Hey everyone.. Have had my '84 2M4 for about 15 years now but would rarely drive it due to oil being blown up into the air filter and dripping on the belt which causes an embarrassing squeal intermittently, and the check engine light to come on sporadically. I'm at the point now where I'm getting ready to have the engine rebuilt after having it checked and being informed of 'blow by' caused by what is apparently low pressure from a bad ring in one of the four cylinders. At least that is what the mechanic told me. I'm not very knowledgeable when it comes to engines - I leave that stuff to the guys who know what they are doing.

That being said, I need some advice on getting this job done. I want to do whatever possible to make this engine run the best that it can and I'm not really looking to dump a ton of money into upgrading to a larger engine or modifying, but I WOULD like to get the most bang for my buck here. I don't mind spending a little more now while they have it stripped down to ensure the longevity or boost performance. I guess what I am asking is if there are certain components that I should request that the rebuilder use when they go to do this job ? Aside from replacing things that I know will probably break after the rebuild - i.e. : alternator, water pump, motor and trans mounts, fuel filter and belts - is there anything specific I should request in the way that they rebuild my motor or any other procedured that I should nip in the bud while they have the motor out?

I got a few weeks before I actually take it in. Anyone who is knowledgeable in this area and cares to chime in ? Your knowledge is greatly appreciated.

[This message has been edited by flexxmi (edited 04-04-2010).]

i gotta duke too make sure u post everything u do so i know some good things to do to mine thanx

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Check rebuild "long block" or even a crate at auto store and Jasper, etc, before you rebuild yourself...

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Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should.
(Jurassic Park)

The Ogre's Fiero Cave (It's also at the top of every forum page...)

Yea, Ogre might be right it's a lot of work but I did it DIY and I am pleased. One thing to be sure to do is all the performance mods...
Pistons enlarged
performance cam
gasket match porting of the head and both manifolds
engine paint
engine bay cleanup
exhaust system clean up new cat or omit
do these things and general happiness will result

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84 Duke, Holley TBI, Manual Trans 4.10, CompuCam, White

Short block http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymot...fPartsQ5fAccessories

Long block http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymot...5fAccessoriesQ5fGear

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My World of Wheels Winners (Click on links below)

3.4L Supercharged 87 GT and Super Duty 4 Indy #163

just take out the duke altogether and replace it with a 2.4 twin cam from a z24 cavalier 1999 to 2002 NOT the quad 4 those suck. you cant argue with a 170 hp 4 banger for the same amount of money as it would take to rebuild the duke.

[This message has been edited by lutraphobic (edited 04-05-2010).]

quad 4 does not suck.

quad 4 LD2 does infact suck the balls its a horrible motor which is why it only was only in the the z24 in 95 if i remember correctly. all i remember is they had a horrible rep with the cavalier i just looked up the motor on wiki and fomr what was said on there it was a good motor but what can i say i just remember it being crap.

[This message has been edited by lutraphobic (edited 04-05-2010).]

quote Originally posted by lutraphobic: ... but what can i say i just remember it being crap.

Unfortunately, that's also how lots people remember the Fiero

An 84' Duke eh? Well, good. You have a nice platform for modifacation.
First, the 84' was the first year for the fiero, and so it was the most undeveloped in every way.
And personally it is an easy first project and a great first project to use as a learning tool; I have already overhauled one of my Dukes already, and I had the same things in mind as you.

I must state that the biggest way to save money is to do it yourself, like me. Otherwise you can dump all of your your burdon on the guys at the local machine shop! XD (and of course the only thing I did was tear apart and re-assemble the engine with new gaskets)
You said you wanted your engine rebuilt; I however, "overhauled" my duke only replacing what needed to be.
rebuilding takes alot more money than an overhaul and if your bill exeeds 600 I would just recomend swapping engines
(the cost of a used GM 2.5 is about 600+ from a salvage yard with a 90 day warrantee)

If I remember correctly you want a good and reliable engine while getting the most bang for your buck.
I recommend you at least have the following done:

