they sure are pretty

I have a 94 block so it should have the same bolt holes for the lower case/manifold you mentioned, correct? If so, will 98 heads fit the block?

[This message has been edited by Erik (edited 05-05-2009).]

Yep... too bad I have to close them up inside an engine.

Not sure if the '94 case half would have the same holes or not. I know '95 doesn't. Pull the pan and check it out.

'98 heads will fit. Any FWD head will bolt onto any '99 and older block. The '99 and older heads should not be used with Y2K and newer pistons because those pistons do not have valve reliefs.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 05-05-2009).]

well, I don't want to take it apart just yet, I want to run it for a season and then this winter I will check it out. Is that a stock crank other than being blueprinted?

It's a stock crank that's had the journals cut .010 and had balance material removed via turning rather than drilling.

quote Originally posted by Will: It's a stock crank that's had the journals cut .010 and had balance material removed via turning rather than drilling.

glad to hear you can get oversize bearings ..I take it the piston is oversize as well

Chuckle... I had this discussion with Alltrbo when we were building his 350... bearings are UNDERsized

The pistons are .008 over. Since they were custom cut, I could get them whatever size I wanted. The bores cleaned up from the previous botched hone job at 3.670.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 05-06-2009).]

quote Originally posted by Will: Chuckle... I had this discussion with Alltrbo when we were building his 350... bearings are UNDERsized The pistons are .008 over. Since they were custom cut, I could get them whatever size I wanted. The bores cleaned up from the previous botched hone job at 3.670.

I knew you would say the bearings were undersized

I recall you having problems getting the cylinders honed properly. Did they actually bore out the cylinders? If so did they use the standard cutting tool?

If I don't have to spend the $200 right now, why should I?

I was having issues with the Northstar hone because it's not a Chevy. The Northstars have very hard very high quality iron in the bore liners. This means that a silicon carbide stone that's normally used to hone softer Chevy blocks won't hone a Northstar bore... it'll just polish it. Northstars need to be honed with aluminum oxide stones. The initial bad hone job was done that way. The second hone job looked good, but I never ran it. I got the third and current/final(?) hone job done so that the bore would better match the rings that Total Seal had available in my bore size.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 05-06-2009).]

I had just snugged the short block together the first time so that I could get a timely measurement of deck height. I couldn't do the final torquing and sealing because I still had to replace a couple of rod bolts. The shop overtorqued/overstretched them when checking the bearing ID. The rod bolts arrived last Friday while I was closing on the house. I installed today and put final stretch of .0055 on all rod bolts. All bolts had ARP assembly lube applied to the threads and under the heads beforehand.

The lower case half must be removed to torque rod bolts because you can't put a stretch gauge on one bolt from every rod with the case half in place.
I dug out my new in the bag case half seals. I had to look for my rear main seal for a while, but I did find it. The book calls for a dab of RTV at each end of each case seal. Two of these join the case seals to the rear main, and the other two join them to the front cover seal.
I have no idea what's wrong with the design, but apparently the only entity that can put together a Northstar without sealant between the case halves is GM's assembly line. I've heard from all directions to run a bead of Loctite 518 (same as used between the Getrag case halves) both inside AND outside the case seals... so I did. McMaster-Carr carries 50 ml tubes of the stuff for about 1/4 of what GM wants. Summit carries it for about half of what McMaster-Carr wants.
I didn't technically "need" to, but I used ARP assembly lube on the threads and under the heads of the main bolts.
The main bolts take 15 ftlbs + 65 degrees in the sequence pictured in the FSM. What GM doesn't make clear is whether they expect this to be "per bolt" or "per pass". IE, should I tighten each bolt to 15 ftlbs and then turn it 65 degrees, or should I tighten all bolts in sequence to 15 ftlbs, then turn them all 65 degrees. I chose the latter.

I'm glad I did.
Lesson learned: religiously RE-check the 15 ftlb pre-load torque for ALL main fasteners immediately prior to applying the 65 degree final load.
In following the book's sequence for the main bolts, you tighten the outer rows, then the inner rows. If you then go back over the outer rows, they will have ALL relaxed to some extent as the inner rows were tightened. If you turn the bolt next to it 65 degrees, any given bolt will also relax slightly. The last step before applying the 65 degree twist to ANY main bolt should be to re-check that it is holding 15 ftlbs.

