepted.

I just meant that no one else is using laquer primer & paint for a reason. Several reasons, actually...