1.) Have a machine shop magnaflux the, head, block, and connecting rods. (checking for fractures)(you can have the intake and
exaust checked, but those don't usually fracture unless alot of stress was involved aka. a crash or overtightening)
- if everything is A-OK then proceed... otherwise replace parts as needed.
2.) Port and Polish your duke's intake, head, and exaust. (this is a must for any duke)
3.) Also get a "valve-job" done to your head.
4.) Have the Block and Head resurfaced if it is not within specification.
5.) Get your cylinder bores re-honed (if not planning to overbore) (this could have also been part of the blow-by problem).
6.) Bore out and smooth some of the intake under the throttle body (increases flow, and compliments the Port and Polish).
7.) Have your Crankshaft checked and balanced (you may need different size crank bearings if they mill your crank).
8.) Upgrade the ignition coil to afermarket (Accel or MSD) (don't worry they are stock replacements).
9.) Premium Lubricants (Royal Purple or Mobil 1 synthetics).

The above stated will give you a nice boost in power, without breaking your bank. It was estimated by my machinist to be about 500 to have all the above work done (minus teardown and final assembly), not bad considering you will have a product that will perform way better than a new iron duke from 84'.
(By the way did I mention the time of another person on your project is your money? diy is best)

Not mentioned earlier were things you can get/do to get more out of your duke than what is usually thought of.
Hotter Camshhaft $200-250
Oversized pistons $200
Offset grinding the Crankshaft and connecting rods with matched bearings $200
Roller Bearings (everywhere) along with the timing chain* $500
integrated ignition control (msd 6A with a beefy coil) $300
Trick Spark plugs (E3, splitfire, etc.) could be up to a $100 depending on plougs
Re-enforced components (block, pistons, connecting rods, cam, bolts, puch rods).
The re-enforced block itself is $10,000

I hope I was of some help.
BTW that last part was there for shock value to give an example of the more hard core things that people can do.

DO NOT USE synthetic oil when "breaking in a new motor ! Dukes do not HAVE a timing chain.- Trick spark plugs are a waste of money,- use AC Delco.Use BRASS Freeze plugs.- on a 1984 engine, I'd "Change" the connecting RODS, they were known to Fail. -If the cylinders are OK, Re-Ring it after Honing. I Always have the crank "Re-Done" & use Clevite "Tri Metal Bearings", that way there is No Question, it IS "done right". Use sealer on the threads of the Head Bolts. definitely install new "water pump" & belts, Hoses, while the engines out.

quote Originally posted by flexxmi: Hey everyone.. Have had my '84 2M4 for about 15 years now but would rarely drive it due to oil being blown up into the air filter and dripping on the belt which causes an embarrassing squeal intermittently, and the check engine light to come on sporadically. I'm at the point now where I'm getting ready to have the engine rebuilt after having it checked and being informed of 'blow by' caused by what is apparently low pressure from a bad ring in one of the four cylinders. At least that is what the mechanic told me. I'm not very knowledgeable when it comes to engines - I leave that stuff to the guys who know what they are doing. That being said, I need some advice on getting this job done. I want to do whatever possible to make this engine run the best that it can and I'm not really looking to dump a ton of money into upgrading to a larger engine or modifying, but I WOULD like to get the most bang for my buck here. I don't mind spending a little more now while they have it stripped down to ensure the longevity or boost performance. I guess what I am asking is if there are certain components that I should request that the rebuilder use when they go to do this job ? Aside from replacing things that I know will probably break after the rebuild - i.e. : alternator, water pump, motor and trans mounts, fuel filter and belts - is there anything specific I should request in the way that they rebuild my motor or any other procedured that I should nip in the bud while they have the motor out? I got a few weeks before I actually take it in. Anyone who is knowledgeable in this area and cares to chime in ? Your knowledge is greatly appreciated.

If I were you, I would be rebuilding this engine myself. This is one of the simplest engines out there.

At any rate, when you do get into the engine,
1) Put in 1987 or later model crank and rods.