Will,
Maybe you should find a real machine shop and save yourself some money and time, because it sounds like you have had nothing but poor work done so far.....

Maybe you should find me a "real" machine shop that knows the Northstar inside and out well enough that I can turn them loose and don't need to look over their shoulders... Oh yeah, I have to be able to afford their work also.

Northstar's just a tough engine to build. I also thought it was odd that the bolts would be overtorqued, but the sheet that Eagle sent me with the replacement rod bolts listed the stretch specs for several different types of ARP bolts. The 3/8" ARP 2000 bolts in the Northstar rods get tightened to 43 ftlbs and stretch .0055. The 7/16" L-19 rod bolts used presumably in BBC rods get tightened to 78 ftlbs and stretch .0077. Many rod bolts have stretch specs between .006 and .007. It's an understandable mistake than only very specific knowledge of the application could prevent.

Got shipping confirmation on the head gaskets, so I should get them tomorrow.

Got one of the heads apart and run through the parts/dish washer. I should be able to do the other one tonight and then run them both through again with the exhaust sides down. The exhaust sides of the heads are incredibly oily thanks to the issues I had with the first build.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 05-11-2009).]

Will,

It has been my experience that a good machine shop will have a proprietor that has a degree as a machinist, there is a lot more to it than learning to run a mill or a lathe, there is also a lot of metallurgy that goes along with one of these degrees. A well trained machinist should have recognized when his tools are wearing excessively for a given job, not because he’s worried about you, because he has to pay to replace that expensive tool he’s wearing out on your block.
It looks like you are trying to do a meticulous job on your engine, and I know that a precision assembly on a stock engine yields big gains in reliability as well as HP and knowing you Will, I would have thought you would have been absolutely livid after they screwed up the fist time and found someone else to do the work.
I am enjoying seeing you wrestle with this project, and I will keep tuned in.

quote Originally posted by Will: ........... I didn't technically "need" to, but I used ARP assembly lube on the threads and under the heads of the main bolts. The main bolts take 15 ftlbs + 65 degrees in the sequence pictured in the FSM. What GM doesn't make clear is whether they expect this to be "per bolt" or "per pass". IE, should I tighten each bolt to 15 ftlbs and then turn it 65 degrees, or should I tighten all bolts in sequence to 15 ftlbs, then turn them all 65 degrees. I chose the latter. I'm glad I did. Lesson learned: religiously RE-check the 15 ftlb pre-load torque for ALL main fasteners immediately prior to applying the 65 degree final load. In following the book's sequence for the main bolts, you tighten the outer rows, then the inner rows. If you then go back over the outer rows, they will have ALL relaxed to some extent as the inner rows were tightened. If you turn the bolt next to it 65 degrees, any given bolt will also relax slightly. The last step before applying the 65 degree twist to ANY main bolt should be to re-check that it is holding 15 ftlbs.

IIRC, when doing arp fasteners, without the guage, they want you to tighten and loosen 3x, and the instructions state that for one thing it is to even out and force out excess lube. I never researched if that is a big factor tho, I just followed the instructions, as they do know what the design point is for their studs/bolts.
Sounds like you did the right thing on the mains, last motor I did that had tty bolts/studs I went round and rechecked the initial torque about 5 times, the last time I actually took a short break before going back to it and degreeing them in. That is one of the biggest issues with aluminum/alloy blocks, so your time there is well spent. Personally I don't like tty, but with the expansion factors of these materials, I understand it is the only way to maintain proper spec. besides, what's another tool in the box.... I have so many obscure ones already...

Torque + Angle is NOT Torque To Yield

15 ftlbs + 65 degrees on a 5 inch long bolt is T+A.
15 ftlbs + 120 degrees on a 1.5 inch bolt is TTY.
The first is a N* main bolt, the second is a factory N* rod bolt

Everything I've read about consistent torque of rod bolts has to do with making sure that a given torque equates to a desired stretch. If you're measuring stretch directly, it all goes out the window. The lube is only necessary to reduce friction and make it easier to pull on the wrench to get the stretch you want.

Will,

I get where you are going with the rod bolt stretch measurement, but I have some questions, if you are going by stretch measurements alone then how can you properly load the bearing? What I mean is that the rod and cap need a specific torque range to ensure that the hole stays round, too much torque and the journal becomes egg shaped horizontally and not enough the journal becomes egg shaped vertically. How did you come up with the stretch measurement?
Did you buy some extra rod bolts and torque them to the desired ftlbs and measure the stretch of the bolt and then used that measurement to stretch the others to the desired measurement? Or is there an ARP chart for the bolts that you bought to convert stretch into a torque value?
The lubrication of every nut and bolt that receives a torque spec is a must, this is so critical according to multiple manuals I own that if it is forgotten that the engine component in question must be taken apart and re-assembled, they also state that torque and stretch specs should be reduced by 10% when using a mulisulfide lube and 5% for machine oil.
I will be performing similar measurements in the near future and I am curious to see how this all comes out. Keep up the Hard work..

This is informative. It would seem that the manufacturer needs to say how many thousandths to stretch the bolt

http://www.carcraft.com/tec...tch_tool/index1.html

[This message has been edited by sanderson (edited 05-12-2009).]

Stretch is the PRIMARY indicator of clamp load. All bolts are springs with a spring rate of Young's Modulus.

Torque is simply a WAG at bolt stretch and for torque to accurately indicate bolt stretch, a whole lot of domino(e)s have to be lined up: correct number of torque cycles, burnished threads, correct lubricant, calibrated precision torque wrench, etc. I simply bought a stretch gauge and bypassed all of that.

One thing I didn't do is mic each rod bolt for my quality records.

This has bolt stretch for various ARP bolts

http://www.arp-bolts.com/Tech/TechTorque.html

!@#$

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 05-12-2009).]

No disagreement here. We stretch bolts all the time in the oil refinery to get consistent clamping loads. It's the method of choice for high pressure and large rotating equipment.

Head gaskets arrived today. I was advised on CHRF's Northstar forum to use head studs, which for an idiotic reason I didn't get ordered today... I'll have to wait until Thursday to torque the heads down. I'll set the heads in place, hang them with a couple of snug bolts and build the timing drive, seal up the bottom end/front cover and install flywheel/clutch tomorrow (@$$uming I can find my stash of 12.9 flywheel bolts). Thursday I'll see about getting the trans apart and the 3.94 gears installed. I already have a great grip and the short 2nd and 4th in it. I'll also have to find my stash of 12.9 ring gear bolts.

quote Originally posted by Will: Head gaskets arrived today. I was advised on CHRF's Northstar forum to use head studs, which for an idiotic reason I didn't get ordered today... I'll have to wait until Thursday to torque the heads down. I'll set the heads in place, hang them with a couple of snug bolts and build the timing drive, seal up the bottom end/front cover and install flywheel/clutch tomorrow (@$$uming I can find my stash of 12.9 flywheel bolts). Thursday I'll see about getting the trans apart and the 3.94 gears installed. I already have a great grip and the short 2nd and 4th in it. I'll also have to find my stash of 12.9 ring gear bolts.

Got any spare flywheel bolts that would work on a spec AL flywheel? What is the reason Alan gave for using headstuds? I used them on my rodeck and never had a problem blowing gaskets with 800hp ( boosted ) on tap

Even if I can't find my stash, I'll have bolts. I ordered a box of 50 from Lawson. I'll mail you a set.

quote Originally posted by Will: Even if I can't find my stash, I'll have bolts. I ordered a box of 50 from Lawson. I'll mail you a set.

Thanks Will , I'll PM you with my address. Let me know how you want payment sent

[This message has been edited by Erik (edited 05-13-2009).]