2) If you grabbed yourself a 1985 or 1986 engine as a starting point to rebuild, you could keep driving your car while getting a new engine ready.
The 1985 and 1986 engines are a direct swap, but have roller lifters. The only thing you'll have to do is swap over the 1984 distributor (different connector) and a couple of temp sensors from the old engine that have different connectors.

If you are interested in tackling this yourself, PM me. I've been through a number of 2.5s, and I can answer any questions you might have through the process.

Oh yeah, another thing. When removing the head, take the center head bolt on the exhaust side out first. Its the hardest to get out and occasionally breaks. Once you get it out, its all downhill from there.

DUKE Perfomance FANS..I ran into Dale from Bow Tie ,many years as a Pontiac line mechanic ,when Thefiero came out ,,also ran into an old duke racer, the one who built my screaming GT duke ,my first Fiero in the same week,, there word s about the Duke performance were enlightninng,, I had forgotten..
DROP a late model duke engine 91 or 92 make sure the blocknumbers are correct,, the power is in the head ,,do not port it,, just install a set performance rockers or roller rockers ,free flow exhaust with turbo muffler,,the new turbo,s out perform the straight thru glass packs ,you will be amazed at the performance increace..
...Just leave the bottom end stock,but make sure the components are up to spec ,,If you have some electrical competence run the 91 ,92 ecm
droping in another engine,,the oldsmobile 2.3 OHC or an ecotect is real gearhead stuff keep it simple ..
Pull the duke out the top,just the engine
You could also install an 87,88 fiero duke and install the 91,92 head the S10 has the correct head bolt holes
,,,..Most swap attemps unless done by determined gear head end up incomplete,,Keep it simple
There have to be late model fiero 87,88 blocks available on this forum
....If you pull the engine,worth it to swap for the late model with the improved head
CHECK OUT,, Quieting a Duke Engine on this page

[This message has been edited by uhlanstan (edited 04-05-2010).]

Thanks for your input, everybody. It's a LOT of information to swallow, and I think some of you misunderstood what I had written. I intend to farm this job out to a shop because I have neither the knowledge nor the techincal skills nor the equipment to do this job myself. I will have to contact the shop I had originally planned to give the work to and see if they have the ability to perform the work you have all suggested. If not, I will have to go elsewhere.

I think if you are paying a shop to do everything, this is going to cost you a pretty penny. If you are already spending a nice stack of cash, why not just upgrade to one of the more popular swaps? Even upgrading to a v6 from a stock GT would be a big improvement. Or, better yet, a 4.9. I just don't understand why you would put so much money into a stock duke. A turbo SD...I could understand...

I have no idea what I'm doing. That is why I have asked for everyone's suggestions and advice. I don't know what my options are and I haven't asked the shop I was planning to take it to if they even do conversion/swap work. Can I put a bigger engine in this car without any modifications to the car itself? I have less than novice skills and knowledge. Be patient with me as I learn.

[This message has been edited by flexxmi (edited 04-05-2010).]

I think it would be in your best interest to look into a 2.8/3.1/3.4 swap, because it should be a pretty straight forward swap. I think it would be even better to look into a 4.9 Cadillac swap. As I recall, that is a well documented swap. There are companies that specialize in doing Fiero related work, especially swaps. If you decide to do the duke, then there is some very good advice here, but I think you should at the very least look into swaps and weigh the cost/benefit of a swap vs a rebuild of your duke.

...If you are not mechanically inclined,the best and cheapest way to gain power is buy a V6 Fiero,No CONTEST.Fiero,s are cheap,,swap the easilly removed stuff from the old car into the new car
Swaps are motor/gear head stuff,,do not attemp yourself unless you want hard education
The only low price swap at a Garage is to transfer a similar motor into your car,,even swaping a later model Duke with the improved head & coil/module direct ignition system would be expensive
... It takes time to build mechanical skills ,and to build up tool supply
... If you want to start learning ?? A great place to start is the DUKE head ,,This is one of the easiest HEADs to pull from the block of any car.. you rebuild the head and have the Garage install a rebuilt block