It was slipping at high RPM. It didn't have enough wrap on the crank pulley.

quote Originally posted by Scoobysruvenge: I get where you are going with the rod bolt stretch measurement, but I have some questions, if you are going by stretch measurements alone then how can you properly load the bearing? What I mean is that the rod and cap need a specific torque range to ensure that the hole stays round, too much torque and the journal becomes egg shaped horizontally and not enough the journal becomes egg shaped vertically. How did you come up with the stretch measurement?

I know it's right because *I* measured it. The exact procedures the shop uses are not always relevant when you go back and double-check what they did. I measured the bearing ID's at the proper bolt stretch and measured the journals and figured clearances myself. The clearances came out a little bit on the wide side, but nothing worth halting the build for another year to get perfect. No matter how perfect you want it to be, at some point you just have to build the damn thing.

If the shop sends me parts that aren't to spec, that's their fault. If I bolt those parts together into an engine that can't do anything but blow up, that would be *MY* fault. Any ignorance of whether the part is in spec or out is willful.

The shop I used sets up the Enfantis Brothers' 2JZ-GTE Supra engines. That's 1600+ HP from a factory 300 HP engine. He knows his Shtuff. He figured out that they could more than quadruple the life of their main bearings by following a torque procedure with the engine mount brackets...

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 05-14-2009).]

quote Originally posted by Will: Head studs are also here. Alan Johnson recommended installing studs at 70 ftlbs, so I'll do that. I should be able to screw the heads on this afternoon, then clean the cams/lifters and build the valvetrain tonight. Accusump and EPC valve are here, and I already had the oil/coolant heat exchanger.

Will,

This sounds like he's saying to torque the studs into the block before installing heads. That would be strange.

Here's a quote from ARP site.

"Studs also provide more accurate and consistent torque loading. Here's why. When you use bolts to secure the head, the fastener is actually being "twisted" while it's being torqued to the proper reading. Accordingly, the bolt is reacting to two different forces simultaneously. A stud should be installed in a "relaxed" mode - never crank it in tightly using a jammed nut.

If everything is right, the stud should be installed finger tight. Then, when applying torque to the nut, the stud will stretch only on the vertical axis. Remember, an undercut shorter stud will have a rate similar to a longer, standard shank stud. This provides a more even clamping force on the head. Because the head gasket will compress upon initial torquing, make sure studs and bolts are re-torqued after the engine has been run."

[This message has been edited by sanderson (edited 05-14-2009).]

Obviously the only torque spec involved in installing a head stud is on the nut...

Also, the only legit way to turn the stud is with a 3/16" socket in the top, which won't even dream of taking 70 ftlbs.

Won't get the engine in the car this weekend. Other time pressures are being applied (fly out to CA on Sunday for 3 weeks of Navy training, followed by a week in NM). I'll get the valvetrain built, timing drive assembled and front and cam covers installed tonight... maybe even the oil pan. It would be nice to get the engine buttoned up.

However, I won't get it in the car this weekend. I have a few other things I need to fix tomorrow and I'm getting a little burned out on this. I'll be back on the east coast for two weeks in the middle of June and will get it back on the road then.

quote Originally posted by Will: A far as spark plugs go, I'm thinking of going 1-2 ranges colder than stock, due to the compression. Anybody know how I look up what plug that is?

I like NGKs, so I'll give you their info:

http://www.ngksparkplugs.co...ch/partnumberkey.pdf

I looked up plugs for a '95 STS and NGK says to use a TR55GP (platinum) or TR55IX (iridium). Doing a search on Rock Auto's site for NGK part number "TR*" it looks like you can go a bit colder (assume 55 is 5.5?) to a TR6IX (or TR6GP) or TR7IX to go one or two ranges colder, respectively. It might be worth your while to get one stock type (TR55xx) or go to a store that has them in stock to compare the two and make sure they are duplicates except for the electrode insulation.

Most of the companies have a similar part number guide if you prefer another brand.

Bryce

This may be of some use, there are more charts than the one linked (I found this to cross-reference my 750 Turbo's plugs).

http://www.clubplug.net/denso_ngk.html

P.S. Will is in CA now as mentioned, he probably won't be posting here much for a few weeks, though he does have internet access. *shrug*

Cool. Thanks both of you.