You are going to do the quick cheap valve regrind cost about $50.00
Pull the head ,after reading the service manual (haynes best for beginner) & reading related topics on this forum have car towed to Garage to replace short Block..OR have garage pull engine ,you pick up head do service and return for Garage to install..
Clean head using dish washing soap and very hot water(I lay hose on ground to heat) ,and kerosine/fuel oil or gas & brake cleaner,,Use a carbon softner to remove Carbon,,Very carefully scrape cylinder head surface caaarefuuully.. check it with a Known flat surface like a Glass,, the duke is forgiving if a new Gasket is used
Rent or put deposit down on loaner Valve spring compressor ,have a box sectioned off for each valve & its matching parts ,,each valve push rod numbered
now reclean head ,any components that seem crap will show them self
BUY Valve grinding compound ,,buy valve suction tool to turn valves ,,You can do this with your fingers but the tool whick looks like the rubber cup tip on the childrens bow and arrows toy
ossilate valves with grinding compound on head seat ,DO NOT USE A DRILL MOTOR TO SPIN VALVES,,THE MANUAL will give you a guide as to the width of the seat,, you will know when you see ..
now clean up,remove all grinding compound reinstall,, using old valve springs clips retainers ,,BUT use new valve seals from head or engine gasket.Eye ball springs to see if about the same height
...Take head to shop and they will install on crate engine ,,this skill will save you money thru out your life you can spend on Girls your mom warned you about ,booze gambling,wild partying ,drugs & extreme gerbil racing..
...If you Screw up the duke head is easy to remove & repair..
...rebuilding the duke is easy ,,getting it out of the car is the difficult part for beginners,,
.........concider having the oil pan removed and rings installed on the one bad piston..can not remember if you can remove pan on your car with out raising engine..

..With the help of this forum and a service manual you to can be come a gearhead ,a bit of dirt always under the nails.. Save the SWAPS for when you and your girl meet a really attractive ,other couple

[This message has been edited by uhlanstan (edited 04-05-2010).]

quote Originally posted by TommyRocker: I think it would be in your best interest to look into a 2.8/3.1/3.4 swap, because it should be a pretty straight forward swap. I think it would be even better to look into a 4.9 Cadillac swap. As I recall, that is a well documented swap. There are companies that specialize in doing Fiero related work, especially swaps. If you decide to do the duke, then there is some very good advice here, but I think you should at the very least look into swaps and weigh the cost/benefit of a swap vs a rebuild of your duke.

Tommy, someone has a brand new still in the crate 4.9 Cadillac V8 for under $800 in the area and I should probably jump on it if I'm going to have it put in my '84. Is there some way I can find a shop in my area willing to do the swap and go pick up the engine for me as well? How do I go about finding such a shop?

from what i read in this post he doesn't have the Knowledge to handle the swap or rebuild,
best for him to drop it off at archies,or other fiero shop

I'm on my phone, so I don't know your area, but you could probably get away with posting a gen. Fiero chat topic asking if anyone knows of a decent shop in your area. Get all the information you can before you make ýour decision. A swap will be more expensive than just a rebuild, no doubt about it, but since you are paying a shop all the labor on a rebuild, the price difference might well be worth it to get a superior engine.

1. NO skills/tools/place to work = big bucks. But if you have TIME, you can save a lot of $$. look on PFF for a good used engine from somebody that is swaping out a good duke. buy it. pay to ship it. or go get it. have a shop put it in. drive it.
2. you take it apart. Pull the head, have it done ( or buy a replacement ) at a machine shop. while the head is being done get the block out. Than do the block at the same machine shop. the block, crank, rods, pistons, cam, cam gears are a "short block". a long block is the short block with the head, lifters,valve train on or in it. They will need your old parts for a core. If you want to have a "numbers matching car" have them do your old engine. BUT nobody will give a damn about the numbers.

If you got 15 years out of a duke, ( and want 15 more years ) of under preforming ( but good mpg ) have a machine shop do it. they will bore it, grind it, put new parts in it because they have to fix it if they screw up. YOU can ask around to find a good one, ask people that race, who does their stuff. you find racers at a race track.

If you do it one peice at a time, it will spread out the money out lay in to smaller chunks.

remember, less time = more money.

before you turn a wrench, buy the BOOK ! ( and read it ! )

I have already resigned myself to having to spend some money to have this job done. Maybe I should just sell this car and buy one that's already fixed up and invest my money there instead since I don't have the means to do it myself.

A lot of people on here are telling you to do swaps.

You have admitted to being a novice. This means that in all likelihood, if you attempt a swap, you will get as far as taking the car apart, and then in a years' time you'll get lost and give up. As a novice, you also won't have a firm grasp on what a shop would need to do for a swap, nor will you have the ability to gauge the quality of their work.

Rebuilding the engine you have, however, is a fantastic introduction to the hobby, and it will give you just enough of a taste to be able to decide if this is something you really wanna dive deep into in the future.

There really isn't anything tricky at all about rebuilding your 2.5 liter engine. It can be done with patience, attention to detail, and basic hand tools. For reference, I did my first 2.5 when I was 16.

We can help you with anything you might need to know. Nobody will take more care in rebuilding your engine than you do.

quote Originally posted by KurtAKX: A lot of people on here are telling you to do swaps. You have admitted to being a novice. This means that in all likelihood, if you attempt a swap, you will get as far as taking the car apart, and then in a years' time you'll get lost and give up. As a novice, you also won't have a firm grasp on what a shop would need to do for a swap, nor will you have the ability to gauge the quality of their work. Rebuilding the engine you have, however, is a fantastic introduction to the hobby, and it will give you just enough of a taste to be able to decide if this is something you really wanna dive deep into in the future. There really isn't anything tricky at all about rebuilding your 2.5 liter engine. It can be done with patience, attention to detail, and basic hand tools. For reference, I did my first 2.5 when I was 16. We can help you with anything you might need to know. Nobody will take more care in rebuilding your engine than you do.

Need a job? I would tend to agree wholeheartedly with you about doing a job yourself and the quality of work. I just don't have the time, tools, patience or knowledge to do it and there's nothing I hate more than having to do a job twice because I screwed it up the first time - it's a pet peeve of mine. I'm better leaving it to someone who is knowledgable in this area or not having it done at all.

quote Originally posted by flexxmi: Need a job? I would tend to agree wholeheartedly with you about doing a job yourself and the quality of work. I just don't have the time, tools, patience or knowledge to do it and there's nothing I hate more than having to do a job twice because I screwed it up the first time - it's a pet peeve of mine. I'm better leaving it to someone who is knowledgeable in this area or not having it done at all.

Actually, I do need a job. I am an out-of-work engineer, but I am also credentialed (State of Michigan) as a master mechanic and specialty pre-1973 mechanic.

I'd rather teach a man to fish, than give him one, BUT if you are on the verge of giving the car up for something else, I can put a motor together for you. I do have a couple of roller-cam 85-86 "T" code long blocks kicking around that could be rebuilt, and IIRC I still have a NIB set of +.030 stock-style Iron Duke pistons in the basement. I'm out of late-model cranks and rods, so they'd have be scrounged up from somewhere.

Is your car an auto or 4 speed?

If you're seriously interested, I can prepare an itemized quote for you.

Yes, I am seriously interested, and it's an automatic.

Awesome! Kurt working on a Duke! I get the idea K really loves the engine even though he's working on some sort of swap. I think you will get one as good as they come!

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84 Duke, Holley TBI, Manual Trans 4.10, CompuCam, White

Having a Fiero enthusiast help set you up with good runing duke,, would definitely be the way to go,abig help in your situation

Got my vote

Here's my first whack at worst-case dollars for a pretty thorough rebuild to as-new. Depending on the condition of some things, and what your goals are, this can get either more expensive or cheaper. Sorry about the chintzy screen shots, I'm not sure of any other way to post spreadsheet outputs onto PFF at this time. If you give me your email, I can send you the sheet.

Machining Quote


Parts Quote


Labor Quote


Like I said, depending on your goals, this is all subject to change. Also, if you're able to get some of these items for cheaper, I always welcome that.

@ KurtAKX You have a PM.

quote Originally posted by KurtAKX: snip

Wanna do mine next?

Oh, and I'm glad to see that the yada yada yada is included in the install. That's the worst part

quote Originally posted by flexxmi: Hey everyone.. Have had my '84 2M4 for about 15 years now but would rarely drive it due to oil being blown up into the air filter and dripping on the belt which causes an embarrassing squeal intermittently, and the check engine light to come on sporadically. I'm at the point now where I'm getting ready to have the engine rebuilt after having it checked and being informed of 'blow by' caused by what is apparently low pressure from a bad ring in one of the four cylinders. At least that is what the mechanic told me. I'm not very knowledgeable when it comes to engines - I leave that stuff to the guys who know what they are doing.

rebuild the duke? F-that.....

buy a rebuilt one on ebay for $500

quote Originally posted by 86fierofun: Wanna do mine next? Oh, and I'm glad to see that the yada yada yada is included in the install. That's the worst part

Yeah, you know the yada yada yada. The part where the brittle, 25 year old coolant temp sensor connector breaks and you've gotta go get a new pigtail, or you put it back together to discover that the slave cylinder is leaking, or yada yada yada. You know there's always that something that adds hassle on the way back in with a 25 year old vehicle.

PMs replied to, and Lone Ranger emailed too.

Did someone really give you a quote of 60 bucks to remove the engine and 100 to reinstall it? I'm trying to figure out what is up with those numbers. Is this a high school shop class that is doing the work? Not sure who else would take on a job like this for pennies on the dollar of what the job will really cost.

quote Originally posted by edfiero: Did someone really give you a quote of 60 bucks to remove the engine and 100 to reinstall it? I'm trying to figure out what is up with those numbers. Is this a high school shop class that is doing the work? Not sure who else would take on a job like this for pennies on the dollar of what the job will really cost.

Ed, what do you think the job should really cost? It takes me a few hours to remove a cradle and pull the engine off in a 84-86 2.5 Fiero. Its a job that I don't mind doing, and am happy to do for the equivalent of $20/hr. As far as installation costs, I have itemized the cost of consumables separately, and I can comfortably pop a cradle in and have an engine running in 5 hours.

I am an out of work engineer, and if I wasn't doing something to keep busy and help others out, I'd just be sitting on my butt eating Cheetos and surfing CareerBuilder.com, waiting for my next unemployment check to come.

If it appeals to your sensibilities, however, you can bring me your car and I can charge you much more to do the same job.

Sincerely,
Your local High School Shop Class

That is pretty dang reasonable I must say. Having done it myself but with less knowhow and a lot more time I would say Kurt is offering a fellow enthusiast an awesome and gentlemanly deal!

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84 Duke, Holley TBI, Manual Trans 4.10, CompuCam, White

I agree that Kurt's prices are very much in line. On the other hand, for even cheaper, I'll bet he can find a cheap running V6 car and swap the cradles. That would be very easy to do as long as the trannys were the same. You could upgrade your power, keep it "stock" for future mechanical work, and save money on the whole deal. Of course you wouldn't have the peace of mind of basically having a new engine and you would lose out in the MPG department but you said you did want to increase power.

Kurt could also make some extra bucks selling other parts off of the donor car since you probably wouldn't want it sitting at your house. Kinda win-win if you ask me.

Jonathan

I couldn't agree more. I would MUCH rather give monies that I had intended to spend on this project to someone who is out of work and, in my opinion, extremely capable of performing the task at hand - even if he is a little ways away from me. I am sure that if any of you were in his shoes you would encourage and welcome an opportunity of this nature. Busy hands are happy hands. :-)

I'm sure that KurtAKX will do a fine job for you, he's got plenty of experience with 4-bangers over the years. Should you decide not to go the rebuilding route, you should check out the pricing on Marshal remanufactured long blocks on rockauto.com. Current pricing is $1,040 + core and freight for an 85/86 Duke. I did that a couple of years ago, worked out well for me.